View Poll Results: Rate This Episode

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  • 10 - Restored My Faith In This Series

    7 33.33%
  • 9

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  • 8

    1 4.76%
  • 7

    5 23.81%
  • 6

    4 19.05%
  • 5

    2 9.52%
  • 4

    1 4.76%
  • 3

    1 4.76%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Whats Dead Should Be Left Dead

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  1. #31
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Agreed on this. Especially the whole 'she knows how to count cards, grew up in Vegas, but doesn't know a poker term' bit. When one calls back to 1x21, when she went into the underground casino, its ridiculous writing. But honestly, at this point, we can assume that the writers don't even know their own story anymore beyond the flashbacks.
    And now on Tumblr this was MG's response:


    Question: I'm really loving the scenes with Felicity and Curtis Holt, they are so much fun!! One question though, Felicity knows how to play poker clearly, why did she get tripped up on her cover story? (It's pretty funny watching her give just as awful excuses to Curtis as Oliver did to her in season 1 though)
    MG: She was flustered. She doesnít lie often.

  2. #32
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Another head scratcher:



    robinthesidekick asked:

    Drama again at the expense of Laurel's character. She is never going to be written to be in the right is she?



    MG: She brought her sister back from the dead. Iím having a difficult time figuring out how she could possibly be MORE in the right
    Clueless

  3. #33
    Settling In Gintoki's Avatar
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    Oh boy, another fantastic episode. The writers have stepped their game up, and this season is epic so far. It has potential to be good as Season 2. This season of Arrow, is so much better than the Flash, surprisingly, and i can't wait for the next episode.

    The complaints in this thread are so laughable. I'm seeing positive things about this episode, on the other sites.
    Last edited by Gintoki; 10-23-2015 at 12:45 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    That's why I mentioned the never ending bullets, her gun didn't run out of bullets therefore he couldn't wait until she ran out, cause the TV version wouldn't. So it made sense for DD to take a hike. Dude is also an expert in ripping tattoos off his body and throwing them, not how long it takes to go through bullets. So yes, its a TV gun. That was my point to why he left. The comment about why they didn't bring them in the field was sarcasm but I should have used an emoticon to make that clear.

    As for the Kevlar thing, it's still less painful than on the Flash where they used a cold gun to first freeze laser beams into something solid and then break them so they wouldn't trip the alarm.

    I'm perfectly happy fanwanking that his suit does have those ceramic plates (or the Cisco equivalent) and that Oliver stopped listening to the details past "will stop bullets and knives"
    I can buy that Oliver's Kevlar is able to stop sharp edged weapons, I was willing to buy Kingpin's and Daredevil's "armor" without question. I pointed it out as to how Hollywood in general has very little knowledge about what truly can and cannot be done with modern warfare equipment and how effective the stuff is. Guns in general are trivialized in comics (even Punisher is unable to actually kill supervillains with guns most of the time) and seeing Double Down is a "supervillain" Felicity firing a submachinegun at him was more akin to somebody threatening a skilled fighter with a sharp spoon.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    When I complain about people complaining that Felicity should keep in her place, it is stuff like this that comes to mind. This is actually a problem? Seriously? She' been activating stuff remotely since early on. Blame the stunt team for wanting to mix things up if you want but there is no reason to think that if motorcycles can fly and humans can just yank teeth out that Felicity could not remotely operate the crane. It must be a thing because this isn't even the first time I've seen it done on a show. It's such a odd thing to complain about. She's helping too much? What? It's not like there will be cranes at most locations where the team is fighting. Although people plotzed when she shut a door last season as well.

    But neither Oliver or Diggle thought of themselves as Team Arrow or even Team Hood or Team Vigilante. That came up when Roy was introduced and she admitted she called them that sometimes. They can't be Original Team Arrow if Felicity is the one that coined the term about her, Diggle and Oliver.
    I don't believe that it's really singular incidents that are upsetting many of us but rather the compounding of incidents. As I said Felicity seemed to be able to do nothing wrong but everyone else on the show was making questionable choices so that even when what she did was good (sitting Oliver and Diggle down to resolve their differences for example) it comes over as simple propping of her character instead of a deserved moment to shine for her.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It depends on how each fan interprets things, but I consider Sara and Roy as members of the team since the early days of season 2 because Oliver brought them into the fray (Sara helped with the Mayor in Crucible and Roy started helping with intel in Identity). Even if they weren't members of the team all the time, at least one of them was when the other was missing. Imo it was just Oliver, Diggle and Felicity from episode 14 of season 1 until episode 2 or 3 of season 2. So if we look at the history of the team in numbers, it was just 2 members for roughly 11 episodes, 3 members for 11-12 episodes and over 3 members for the rest of the series. I fail to see what's so special about the "OTA", as the show itself established it.

    But again, the mileage of each fan varies and I never had an issue with anyone considering Oliver, Diggle and Felicity as the original team. What bothers me is the show taking a clear stance on such a devisive matter and not even being subtle about it. By referring to the "OTA" 4-5 different times, it felt like an attempt to poke fun at those who disagree with the term.
    The beef that MANY non-shipper fans/Laurel fans has with the term "Original Team Arrow" is not only that it is inaccurate with regards to the actual show history, but that in most cases it is thinly veiled hate-speak/code for "we don't want Laurel on the team", or "the REAL, SPECIAL Team Arrow is the Holy Trinity of Oliver/Diggle/Felicity, and Laurel is just a less worthy and essentially useless imposter". Anyone who has spent some time on twitter and tumblr knows this, and they also know that the biggest online OTA/Og3 supporters are some of the worst Laurel/Katie Cassidy haters on the Internet.

    These people have elevated a constellation that only existed for a limited number of episodes to the very ESSENCE of "Arrow", relegating everyone else to unimportant bit players, who might as well leave the show. Many OTA apologists include/accept Thea on the team (just like they included Sara once she was not a threat to their ship), but exclude Laurel in their twitter messages and tumblr posts. They even cut out/photoshop away Laurel from Team Arrow scenes. This idea that O/F/D have a special relationship, that the rest of the team is not privy to becomes apparent in all the salty comments whenever Laurel shares an emotional scene with Diggle, when people complain that Diggle should be talking to his REAL friend Felicity. These people seem to forget that Laurel and Diggle has fought crime together for six months, while Felicity left the team to be domestically happy with Oliver!

    So, all this social media talk about the supposedly "Original Team" in the Olicity fandom is not an innocent celebration of a constellation they love. If it were, they wouldn't spam the producers timelines with praises for OTA and requests for more OTA scenes. To me it feels like they want to pressure the producers/writers to emphasize that the O/F/D constellation IS indeed special, and that Thea and Laurel are second-rate members who should be kept out of the loop, so that they can get their precious "OTA scenes".

    So, when the writers include THREE pretty gratuitous mentions of the hallowed Holy Trinity in the actual script, it doesn't sit well with those of us who feel that "Arrow" is an ensemble superhero show, rather than the Felicity/Olicity/OTA show that some Oliciters wish it were. It is as if the writers are acknowledging this very narrow and skewed conception of what "Arrow" is about, while neglecting the hidden hate behind the incessant OTA campaigning. I mean, Guggenheim and company must be well aware of the anti-Laurel campaigning by now, and I think it is dishonest and even detrimental that they decided to pander to this part of the fandom despite this. The "Arrow" fandom is toxic enough without them taking sides and favoring a specific fanbase and their conception of the show. THAT is the reason why so many fans were p**ssed off with these shout outs to the "Original Team", and not its factual inaccuracy.
    Last edited by evaba; 10-23-2015 at 03:08 AM.

  7. #37
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    The beef that MANY non-shipper fans/Laurel fans has with the term "Original Team Arrow" is not only that it is inaccurate with regards to the actual show history, but that in most cases it is thinly veiled hate-speak/code for "we don't want Laurel on the team", or "the REAL, SPECIAL Team Arrow is the Holy Trinity of Oliver/Diggle/Felicity, and Laurel is just a less worthy and essentially useless imposter". Anyone who has spent some time on twitter and tumblr knows this, and they also know that the biggest online OTA/Og3 supporters are some of the worst Laurel/Katie Cassidy haters on the Internet.

    These people have elevated a constellation that only existed for a limited number of episodes to the very ESSENCE of "Arrow", relegating everyone else to unimportant bit players, who might as well leave the show. Many OTA apologists include/accept Thea on the team (just like they included Sara once she was not a threat to their ship), but exclude Laurel in their twitter messages and tumblr posts. They even cut out/photoshop away Laurel from Team Arrow scenes. This idea that O/F/D have a special relationship, that the rest of the team is not privy to becomes apparent in all the salty comments whenever Laurel shares an emotional scene with Diggle, when people complain that Diggle should be talking to his REAL friend Felicity. These people seem to forget that Laurel and Diggle has fought crime together for six months, while Felicity left the team to be domestically happy with Oliver!

    So, all this social media talk about the supposedly "Original Team" in the Olicity fandom is not an innocent celebration of a constellation they love. If it were, they wouldn't spam the producers timelines with praises for OTA and requests for more OTA scenes. To me it feels like they want to pressure the producers/writers to emphasize that the O/F/D constellation IS indeed special, and that Thea and Laurel are second-rate members who should be kept out of the loop, so that they can get their precious "OTA scenes".

    So, when the writers include THREE pretty gratuitous mentions of the hallowed Holy Trinity in the actual script, it doesn't sit well with those of us who feel that "Arrow" is an ensemble superhero show, rather than the Felicity/Olicity/OTA show that some Oliciters wish it were. It is as if the writers are acknowledging this very narrow and skewed conception of what "Arrow" is about, while neglecting the hidden hate behind the incessant OTA campaigning. I mean, Guggenheim and company must be well aware of the anti-Laurel campaigning by now, and I think it is dishonest and even detrimental that they decided to pander to this part of the fandom despite this. The "Arrow" fandom is toxic enough without them taking sides and favoring a specific fanbase and their conception of the show. THAT is the reason why so many fans were p**ssed off with these shout outs to the "Original Team", and not its factual inaccuracy.
    Laurel needs her own 'original team' to go off with. Maybe she and Thea can go hang out with Barbara Gordon (played by Brie Larson) for a while. I don't disagree with what you're saying is what... I'm saying.

    God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life!

  8. #38
    Black Canary dreamsofnever's Avatar
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    Well said, Evaba! And totally agree, Dagenspear. At this point, if the writers and fans are so in love with the "Original Team Arrow' concept, then I wish they would give Laurel and Thea the chance to head elsewhere. Whether to the Flash/Central City or to join the Legends crew.

    As for my review of this episode, it is probably one of my least favorite episodes of the series. The only good that came out of it was Nyssa destroying the Lazarus Pit. Nyssa in general was the strongest part of the episode in my opinion.

    Focusing on the Nanda Parbat section of the episode, I was disappointed that both Thea and Laurel seemed to know that Malcolm was the new R'as. I'm glad that Oliver told them, but I feel like we as an audience were cheated out of their reactions. I don't believe that either Laurel or Thea would have been all that happy that Oliver chose to give the League over to Malcolm. And if they were, well that's just ridiculously out of character. For the record, I don't agree with Laurel bringing Sara back from the dead because I think that messing with things like that never turns out well. And anyone who has ever read Pet Cemetery knows that trying to get a person you've lost back is not a good idea. However, I think that it's very HUMAN to want to grasp at any chance to get a loved one back and I think that Laurel's decision was made out of love for her sister. That said, this episode did not do a very good job of portraying it that way. Having every single character tell Laurel that it was a bad idea was a great way to give more fuel to those who want to hate Laurel and blame her for every single thing that they dislike in the show. And Malcolm setting Thea up to give into her bloodlust was in character for Malcolm, but it again makes me wonder why the heroes haven't tried to take him down permanently and/or have him locked away in the prison on Lian Yu.

    And onto the OTA section of the episode. First of all, Felicity came off as an elitist jerk by being so excited at having the 'original team' back together. I can only imagine that she just wants to be the only woman on the team and thus wants to feel 'special' because of such. It didn't do her character any favors to have her be the only one who was super excited that Laurel and Thea were gone. And while I didn't mind her yelling at Oliver and Diggle to work out their problems, I think that Oliver gave up WAY too easily on Diggle and Felicity being the catalyst to get them to work through things is yet another example of this season showing an Oliver who is passive and only does things when his girlfriend tells him to. That's not a hero that I can root for.

    Felicity firing that machine gun with her eyes closed and managing to scare off Double Down was the height of ridiculousness, but that's a topic that others have already touched on so we'll leave it at that.

    I do like Curtis, but I'm sorely disappointed that the Arrow team has taken yet another character that is supposed to be one of the smartest in the DC verse and they've dumbed them down to make Felicity look good. Mr. Terrific is literally supposed to be one of the smartest if not THE smartest character in the DC verse. Bruce Wayne has even admitted that he's smarter than him. And Mr. Terrific (not Curtis Holt, because Curtis is technically an amalgam of the two characters who have held that title as well as containing original elements) is a successful CEO himself. I would much rather see him take initiative and do some sort of hostile takeover of Palmer Tech so the company can have a competent CEO. Instead, we're getting someone who is just there to tell us how great and heroic and badass Felicity is. Yawn.

  9. #39
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    If they send Laurel and Thea to another show I wouldn't really have a reason to watch Arrow anymore.

    Maybe they can create a team of Laurel, Thea, Helena and maybe have them meet Barbara Gordon and form "Birds of Prey" create a new Spin-off though CW said no more DC shows currently.

  10. #40
    Black Canary dreamsofnever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    If they send Laurel and Thea to another show I wouldn't really have a reason to watch Arrow anymore.

    Maybe they can create a team of Laurel, Thea, and Helena and maybe have them meet Barbara Gordon and form "Birds of Prey" create a new Spin-off though CW said no more DC shows currently.
    That would be the beauty of it! And I would be so happy if we got an actual Birds of Prey spinoff. I would much rather have that than the Olicity diaries.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    If they send Laurel and Thea to another show I wouldn't really have a reason to watch Arrow anymore.

    Maybe they can create a team of Laurel, Thea, Helena and maybe have them meet Barbara Gordon and form "Birds of Prey" create a new Spin-off though CW said no more DC shows currently.
    I would love this show.

  12. #42
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    I hate to say it, but I think this show has gone off the rails.

    I like the flashbacks. I like the various things going on with Thea, Laurel, Nyssa, Malcolm. Probably Quentin too, but he wasn't here this time. Yeah, I know Laurel and Thea make questionable decisions, but so what? Especially Thea, it's part of her character.

    What they have done with Ollie and Diggle is a joke. These used to be decisive men who had missions and did not need to be scolded into doing the right thing.

    It's really becoming more like Felicity and Friends.

    At least the fight scenes are still pretty good. Except for when Double Down gets beat by Felicity and some IT guy.

  13. #43
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    If the communication devices that Curtis created spontaneously explode why didn't they throw a couple a Double Down instead of having Felicity fire a gun and randomly hitting him?

    That would've been more believable. I didn't mention it earlier because I just thought of it.

  14. #44
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    If the communication devices that Curtis created spontaneously explode why didn't they throw a couple a Double Down instead of having Felicity fire a gun and randomly hitting him?

    That would've been more believable. I didn't mention it earlier because I just thought of it.
    Sadly, they randomly explode, so they might not do anything when thrown.

  15. #45
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post

    So, all this social media talk about the supposedly "Original Team" in the Olicity fandom is not an innocent celebration of a constellation they love. If it were, they wouldn't spam the producers timelines with praises for OTA and requests for more OTA scenes. To me it feels like they want to pressure the producers/writers to emphasize that the O/F/D constellation IS indeed special, and that Thea and Laurel are second-rate members who should be kept out of the loop, so that they can get their precious "OTA scenes".

    So, when the writers include THREE pretty gratuitous mentions of the hallowed Holy Trinity in the actual script, it doesn't sit well with those of us who feel that "Arrow" is an ensemble superhero show, rather than the Felicity/Olicity/OTA show that some Oliciters wish it were. It is as if the writers are acknowledging this very narrow and skewed conception of what "Arrow" is about, while neglecting the hidden hate behind the incessant OTA campaigning. I mean, Guggenheim and company must be well aware of the anti-Laurel campaigning by now, and I think it is dishonest and even detrimental that they decided to pander to this part of the fandom despite this. The "Arrow" fandom is toxic enough without them taking sides and favoring a specific fanbase and their conception of the show. THAT is the reason why so many fans were p**ssed off with these shout outs to the "Original Team", and not its factual inaccuracy.
    It's not so cut and dry. Talk of the OTA first happened when Sara joined the team. We had one balanced but rather condescending episode in Time of Death and then a string of episodes that abandoned the dynamic that the team had had for about a year at that point. It became Oliver and Sara going and doing and talking and discussing and Diggle and Felicity were ignored. I loved Sara but she was taking over the show. She was in all the flashbacks and all the present day scenes and she was filling Diggles role as back up and advisor and Felicity's as bringing of info and pep talker. F&D were getting super low screen time, weren't part of scenes they normally would have been included in, and Oliver acting out of character with them. And the scenes they were in often were unbalanced, like the writers didn't know how to handle that many voices.

    A cry went up that the OTA dynamic was extremely missed. Ratings did start to go down. Reviews became more critical. What I'd loved about the show was missing for a good chunk of time in the back half of season two. The turn around came finally just a few episodes before the end of the season. Oliver said it started with the three of them and it was time to get back to that. It was like a message straight from TPTB, that yes, they'd heard us!

    And the show had a fantastic final run of episodes in season two. Then in season three they put this strain between Oliver and Felicity and really also between Felicity and Diggle since he seemed to pick Team Oliver and she was left to have to go to Central City to find a friend to talk to.

    I'm sure there are those that use OTA as a code for anti Laurel but the out cry isn't about keeping others off the team, the out cry is to not neglect the relationships that were established during that year when it's was just Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity as partners.

    Take for example Diggle talking to Laurel about HIVE. It made sense why Dig was reluctant to tell Oliver and I could even understand why he wouldn't want to tell something t Felicity he wasn't comfortable with her sharing with Oliver but do you realize that Felicity didn't even get a smile from Diggle until this third episode? She comes back, has been helping, but hasn't seen her dear friend in five months, the one that the day before she left they'd "died" in each other's arms and Diggle doesn't speak to her or give her a hug or a smile or a I've missed you? In the second episode he even leaves her hanging when she tries to get a high five. And he looks annoyed. She keeps trying to be her same positive cheerful self and he ignores her at all time except for mission related stuff.

    Of course we're going to be upset that Felicity can't even get a friendly look but Laurel is let in on a secrecy Digs been keeping from his partners for two years. It's perfectly right that he'd tell Laurel but why also neglect the relationships that were established originally?

    I was begging even for in show acknowledgement that he was mad at Felicity too, anything to explain what I was seeing on screen that just wasn't making sense. He can be mad or not feeling connected but that's something I as a viewer need acknowledged because it deviates from what we last knew.

    And onto the OTA section of the episode. First of all, Felicity came off as an elitist jerk by being so excited at having the 'original team' back together. I can only imagine that she just wants to be the only woman on the team and thus wants to feel 'special' because of such. It didn't do her character any favors to have her be the only one who was super excited that Laurel and Thea were gone. And while I didn't mind her yelling at Oliver and Diggle to work out their problems, I think that Oliver gave up WAY too easily on Diggle and Felicity being the catalyst to get them to work through things is yet another example of this season showing an Oliver who is passive and only does things when his girlfriend tells him to. That's not a hero that I can root for.
    It wasn't about being super excited to be the only woman, please recall it was Felicity that insisted on Laurels acceptance on the team. And it was Felicity that set Oliver straight on Roy being allowed to talk to him in defense of Thea as he'd done.

    Felicity was super excited to see her two partners behaving normally for once and working together. It was like old times, you know when they all were best buds and completely trusted each other. She was trying to mend fences. As proved when she tried to get Diggle to go out for drinks like they'd done in the past.

    But Dig said no, Oliver gave up on trying to create openings and both of them the next day went on seperate missions, too stubborn to admit they needed help and both not only failed, but both almost died and so yeah, she smacked there heads together, and because she does have a special relationship with both of them they were at least willing to have an honest conversation. It wasn't about Oliver only trying because Felicity made him. He'd been trying again and again since he'd returned. Felicity's bigger achievement was getting Diggle to listen and open up. She forced them both to realize this was not something they could ignore.

    And after that, Diggle was wiling to start letting Oliver earn his trust back. And the repair in the rift between O&D, that was why she was so happy to have the three of them back together like before, like when there was no rift. So in show, that was what was going on.

    Out of show, while some use OTA as anti Laurel, a lot are anti OTA because they refuse to acknowledge that Oliver, Diggle and Felicity do have a special relationship. I don't care about the semantics of if Oliver and Dig were a team first or not but the team and how they efficiently handled their nightly duties jelled in a very specific way once they were a team. They went through a lot just the three of them before anyone else came along. They earned each other's trust and affection as a unit. They all had each other's back and it didn't come with out ups and downs. Even the notion that they were partners, not employees, was earned over time. They know each other better in the way that comes when you have been with someone longer.

    That doesn't mean new relationships are not added but the established ones shouldn't be dismissed as unimportant. Oliver has sooo much more time in with Diggle than with Laurel or Thea in the field. They are still having their ups and downs as teammates. (Obviously so was Diggle but that was a bigger issue than getting to know a person). They all trust each other but it can't be as well established since they don't know each other in that capacity as well as Oliver and Diggle do.

    For me the message from TPTB I got from all the Original Gangster or Team Arrow references was a promise not to forget the original relationships even as they are moving forward and adding more to the mix. It was a needed reassurance after all the manufactured strain of season three which has been still seeping through with Diggle's lack of trust. The first iteration of a real team up with multiple people does deserve status because they are the ones that pioneered how they all do this now.

    I personally think the show is much smoother when the team is united and the team is built on the foundation provided by Oliver, Diggle and Felicity.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 10-23-2015 at 01:28 PM.

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