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  1. #16
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Ok you do realize that now you may have me wanting to actually write out that scene.
    I questioned it personally, because I found myself coming up with pretty insulting things to say about Oliver and Felicity.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I questioned it personally, because I found myself coming up with pretty insulting things to say about Oliver and Felicity.
    Well if you want to start ranting go ahead.

  3. #18
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Ah! Where to start? You all have given me so many jumping off points. I'm going to have to do research on a few things (aka rewatch the second half of Arrow) to properly address some of it but there were a few things I think I can comment on right now.

    One dress that always annoys me is the one she worse in Three Ghosts and in the Calm when both Barry and Ray show up. That's so not even appropriate for the job she works in and actually more of portrays her character in a negative light because it makes her kind of look like a hooker to be blunt about it. Again that's not the fault of the actress but of the wardrobe department.
    Are we talking about the boob window dress? Yeah, it was a weird choice the first time and then apparently they liked it so much they went out and got in in a different color.

    But perhaps it's more that affection from Felicity turns men into superheroes? Because it helped inspire Ray to finish his ATOM suit, Barry got hit by lightning, and [SPOILER] after five months with Felicity, Oliver will now become Green Arrow.[/SPOILER]
    Let's be fair, now. Felicity had nothing to do with Barry and the lightning. Ray was already on his way to building his suit before he tracked her down for help. Oliver, well I will give her points just like I give other people in his life since he returned from the "island". They are the ones that helped influence him and shape him. BUT again, Oliver is the one that decided that he could be something more than either the Arrow or Oliver Queen.

    That's way 'm kind of glad Bruce Wayne will probably never show up because I don't want him to get trapped under Felicity's Smoak's spell and plot required powers of needing to be in love with the IT girl or is it CEO of Palmer Tech these days.
    Careful if you wander into FanFic land. She's got him under her spell there already. But then so does my dear Chloe Sullivan, lol. Superhero catnip.
    Ok, I joke. But more seriously:
    Something else that weirds me out about the writing for Felicity : she came from saying "I finally have a guy who's interested in me and he's struck by lightning" in season 2 to having two billionaires superheroes in love with her at the same time a few months later.
    When we first met Felicity we didn't have any way to know about her dating life but once she joined Team Arrow, they showed her working days and nights and weekends too so the idea that she didn't have anytime to date anyone seemed pretty rational. Barry shows up in season two and we find out that she had not dated for probably longer than we thought and then her mom shows up and we find out that she really hasn't dated anyone since college.

    But given the circumstances, suddenly it makes a lot of sense. For one, she loved Cooper and not only did she think he died (what is with this show and boyfriends coming back from the dead?) she thought that he had KILLED himself 'cause he couldn't handle jail and she blamed herself for him being in jail. (Personally I hold him accountable for his own actions - he's the one that committed the theft by wiping the loan debts)

    The show timeline has her graduate and go right to Queen Industries which means that at the same time that Oliver was in his third year away from home, Felicity was just starting a job a QI. Two years later, he came back and soon after she was wrapped up in being very busy with TA stuff.

    So that means that her dry spell before there were external reasons why she wouldn't even have a chance to date is only about 2 and 1/2 years tops. Given that she'd JUST come off a really traumatic experience where she probably half believed that Cooper's love for her (not letting her take the fall for her virus) got him killed. That girl is not going to be dating anyone for a long while. Admiring cute dead guys in pictures was probably her only speed for a while.

    So let's say she recovered emotionally pretty fast and was ready to get out there after only a year. That only leaves a year and half really of her being dateless. That's not so hard to believe, especially when you add to it that we know she threw herself into the job. She was there less than three years and she was telling the head of the company (Walter) that she'd made herself the most valuable employee in the department which to me spells she was making work her life.

    Once she started spending time with Oliver, I'm sure even if she had the time, a lot of guys just wouldn't catch her attention anymore. Guys did notice her. One of the funniest scenes was toward the end of season one where she's undercover and Oliver joins her in the elevator and this guy joins them and starts giving her the once over and Oliver just tosses him out of the elevator. Now, I'm sure it had more to do with him getting in the way of the plan, but is was still hilarious.

    So the second part of the issue is that suddenly she's interested in/dating only heroes. Of course really, she isn't. Barry when he shows up is just a cute smart guy and her interest in him clearly shows that while she might very much appreciate a Ray or an Oliver type body, she's not limited to one type. She may have found two guys that like the salmon ladder but she loved Cooper and clearly was very attracted to him so she certainly isn't limited JUST by a rocking bod. Doesn't hurt though.

    Ray, when Felicity became interested in him, was smart, generous, had a lot of big ideas to help the world and looked like Superman, but he hadn't shared his hero-ing plans with her yet. So while it seems she only dates heroes, really she mostly dated Ray before the suit got any real action and Barry of course only ended up being a good friend. Oliver is her only hero ( and even when they rode off into the sunset at the end of the season she technically hadn't even dated him yet, lol. )

    My personal headcanon is that Ray projected his love for Anna onto Felicity, otherwise at best she was his rebound after his fiancé died. He did fall for her fast and hard in a manner that yeah, did make me wonder how much was really Felicity and how much was it really him wanting to be happy and in love again.

    Ray's love for her didn't ring true to me given the way he treated her once he found out who Oliver was. All his claims of trusting her and being a true partner, well, they all kind of went out the window the first time he was asked to actually trust her opinion.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 08-03-2015 at 10:32 PM.

  4. #19
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    This has always been an issue for me too. The occasional accidental sexual innuendo can be funny, but it's something that they've overused with Felicity
    If you think about it though, she really only suffered from foot in mouth disease over on the Flash. The scene with her and Ray and the line about Barry in Oliver's body were really cringe worthy, I mean really cringe worthy but I take comfort that they weren't her normal writers. Even in the second season the innuendo's had dropped off a lot, so at this point, I don't think it 's a huge characteristic of hers anymore to worry about.

    Out of time for now. Be back tomorrow I'm sure.

  5. #20
    avi by Keiko Neverending Story's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    When we first met Felicity we didn't have any way to know about her dating life but once she joined Team Arrow, they showed her working days and nights and weekends too so the idea that she didn't have anytime to date anyone seemed pretty rational. Barry shows up in season two and we find out that she had not dated for probably longer than we thought and then her mom shows up and we find out that she really hasn't dated anyone since college.

    But given the circumstances, suddenly it makes a lot of sense. For one, she loved Cooper and not only did she think he died (what is with this show and boyfriends coming back from the dead?) she thought that he had KILLED himself 'cause he couldn't handle jail and she blamed herself for him being in jail. (Personally I hold him accountable for his own actions - he's the one that committed the theft by wiping the loan debts)

    The show timeline has her graduate and go right to Queen Industries which means that at the same time that Oliver was in his third year away from home, Felicity was just starting a job a QI. Two years later, he came back and soon after she was wrapped up in being very busy with TA stuff.

    So that means that her dry spell before there were external reasons why she wouldn't even have a chance to date is only about 2 and 1/2 years tops. Given that she'd JUST come off a really traumatic experience where she probably half believed that Cooper's love for her (not letting her take the fall for her virus) got him killed. That girl is not going to be dating anyone for a long while. Admiring cute dead guys in pictures was probably her only speed for a while.

    So let's say she recovered emotionally pretty fast and was ready to get out there after only a year. That only leaves a year and half really of her being dateless. That's not so hard to believe, especially when you add to it that we know she threw herself into the job. She was there less than three years and she was telling the head of the company (Walter) that she'd made herself the most valuable employee in the department which to me spells she was making work her life.

    Once she started spending time with Oliver, I'm sure even if she had the time, a lot of guys just wouldn't catch her attention anymore. Guys did notice her. One of the funniest scenes was toward the end of season one where she's undercover and Oliver joins her in the elevator and this guy joins them and starts giving her the once over and Oliver just tosses him out of the elevator. Now, I'm sure it had more to do with him getting in the way of the plan, but is was still hilarious.
    But what she said was more like "Finally, a guy is interested in me but now he's struck by lightning." (paraphrase) than "I finally got interested in a guy again and he's struck by lightning."

    The way she phrased it and so by her own perception, she was more talking about the guy's POV than her own issues on why she was single.

    So the second part of the issue is that suddenly she's interested in/dating only heroes. Of course really, she isn't. Barry when he shows up is just a cute smart guy and her interest in him clearly shows that while she might very much appreciate a Ray or an Oliver type body, she's not limited to one type. She may have found two guys that like the salmon ladder but she loved Cooper and clearly was very attracted to him so she certainly isn't limited JUST by a rocking bod. Doesn't hurt though.

    Ray, when Felicity became interested in him, was smart, generous, had a lot of big ideas to help the world and looked like Superman, but he hadn't shared his hero-ing plans with her yet. So while it seems she only dates heroes, really she mostly dated Ray before the suit got any real action and Barry of course only ended up being a good friend. Oliver is her only hero ( and even when they rode off into the sunset at the end of the season she technically hadn't even dated him yet, lol. )
    No, it's not about the fact she is only interested in heroes.

    It's about the fact a woman who laments because she finally! found a guy interested in her finds herself a few months later in a position where she could choose between two rich! handsome! superheroes! in love with her.

    One, I could understand. But two? That becomes way less believable to me.

    And it's hard to find it relatable.
    Last edited by Neverending Story; 08-04-2015 at 08:53 AM.

  6. #21
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Once she started spending time with Oliver, I'm sure even if she had the time, a lot of guys just wouldn't catch her attention anymore. Guys did notice her. One of the funniest scenes was toward the end of season one where she's undercover and Oliver joins her in the elevator and this guy joins them and starts giving her the once over and Oliver just tosses him out of the elevator. Now, I'm sure it had more to do with him getting in the way of the plan, but is was still hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending Story View Post
    But what she said was more like "Finally, a guy is interested in me but now he's struck by lightning." (paraphrase) than "I finally got interested in a guy again and he's struck by lightning."

    The way she phrased it and so by her own perception, she was more talking about the guy's POV than her own issues on why she was single.
    I am always interested in audience interpretation. So, not to come down on any side in the debate but just to share how I would interpret hearing most women say this (I'm F; thinking of most F friends/colleagues I know) it would be keeping in mind that: we really don't necessarily want a guy to be interested in us that we are not in turn interested in. (ie feel some sense of attraction for or the possibility of....). If we're not interested in the guy, it's really nothing to be overly pleased about. Yes, it's flattering, but it becomes potentially problematic if the guy actually lets you know of his interest; then you have to figure out how to let him know his interest isn't reciprocated. Not b/c we're not intelligent and capable of communicating our disinterest, but b/c who likes to "reject" people? So, when I hear this, I take it that there is an unspoken subtext in that a guy [who I am interested in...or who I think I could be interested in...] is interested in me...finally! yay! I've been waiting for some good fortune in the romance department! Also, to me the word "finally" is very important (don't know if that is just present in paraphrase or is in original...) as it indicates that this is something that I have been waiting for.... obviously other M and F will interpret it differently than I have....

    Disclaimer: I am very biased against S3 Felicity so this should in no way be construed as a defense by me on her behalf....
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 08-04-2015 at 12:06 PM.

  7. #22
    Black Canary dreamsofnever's Avatar
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    Glad you made it over here, Bkwurm! I may not always (or often) agree, but I do enjoy reading your viewpoints. And I mean that sincerely.

    For what it's worth, I was joking about Felicity having a role in Barry becoming a hero. Though the choice on the part of the writers to have his last bit of inspiration needed to finish the suit come after sleeping with her was an odd one.

    And I agree with you that Ray projected his love for Anna onto Felicity. I think that he genuinely had feelings for her for who she was, but I also think that he fell fast because he was still grieving the woman that he was going to marry. I don't think that it was right for Felicity to lead him on when she knew what he'd lost and knew how he felt, and I really wish that she'd been the one to be mature and end the relationship and be honest about her feelings for Oliver. I don't think that she deliberately used him, but I do think that she demonstrated a lack of emotional intelligence in recognizing just how much she was leading him on. Though I do believe that he was the man that she WANTED to want. He was the 'perfect on paper' guy (not saying he was perfect, but he offered her things that she felt Oliver wouldn't and he was smart, etc) And while it's not fair to judge her based on her handling by writers that weren't the regular Arrow writers, I think that line about 'Barry's mind, Oliver's body' boiled down exactly the issue with Felicity's treatment of Ray. She looked at him as a series of characteristics (hot, smart, willing to listen and share with her) and didn't actually give much thought to who he was at his heart and didn't actually care for him beyond those more superficial characteristics.

  8. #23
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    Glad you made it over here, Bkwurm! I may not always (or often) agree, but I do enjoy reading your viewpoints. And I mean that sincerely.
    Agree. I think the first post is very well thought out, makes some good points and an enjoyable read. Looking forward to more....

  9. #24
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    =JDBentz;8130879] But on the other, there are aspects of the character which simply make it more difficult to like her when it comes to her involvement on the team and with Oliver himself. She originally joined more to help find Walter, and then she was focused on helping people. That was great, and I loved the character. This season, she made it obvious her reason for being on the team was for Oliver's sake, no one else's.
    This is an idea that I do directly object to. I simply find it unsupported by her behavior.

    We see her completely opposed to Oliver’s choices re Malcolm and still being on the team - how is that her only being there for Olivert? How is it that Felicity is the one that gave Laurel her pep talk and Felicity is the one to rally Roy and Diggle when they were walking away from the team - when Oliver was supposed to be dead -- support that? How does Felicity’s continued work with the team when she thought Oliver was lost to the LoA support that?

    She didn’t want Oliver dead in the final episode and yeah, for like ten seconds considered him above the city but even those ten seconds of being human come AFTER locating the virus putting the city at risk in the first place. Then she found a way to save Oliver too without any risk to the city. Tell me, why does ten seconds of Felicity’s concern for Oliver’s imminent death translate into not caring about the city but Oliver actually leaving his post to intercept the actual virus that was going to destroy thousands of lives elicit absolutely no comment? Diggle eventually took care of this other virus carrier but I think it should be noted Oliver's guy was taken down well after the others. Oliver took a huge risk. How many more did die cause that carrier wandered around a little longer? So Oliver took to how many lives? Felicity didn’t end of risking ANY lives but her own and yet her feet are held to the fire. I don’t get it.



    I don't care how you shake it, the team has handled threats without Oliver before, and had a chance to deal with Brick and his men at the evidence lock-up. Or have we forgotten that both Oliver's and Roy's suits have kevlar in them like Malcolm's did, and I just don't see Diggle not wearing kevlar to go out and fight bad guys. So when Felicity closed the door behind Brick and his men, she was already metaphorically turning her back on the mission, and then did so again once they returned.
    One, Oliver’s “death” was just that day confirmed so Felicity being extra concerned about the rest of her team not dying is pretty reasonable. Two, the Kevlar doesn’t protect heads or lower bodies. Three, in just a few episodes when Oliver returns he is in nearly exactly the same situation and he stops and lets the vehicle go. He DOES NOT even try to catch the vehicle or shoot after it. He stops. He knew he couldn't catch it, which IMO supports Felicity's judgment on the circumstances. Roy and Dig were in trouble and they were about to take a risk that by Oliver’s example says would not have paid off.

    Would they have been shot and killed if she hadn’t closed that door making the choice of their lives over the IMO (and hers and Oliver's) impossible chance that they could have caught that truck? I think it would have come down to how badly the bad guys wanted them dead. Nothing else was going to keep them alive.

    In the end she made a judgement call to keep the safe and even if I thought that Felicity didn’t make the reasonable call, the reasoning behind it wasn’t about abandoning the mission, it was about not letting any more people in her life that she loved die. Plus, everyone dead on the team kind of makes the mission moot.

    Let's talk further about even if one still thinks Dig and Roy were right about being able to handle it. I think it is fair to take into account her emotional headspace right there. We are talking about how in the space of just a couple months an awful lot of five star crap happens to Felicity. Let's start low with getting her heart broken when Oliver takes his back. Then Sara dies, Cooper – the boy she loved that she thought killed himself in part to something she did comes back evil and tried to kill her an her mother and on top of those blows Oliver again tells her he loves her and goes off to near certain death which is then confirmed THAT DAY and she just watched Dig and Roy come THIS close to also dying while she was helpless to do anything. BUT once she was able to do something to prevent them from further risk, she takes it.

    She argues with them about it when they return. Not only doesn't she deserve slack about saving her friends (one way or the other), doesn’t she also deserve a little slack for turning of the lights and walking away when they got mad at her for what she sees as saving their lives? She was back in less than a week and this time she was the one getting the band back together as they were the ones walking away. I'm not holding it against them for wanting to hang it up, so I'm not going to be upset with Felicity either.


    Now, Felicity did continue working on Team Arrow afterward, but almost immediately began picking fights with anyone who suggested something her idealized version of Oliver wouldn't do, even when it was Oliver himself who would do it.
    I think Felicity has always had a very realistic and pragmatic view of Oliver…unless you are talking about the part where she said she’s kind of seen him as a hero since season one? Some would say that since he was still killing he couldn't be considered a hero, but that's probably a different subject. Otherwise she’s always encouraged him to do more (Ep 1-15 “Hasn’t ever occurred to you that you could do some real good in this city?”) while also coming to a place of understanding with the body count. She asks him about why the change in Ep2-1 and he explains about Tommy which was why he initially wasn’t going to take up the hood again. She doesn’t try to change his new convictions, she encourages him to then find another way to both honor Tommy and be the Hood.

    When Oliver felt he had no choice but to kill the first Count Vertigo, she felt bad about being the reason that he went against his stance and yet when Slade had Thea and Oliver wanted to go and face him and kill him, it was Felicity that recognized that this was another case where even though Oliver wanted to not be a killer, he needed at least to have it as an option. (Ep 2-18 “Go. Do whatever it takes. End this once and for all.”) But then when at the end of the season Oliver once again doesn’t want to resort to killing Slade (I think mostly cause THAT went so well the first time around) she again supports him then to find another way. She goes along with a plan that puts her life at severe risk so Oliver can do what he feels is right. She supports his choice. Now, when he wanted to sacrifice his life and turn himself over to Slade she and Dig tranqued his butt. They don't always bow to Oliver's choices.


    Oliver had already shown a willingness to work with those they considered enemies in the past, so the idea of working with Merlyn was one he would have probably accepted in 3x12 if he had been present, which Roy knew.
    Roy knew squat. His opinion about Malcolm flipped flopped more often than a fish out of water depending on the episode. He was just worried about being outmanned (cause this is his concern still after they voted no to MM) Even in his argument as to why they should accept MM help, when Felicity said Oliver wouldn’t do it, Roy didn't say she was wrong, just that Oliver wasn’t there and they needed to figure out it for themselves.

    Diggle, I think is a better indicator of what under normal circumstances Oliver would do and accepting MM help with Brick was IMO not going to happen because the circumstances were still too normal. Hard yes, but MM was just more firepower. Brute strength. He didn’t have any special knowledge or anything intrinsic to him alone like he did later with knowing the LoA stuff. IMO and in the teams, another set of hands fighting just wasn’t good enough justification for letting their code drop to accept help from the enemy.

    And Malcolm wasn’t just some enemy. Dig might have been willing to work with the Deadshot, the man that killed his brother but Deadshot was only the tool, not the reason Andy was dead. DS was just a cog so still a hell of a lot personal but not in the same way as Malcolm. This is the guy ultimately responsible for Tommy and another 500 lives from the Glades. The man that turned Oliver’s sister into an unwitting murderer. The man that killed Laurel’s sister. AND the man behind why Oliver was currently “dead.”.

    That ANY of them considered it IMO shows how emotionally compromised and scared and desperate they were, but in the end the team chose to not to let their fears get the better of them. They outvoted Roy and that included Laurel’s vote.

    (Ep3-12 L to Dig “WE made the right choice, by refusing Merlyn’s help, right?” He replies “I don’t know if we made the right choice Laurel but we did the right thing.” And why did they refuse his help? Diggle to MM “Once we let the ends justify the means that’s just the first step.” Towards what? Asks Malcolm. “Becoming you.” )

    Oliver came back and announced that he was going to work with Merlyn. The show just flat out told the audience not working with MM was the right thing. MM is EVIL! He’s why they were in the mess with Brick in the first place (Void left with no Oliver) Yes, Felicity expected better of Oliver. And she let him know. I agree that she was disillusioned with Oliver but not because she idealized him.

    She was absolutely deeply disappointed (and angry) with his choice. He was as Diggle said to Malcolm, taking that first slippery step of letting the ends justify the means. Diggle still hasn’t forgiven him for that kind of thinking. Diggle doesn’t know if he can even trust Oliver anymore after Oliver decided to work with Malcolm and trust him over his team. Felicity has at least forgiven him, but she’s the one accused of flipping out if he didn’t stick to an idealized image. I think they both had good reason to be angry and disappointed.

    She was furious at Oliver's behavior and yeah, she thought he wouldn’t do that. She also didn’t think he’d leave them to think they were going to die of a super virus and he did that too. Oliver did same really crappy stuff in season three ( including protecting Malcolm in the first place cause if he’d just let the LoA have him in EP3-4, then NONE of all the rest of the bad stuff would have happened) that left I think a lot in the audience disappointed at his behavior too.

    This continued on through the latter half of the season, with Felicity constantly saying stuff like, "Excuse me? I could swear you just said 'rescue Merlyn'?"
    Is it fair to characterize Felicity as picking fights just because she has a strong disagreement with Oliver over that same subject as before? She’s still mad at him. Mad at him for disrespecting Sara’s memory. Mad at him for being probably in her opinion (and mine) disloyal to Thea. Mad at him for being unwilling to risk really living.

    Then when it is THEA that is good with letting Malcolm pay the piper he most certainly owed, (and ending the blood debt that put her and Oliver at risk) Oliver is now going to risk his life (something that really upset his sister that he says he's doing everything for) to save the murderer that had been ruining all their lives (the murderer that she’s fine with getting the justice he deserves - Oliver's certainty that she was making a mistake is the only reason she questioned her actions). Such behavior IMO deserved at the very least an incredulous question.

    And all Felicity does is question Oliver about it. Earlier we have Laurel actually trying to kill MM even though Oliver is so sure he needs his help. Once Oliver is captured even he realizes he’s been acting out of pride and fear and not reason. Why is Felicity’s willingness to not save the mass murderer Malcolm and her incredulousness over Oliver not taking the solution to all their problems when it dropped in their lap, so shocking?

    Plus, it’s not like she didn’t help Oliver at least try to keep him from being abducted. She clearly only tracked his location at the airfield because it was important to Oliver so she was willing to support his "grey morals" if it was still within the bounds of sanity. But Oliver going to Nanda Parbat and AGAIN going up against the LoA and this time ALL of the LoA, yeah she was kind of upset that he wanted to fly off and get himself killed.

    Considering her continual problems with Oliver's morally gray choices and the fact that he clearly keeping secrets from her (Malcolm as Ra's waves at Felicity) I just don't see the relationship surviving.
    I agree that they need to have a few conversations but who's to say they don't?

    The thing, is Felicity is just fine with a whole lot of his morally grey choices. Killing when needed, going outside the law, hacking (that's her grey I suppose) teaming up with Nyssa in a fight with Slade and the Mirikuru army to name a few) She was not fine with him working with Malcolm. She was upset about it and would have made different choices and wanted Oliver to make different choices. And that was her right to feel that way. She thought Oliver would have felt the same way and interestingly, we find out when Oliver and Diggle talk in Nanda Parbat that he has not been anywhere near himself since he got back, that he’ let Ra’s get in his head. Had he been in different circumstances and not so messed up about Ra’s, he may have likely made different choices. (this is all pre having to become Ra’s stuff of course)

    Felicity did not approve of Oliver’s choices in regards to Malcolm which only got worse and worse but she found a way to come to terms with it and forgave him, probably because she loves him and does understand his reasoning - even if she doesn't agree with it. In the end, Diggle is the one that is unable to move past Oliver acting in a way he was sure Oliver would never act. It's not a case of putting Oliver on an idealized pedestal but a case of Oliver doing things and making some real brutal choices that crossed lines that even Oliver didn't expect forgiveness for. He was betraying his own ideals, but he thought it was the only way he could succeed, to fight alone to the death. Fortunately Oliver realized finally he had another option.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 08-05-2015 at 04:31 AM.

  10. #25
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I really dislike the fact that Felicity has now been forced into three lucrative jobs by men that were a love interest for her. We have the executive assistant job in season two, the VP job in season 3, and the upcoming CEO job in season 4. I really want to see some agency and see what she WANTS career-wise in the upcoming season. And since they're rolling with the CEO thing, I want to see her passionate about that. I don't want to see her running the company just because she didn't look at what she was signing.
    I’m going to withhold my judgment on her owning Palmer Tech until I see how it plays out. It’s an absurd development but oddly seems like something Ray would do. Still, we don’t know what Felicity thinks about it so I can’t say if she is being forced or not. She’d have other options if she really didn’t want it I would think. So wait and see on that.

    Felicity had every reason to be upset about the EA job. Maybe others saw it as a promotion but she clearly didn’t…but really it was just her disguise. Her true career at that point was crime fighting with her team.

    I actually disagree about her being forced to take the job as VP. She was surprised by the rank of the position but I don’ t think Felicity considered it her only option. Ray absolutely was trying to force it but even when he bought out the company she was already working at, he couldn’t force her to work for him as proved when she quit.

    In the end, Felicty chose to take the big paying job with all sorts of perks. Season two had her giving up her IT job for the disguise of EA to the CEO (I think that was Oliver’s title) Team Arrow was her only real career. In Ep3-2 where Oliver tells her he expects to die down there in the dark just like Sara, Felicity refuses to wait around with him and choses something more. That translated to her taking the job offer from Ray. Now we have her having something just her own, the VP position AND her job with Team Arrow. She’s working two careers.

    The other reason why I don’t see Felicity as forced against her will with Palmer Tech is that she is perfectly willing to quit which she almost does when Ray was keeping something from her. (Hence “Why does this keep happening to me?” )

    Felicity feeling perfectly free to leave the job it wasn’t going how she liked and only taking it when it fit with what she wanted and needed, for those reasons, I don’t see it as forced on her.

    I also really dislike the fact that they seem to dumb down other characters to prop her up. Even the STAR labs team over on the Flash seems to have a hard time doing certain computer-related things unless they have Felicity to help, and that bugs me.
    I really enjoy how Felicity and the STAR lab’s team have relied on each other’s skills. Felicity goes to Caitlyn for Sara’s DNA and to Cysco (I am in this moment totally blanking on the spelling)the high tech Boomerang (and introduces Ray to him too). In turn, she tweaks their system and add facial recognition. She’s computers, and they are high tech mechanisms and all stuff organic. Seemed pretty balanced. They are all geniuses, just they also have their individual niches where they shine a bit brighter.
    And her being so vital in Ray building his suit was not my favorite thing either. I'd like to see the show present her as smart without having to take other characters down a peg or two.
    Since she’s the regular character on the show and Ray is just the visitor I think it’s backwards to see it as him going down a peg or two to prop her up. She’s the established character. We know nothing about his intellect prowess for it to be knocked down before the show establishes that Felicity is better with computers than him. She’s the one that made it possible for him to access Queen Industries real numbers. Then we find out Ray wants her because he has some data he’s been told is unrecoverable by just about anyone else. It’s not dinging his intellect since this is the first time we are finding out what his intellect is.

    Then later when he asks her to work on the suit with him, we see her solving problems that fall in her skill set while he makes other things happen and then they both bow to Cysco for working out the final bugs.

    I commented right after My Name is Oliver Queen aired how well they balanced Felicity and Ray’s brain power in that episode. First she made a break through that she was already working on when it occurred to him and then later he’s the one already working on reprograming his nanites when it occurs to Felicity. They showed them pretty balanced to me.

  11. #26
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    Because she has constantly proven that she wants Oliver to herself and doesn't even want him out there being a vigilante.
    Huh? Oliver is the one that decided to leave and go find himself. Felicity agreed to go with him, but she never urged to quit. At the start of season two he had also quit and she and Diggle drag him back and she’s refitted and upgraded the whole foundry and she’s the one that urged him to find another way so that he could get back out there. I don’t see when she’s ever wanted him to quit.

    I highly suspect she's not going to be very happy with Oliver suiting up in 40X1.
    I'd put my money down on that not being the case, lol. I suppose I have an advantage with that bet [SPOILER] since they've already spoiled it’s Felicity that misses their life in Starling. Oliver is perfectly content. [/SPOILER]

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    [=Neverending Story;8130975]But what she said was more like "Finally, a guy is interested in me but now he's struck by lightning." (paraphrase) than "I finally got interested in a guy again and he's struck by lightning."

    The way she phrased it and so by her own perception, she was more talking about the guy's POV than her own issues on why she was single.
    Well, I guess I just saw it as the guys that might have gotten her interest once she was finally interested in being interested weren't prior to that point interested in her. She's a bit on the quirky side so not just anyone is going to be a match.

    Just going back to my breakdown of her probably not even having time to date as of season one, I was reminded that she express to Oliver in Ep1-18 that maybe it’s good to stay single and alone, because she wouldn’t know how to tell her significant other about her day. (To which Oliver volunteers to be that guy she tells about her day) That supports that she had reason not to push dating very hard. Barry of course comes after Oliver gives her the "Because the life I lead" speech so maybe that prompted her to be more open to finding someone. Less confusing that way.


    No, it's not about the fact she is only interested in heroes.

    It's about the fact a woman who laments because she finally! found a guy interested in her finds herself a few months later in a position where she could choose between two rich! handsome! superheroes! in love with her.

    One, I could understand. But two? That becomes way less believable to me.
    If it was real life I'd agree it's a stretch but since the only other single men she even spoke to in season three besides Ray that weren't old enough to be her father were Roy and Cysco, I'll just roll with that like I do Arrow s are more effective than guns. The superhero thing is kind of the same thing. She just isn't getting any chance to meet anyone but those in the biz. If I need less meta reasons, well, she's smart and pretty and kind so why wouldn't any guy consider if she's his type or not?


    And it's hard to find it relatable.
    I guess that's just not high on my priority list for a superhero show.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    I am always interested in audience interpretation. So, not to come down on any side in the debate but just to share how I would interpret hearing most women say this (I'm F; thinking of most F friends/colleagues I know) it would be keeping in mind that: we really don't necessarily want a guy to be interested in us that we are not in turn interested in. (ie feel some sense of attraction for or the possibility of....). If we're not interested in the guy, it's really nothing to be overly pleased about. Yes, it's flattering, but it becomes potentially problematic if the guy actually lets you know of his interest; then you have to figure out how to let him know his interest isn't reciprocated. Not b/c we're not intelligent and capable of communicating our disinterest, but b/c who likes to "reject" people? So, when I hear this, I take it that there is an unspoken subtext in that a guy [who I am interested in...or who I think I could be interested in...] is interested in me...finally! yay! I've been waiting for some good fortune in the romance department! Also, to me the word "finally" is very important (don't know if that is just present in paraphrase or is in original...) as it indicates that this is something that I have been waiting for.... obviously other M and F will interpret it differently than I have....

    Disclaimer: I am very biased against S3 Felicity so this should in no way be construed as a defense by me on her behalf....
    I wish I had read your post before I responded since it's pretty much what I said, lol. Still, your disclaimer is dully (and continually noted).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    Agree. I think the first post is very well thought out, makes some good points and an enjoyable read.
    Thanks!

    Looking forward to more...
    I guess this is the point where I say "be carful of what you wish for" Truth is I knew how long my posts were going to get. It's why I put off answering the first big post until now. Because of occasional site issues (eating my post) I typed it up in Word first. Four nearly solid pages just in the reply to JDBents. My apologies to you all and kudos if you actually get through them all.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    Glad you made it over here, Bkwurm! I may not always (or often) agree, but I do enjoy reading your viewpoints. And I mean that sincerely.
    Aww! Thanks!

    For what it's worth, I was joking about Felicity having a role in Barry becoming a hero. Though the choice on the part of the writers to have his last bit of inspiration needed to finish the suit come after sleeping with her was an odd one.
    I remind myself that Ray also showered, ate and rested because otherwise what the writers imply, just ehww. Then the dude doesn't even mention his breakthrough. If we have to go there at least give credit where credit is due.
    I think that line about 'Barry's mind, Oliver's body' boiled down exactly the issue with Felicity's treatment of Ray. She looked at him as a series of characteristics (hot, smart, willing to listen and share with her) and didn't actually give much thought to who he was at his heart and didn't actually care for him beyond those more superficial characteristics.[
    I think his declaration caught her as off guard as Olive's first "fake" one did. (Jello anyone?) I think it's fair to say that she cared for him and yeah, hoped the liking might turn into something more but they had only been dating for a relatively short time before he said he loved her. I know Oliver and Felicity haven't even accomplished a full date but they did have lots and lots of time to get to know each other before she started hearing it from him. At the stage they (Ray and Felicity) were in their relationship, Felicity not having super super deep feelings would have been fine and reasonable except for finding out that he did have those feelings (or thought he did).

    The network really messed the timeline up between Arrow and The Flash and for those that didn't know the official timeline with the Flash episode actually having happened time wise the week before it was aired in regards to Arrow, well, their relationship had to be as confusing as this sentence I typed.

    They should have IMO let Felicity break up with Ray at least by the end of 3-19 but then they couldn't have had their scene where Ray SEES that Felicity is in love with Oliver and then takes himself out of the picture so that his character is handed his super duper good guy halo for when he goes off to his own show. Sure, make the character that is going to always actually be on the show look a bit wishy washy for not doing it herself when she knew it wasn't going to lead anywhere but hey, they pulled the same crap on Oliver last year by having Sara do the breaking up. And McKenna too now that I think about it. Shado didn't have that luxury.

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