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  1. #16
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    JDBentz Ė An analysis of Oliver Queen
    There is a lot that I agree with but there were a few things that I veer away from your interpretation, mostly when it comes to the extent of him supposedly using ďWallerís trainingĒ to put on a front for his family and friends. I do think he put on a front but I donít see him pretending to act in a manner to reinforce the idea that heíd been away from human contact. His blunt statements were more about him IMO being a different person (one that wants to cut through the crap) than trying to throw out support for his island story.

    If I looked at it from that standpoint, Iíd have to think that he faked his reaction when his mom woke him up in the night. I just donít think he was calculated enough to say emotionally charged stuff without meaning it. Nor do I think he had any reason to. For one, no one was questioning him being alone on that island.

    When he returned to Starling he tried to put on his old playboy persona and that clearly was an act but that was IMO just to keep his family and friends from finding out his real mission back in Starling.

    Upon returning to Starling, Oliver clearly had the initial plan to have everything else set up before he began his crusade. I suspect he intended to have the club well on its way and a decent amount of knowledge about his targets before beginning his work as the Hood, but as he said in the pilot, the abduction of he and Tommy caused him to accelerate his plans.
    Iíd forgotten all about this. Thanks for bringing it up.

    Now here, let me address something: it is very clear after Felicity joins them that his somewhat flirtatious nature with her in the previous episodes was an act. Oliver learned from Waller and likely others how to turn someone into an asset. Since we now have to acknowledge Oliver seeing Felicity in his motherís office during 3x14 as being part of the canon, we have to figure that he heard her; his hearing is supposedly pretty good at this point.
    I do think we saw Oliver putting on a playboy persona and trying to flirt his way to info but the best part of their dynamic was IMO where Felicity constantly saw through his lies and charm but helped him anyway and he in turn knew she saw through him and was amused and completely unthreatened by her seeing through him. She told him later that she knew he was lying and yet she still trusted him somehow. He later admits that she was the first person that he was able to see as just a person so I think both of those statements support that while Oliver was putting on a person, he was still genuinely enjoying himself.

    The flashback in 3-15 has Oliver HEARING her voice and seeing her from a distance. We have no reason to think that more than two and a half years later he put two and two together and knew who she was before he spoke to her. He had no reason to remember her voice since it wasnít anything dangerous or urgent. Maybe heíd remember it because in the midst of everything she made him laugh and smile? Is that reason enough to never forget her voice? Voices are typically one of the hardest things to recall about someone so unless she made a huge impression on him, I donít see why or how he could have remembered her. He certainly didnít see her closely enough.

    Now, he did eventually grow to consider Felicity a friend in the latter quarter of Season 1 and throughout Season 2. Iím not disputing that. But I donít believe he ever considered her a romantic interest and thereís been more people telling him that heís in love with her. I think Oliver, both in Season 1 and in Season 3, didnít really know what love (at least of that between two people who mutually love and respect one another in a romantic sense) is.
    I donít think him enjoying harmless banter with her before he officially recruited her indicates he was thinking of her in a romantic way either. His head wasnít in that place at all. Later it is Felicity that actually encourages Oliver and Diggle to risk a little and try to be with those that interested them Ė sending Oliver off to McKenna and Diggle to Carly. He was not in season one looking at her with romantic interest, but that isnít to say he didnít find her attractive. The very first time Felicity glammed up both he and Diggle did obvious almost double takes.

    But that was only in the first season. By the time he gave his speech about ďbecause of the life I leadĒ I certainly do think heíd been considering her in a romantic light Ė but was convinced he shouldnít go there. I also think in the following episode we saw that despite his conviction that he SHOULDNíT go there with Felicity, his feelings already had.

    Selfish, arrogant, and a chronic drunk. These are the three things that make up the Oliver Queen that got on the Queenís Gambit in 2007,
    Small change. Selfish, arrogant, and a chronic drinker when partying. We have actually never seen Oliver drunk in flashbacks (have we ever seen him drunk?) We know about times in his past where he was out drinking and did stupid things (like pee on a cop) cause he was drunk, but for Oliver, his drinking did seem to be an aside to his partying, not a feature of his hourly existence.

    Itís a narrow distinction but important because I donít think he was an addict. We didnít see him going through withdrawals nor did we see him specially seek it out the moment he had a chance. He certainly abused it hard and now seems to be very careful how or when he drinks but while Laurel had something that makes alcohol dependency a disease, I donít think we saw that Oliver had that excuse. He was just an ass that choose to drink and get wasted.

    Yao Fei, Edward Fyers, William Wintergreen, and Slade Wilson all play a role in humbling the young billionaire during the course of that first year. Oliver learns basic survival skills, and begins to understand there are more important things than the next chance to get laid and wasted. He backtracks slightly when he meets Shado, Yao Feiís daughter, but is probably a little intimated by her because she is much more skilled and capable of defending herself than he is. He takes this as a challenge, since its one thing in the mind of a male for another man (Slade Wilson) to be more skilled, but another for a woman who is, from what I can tell, younger than him to be so. Oliver is well-known to be more than a little sexist. Ignoring this is folly.
    I think I would like to hear more reasons why you think Oliver is sexist. I think itís fair to say perhaps impressing Shado motivated Oliver to work on his skills but she seemed to like him with or without them and he never seemed anything but impressed and proud of what she could do IMO.

    His penchant for secrets continues to be a factor when Sara Lance is revealed to be alive and we discover he lied about exactly when she died in his mind for the sake of the Lance family, since it was his fault Sara was on the Gambit. Now, while both of them are guilty of making that choice, I would put the onus of the blame on Oliver because as I said at the beginning, he couldíve chosen any girl but he chose Sara for a reason.
    Sara actually specifically asks him to tell her family she died on the Gambit if they didnít survive the island. She didnít want them to know who sheíd become. Thatís why Oliver lies and says she drowned. He thought she died on the Amazo and was then carrying out her wishes by saying the Gambit.

    Or do they, in the manner of Oliver Queen and Bruce Wayne, embrace a superficial lifestyle to show a public faÁade to those who want it, and then use that to mask why they could not be the vigilantes Batman and Green Arrow?
    Iíd always thought from my exposure to GA on the Justice League cartoons and through the wiki pages on the comics Iíve read that Green Arrow was actually distinguished from Bruce Wayne in that the public figure was still pretty much the real Oliver Queen, even if it wasnít the whole story.

    Like Felicity with regards to him, Oliver has built an idealized version of Felicity up in his mind and that is why the two of them, despite having been at odds for pretty much the entire second half of the season, ride off into the sunset.
    Iím just wondering in what way have you seen Oliver building up an idealized version of Felicity in his mind? They rode off into the sunset IMO because this was their chance finally to be together (since Oliver wanted to put the mask behind him and explore who he had become away from Starling) and Felicity agreed to go with him despite what she was giving up.

  2. #17
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    as he turns control of the League of Assassins over to twisted father figure Malcolm Merlyn (and letís face it, I donít think Malcolm being Theaís father was the sole reason he couldnít kill Merlyn
    Meant to bring this up too. There really was a big lost opportunity here for the show to express Oliver's reluctance to kill Malcolm and not so much IMO that he saw him as a father figure but because as Tommy laid dying, he asked Oliver if his father was still alive and though OLiver thought he had killed Malcolm, he lied to Tommy and said, yes, his dad was alive. In keeping with his vow to honor Tommy's memory, it would have been so easy to include Oliver flashing back to this moment and basically being unable to now make what he told Tommy a lie again.

  3. #18
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    But back to Oliver; here's another thing (in addition to cheating on Laurel with Sara) about Oliver that I just find appalling: in S2 Sara had returned and the family was attempting to have a get together (Laurel had rebuffed a previous attempt), and finally Laurel agreed (the whole thing was very painful for her). Sara and Oliver were sleeping together, and Laurel of course had no idea. Poor Sara is worried about the get-together being unpleasant. So WHAT does she do? Asks Oliver OF ALL PEOPLE to come with her for support!! And Oliver AGREES!! Of course we all know how that worked out...

    I won't comment on what I thought about Sara at this point, b/c I'd rather focus on disparaging Oliver. But I thought that was totally asinine and insensitive on his part. Incredibly poor judgment. I don't care if he felt concern for Sara. Laurel is over there, struggling with substance abuse and he thinks this would be appropriate???? Even if she weren't struggling with substance abuse, he thinks this would be appropriate??

    I was never a big fan of Oliver and Sara getting back together. I felt their initial tryst had already been hurtful enough. And I felt that his getting back with Sara was a form of laziness. It was just easier to take the lazy way out (Sara's right there in front of him, willing) than it was to exert any effort at control over himself in an attempt to show that he could be a better person (that he would avoid going right back to the thing that he had done before that had been so cruel to Laurel and that supposedly? he felt some remorse and regret for).

    Yes, Sara was one of the few women that he could be himself with (secret identity and all that), but I didn't feel like the two of them had some kind of big all-encompassing love that would make it worth going back down that road, at Laurel's expense. Especially considering that he had been trying to rebuild a friendship with Laurel. In the highly unlikely event that Sara was his one-and-only-true-love and they just had to be together b/c there would never be anyone else on earth for each of them, then he could have at least: 1. stayed away from the dinner; (Sara's a big-girl-vigilante, she can take care of herself even if she is afraid of Laurel's fussing at her at dinner), then 2. had a talk with Laurel in which he apologized and acknowledged the harm he did and then told Laurel that he and Sara were now together.

    As I said, I just found this yet another instance of appalling behavior on his part!
    If I could, I would marry this post! It gives a perfect explanation as to why I thought that season two Oliver actually mistreated those he professed to love (as when he told Sara that "he loves Laurel, too"). Although his hallway speech was undoubtedly an important and necessary turning point for Laurel, it also exposed Oliver as a hypocrite. First of all, I don't think he "stood by Laurel through everything" as he claimed. All he did was to ask her if she was alright a couple of times, without even trying to break down her defenses or really engaging himself in her troubles. I know that she pushed him away, but if we consider that she is the woman who "he has loved for half his life", I don't really think he tried as hard to help her as he himself claimed in that hallway scene.

    In fact, with Laurel's depression/substance abuse arc being relegated to the D-story, and with the increasing emphasis on Sara and her storyline (both in the present-day action and in the flashbacks), as well as the rather heavy-handed Olicity "ship tease", there frankly wasn't enough screen time for Oliver to show how much he cared for Laurel. Furthermore, he flat out lied when he said that Laurel tried to get Moira the death penalty, and he seemed to have forgotten about the Dollmaker scene where Laurel confesses her own sense of guilt when it comes to Tommy's death. I could go on and on about everything that was wrong about Oliver's hallway speech, but I think these examples are enough to show that Oliver's perception of both his own and Laurel's actions were flawed.

    The after-dinner hallway scene is one of the most intense and beautifully acted scenes on "Arrow", but Ollie's behavior still makes my blood boil when I think about it!

  4. #19
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    According to the season 4 spoilers [SPOILER]Oliver and Felicity are going to live together next season and were living together during the season break. [/SPOILER]

    So, Oliver has never actually lived alone once in his life, right ? I'm not really counting the island because he was always with someone there.

    After the island, he had lived at the Mansion, with his sister and [SPOILER]now with Felicity[/SPOILER]

    I know, Oliver suffers from trauma but I think it does make him feel a little too dependent, imo.

    If Oliver wants to discover himself, some independence and "alone time" would certainly not be a wrong thing.
    Last edited by Neverending Story; 08-16-2015 at 08:47 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending Story View Post
    According to the season 4 spoilers [SPOILER]Oliver and Felicity are going to live together next season and were living together during the season break. [/SPOILER]

    So, Oliver has never actually lived alone once in his life, right ? I'm not really counting the island because he was always with someone there.

    After the island, he had lived at the Mansion, with his sister and [SPOILER]now with Felicity[/SPOILER]

    I know, Oliver suffers from trauma but I think it does make him feel a little too dependant, imo.

    If Oliver wants to discover himself, some independance and "alone time" would certainly not be a wrong thing.
    It is kind of funny that Oliver didn't live any kind of Robinson Crusoe life on Lian Yu, rather the opposite! He was surrounded by people almost from day one, and that continued in the Hongkong flashbacks, where he lived with the Yamashiros. I'm sure that is a much better solution from a dramaturgical POV...after all, it is more interesting to watch the hero interact with other people than watching him all by his lonesome. However, I do agree that Oliver should spend some time alone, and gain some true independence.

  6. #21
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    However, I do agree that Oliver should spend some time alone, and gain some true independence.
    Yes, but the powerful combo of emotionally closed-off AND domestically helpless makes him all the more alluring and irresistible to emotional-rescuer caretaker-wannabe females!

  7. #22
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Yes, but the powerful combo of emotionally closed-off AND domestically helpless makes him all the more alluring and irresistible to emotional-rescuer caretaker-wannabe females!
    From what I hear [SPOILER] HE's not the domestically helpless one. [/SPOILER]

  8. #23
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    It is kind of funny that Oliver didn't live any kind of Robinson Crusoe life on Lian Yu
    Even Crusoe had his man Friday. Oliver has his gal Wednesday.

  9. #24
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    SA told a story about growing a goatee (technically what the Green Arrow had in the comics was a Van Dyke but to keep things simple, we'll call it a goatee) and it looking terrible so in the interests of everyone's ascetic pleasure, we get the stubble instead.

    A very good trade in my book.

    I'm trying to remain open minded about the new costume. I'm having issues with the look of the shoulder pads and also the misuse of arm guards. They are on backwards for an archer. Maybe we are supposed to believe Oliver is so good with the bow and arrow he only needs the guards for street fighting. Still just the sleeveless factor is highly impractical both in the real life of shooting scenes in Vancouver in the winter and for protection during fights. What advantage could they sell the no sleeves as bringing to the costume other than fan service for the comics and bicep service to the viewers?
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 09-07-2015 at 03:28 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    SA told a story about growing a goatee (technically what the Green Arrow had in the comics was a Van Dyke but to keep things simple, we'll call it a goatee) and it looking terrible so in the interests of everyone's ascetic pleasure, we get the stubble instead.

    A very good trade in my book.

    I'm trying to remain open minded about the new costume. I'm having issues with the look of the shoulder pads and also the misuse of arm guards. They are on backwards for an archer. Maybe we are supposed to believe Oliver is so good with the bow and arrow he only needs the guards for street fighting. Still just the sleeveless factor is highly impractical both in the real life of shooting scenes in Vancouver in the winter and for protection during fights. What advantage could they sell the no sleeves as bringing to the costume other than fan service for the comics and bicep service to the viewers?
    This is a very good point, especially in light of the fact that the costume design department went out of their way to design an outfit for Sara, and then Laurel, which had fishnet patterns on leather instead of having them wear fishnet stockings. Of course, now I have this horrible image that next season they'll have Laurel trade-in the outfit they designed for the 'original look' outfit.... Of course, there'd probably have to be a demand on that since there has been a demand for Oliver's outfit to be closer to the GA of comic lore, while only a handful across the Internet have demanded Sara, then Laurel, begin wearing fishnet stockings instead of their current design....

  11. #26
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    If you are going to come in and pretend to be a fan posting something rather than a rep for the company, could you at least post Arsenal's outfit in Roy's thread and not Oliver's, you know, the GREEN Arrow, not the red one?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by James@Angeljackets View Post
    Sweets!! As much as i adore Green Arrow, I'm in for all character including the Red Arrow. It's just Random. Plus, even if i open a topic, there are lots who talk out of topic. It's just not fair when i do that. But it's cool i don't mind. I'll make sure of that. I just posted that, maybe it might help you guys. That's all.
    *sighs* Its not even on the topic of this thread. As I recall, you made a thread about the costumes of Arrow. This belongs THERE, and NOWHERE ELSE but a thread for Roy Harper/Arsenal.

  13. #28
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    I'm kind of tiered of seeing your posts James@Angeljackets of trying to sell stuff and using being a fan in order to do it. If you really are interested in the show besides selling stuff then make more posts that have nothing to do with cloths.

    You have 5 posts and most of them are about cloths. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

  14. #29
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Came across this quote which gave me a different way to think about Oliver during his journey from dark to light. The quote is from George Garrett, amateur boxer and novelist, and found in Resilience by Eric Greitens (2015; p 44-45) who in turn pulled the quote from Joyce Carol Oates, On Boxing (1987, p.28):

    "Most of the fighters I knew were wounded people who felt a deep, powerful urge to wound others at real risk to themselves. In the beginning. What happened was that in almost every case, there was so much self-discipline required and craft involved, so much else besides one's original motivations to concentrate on, that these motivations became at least cloudy and vague and were often forgotten, lost completely. Many good and experienced fighters (as has often been noted) become gentle and kind people."

    I am definitely reminded of Oliver's decision to move past seeking vengeance for his father and pursuing the names on that list. Also, one could consider that his move towards lightness has not really so much to do with Felicity's influence (here's my anti-Felicity/Olicity bias speaking!) but more so to do with the satisfaction and fulfillment to be found in exercising self-discipline and focusing on mastering a craft. The pursuit of such excellence, which is one way that people find fulfillment, happiness and possibly meaning (depending on the point of the pursuit) in their lives, replaces the empty, shallow, brief sensation of satisfaction to be found for some in vengeance and inflicting pain on others....

  15. #30
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    It's just occurred to me that the only female outside of Oliver's Mother and sister that he hasn't slept with is his "wife"

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