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  • 10 - A delicous souffle

    13 43.33%
  • 9

    4 13.33%
  • 8

    5 16.67%
  • 7

    6 20.00%
  • 6

    1 3.33%
  • 5

    1 3.33%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - You have failed this omelette... err... city.

    0 0%
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  1. #46
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think the journey Ollie is going through this season, from realizing that his suburban bliss was not what he ultimately wants to claiming the GA identity with confidence (which he hasn't done yet), will be the key story arc and in my books really the only one that matters by season's end. I don't have a problem with Team Arrow members helping him along the way, as they should and Ollie would be a fool not to heed sound advice.

    My concern is that there's a fine line between nudging him to make good/wise choices -- and serving them on a platter where it wouldn't seem like he had the sense or wisdom to realize it. While he has made mistakes over the seasons, I'm hoping the writing doesn't "dumb" him down to the point (aka SV-style) where we're wondering if he's truly ready to claim his destiny without being led/yanked by the hand to it. Basically I want to see Ollie be able to say 'I am Green Arrow' and be credible in doing so -- it's not 'we are Green Arrow-by-Committee'.

    I can appreciate why some viewers have difficulty seeing how this Ollie -- the cul-de-sac jogging, omelette-conquering guy -- could become a GA right now by seemingly turning his back on the city and his team and just slip back into the same Arrow role and hope for the best. The rest of the team has evolved in the time he was away. While Ollie has out of necessity given his mind, body and heart some needed "me" time, he has been out of the loop re: how the team functions out in the field post-S3. Felicity, while she is more in the loop, has also not been there 24/7 -- so I'm expecting that they both have to adjust to how things roll with Team Diggle: let's be honest, that's what this team is until Ollie is back up to speed. This is uncharted territory for Ollie (but ironically, not for the team as they've had to adapt when he was thought dead), so I'm prepared to give him a few episodes to see how well or not he climbs out of his superhero-anxiety doldrums. In other words, he better do so!

    He may have the name GA, but this season will be Ollie proving his worth in the GA identity. There should be little doubt in the audience's mind by season's end on this. SV excuses -- "he's not ready yet, he's just learning, he's still evolving", or, worst case: "his heart is still mending!!!!" -- aren't going to cut it by S4's end. S4 is crunch time re: Ollie and the GA mantle. How well S4 fares should be judged on how successfully this is achieved.

    Laurel is more seasoned this year, Thea will be sorting out her Year One as Speedy (I did love that she found her new superhero experiences a thrill) ... and struggling with the Pit side-effects. It would be good to see Laurel, Diggle or both play some sort of mentoring. I will say the scene where Laurel saved the kid was probably high on the cheesy scale -- it reeked of the CW "cute"ness I can do without. The devil's advocate in me would say it was TPTB's clumsy attempt to show that people in SC are recognizing that BC is a superhero in her own right, but their intentions didn't pan out here. Minor nitpick for me, considering S4 is the Ollie-proving-his-worth season.

    I'm hoping Quentin doesn't grind the 'Oliver is a bad vigilante' axe too much. We get it -- he doesn't like vigilantes, esp. Ollie with the baggage he brings. Best before date approaching soon on this subplot. Luckily we have the Damien connection to distract him from excessive anti-Ollie grumbling.

    I'm fine with Damien being a purely evil antagonist. They approached this in the first half with Ra's a bit, and while he does have an element of at least having some intention of remaking society/the world it's his ruthless methods that set him against Ollie and Co. Unfortunately, he got the CW watered-down treatment in the second half. Malcolm's got too much baggage with all team members and an obvious vested interest in Thea's fate that would prevent him from being completely "evil" in the black-and-white sense. It would be good to see Ollie go toe-to-toe with someone with no vulnerabilities and no scruples. I'm hoping Damien lives up to this.

    One of my wishes for S4 -- that there would be no more SC attacks -- is pretty much out the window. I'm hoping they come up with something more inventive with Damien and his army as the season progresses because, magic or not, the 'ghosts' stuff could easily slip into familiar 'The city is under attack!!!' territory plot-wise from previous seasons.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 10-10-2015 at 07:50 PM.

  2. #47
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Sadly, I felt no empathy at all for Oliver, as he seemed to have totally put everyone (Thea, Diggle, Laurel, his city...) behind him and apparently never spared them any further thoughts, despite the fact that they were out fighting criminals and the city was falling apart.

    The thing weíve seen with Oliver is he goes all in. He hasnít learned balance. This was Oliver living in suburbia and totally immersing himself in the new life. So he closed his eyes and covered his ears and shouted la, la, la, I canít hear you and refused to worry about life back in Starling. He admits he misses helping and the sense of purpose but he doesnít feel he can fight the darkness without being the darkness and that demands too much. As Diggle told him in season one, it strips away pieces of his soul.

    So he finally got to an emotionally healthy enough place to accept that not only does he not want to be the darkness - cause it led him to doing some fairly unforgivable things - he doesn't have to be that guy anymore. More so, he felt he also couldn't be that guy. Raís took the Arrow away from him and no one can deny that he had put his time in. Five years in hell and three on a mission he thought he had to die for.


    I thought he'd found a calling when he was shipwrecked, but apparently not.....he was just playing a role for several years and now he was on to his next (3rd) role, rather than on the hero's journey I thought I was watching....
    Oliver for his first three years had not been following his calling. He was doing his duty. Following through on an debt his father laid on his shoulder to pay and an obligation to the memory of his friend to be more than just a killer. He was convinced that this was his life and that it would only lead to his death. He put on the mask because he felt he had to.

    Last season he realized he's not the only one that can fight the darkness and when he lost his identity as the Arrow - his way to be in the fight - he decided he was replaceable and that the city didn't need him and so he walked away, showing his faith in those that CHOSE to stay in the fight. That was about respecting their right to keep on fighting even as he realized he no longer had the will to do so. Not only could he not be the Arrow he didn't want to be him anymore.

    Why? Because he only knows how to fight the darkness by being the darkness (fighting fire with fire remains the more elegant metaphor) So his reluctance? His seeming indifference? It's not callousness, it's fear. It's self defense because he is afraid of becoming the monster that Lance accuses him of being that only begets more monsters.

    So I agree, this season will be about Oliver discovering that being out there behind the mask is his calling. No longer will it be reparation for past sins (his or his fathers) or guilt fueling his return or some kind of fatal rut he didn't know how to get out of. This time he'll get the chance to choose like the rest of the team did and find joy and satisfaction and inspiration in going out behind the mask.

    So I ask that you be kind in your judgment of Oliver's actions and reluctance to return. He was a very broken man and without repairing himself, he could never be the hero that can inspire hope and optimism in the whole city. Before he could mete out rough justice and even inspire copy cats to do the same, but could he spark that flame that moves the population in general to be better and do more on their own? Whatever it is they can do? In finding his calling as the Green Arrow, he can finally be that light that cancels out the darkness rather than making it grow.

  3. #48
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    So I ask that you be kind in your judgment of Oliver's actions and reluctance to return. He was a very broken man and without repairing himself, he could never be the hero that can inspire hope and optimism in the whole city. Before he could mete out rough justice and even inspire copy cats to do the same, but could he spark that flame that moves the population in general to be better and do more on their own? Whatever it is they can do? In finding his calling as the Green Arrow, he can finally be that light that cancels out the darkness rather than making it grow.
    If he couldn't before, he can't now. Nothing about him has changed in that regard. But his fear isn't an excuse.

    God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    The thing weíve seen with Oliver is he goes all in. He hasnít learned balance. This was Oliver living in suburbia and totally immersing himself in the new life. So he closed his eyes and covered his ears and shouted la, la, la, I canít hear you and refused to worry about life back in Starling. He admits he misses helping and the sense of purpose but he doesnít feel he can fight the darkness without being the darkness and that demands too much. As Diggle told him in season one, it strips away pieces of his soul.

    So he finally got to an emotionally healthy enough place to accept that not only does he not want to be the darkness - cause it led him to doing some fairly unforgivable things - he doesn't have to be that guy anymore. More so, he felt he also couldn't be that guy. Raís took the Arrow away from him and no one can deny that he had put his time in. Five years in hell and three on a mission he thought he had to die for.




    Oliver for his first three years had not been following his calling. He was doing his duty. Following through on an debt his father laid on his shoulder to pay and an obligation to the memory of his friend to be more than just a killer. He was convinced that this was his life and that it would only lead to his death. He put on the mask because he felt he had to.

    Last season he realized he's not the only one that can fight the darkness and when he lost his identity as the Arrow - his way to be in the fight - he decided he was replaceable and that the city didn't need him and so he walked away, showing his faith in those that CHOSE to stay in the fight. That was about respecting their right to keep on fighting even as he realized he no longer had the will to do so. Not only could he not be the Arrow he didn't want to be him anymore.

    Why? Because he only knows how to fight the darkness by being the darkness (fighting fire with fire remains the more elegant metaphor) So his reluctance? His seeming indifference? It's not callousness, it's fear. It's self defense because he is afraid of becoming the monster that Lance accuses him of being that only begets more monsters.

    So I agree, this season will be about Oliver discovering that being out there behind the mask is his calling. No longer will it be reparation for past sins (his or his fathers) or guilt fueling his return or some kind of fatal rut he didn't know how to get out of. This time he'll get the chance to choose like the rest of the team did and find joy and satisfaction and inspiration in going out behind the mask.

    So I ask that you be kind in your judgment of Oliver's actions and reluctance to return. He was a very broken man and without repairing himself, he could never be the hero that can inspire hope and optimism in the whole city. Before he could mete out rough justice and even inspire copy cats to do the same, but could he spark that flame that moves the population in general to be better and do more on their own? Whatever it is they can do? In finding his calling as the Green Arrow, he can finally be that light that cancels out the darkness rather than making it grow.
    Good points.

    In many ways our Oliver Queen in Arrow reminds me of Jason Bourne (both books and movies). He is walking a very narrow line between light and darkness and he does not do it out of choice but because he was and is forced into it.
    IMO because of this in some ways he is more a hero than the others of the team, more like, say, Sam and Frodo in The Lord of the Rings.

  5. #50
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Well, I believe Oliver's new mission is to get Felicity to marry him. So, really he does have a purpose. His sister and friend showing up, asking for his help, was very inconvenient, but all journeys/missions do involve overcoming roadblocks/obstacles.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    Good points.

    In many ways our Oliver Queen in Arrow reminds me of Jason Bourne (both books and movies). He is walking a very narrow line between light and darkness and he does not do it out of choice but because he was and is forced into it.
    IMO because of this in some ways he is more a hero than the others of the team, more like, say, Sam and Frodo in The Lord of the Rings.
    A thought to consider, in conjunction with this, is that that the heroes that stick with us are not those who were always going to be going down that path (if Oliver hadn't been shipwrecked, would he have even had an inkling to be anything but a careless playboy plowing through his trust fund?); it is the men and women who, while living an ordinary life, are thrust into extraordinary situations and rise to the challenge through perseverance, blood, and constantly struggling with who they are becoming. Oliver is doing all of these things on the show. Is it is a bit drawn out? Absolutely. That is why its called a drama.

  7. #52
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    I enjoyed the new season opening more than I expected, BUT (there always has to be "a but") as it was pointed out by many commenters before me - it's really hard to root for Oliver for lacks the sense of duty, does not care any more about Star(ling) City and is clearly forced to come back to his hero/vigilante role. Do they really trying to sell us that the character they introduced, fixated on mission save-my-city-right-my-father-wrongs would be able to find his fulfillment in baking souffles and preparing omelettes?! I must say that I'm rooting more for Felicity here, who admitted to support the team for time to time. Also, it's extremly hard to believe that Oliver always-mind-your-surrounding did not notice what his girlfriend is up to. It's not like learnt skills or phobias one has can be swith on or off at will. Also, did he really kicked out his own sister from her apartament? And Laurel too? Ollie, you jerk!

    Enjoyed the flashback (Waller! I like her Flarrow verse), especially that Ollie is back on the island. Liked also the mention about Walter. And wow, there was even around 30 seconds of brother-sister moment. Diggles scenes were good too, I enjoy seeing Lyla and John together (why I have an impression that this happy time is not going to last long?). Diggle and Oliver relationship can turn out interesting if it's not going to be neglected. I guess John will eventually forgive Ollie what he had done but will never fully able to forget. Got a feeling Laurel and Thea didn't have too much to do in this episode - I generally liked their scenes (Laurel-Quentin stuff is always good, I like the actors' dynamics), but unfortunatelly Willa Holland's archery didn't look too good. It's only a tv show, but up to this moment they were paying attention to show the archery properly.

    I'm on the fence about the costumes. Diggle's Magneto helmet looks unpratical as hell. The same with Green Arrow costume. His arms should be covered, to offer at least a minimal protection. Besides I'm a fan of the old costume and the original hood. And this bright colored fletching... Practical when one has to search for the arrows to collect them, but I guess I prefered the darker shade of green.

    Not sure if I'm happy what is happening with Lance and what they have for him in store this season. Seems he is on the straight path to his doom. And srsly, we have another evil organisation, whose agenda is to DESTROY the city. And Lance is so surprised that it involves killing people...

  8. #53
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    Good points.

    In many ways our Oliver Queen in Arrow reminds me of Jason Bourne (both books and movies). He is walking a very narrow line between light and darkness and he does not do it out of choice but because he was and is forced into it.
    IMO because of this in some ways he is more a hero than the others of the team, more like, say, Sam and Frodo in The Lord of the Rings.
    Agreed. Green Arrow is not Batman. He in the comics rarely every came close to the same all consuming driving force that compels every aspect of life to be about mission. The first three seasons were Batman. Now his motivations and personality are moving more in line with the comic persona that I was introduced to in the comics and animated world.

  9. #54
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Well, I believe Oliver's new mission is to get Felicity to marry him. So, really he does have a purpose. His sister and friend showing up, asking for his help, was very inconvenient, but all journeys/missions do involve overcoming roadblocks/obstacles.

    Very inconvenient. Totally should have called ahead. The next morning.

  10. #55
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Agreed. Green Arrow is not Batman. He in the comics rarely every came close to the same all consuming driving force that compels every aspect of life to be about mission. The first three seasons were Batman. Now his motivations and personality are moving more in line with the comic persona that I was introduced to in the comics and animated world.
    But I don't think his comic character was a sociopath, so his sister asking for help against very dangerous people shouldn't be met with doubt.

    God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

  11. #56
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I don't know what not being a sociopath has to do with leaving behind peace and happiness to return to something you think could destroy your being on multiple levels. Not being reluctant to return would be stranger.

  12. #57
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I don't know what not being a sociopath has to do with leaving behind peace and happiness to return to something you think could destroy your being on multiple levels. Not being reluctant to return would be stranger.
    Being a sociopath is the only thing I can say to define doubting going to help your sister against people that are dangerous and has said she and a few others, both of which are your friends, can't handle. If he wasn't a sociopath, he wouldn't doubt.

    God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Being a sociopath is the only thing I can say to define doubting going to help your sister against people that are dangerous and has said she and a few others, both of which are your friends, can't handle. If he wasn't a sociopath, he wouldn't doubt.

    God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!
    Normally, I don't get involved with yours and Bkwurm1's debates. But this time? I'm going to.

    First: technically the term you and Diggle are both searching for is PSYCHOPATH, not sociopath. Sociopathy is pretty much absorbed into Psychopathy these days.

    Second: a key element of both mental disorders is a lack of remorse and guilt for actions taken. Oliver's actions over the past three seasons, especially when we come down to the season finales, show a definite lean towards both. Three times, he's faced his city being on the verge of danger and three times he's been willing to die to keep the city safe. This is another thing missing from your little issue. See, a psychopath/sociopath can't FEEL empathy and may take risks for the thrill of it. Last I checked, the person acting like that on Arrow was THEA, not Oliver. Oliver, on the other hand, cares for his city (his actions in of the past 3 seasons show this, and his eventual decision to stay in the newly-renamed Star City show this hasn't left him, he simply buried it).

    Third: Another psychological aspect you may wish to look into is denial. This fun little thing causes people to act very irrationally, to the point of ignoring the things they're trying to deny the existence of. In this case, Oliver denied the team he left behind would need his help, that his city would need his help with this new crew of heroes working on their behalf. His denial was complete to the point he ignored the news until his sister and Laurel showed up on his doorstep. Now, considering the fact he was in the middle of trying to propose to Felicity, it is a fact that someone in that position would very reluctant to go into danger again. We saw aspects of this in Oliver before this season (last season being the most prominent of the whole 'I can't be with someone I really love because it will keep me unfocused' mindset he had/has going).

  14. #59
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Normally, I don't get involved with yours and Bkwurm1's debates. But this time? I'm going to.

    First: technically the term you and Diggle are both searching for is PSYCHOPATH, not sociopath. Sociopathy is pretty much absorbed into Psychopathy these days.

    Second: a key element of both mental disorders is a lack of remorse and guilt for actions taken. Oliver's actions over the past three seasons, especially when we come down to the season finales, show a definite lean towards both. Three times, he's faced his city being on the verge of danger and three times he's been willing to die to keep the city safe. This is another thing missing from your little issue. See, a psychopath/sociopath can't FEEL empathy and may take risks for the thrill of it. Last I checked, the person acting like that on Arrow was THEA, not Oliver. Oliver, on the other hand, cares for his city (his actions in of the past 3 seasons show this, and his eventual decision to stay in the newly-renamed Star City show this hasn't left him, he simply buried it).

    Third: Another psychological aspect you may wish to look into is denial. This fun little thing causes people to act very irrationally, to the point of ignoring the things they're trying to deny the existence of. In this case, Oliver denied the team he left behind would need his help, that his city would need his help with this new crew of heroes working on their behalf. His denial was complete to the point he ignored the news until his sister and Laurel showed up on his doorstep. Now, considering the fact he was in the middle of trying to propose to Felicity, it is a fact that someone in that position would very reluctant to go into danger again. We saw aspects of this in Oliver before this season (last season being the most prominent of the whole 'I can't be with someone I really love because it will keep me unfocused' mindset he had/has going).
    That isn't what I was getting at. Oliver doubting going back even though not would leave his sister in heavy harms way is what I'm talking about. Him in those instances doesn't change now. But Oliver hasn't shown real remorse or guilt for the crimes he's committed.

    God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

  15. #60
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    I thought it was a great season opener now we will know how the writer will have the show go this season. Officer Lance being part of H.I.V.E should be interesting.

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