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Why would Eobard cease to exist?

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  • #16
    @ Scream: A "singularity" is a singularity, whether it is in the real world or in fiction, they're one and the same, a region so dense that it's gravitational pull is (to all extents) ifinite. A region where the very concept of "time" no longer exists because "time" is infinitely long.

    A "black hole" is a "clothed singularity" in that the infinitely dense point is "hidden" from the rest of the universe by an "outer event horizon" (for want of a better analogy, a whirlpool). (All black holes rotate).

    A "naked singularity" is an infinitely dense point that is not hidden. Usually because due to the laws of physics, the "black hole" (or whirlpool) has evaporated away. Microscopic sized black holes would (in theory) take billions of years for their whirpool to "evaporate", so one can imagine how long it would take a black hole that was once a star, to evaporate, (almost infinitely long).

    In our universe, scientists/astronomers/physicists have only known of one "naked singularity" and that was the one that coughed out our entire universe.

    A wormhole is similar to a black hole, except that it would in theory allow 2 way travel. Go in one end, and come out somewhere completely different. However, the gravity around the exit (and entrance) would be so extreme that any wormhole should in practice collapse in on itself and form a black hole instead of a wormhole.

    Furthermore, in the episode, time is NOT collapsing in on itself. There is even a precedent in the tv show for this to NOT be the case.

    Cisco !!

    He STILL remembers the events in the timeline that Barry changed. By all rights, if the RF has been erased, or that timeline erased, Cisco shouldn't have those memories. BUT, he DOES have them. This means that THAT timeline STILL exists and is merrily going along its path.

    Time is therefore not collapsing in on itself, the wormhole/singularity/black hole/ is merely the end product of Eobard's plan/experiment. All is "working as intended".

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    • #17
      Originally posted by speople
      @ Scream: A "singularity" is a singularity, whether it is in the real world or in fiction, they're one and the same, a region so dense that it's gravitational pull is (to all extents) ifinite. A region where the very concept of "time" no longer exists because "time" is infinitely long.

      A "black hole" is a "clothed singularity" in that the infinitely dense point is "hidden" from the rest of the universe by an "outer event horizon" (for want of a better analogy, a whirlpool). (All black holes rotate).

      A "naked singularity" is an infinitely dense point that is not hidden. Usually because due to the laws of physics, the "black hole" (or whirlpool) has evaporated away. Microscopic sized black holes would (in theory) take billions of years for their whirpool to "evaporate", so one can imagine how long it would take a black hole that was once a star, to evaporate, (almost infinitely long).

      In our universe, scientists/astronomers/physicists have only known of one "naked singularity" and that was the one that coughed out our entire universe.

      A wormhole is similar to a black hole, except that it would in theory allow 2 way travel. Go in one end, and come out somewhere completely different. However, the gravity around the exit (and entrance) would be so extreme that any wormhole should in practice collapse in on itself and form a black hole instead of a wormhole.

      Furthermore, in the episode, time is NOT collapsing in on itself. There is even a precedent in the tv show for this to NOT be the case.

      Cisco !!

      He STILL remembers the events in the timeline that Barry changed. By all rights, if the RF has been erased, or that timeline erased, Cisco shouldn't have those memories. BUT, he DOES have them. This means that THAT timeline STILL exists and is merrily going along its path.

      Time is therefore not collapsing in on itself, the wormhole/singularity/black hole/ is merely the end product of Eobard's plan/experiment. All is "working as intended".
      Finally, someone who speaks English!

      Not sure about you guys, but this episode put a serious damper on my excitement for Legends of Tomorrow

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by speople
        In a way, you're thinking just a little too small there. RF didn't just create an alternate timeline when he got stuck in the past, he created an entire universe along with it. The singularity won't eat up that, just as the few discovered singularities out there that astronomers have discovered of 12 billion and upwards solar masses haven't "eaten" our universe. The show's singularity, is, by comparison, practically microscopic.

        In the tv show, just as in the non made film, Eobard rigged the "experiment" so that after he was "gone" by whatever means, the wormhole would re-open anyway nd devour the planet. Exacting his final and fatal revenge on Barry and everyone else. (I'm sure I read that in the script).
        From Pages 110 and 111 of The Flash movie script:

        INT. ACCELERATOR - RESUMING

        THAWNE
        Something I’m good at, getting
        people to realize their potential.
        Like you. I needed you to run...
        so I could steal your speed.

        The Accelerator hits 80%... 85%... Thawne moves towards
        the Track, Flash grabs him -- THROWS him back.


        THAWNE
        That’s why I never killed you,
        Barry. I needed you alive. I
        needed you to keep running. So
        that I could.

        Thawne strikes -- Flash ducks it -- faster. A better
        match this time as they SPEED FIGHT.

        BARRY
        The Accelerator -- it’ll rip open
        a black hole -- it’ll destroy
        everything -- You’d destroy this
        world just to get home?

        THAWNE
        No. This universe.

        ---
        My point of pulling these snippets is to show how similar and how different the originally planned movie and the show are. The broad strokes are there, and I feel that these strokes were vastly improved in the TV show.

        And yes, I am referring to the world-eating event at the end of the finale as a "singularity" only because the show was. But then, that was the term used by the character that was explaining the coincidence of Eddie and Eobard working "in the same building" and "the same profession" earlier in the episode...

        It was not yet stated what caused this event on the show (e.g., a throwaway line like "Wells must have set a fail-safe, to trigger another wormhole after he left..."), so we shouldn't assume that is was RF's doing because the unproduced movie script that formed the basis of this season says so.

        However, I also believed that the "Eddie killing himself" plan wouldn't work when KneelBeforeZimmer suggested it because Eobard/Wells did imply that he was from an alternate timeline (e.g. the "my world... my time" line in "Out of Time" and now this week with his "A future, yes" line in "Fast Enough"). But since we all saw that it did work, I am hoping there will be an explanation for that and the temporal causalities that follow as we rocket to season 2.

        Here's hoping.

        And isn't it interesting that right after Eddie shot himself, RF pleaded to Cisco to "help" him? Curious if that statement was just reflexive, or something more...

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        • #19
          The movie script has no bearing on my interpretation of the show.... At all. They've had a lot of time to change things and have different priorities now. Referencing the movie is fun, but is not even remotely relevant.

          If Cisco's explanation is accurate and the timelines don't affect each other, there's a flaw in the script. But we don't even know if Cisco is right yet .

          There are multiple ways this CAN work. The only question is if they explained their way out of all of those possibilities.

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          • #20
            @ Kneel: Thx for the compliment.

            @ Others, we don't, as yet, know if ET/HW/RF was in fact, actually "erased" at all. He could have jumped/dissipated into the speedforce. Being "erased" was merely Cisco's interpretation, and that interpretation is not necessarily the correct one.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by speople
              @ Kneel: Thx for the compliment.

              @ Others, we don't, as yet, know if ET/HW/RF was in fact, actually "erased" at all. He could have jumped/dissipated into the speedforce. Being "erased" was merely Cisco's interpretation, and that interpretation is not necessarily the correct one.
              The timing of the event suggests a correlation between him dissipating and Eddie killing himself. He may not be erased but one event affected the other quite clearly. Thus, they must be connected, even if Eobard is from a different timeline.

              Comment


              • #22
                dont take it seriously.

                this is why you never intro time travel as a main theme. it can never make sense youll always find a paradox.
                you could ask yourself what Barry has to gain by saving his mother and then jumping back to the present timeline....the barry in the past benefits from his mum being alive, not current barry!

                just have to roll with it when it comes to time travel.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by speople
                  @ Scream: A "singularity" is a singularity, whether it is in the real world or in fiction, they're one and the same, a region so dense that it's gravitational pull is (to all extents) ifinite. A region where the very concept of "time" no longer exists because "time" is infinitely long.

                  A "black hole" is a "clothed singularity" in that the infinitely dense point is "hidden" from the rest of the universe by an "outer event horizon" (for want of a better analogy, a whirlpool). (All black holes rotate).

                  A "naked singularity" is an infinitely dense point that is not hidden. Usually because due to the laws of physics, the "black hole" (or whirlpool) has evaporated away. Microscopic sized black holes would (in theory) take billions of years for their whirpool to "evaporate", so one can imagine how long it would take a black hole that was once a star, to evaporate, (almost infinitely long).

                  In our universe, scientists/astronomers/physicists have only known of one "naked singularity" and that was the one that coughed out our entire universe.

                  A wormhole is similar to a black hole, except that it would in theory allow 2 way travel. Go in one end, and come out somewhere completely different. However, the gravity around the exit (and entrance) would be so extreme that any wormhole should in practice collapse in on itself and form a black hole instead of a wormhole.

                  Furthermore, in the episode, time is NOT collapsing in on itself. There is even a precedent in the tv show for this to NOT be the case.

                  Cisco !!

                  He STILL remembers the events in the timeline that Barry changed. By all rights, if the RF has been erased, or that timeline erased, Cisco shouldn't have those memories. BUT, he DOES have them. This means that THAT timeline STILL exists and is merrily going along its path.

                  Time is therefore not collapsing in on itself, the wormhole/singularity/black hole/ is merely the end product of Eobard's plan/experiment. All is "working as intended".
                  Out of curiosity though, I thought a white hole is supposed to be what created the universe. I know both white and black holes have singularities, but this "naked singularity" that you're talking about sounds like it absorbs matter like a black hole, instead of releasing matter like a white hole.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by strike101
                    this is why you never intro time travel as a main theme.
                    Um, Doctor Who seems to be doing pretty okay with it. Quantum Leap was also a neat show. Back to the Future was fun, also.

                    Time travel is a lot of fun to talk about, even when we find "flaws" in the fictional application.

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                    • #25
                      Fringe has a ton of similarities to the flash. We just are not sure if two versions of Barry's exist or not. Meaning that future Barry timeline exists.

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                      • #26
                        you say all this as if cisco has a firm handle on his ablilities or that even if he did he had enough screen time between the singularity opening and the end of the episode to explain what is going on. And yeah cisco has "memories" of the other timelines, that does not mean that "that timeline" still exists, the barry allen from that timeline came back, erasing the barry of the timeline where the tidal wave hit and changing the past. I understand the theory where every action creates a new line, similar to "schroedingers cat", maybe cisco remembers because he was the cat in this scenerio. as thawne said he can sense changes in vibration of time, he never said he could remember any other timeline that he has not experienced personally otherwise he would be dreaming all the time of killer frost caitlyn or barry in prison etc.. think of it this way, when barry went to the past, for a brief second both barrys existed, the one from the future coming back, overwrote past barry and past barry no longer existed, when eddie killed himself for a bit harrison wells version of rf was there, then he reverted to his original self, then he disappeared slowly.. if the changes to the past are not instant but take a minute it makes sense, look at where this destruction is being caused! right over the particle accelerator..the one that shouldnt have been built yet UNLESS Eobard Thawne created it, the buildings being destroyed! might just be getting reverted to the original state, surey they needed repaired after the particle accelerator next door blew up! Again im gonna go ahead and say it, it is time resetting itself.. next season i see barry going through different timelines fighting new enemys in other timelines but when he does finally get back to his it is changed...

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