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  1. #46
    Hopeless Forum Addict Halberdier17's Avatar
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    I don't even know why they need a tech expert Ollie was good with computers he set up the original computer system in the Arrow Cave and rebuilt the radio on the island. Once Felicity found out that Ollie was the Arrow she rebuilt his system while he was passed out. She didn't ask for permission.

    But it seems after Season 1 the writers forgot Ollie was actually tech savvy. They also dumbed down Diggle so Felicity had something to do when it came to using computers since he tracked people before Felicity joined Team Arrow.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halberdier17 View Post
    I don't even know why they need a tech expert Ollie was good with computers he set up the original computer system in the Arrow Cave and rebuilt the radio on the island. Once Felicity found out that Ollie was the Arrow she rebuilt his system while he was passed out. She didn't ask for permission.

    But it seems after Season 1 the writers forgot Ollie was actually tech savvy. They also dumbed down Diggle so Felicity had something to do when it came to using computers since he tracked people before Felicity joined Team Arrow.
    You are definitely right! When you rewatch the early episodes of season one, it's like watching another Oliver Queen, at least when it comes to his computer knowledge! I understand that shows change, and that episodes from seasons ago cannot function as an eternal gold standard when it comes to characterization and plot. However, it is a bit jarring to see how some characters' capabilities and skills have been more or less completely retconned in order to motivate Felicity's introduction, and in order to make her shine. Felicity has been presented as a computer genius with an unusually high IQ, so it is clear that the rest of the team members would not be able to do many of the things she does (virtual autopsies etc.). However, it gets kind of ridiculous when Oliver, who was perfectly capable of doing pretty advanced stuff with a computer, now seems totally helpless and cannot even sit down in front of a computer whenever Felicity is gone.

    IMHO it's just another example of the sometimes unnecessary elevating of Felicity, at the expense of other characters (another example is Ray, who apparently couldn't solve the problems with his ATOM suit without Felicity's genius mind...despite the fact that he is ALSO supposed to be a genius!). Anyway, here is a good summary of the "dumbing down" of Oliver in later seasons:

    Tracks things down: Something a lot of fans seem to gloss over in their hunt to point of reasons why Felicity is "so amazing", is the fact that Oliver Queen was clearly dumbed down a little so that when she was introduced she had a "place" on the team as the tech-gal. When I say "Oliver Queen was clearly dumbed" I don't mean from the comics, I mean from the first few episodes of the show... Clearly Oliver's didn't have the skills to hack into a bullet hole ridden computer that had been owned and secured by a paid assassin (Deadshot), but he DID have the expertise to create an arrow that wired money to various accounts in the first episode of the show, he also could track down high-profile businessmen and knew when to strike them, amongst other things. Again, granted to introducing her has shifted the tech-focus away from Oliver, but that could have easily been done without making Oliver a monkey around technology as he seems to be right now. There are scenes when he has to call Felicity over to the computer to track something down, when it's something Oliver was clearly adept in doing in the first few episodes with only one small computer and a couple of Home Depot lights in his hideout.
    I realize that this argument has already been made in another thread ("Characters about Olicity"), but since we tend to go around in circles and repeat the same arguments when it comes to other characters as well, I guess we could overlook the repetition. The truth is that Oliver did manage to do a lot of the necessary computer searches etc. by himself (or with the help of Diggle when he joined) without constantly consulting Felicity. This shows that there has been a certain tweaking of his skills and abilities in order to make Felicity appear absolutely irreplaceable.
    Last edited by evaba; 08-07-2015 at 03:48 AM.

  3. #48
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I'm hoping that, since at least some of S4 will provide launching pad space for new DC characters and series , that some of the necessary characterization work they're putting into this will trickle down to Team Arrow. I know, it should be the other way around but I think LOT will be calling dibs on much of this effort throughout S4.

    Felicity has stalled / made minimal progress in the characterization department in S3, while practically everyone else on the team in comparison have made more progress. Felicity and Ollie -- as independent characters, whether or not they end up together -- must be at the front of the character development line in S4 in the way Laurel and Thea needed to be (and largely did) back in S3.

    This is the season they need to accomplish this with her character, to give her characterization that is worthy of the status she occupies on the show as a lead. It's not like she hasn't many any progress but compared to other members of Team Arrow by S3's end, her own development has been wanting.

    If they can't get dedicated attention on this front as Arrow characters due to LOT etc., then at least let them get more characterization as a side-effect of launching LOT and new characters (ie. the late-seasons SV approach of progress-by-association with new characters).

  4. #49
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Also, I do not believe that the temperament I saw in S3F would be well-suited to CEO. I would want to see a much calmer approach to problems. A leader must foster confidence, among other things. Excitable people (I mean people acting in excitable manner in work settings specifically here – don’t want to use more specific adjectives or I think I will get snarky) do not tend to inspire feelings of calm in those around them; such “excitableness” can ramp up emotions in others and cause stress. We make better decisions when we are calm and not stressed. So need a leader whose style will promote calmness….

    I do think that Felicity was very stressed in Season three and it got worse and worse as it went on but I don't think a particularly stressful patch in her life indicates how she handles normal stress. We’ve seen her handle a constant stream of stressful situations during the first two season and it was only the person distress (and it being piled on her again and again and again with no real relief) that brought out her being viewed as emotional.
    Season three was a constant stream of very personal stressors. Deaths and betrayals and dark tragedy and it was just bang, bang, bang, no relief and still, this translates only into having one at work stress related encounter with her boss that I recall, the one where she told him putting on the suit wouldn’t be what Anna wanted. The other times where she was crying at work were her having a private moment and Ray intruding. She wasn’t there in a work capacity or trying to lead or give orders.

    After Ray kissed her and then ran away she was short with him, but there wasn’t any “cry voice” involved and stern and curt are accepted as normal in a work environment (Why anger is an acceptable emotion in the work place but sadness is not, well that’s of course wrapped up in the work place being a previously male dominated field and men setting up rules for what is “acceptable”)

    Except for right after Oliver “died”, Felicity kept her emotions to herself at work. Even when she apologized to Ray and told him she wouldn’t help him anymore with his suit, she was calm. Every time in season three where Felicity actually cried or had the emotion in her voice, there were very strong and good reasons behind it. It became overwhelming but that was the season. The pain was overwhelming and nobody was in a place to suffer more than Felicity.

    Sara’s death of course was bigger to Laurel, but Sara’s death for Felicity came immediately on top of heartbreak and then Oliver tied his own life and likely soon to be impending death to Sara’s. So Felicity isn’t only morning a friend and someone she’d seen as larger than life, but she’s nursing her heartbreak over Oliver AND morning his determination to be Sara some time soon. AND it’s Felicity that had to handle and examine Sara’s body. Felicity has no ability to distance herself, she had no training or experience to do that.

    Just as she gets a handle on all that trauma, Cooper returns and dredges up all the trauma she’d probably just gotten over when she joined Tea Arrow. The level of his betrayal revealed had to rock her and while I think all of them are kind of zen about risks to their own lives, her mother’s life was threatened. Still, all through the first half of the season she handles her work with her team and her work at Palmer Tech. She even is able to be there and help new friends in Central City. I sincerely admire her strength to keep going as well as she did.

    Even after Oliver left to face Ra’s, she held on and held the team together when they were already ready to give up. Even Oliver’s death didn’t change her resolve. But she reached her breaking point when her team almost died which translated to less than a week later scooping up all the shattered pieces of her life together and go on strong. (And while she walked around like a zombie that week at PT, she didn’t even take time off from her other job)

    She rebounds again and pulls the team back together, helps Laurel regain her confidence, and doubles down on her faith in Ray – the only other friend in her life and even he was trying to put himself into the likely to be killed list. Again, the strength of will to be able to carry on is incredible to me. By all rights at this point Felicity should have been curled up for a week in a fetal position bawling. She doesn’t though.

    Then Oliver comes back and as wonderful as it was that he was alive, nearly his first announcement was that for him, nothing had changed and not only was he still set on just cruelly dangling maybe’s, he was back with an even stronger determination to get himself killed. Felicity is still grieving but she’s most certainly reached Anger as her stage of grief.

    My problem is very much with the way S3F was written, in terms of communication style: tone and delivery. I found it very inconsistent with what I had seen and liked so much about S1 Felicity


    Quite often the S3 character, while in the midst of contentious debate regarding serious issues about which the character had very valid concerns and viewpoints, communicated using a verbal style that included: crying, quavering voice, increased pitch, yelling and a pleading cadence.


    I call this "toddler-ese" because in our culture, which group most commonly uses these communication techniques to make their viewpoints known? Toddlers
    My point is that what we saw from Felicity in the rest of the season wasn’t a communication style – we know that is NOT how she has communicated before – what we got were emotions. Emotions aren’t always a convenient thing. They can be a physical thing that cannot be pushed aside, particularly when your emotional reserves, the ability to lay a layer of distance over them, are tapped out. Felicity used up her reserves. And yet, she didn’t stop meeting any of her obligations or duties. She was though in a place where with Oliver she was either not able to or not willing to spare him her anger.

    And she is judged weak for her actions.

    I do honestly think it’s part of society’s gender bias that a woman expresses her emotions and her anger and hurt and it’s viewed as unstable and juvenile but when a man expresses his anger it’s strong and direct and unflinching. And yes, sometimes that anger does sound remarkably like a “cry voice”. Of the times I actually have cried at work, it was because I was sooooo mad and frustrated - but I am not in a position to be allowed to be mad - so I pushed it down and it came out as tears and I’m sure I too was judged for it.

    (I find it very interesting that complaints about Felicity “crying all the time” really didn’t come to a head until she is in opposition to Oliver. But that is probably a different conversation. )

    Toddlers don’t have emotional control. They don’t know to react to the correct degree. Whimpering and wails happen if they drop their cookie or if their puppy dies. But Felicity each and every time her emotions came out maybe more than society is comfortable with, she was reacting reasonably to her circumstances.

    Felicity did cry or was holding back tears far more often than it was comfortable in season three. We are conditioned not to enjoy tears. They are painful to hear and it is maddening when we are powerless to “fix” them. And some people’s life experience probably makes them even more uncomfortable than others. And I think frustration with how much of a drag the character’s pain, particularly Felicity’s became on the audience did turn some actually against the one they deemed responsible for making them feel uncomfortable or helpless.

    I get it. I was so tired of Felicity crying too but she never cried without a completely reasonable reason and since the reason for her pain kept getting worse and worse (or remained equally as terrible) they wrote themselves into a corner where if Felicity DIDN’T show the same level of distress, then we’d be calling heartless and uncaring.

    I wanted them to stop loading on the pain so Felicity could recover and not be running so emotionally exposed. That’s primarily why when at the end of the season when Oliver wanted her to drop her whole life and any dreams and ambitions and go away with him, I was ok with it. Felicity needed a break and a chance to heal and recharge as much as Oliver.

    I’m not saying that she’d in her last three years on the team (specifically the last year) went through equal amount of trauma to Oliver’s eight, no not at all. For Oliver (and Sara) to survive, he had to get hard and I don’t want Felicity to have to develop those same kind of callouses.

    We learned that at the end of her time at MIT she went through something that I don’t think anyone would have judged her for if she’d become a harder person, more guarded, less open and empathetic. We know Cooper’s supposed death did change her. She erased just about every outward trace of that rebel whose recklessness contributed to Cooper’s “suicide.” She didn’t though, let it turn her into a hard person. She found a way to still be open, happy, and empathetic. And it’s one of the traits I most admire about Felicity.

    Felicity feels and reacts and she’s probably more emotionally healthy for it but season three threw too much pain and the only way to deal with it normally for Felicity would have been to take the time to work through it. Or get hard. It’s what Oliver and Sara had to do and I’m not judging them but again, I don’t want Felicity to have to stop being who she is. Feeling her emotions is not IMO a sign of weakness or of not being tough enough.

    She felt them, they at times made her voice quiver but they never stopped her from doing what she needed to do. I admire her more because not only did she persevere and not only did she continue to meet the very high needs of all those needing her time and expertise or comfort, she did it without sacrificing her willingness to feel even though it would have probably been easier to avoid her feelings or bury them or hide behind something else. But she didn’t. She faced them and lived with them.

    I’m not sure though, how much more she had to give at the end of the season or how much longer she could have gone on before she would have HAD to become calloused in order to survive. She was at the end running on fumes and her emotions were right there at the surface, but again, that is not a style of communication, that is Felicity coping under extreme circumstances.

    Many women work in settings where emotions run high and life-and-death stakes are involved and this is not considered an acceptable way for them to communicate with their professional colleagues. And women know that to do so would be counterproductive, as the style of delivery is so distracting that the content/substance becomes lost and, in fact, others would not take them seriously
    We watched Felicity cope with high stress life and death situations for two years and watched her handle it calmly and effectively. Season three continued to show her handle everything that was thrown at her, the difference is that she was emotionally wrung out and so while she still accomplished everything anyone asked of her, she occasionally had a quaver in her voice but even that only happened on mission at the very end of an extremely personally painful year.

    I also expect more of Diggle and Oliver and Roy than to writer her off or not take her seriously because she is emotional. They know better than that and I think we saw that reflected. Except when ALL of their emotions were running high and there was a difference of opinion, (the door closing thing) no one ever questioned Felicity's work or judgment. We saw Felicity react more angrily around Oliver when her returned and that might not be behavior condoned at work but the people on TA were far beyond mere co-workers. They were first and foremost friends and partners, family really. We all share our emotions (and our temper) more freely with family. And again, it never stopped her from doing what needed to be done.


    We more admire the man that is afraid but still goes into battle than the one that does not feel fear. I more admire the person that is hurting and still does what needs to be done, than the one that hides away until she can save face. The city might be destroyed, but hooray, she doesn’t have a quiver in her voice.

  5. #50
    Black Canary dreamsofnever's Avatar
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    Very beautifully put, Bkwurm! I am working on trying to separate my own internalized misogyny from my views on Felicity. I can't promise that I will end up liking her more, but we will see. This does give me a lot to think about though.

    I do think that the writers poured on the melodrama in this season, like in every season. Felicity just got a big heaping helping of it because of her increased screen time and her role as Oliver's love interest of the season. The women he loves do seem to suffer the most, but that's kind of a given in a show where the writers are going for soap opera style in that they want to make the worst possible things happen to characters.

  6. #51
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    Very beautifully put, Bkwurm! I am working on trying to separate my own internalized misogyny from my views on Felicity. I can't promise that I will end up liking her more, but we will see. This does give me a lot to think about though.

    I do think that the writers poured on the melodrama in this season, like in every season. Felicity just got a big heaping helping of it because of her increased screen time and her role as Oliver's love interest of the season. The women he loves do seem to suffer the most, but that's kind of a given in a show where the writers are going for soap opera style in that they want to make the worst possible things happen to characters.
    I am so counting on season four to let things get back to normal. Arrow was always full of tough stuff but season three was one long relentless kick to the gut. You will find this hilarious. In conjunction to SA's Nocking Point winery, some Olicity fans have been promoting the purchase of a certain 17oz wine glass (proceeds all go to charity) thus representing all the wine needed to drink to cope with the Season three pain and drama.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 08-07-2015 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #52
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I also get the feeling that Stephen kind of freezes in these scenes, because EBR is so focused on her own performance that there is not much for him to "play off", so to speak.
    You have brought it up before but I don't see a dearth of reaction from SA. He often talks about all the little extra things he and EBR add to their scenes. With the specific scene brought up (I don't want to be a woman you love) keeping frozen while the woman you love is blistering your soul, that seems the right reaction to me, lol. He did even in that scene have a lot of expression. All I heard was praise for his puppy dog wounded expressions afterwards so I just can't say I didn't see him react.
    but I do think that this went beyond that and tried to paint her as an emotional person to the point that it makes her irrational and even childish in cases. And this behavior is yet again not CEO characteristics.
    I'd love some examples.

    Though I also think that Oliver, Ray, and Felicity are all too young to be taken seriously as CEOs. Though I could be proven wrong if someone points to CEOs under 30,
    Technically I think Ray was supposed to be 31 if that helps. As for real CEOs under 30, all you have to do is type CEO in Google and the prompt "CEOs under 30" comes up and will take you to a bunch of articles and lists for your perusal. I agree its young but it happens in real life and has been normal by TV standards for decades, IMO, but hey, different things hit us all differently. I was fine with the scene where Barry gave Oliver rat poison in season two but then I learned about warfarin when a family member had blood clots and now I know that it won't act that fast so I cringe every time I see that scene knowing just a little too much to accept it as plausible. Same goes for the legal crap (holy cow was that bad ).

  8. #53
    Black Canary dreamsofnever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I am so counting on season for to let things get back to normal. Arrow was always full of tough stuff but season three was one long relentless kick to the gut. You will find this hilarious. In conjunction to SA's Nocking Point winery, some Olicity fans have been promoting the purchase of a certain 17oz wine glass (proceeds all go to charity) thus representing all the wine needed to drink to cope with the Season three pain and drama.
    That is great! And very accurate.

    But I am not counting on season four being any better. Season two had Laurel's addiction issues, Moira's death, Oliver still grieving Tommy, etc, etc. And season one had all the drama and pain from Oliver coming back to loved ones who had been mourning him and had changed in their grief. So there has always been melodrama and I imagine it will continue to be thst way, but hopefully we get a few more bright spots in season four.

  9. #54
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I am so counting on season four to let things get back to normal. Arrow was always full of tough stuff but season three was one long relentless kick to the gut. You will find this hilarious. In conjunction to SA's Nocking Point winery, some Olicity fans have been promoting the purchase of a certain 17oz wine glass (proceeds all go to charity) thus representing all the wine needed to drink to cope with the Season three pain and drama.
    What pain? Does that include annoyance?

  10. #55
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Felicity has stalled / made minimal progress in the characterization department in S3, while practically everyone else on the team in comparison have made more progress. Felicity and Ollie -- as independent characters, whether or not they end up together -- must be at the front of the character development line in S4 in the way Laurel and Thea needed to be (and largely did) back in S3.
    I'm all for further characterization but I have a hard time understanding what is meant when someone says Felicity stalled in characterization. When I see Thea and Laurel used as the good examples of characterization, I have to wonder if to some progress in characterization means drastic change since both Laurel and Thea went from civilian to vigilante. They gained some skills and had an emotional journey (we can debate on the strength of said journeys at another time) but Felicity too was shown to gain some skills (virtual autopsy, building a super suit, being a VP) and had a hell of a roller coaster ride with her emotions. She came out of the experience in a different place, realizing that there was no just moving on from Oliver and substituting him for someone else that looked perfect on paper, but yeah otherwise, she didn't have to come to some huge revelation since she really wasn't the one holding back her happiness, it was Oliver who had to work on his issues.

    Still, we saw that Felicity took ownership of her place on the team with or without Oliver, that was growth. She reconciled with her mother, that was growth. She found out that she could be a VP to a company, that was growth (and honestly as realistic to me as any of Laurel's miraculously acquired fighting skills are to her fans).

    I am looking forward to this next season and the introduction of [SPOILER] Mr. Terrific as a friend for Felicity. She needs a friend she can unload on like Oliver did with Diggle in season three [/SPOILER] She really lacked a window into her thoughts on Arrow for far too long. We learned more what she was thinking on The Flash then on Arrow, but I think that was because of how isolated they kept her with Ray and so it wasn't natural for her to express the deeper stuff she was going through.

    The actors and show runners at Comic-con all talked about being able to explore more relationships and more interaction with characters they hadn't had much time to spend time with before. Hopefully all the characters will get a chance to strengthen their bonds. I got the impression that detail and attention to characterization is what Wendy Mercile (sp?) will be trying hard to bring to the table.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    What pain? Does that include annoyance?
    @Dagenspear, I think @BkWurm was referring to the characters' pain and drama (especially Felicity's) and not the viewers frustration, annoyance and second hand embarrassment when watching the poorly written and sometimes incredibly cheesy melodrama that plagued quite a few season three scenes and episodes. For example, I think I would need a few of those BIG glasses of wine to get through the cheese-fest that was "Draw Back Your Bow", and I would probably need a few shots of whisky if I should ever have the audacity to tackle "The Fallen" or the season finale again!

  12. #57
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    That is great! And very accurate.

    But I am not counting on season four being any better. Season two had Laurel's addiction issues, Moira's death, Oliver still grieving Tommy, etc, etc. And season one had all the drama and pain from Oliver coming back to loved ones who had been mourning him and had changed in their grief. So there has always been melodrama and I imagine it will continue to be thst way, but hopefully we get a few more bright spots in season four.
    There will always be melodrama, this is the soapiest show right from it's pilot episode (back from the dead after sleeping with girlfriend's sister!) but there were too many big personal blows this year. We lost Tommy in season one (Robert too but we didn't know him) and Moira in season two, but after Tommy the show wrapped and didn't restart til the audience and the characters had time to come to some terms with his death. Moira's death for me was bigger and more painful than Tommy's and the episodes after her death were very full of emotion but it only lasted for like three more episodes and then we got a big win for the characters and the summer hiatus.

    I sincerely believe TPTB at Arrow abused the level of pain the audience could handle. I've talked about the characters but we in the audience were suffering non stop too. I got the big ouch of Oliver not being able to be the Arrow and be with Felicity and then BAM! Sara's dead. I think I wept during most of that second episode. Then there was all of Laurel's pain in coping with Sara's death and then coping with the horror of what Malcolm did to Thea topped with Oliver going off to sacrifice himself for Thea and dying! I think most of us handled it pretty well but I also know most everywhere I went people were really, really hoping the back half of the season was going to lighten up.

    NOPE!!!


    They ground our noses in Oliver's death and all the hurt left behind. They took away every victory the Team had left. Oliver comes back but now he's betraying his own ethics to get the chance to go back and be killed for real this time and if the team was torn before, now there was a absolute rift which made it hard to watch and then Lance finds out and now basically he hates our guy now so the Lance we loved is gone and we don't even get nice scenes between Laurel and her dad. Even Dig and Lyla's wedding spirals into losing Deadshot and Ray turning into the dickiest dick of them all for a while. Take a breath but then the Arrow is being destroyed and hunted and now we lose ROY! No he's not dead but I was still crushed. Now Thea is dead (and before that she was suicidal) Nyssa isn't even safe, she's had her birth right basically stolen. Oliver goes off and we save Thea but those good byes and not going to say good byes, ugh, that hurt.

    Our reward? Evil OLiver!!! Worse than death. And even though I didn't buy his brainwashing for a minute, that only made the betrayal between him and Diggle worse. Then the cute kid in the flashback dies. In the present, his parents get to fight to the death and the high point of the episode, EVERYONE dies! (Ok, Oliver and Nyssa get married but I think they were feeling about as positive about their impending vows as TA was about their deaths. The finale opened with Oliver's best move - attempted suicide! And on it went till the end.

    The show runners want our emotions engaged with the characters' emotions but out of sheer self defense, I think we all had to find ways to disengage.

    The show has never before dumped that kind of constant pain on the audience and I sincerely hope we never see it again.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 08-07-2015 at 02:52 PM.

  13. #58
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    What pain? Does that include annoyance?
    As you like it.

    I know for myself, I often express anger and annoyance when I am hurt or feeling pain. It's easier to handle.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 08-07-2015 at 02:48 PM.

  14. #59
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    I agree with dreamsofnever – very eloquent summation of what Felicity has dealt with. I look forward to going through it more carefully but had a few initial thoughts…

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I do think that Felicity was very stressed in Season three and it got worse and worse as it went on but I don't think a particularly stressful patch in her life indicates how she handles normal stress. We’ve seen her handle a constant stream of stressful situations during the first two season and it was only the person distress (and it being piled on her again and again and again with no real relief) that brought out her being viewed as emotional.
    Season three was a constant stream of very personal stressors. Deaths and betrayals and dark tragedy and it was just bang, bang, bang, no relief
    First, I should have clarified in my post that when I referred to work, I consider her work in Arrowcave & team Arrow to be work. Not just what she does for Ray. She doesn’t get paid for Arrow stuff (I guess?) but what she does is serious business and it is no less work than when medical & relief workers volunteer to go on rescue/humanitarian relief missions where earthquakes, tsunamis etc occur.

    I do agree that the stressful events have been increasing in number but the problem is, with the nature of Arrow work, one can’t be sure that things (crises etc) will get better. It is very likely that they could stay at the same level, if not escalate. In which case, if by S3 it has been difficult for her to handle the stress, then how will she have the reserves to take on yet more stress in seasons to come? (Hopefully time off with Ollie will help and serve as a sabbatical…but refueling from sabbaticals can last only so long if things start ramping back up…).

    Given that Felicity has experienced so much stress, what is your assessment of what she has experienced in comparison to others? I ask this b/c in a work setting it is highly possible that a colleague will experience a great deal of stress while others are just kind of plugging along. But in case of Team Arrow, seems like everyone is under a lot of stress (Laurel lost her sister as you point out…), so I’m not sure that I would use her “more emotional” reaction as an objective indicator that her stress was more so than the others; it is possible that various team members experienced just as much if not more stress yet did not react in the same way we saw Felicity react….

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    (Why anger is an acceptable emotion in the work place but sadness is not, well that’s of course wrapped up in the work place being a previously male dominated field and men setting up rules for what is “acceptable”)
    Excellent point! I had some thoughts about that back in the Laurel discussion thread when we were talking about our perceptions of gender but got sidetracked… maybe I’ll get back there eventually…

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    My point is that what we saw from Felicity in the rest of the season wasn’t a communication style – we know that is NOT how she has communicated before – what we got were emotions. Emotions aren’t always a convenient thing. They can be a physical thing that cannot be pushed aside, particularly when your emotional reserves, the ability to lay a layer of distance over them, are tapped out. Felicity used up her reserves. And yet, she didn’t stop meeting any of her obligations or duties. She was though in a place where with Oliver she was either not able to or not willing to spare him her anger.

    And she is judged weak for her actions.

    I do honestly think it’s part of society’s gender bias that a woman expresses her emotions and her anger and hurt and it’s viewed as unstable and juvenile but when a man expresses his anger it’s strong and direct and unflinching. And yes, sometimes that anger does sound remarkably like a “cry voice”. Of the times I actually have cried at work, it was because I was sooooo mad and frustrated - but I am not in a position to be allowed to be mad - so I pushed it down and it came out as tears and I’m sure I too was judged for it.

    (I find it very interesting that complaints about Felicity “crying all the time” really didn’t come to a head until she is in opposition to Oliver. But that is probably a different conversation. )

    Toddlers don’t have emotional control. They don’t know to react to the correct degree. Whimpering and wails happen if they drop their cookie or if their puppy dies. But Felicity each and every time her emotions came out maybe more than society is comfortable with, she was reacting reasonably to her circumstances.
    Lots of good points and valid observations here. So I will elaborate more on my concerns about the “toddler-ese.” And we may just have to disagree here....

    For me, it is about power. And about the sad fact that so often women fail to give themselves due credit for the power they possess. And by power, I mean their ability to influence others and to influence a situation so as to be able to realize their goals.

    Toddlers “communicate” as they do b/c at some level they recognize that they are powerless when it comes to manifesting their will and achieving their goals. 1.) They don’t have the communication skills needed to argue eloquently on their behalf, and 2.) They are not recognized as having agency or autonomy; they occupy low positions on the totem pole – their parents are boss. So, they are very frustrated and that is why we see the behaviors I mentioned (inadequate tools for communication, no authority = trouble getting what they want = powerlessness = frustrated = crying, pleading, higher pitched voice etc].

    So in a work setting (I’m counting Arrowcave work) when a woman, in the course of trying to convince her colleagues of the soundness of her plan, resorts to what I called toddler-ese, she is demonstrating that she is frustrated and she is frustrated b/c she believes herself to be powerless.

    For example, when you give an example of being driven to tears b/c, as you point out, you are not in a position where you are allowed to be mad -- that is an example of a certain type of powerlessness. Nothing to do with you personally, but your position (which is your source of influence in this example, unless nepotism is at play in which you may be able to get away with it despite the conditions of your position) did not give you that kind of power (ie the power to demonstrate that you are mad)

    Another way a person can feel powerless is if they do not have the skills/tools needed to be able to advocate on their behalf for the “rightness” of their position.

    Finally, yet another way a person can feel powerless is if – regardless of however many wonderful qualities and skills they may possess – they are just not able to appreciate the power of those qualities, the power of what they possess in terms of skills, strengths, innate qualities etc (There is a strong gender component here, in that it is often said by human resource types that men will try for a job even if they are not fully qualified, whereas women will not do so unless they think they are fully qualified and even then, they may not give themselves credit for just how qualified they are….) There is a great Alice Walker quote that I keep handy: “The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don’t have any.” Not seeing what is right there in front of your eyes….

    So, as you point out, when I see Felicity resorting to “toddler-ese” when she is arguing her position in opposition to Oliver, I feel dismay, as I believe she is only doing this b/c she is so very frustrated, and that she is frustrated b/c she feels powerless. She doesn’t give herself credit for how much power she has.

    By resorting to this form of communication (crying etc), she is giving up her power. And that is because, when she acts this way, she is communicating to Oliver that she believes herself to be powerless. And if she believes that she has no power, well, then she must not (see Alice Walker quote). So she risks sending the message to Oliver that she does not have power; then from his viewpoint, if that is true (and it must be, else why would she think it?) he doesn’t have to take her seriously. He doesn’t have to think about the consequences of not taking her seriously – b/c what kind of consequences are there when you are dealing with someone without power? (like a parent-toddler relationship; what are the consequences for the parent if the parents says “no” – what is the toddler going to do about it? Perhaps cry, scream etc but really, what does the toddler have the power to do ultimately…)

    Now as follows, I’m not talking about your specific example (an understandable reaction to an isolated instance of immense frustration and not a recurring pattern) but generically: This is why in real life, in the work setting, women need to be very careful to distinguish between when and how they choose to display certain types of emotions and when they do not. Yes, for example, it may be very valid to feel extremely upset/frustrated when one presents a very compelling idea backed up with all kinds of good evidence to a bunch of colleagues and you get shot down and the plan is rejected. But to respond in a way consistent with what I am calling toddler-ese – no matter how much it reflects your inner emotional reality at that moment – is a risky path. Because you are sending the message that you are powerless, that you have reached this point of frustration b/c you believe yourself to be so very powerless; and if your colleagues pick up on that, then they may decide that yes, you are powerless and so they needn’t worry about the potential ramifications from you if they reject the plan. So to react publicly even once in such a way can be risky, but to react this way publicly repeatedly is a sure recipe for being treated as if one has no power at all. (If Felicity is so frustrated with Oliver that she wants to cry etc, then she should go cry in private; better yet she should just tell him if he can’t appreciate her good advice he can just go take a hike…see below…)

    When actually, let’s look at the reality of how powerful Felicity really is: 1.) Position-wise: Oliver is lucky to have her on his team. She volunteers, she is not dependent on him for income – if he doesn’t give her due respect, she can just walk out that door any time she wants. 2.) Ability to advocate on her behalf: Felicity is highly intelligent and makes valid arguments for the positions she advocates for, people respect her and she can influence them.

    Which brings me to #3 and here’s the problem: When I see Felicity resorting to “toddler-ese,” then I know the sense of powerlessness she feels is not b/c she can’t walk away from her Arrow-job or she does not have the skills/resources to advocate --- what I’m left with is that Felicity does not appreciate her own power; she is giving it away and she absolutely does not have to.

    S1 Felicity appreciated her own power (and just in case it wasn’t already clear from earlier, I am not talking about being arrogant here)
    I believe that in an earlier post you pointed out that what we all complained about as “Olicity pandering” by Ras’ was, in your view, merely an indication that he knew he was so powerful that he could afford to not take her seriously, he could be amused at Felicity as just a mere trifle when she came out fussing at him about Oliver…..

    Well, this is exactly what S1F was doing when Oliver showed up with his bullet-ridden laptop and gave her his lame excuse. She is amused. His excuse was so stupid that it could have been offensive. It could have been offensive that she was the type of person he thought he could lie to and it could have been offensive that she was the type of person that not only did he think he could lie to but also the type that he didn’t even feel the need to present a good lie to. But this is not the case: It doesn’t matter to her that he lies to her and it doesn’t even matter to her that he doesn’t at least try to give her a believable lie. That’s because his opinion about her intelligence and his belief in her credulity (his respect for her as it were…) is of no consequence to her. His opinion does not matter b/c she is secure enough in her opinion of herself. Nor does it matter to her that he is related to the CEO, that he is one of the Queens, b/c she is secure enough to appreciate her value as an employee. So that is why she could choose to be amused – b/c she appreciated her power.

    So when I see S3F pleading and crying with Oliver, I really miss the S1F who I think would have treated him very differently and been able to handle him from a position of strength rather than weakness. When she cries, she is failing to understand just how strong she is, just how much power she has, and I hate that for her. And again, this is not b/c it is not understandable that she would feel emotions that would lead her to feel like crying etc. It is b/c she is using “toddler-ese” as a communication style when she is attempting to negotiate/persuade Oliver of the rightness of her position. If she wants to get a good friend and go behind closed-doors and cry on that friend’s shoulder about how stubborn and controlling and dominating Oliver can be, fine. Just don’t use that style during the discussion with Oliver -- because she is better than that and she is not powerless – she has lots of other options for how to handle him!
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 08-07-2015 at 06:03 PM.

  15. #60
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    There's little doubt Felicity, within the Olicity story arc, experienced growth, self-awareness, understanding in an emotional sense, etc. While there is merit to this and in its relation to Ollie being aware that he cannot repeat history aka Maseo's and become the empty shell of a man by denying his feelings for Felicity -- it's the non-Olicity related stuff where I found that they could have done more with her, as in more about Felicity where all things Ollie aren't in the equation.

    And it's not like they were unaware that Felicity's characterization was in need of more meat on the bone, so to speak. The secret origin episode (and actually seeing that Felicity had a place/life outside the Arrowcave) was proof that they knew she needed more and it was a positive sign for her in S3 ... but it didn't seem to me that they reinforced this effort all that much. They opted to run with what to me is the easier (and admittedly, traditionally CW) route, which is relying on melodrama to do this work.

    It's not unique to Felicity re: the bane of melodrama-fueled characterization -- Laurel and Thea and a few others (including Ollie) have both been afflicted with it during the series' run. I just found that, when they scaled back the melodrama angst with Laurel and Thea, they used it as an opportunity to give them "better" growth in S3 however it may be defined. Becoming vigilantes was at the finish line but their journeys there could not have been more different. On the whole, these were the more interesting stories for me in S3. Roy had an accelerated version of this in the second half of S3, which I loved -- partly because I felt he was in dire need of this treatment by the mid-season finale.

    The arrival of Felicity's mom was also an opportunity that began well, but I felt that by the time she reappeared again her main purpose was to reinforce Olicity. I actually liked Donna and Felicity's scenes, but I would have preferred if it was less ship-related. What I'm saying is S4 Felicity needs more "Secret Origin"-type development and more Donna reinforcing Felicity herself as a character ... regardless of Olicity. They know what they need to do, it's just that the execution in S3 wasn't ideal to me.

    Did Felicity experience growth in some form in S3? Sure she did. Do I feel she experienced the sort of growth, like Laurel, Thea, (Roy!!!) etc. that would convince me that she's made comparable character development, beyond the realm of the Olicity bubble? I don't feel she has (yet) by S3's end, primarily because her characterization (arbitrarily, from late S2 and S3) was beholden to stoking and then sustaining Olicity.

    S3 Felicity just felt transitional to me, as she moved from just a supporting Arrow character role S1-S2 into a lead role in S3 and it was a bumpy journey for her. If we're fortunate, S4 could very well be her season to shine in the way I'm expecting it to be for Ollie.

    No doubt she's on her way, but I think/hope that it's S4 where reliance on shipping melodrama will be a much smaller factor in defining Felicity. It'll have to be, if they're essentially crafting an LOT prequel within the Arrow/Flash universe.

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