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  1. #1861
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    One guy (won't say which outlet, but it's a major metropolitan US paper, so it's not some joe schmo but an allegedly legit review) asserted that Ollie "avoided killing people" for three seasons and his killing of Darhk wiped out all his "progress". Huh? Ever heard of S1, or all the time he was in exile? The man has been dropping bodies for years. S3 may have been the closest to being a kill-free zone, that's it. If they want to criticize Ollie opting to kill as a last resort again, fine, but at least get the facts straight about it. If they want to fairly criticize a show, at least watch the damn thing before you slam it.
    Saw that and it was a bit of a head scratcher for me at first, that it seemed he was overlooking all the carnage in S1. I think he was counting S4 as a season without killing, until the finale that is. So if he starts his count w/ S2, S3, and then S4 (until finale) that would be 3. This is not a comment from me on whether I agree S2-S4 was Ollie-killing-free, but just a comment on where I think this guy got his "3 seasons without killing" from. Makes more sense to me that that is how he is counting, rather than that he would be totally clueless about S1 Ollie's character. Just how I see it.

  2. #1862
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    One guy (won't say which outlet, but it's a major metropolitan US paper, so it's not some joe schmo but an allegedly legit review) asserted that Ollie "avoided killing people" for three seasons and his killing of Darhk wiped out all his "progress". Huh? Ever heard of S1, or all the time he was in exile? The man has been dropping bodies for years. S3 may have been the closest to being a kill-free zone, that's it. If they want to criticize Ollie opting to kill as a last resort again, fine, but at least get the facts straight about it. If they want to fairly criticize a show, at least watch the damn thing before you slam it.
    It seems, based off of what you're saying, that that person was counting season 2, 3 and 4. But even tht's not really correct. Oliver was complicit in the deaths of those Russian guards, killed Count Vertigo, Cyrus Gold, that guy while he was being trained by Ra's and Ra's himself. Not to mention, I'd count as at least partially responsible for everything Malcolm and Anarky did after he handed the keys to the LOA over to a terrorist/the murderer of over 500 people and broke a psychopath out of police custody and let him loose onto the streets to do his bidding. But I don't think the members of the general audience take the same time to remember those things.
    And I think the finale, in its admittedly clumsy way, made this point about Ollie needing to strike a balance between these two worlds. Would have sold it better had Ollie not so easily resorted to "dropping bodies" after Felicity's shooting earlier in the season, but this goes back to its usual problems with plotting, fanning the melodrama etc. Never mind that everyone is (we think?) processing off-screen the deaths of tens of thousands in Havenrock, so we are left to speculate if the weight of it is actually felt. This too goes back to long-standing plotting and writing issues.
    Oliver has always done that since season 2 & 3. Have a very great day you and everyone!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  3. #1863
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    It seems, based off of what you're saying, that that person was counting season 2, 3 and 4. But even tht's not really correct. Oliver was complicit in the deaths of those Russian guards, killed Count Vertigo, Cyrus Gold, that guy while he was being trained by Ra's and Ra's himself. Not to mention, I'd count as at least partially responsible for everything Malcolm and Anarky did after he handed the keys to the LOA over to a terrorist/the murderer of over 500 people and broke a psychopath out of police custody and let him loose onto the streets to do his bidding. But I don't think the members of the general audience take the same time to remember those things.Oliver has always done that since season 2 & 3.
    In a word, yes. I agree.

    Some fans might say Ollie may not have personally killed all the people Malcolm and Anarky did, but you're right: his actions paved a clear path for them to do just that. He is complicit, even partially, for these deaths -- on top of the ones he iced himself during the seasons that he was allegedly not dropping bodies any more.

    In a similar way re: Ollie handing Malcolm the Ra's title didn't wash his hands of what Malcolm Al Ghul would do with this power, Malcolm might not have pushed the button to launch all those nuclear missiles, but the deaths at Havenrock are as much on him as on Darhk. He stood to be counted with HIVE, their actions and sins are his by association.

    I guess generally viewers have the impression he didn't kill from S2 onward. Even though thematically Ollie had chosen not to be the Hood S2-4, the idea that he stopped killing from S2 onward is a factually wrong impression out there that seems be evolving into an accepted myth/headcanon about Arrow's Ollie. His actions in backing up this no-kill conviction are uneven at best. He basically forgot about it as he was dropping bodies to hunt for Darhk and avenge Felicity's shooting.

    For three seasons (S2-4) he didn't want to willfully kill/kill by choice or habit -- this might be a fairer statement, since he has actually killed or, through his actions, let Malcolm and others kill during this period (and his no-kill policy not registering in his mind as much as we'd like it to S2-).

  4. #1864
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    I'm watching "Daredevil" season two right now, and I think that as long as it retains this level of quality, redditors will never turn against it. It's just SO much better than "Arrow" season four when it comes to the writing, acting, fight choreography, cinematography, and anything else you can think of. Also, if the redditors' negativity against Felicity and Olicity is disturbing to her fans, I can assure you that in season two many redditors were as negative towards Laurel and her storylines as the most well-known Felicity/Olicity-friendly forums. I very much doubt that the oliciter fandom would have regarded reddit as some kind of bogeyman if redditors had continued to slam Laurel the way they did in earlier seasons.

    The reddit "Daredevil" forum is open to anyone who wants to check the atmosphere there. I can assure you that it is a LOT more positive than the atmosphere on the "Arrow" reddit forum (which is still an ARROW forum, despite the change of banner), simply because the majority of the posters are very happy about "Daredevil". The same goes for the reddit "Flash" forum, BTW. It's not the case that redditors are all misogynistic fanboys who get their jollies from attacking female characters, because if they were, they would have disliked the Flash or DD female characters as well. The majority if them just feel that Felicity is a poorly written character, whose storylines and love affairs have become far too dominant for the show's own good.

    Anyway, although reddit is overcome with negativity, I'm not sure that it's that much worse than some Felicity/Olicity-dominated forums. In fact, I've been lurking on Felicity/Olicity-dominated forums since 2013, and I frankly don't find the current Felicity-critique on reddit or elsewhere that much more disturbing than the amount of vitriol poured over Laurel and her storylines on many social media over the course of four seasons. Furthermore, the great majority of redditors are disappointed with the writing and execution as a whole, and they are by no means fixated on a specific character, even though it may seem so at first sight. And TBH I don't blame them, because IMHO "Arrow" has become a shell of what it once was, due to incompetent showrunners, too much fanservice, and poor writing. Finally, "shading" and gossip about ACTORS are actually very rare on reddit, as opposed to some other forums which pride themselves in maintaining a more "genteel" veneer than the male-dominated reddit forums....
    Last edited by evaba; 05-28-2016 at 01:38 PM.

  5. #1865
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    As a Redditor and one who pays attention to the Arrow/'Daredevil' section a lot something I've noticed is that the only 'negativity' on it is pretty much what a lot of people on here (evaba, JD just to name a couple) have said throughout all of S4 and a fair chunk of S3 which is that the forced Olicity mess (and everything that has came as a result of it) is truly terrible. The major difference between KSite & Reddit is the amount of activity on it which then makes it seem like there is an overabundance of negativity as a whole when really really it's only appearing that way due to the huge amounts of people who go with it.

    In fact there have been a lot of discussions on the Arrow/Daredevil page about why people hate the show and the vast majority are all agreeing that it's because of the change of tone from being a show about Oliver and him primarily to something that is Felicity centric. Though even with that a big chunk of people on there do recognise that it's the change in writing (I'd say majority but it's extremely close either way) that has not only changed the show in general but also Felicity's character. I don't think anyone can really say that S4 Felicity is even a resemblance as to what we had in S1 or S2 of her, before you start to bring in how heavily her family tree has been this season.


    As for not paying attention to the positives of the show, that I'll disagree with. People there do but it's extremely difficult to find a positive for Arrow in general. I watched the finale and it was completely and utterly terribly written all round, the only saving grace were some of the fight scenes which still weren't as good as they were in S1.

  6. #1866
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Also, if the redditors' negativity against Felicity and Olicity is disturbing to her fans, I can assure you that in season two many redditors were as negative towards Laurel and her storylines as the most well-known Felicity/Olicity-friendly forums. I very much doubt that the oliciter fandom would have regarded reddit as some kind of bogeyman if redditors had continued to slam Laurel the way they did in earlier seasons.
    I've been avoiding Reddit since I checked it out in early season two, so yeah, the negativity that was thrown at Laurel and just the general permissive attitude toward the posters that are really heinous sent me running away. It's not a place I'd recommend anyone go to. Sure, the rational ones are there too but the trolls run free and seem to preach their rhetoric until the sheer number of times something is said seems to brain wash people.

    (Like the idea that Felicity is a totally different character now or that she's suddenly taking over the show when if you break down her character beats, she's much the same and her screen time isn't much different than what it has been since season two when apparently she was sooooo much better. The real difference in her character is that they've allowed her to be upset with Oliver and being at odds with him turns people against her. She's not changed so much as what the show has done with her. Plus by some she's also so being scapegoated for Laurel dying. The rise in hate at that exact same time was impossible not to correlate.)

    The reason I wonder when Reddit will turn against Daredevil is both that that it's my experience that they never stay happy with anything and Daredevil is only in it's second season. They liked Arrow in season two as well. The longer it goes on, the more they will start tearing it apart. Let's see how much they adore Daredevil after it has done 92 episodes. If it ever does 92 episodes. It's not a swipe at Daredevil, just a pattern I've seen.

    The same goes for the reddit "Flash" forum, BTW. It's not the case that redditors are all misogynistic fanboys who get their jollies from attacking female characters, because if they were, they would have disliked the Flash or DD female characters as well. The majority if them just feel that Felicity is a poorly written character, whose storylines and love affairs have become far too dominant for the show's own good.
    They are fine with Flash because Flash marginalizes their females characters already. They LIKE that. My impression is they feel Felicity is poorly written because she's actually written as a woman that stands up for herself. Poorly written simply translates to me as she has too much story and doesn't "know her place" on a show they want to remain male dominated all the time. Feelings give them the cooties.

    I just find it hilarious that so many spent last year complaining that Felicity didn't have enough backstory or supporting characters and now when she got them, oh no she's taking over the show!! It's all an agenda twisted to support the same resentment they've always had but turned up to 11 because now her position on the show is intolerable since she's totally not just a temporary road block until the show turns into exactly what they've wanted from the comics. Not saying there is nothing to criticize about Felicity, just that since Laurel's death was a sure thing the "criticism I've read from a lot of posters stopped being based on the facts of the show. It's revenge hate for at least a class of poster.

    There's plenty to complain about the way the storyline went but blaming just Felicity for everything doesn't compute.
    Finally, "shading" and gossip about ACTORS are actually very rare on reddit, as opposed to some other forums which pride themselves in maintaining a more "genteel" veneer than the male-dominated reddit forums....
    So I'm supposed to pat Reddit on the back for rarely saying mean things about actors that are not on the boards when they feel perfectly free to lob the hate directly at their fellow posters. Attacks on posters they are actually interacting with is waaaaaaay worse in my book than some places sometimes gossiping about famous people.

    As a Redditor and one who pays attention to the Arrow/'Daredevil' section a lot something I've noticed is that the only 'negativity' on it is pretty much what a lot of people on here (evaba, JD just to name a couple) have said throughout all of S4 and a fair chunk of S3 which is that the forced Olicity mess (and everything that has came as a result of it) is truly terrible. The major difference between KSite & Reddit is the amount of activity on it which then makes it seem like there is an overabundance of negativity as a whole when really really it's only appearing that way due to the huge amounts of people who go with it.
    Sadly, it's not like KSite has a great rep either, which is a shame because some of the posters here are very fair and measured in their opinions. I might still not agree with them but at least I can respect where it comes from.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-29-2016 at 08:25 PM.

  7. #1867
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I've been avoiding Reddit since I checked it out in early season two, so yeah, the negativity that was thrown at Laurel and just the general permissive attitude toward the posters that are really heinous sent me running away. It's not a place I'd recommend anyone go to. Sure, the rational ones are there too but the trolls run free and seem to preach their rhetoric until the sheer number of times something is said seems to brain wash people.
    Considering that you have no problems participating on previously.tv., which is pretty notorious in the rest of the fandom for its negative stance towards Laurel/KC, I'm rather surprised by your reaction to the reddit Laurel criticism! Anyway, Ive been on reddit since season two, and I'd say that there are a lof of intelligent and articulate posters, and a lot of insightful discussion that doesn't concern criticism of specific characters. But maybe I have been reading the posts for a longer time, and more carefully than you have? Right now there are a lot of *beep* posting, but that is mainly because the great majority of the redditors are REALLY disappointed with everything pertaining to "Arrow", and not just with Felicity or her dominance, or the Olicity romance.

    (Like the idea that Felicity is a totally different character now or that she's suddenly taking over the show when if you break down her character beats, she's much the same and her screen time isn't much different than what it has been since season two when apparently she was sooooo much better. The real difference in her character is that they've allowed her to be upset with Oliver and being at odds with him turns people against her. She's not changed so much as what the show has done with her. Plus by some she's also so being scapegoated for Laurel dying. The rise in hate at that exact same time was impossible not to correlate.)
    I think the main problem for many redditors (and for many other fans as well) is that Felicity hasn't really developed towards a rounded, convincingly portrayed female character/lead yet. IMHO she is even now quite far from being an independent character with some depth and character development. The superficial portrayal of Felicity has continued straight into season four, where she inadvertedly nukes a whole town, without apparently feeling any kind of remorse, depression or doubt. Instead we see a cheerful Felicity promoting the fan-created notion of #OTA/Original gangstas in a scene that has no connection whatsoever to the horrendous events that preceeded, such as Laurel being killed by Dahrk, thousands of innocent people dying from a nuke attack, her former boyfriend dying in front of her eyes, or her Team Arrow friends leaving the city. That fanservice #OTA "high five" scene was IMHO just one of many examples of how the "Arrow" writing has deteriorated over the course of seasons three and four.

    In fact, the way the aftermath of "Monument Point" was treated, it seems as though it was more important for the writers to cater to the Olicity shippers #OTA fetish than giving any even remotely realistic portrayal of a character who've been through some very serious/difficult experiences, and her reactions to these experiencies. And that's the general problem with Felicity as far as I'm concerned: she is not an independent character with her own emotions and goals. In fact, her portrayal is to me more moulded in a way that conforms with the tumblr/twitter picture of her as this perfect "strong and independent" woman, and Oliver's ideal partner, than as the fictional counterpart of a human being with weaknesses and flaws.

    The reason I wonder when Reddit will turn against Daredevil is both that that it's my experience that they never stay happy with anything and Daredevil is only in it's second season. They liked Arrow in season two as well. The longer it goes on, the more they will start tearing it apart. Let's see how much they adore Daredevil after it has done 92 episodes. If it ever does 92 episodes. It's not a swipe at Daredevil, just a pattern I've seen.
    With all due respect, I've been on reddit for three years now, and I haven't seen this pattern you're talking about. Redditors will complain when they are disapppointed with the overall writing, but if the writing is OK (and not as disasastrous as the season four "Arrow" writing), they are quite positive. So, your claims don't really stand up to reality, as I have experienced it.....unless you truly believe that seasons three and four of "Arrow" provided stellar writing and plotting! I happen to think that there has been a considerable decline in writing, plotting and even acting (because it's hard to provide quality acting when the lines you get are badly written) in seasons three and four. The majority of the redditors feel the same way, and that's why they are complaining. "Daredevil" season two was just as stellar as the first season, and that's also why it gets a mainly positive reception by redditors.

    They are fine with Flash because Flash marginalizes their females characters already. They LIKE that. My impression is they feel Felicity is poorly written because she's actually written as a woman that stands up for herself. Poorly written simply translates to me as she has too much story and doesn't "know her place" on a show they want to remain male dominated all the time. Feelings give them the cooties.
    You know, I think redditors are fine with the Flash because the writing and the character portrayal is actually still decent, rather than the horrid mess that we've seen on "Arrow" lately. Your attempts to frame this as some kind of "feminist" issue seem rather misconceived to me. That is because I don't think that the typical CW heroine (whether she's on Flash or Arrow) would qualify as an independent woman who stands up for herself, or has too much story. In fact, both Felicity's and Iris' storylines are so closely connected to the main hero (or some other male) and his story, that I'd be hard pressed to consider them as a role model of any kind for today's women. In general I don't think the issue of fandom criticism is as simple as you present it, especially since IRIS has been the subject of pretty harsh criticism, despite the fact that she's been marginalized (as you put it). Furthermore, I don't think Felicity is critiqued solely because she "doesn't know her place", but because her reactions sometimes seem unmotivated or inconsistent, for example on the matter of lying or hiding the truth.

    Anyway, I'd say that the writing for Laurel, Felicity or Iris is pretty far from the kind of nuanced, realistic, well-written and well-acted portrayals of women that you get on HBO or Netflix, even when it comes to comic book adaptions. For example, Karen Page is IMHO more well-portrayed than Iris/Candice Patton or Felicity/EBR, both when it comes to her characterization and to the acting. Iím sorry to say this, but for me it's often not the fact that Felicity displays feelings or goes up against the male hero that is a problem, but the way her emotional crises are written, and Emilyís limited/flat/poor dramatic acting in these scenes.

    I'll reply to your other points later on!
    Last edited by evaba; 05-31-2016 at 06:05 AM.

  8. #1868
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    In regards to Felicity and her being seemingly okay with killing for the greater good; she has been complicent in the deaths resulting from the nukes, Cooper and Dhark. My hope is that this is a significant storyline for her going forward where she realizes how okay she has become with killing, when for a long time it was intolerable. Could b an interesting storyline for her character.

  9. #1869
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    So I'm supposed to pat Reddit on the back for rarely saying mean things about actors that are not on the boards when they feel perfectly free to lob the hate directly at their fellow posters. Attacks on posters they are actually interacting with is waaaaaaay worse in my book than some places sometimes gossiping about famous people.
    I have been on the reddit "Arrow" and "Flash" forums since sometime in 2014 (since the second season of "Arrow"), and I have frankly not seen much at all of this hate towards fellow posters. In fact, in season two I often replied to redditors whose Laurel-criticism was IMHO unfair or exaggerated, and I was never personally attacked, although my opinion may have deviated from the prevailing opinions and attitudes. I know that there have been some widely disseminated and discussed cases where one or two Felicity/Olicity-friendly posters have been (allegedly) harassed, but that is not something that happened onlist, but in PMs. In general the tone on the reddit forum is straightforward but friendly, and I frankly prefer that to the cattiness that I've seen on some other forums.

    As for "shading", mocking or spreading rumors about actors, I think it's something that should be avoided on a public forum, because a) they are also real human beings and b) there will usually be posters/regulars who are fans of these actors, and who will feel bad seeing them mocked. And IF such "shading"/mocking/mean-spirited comments are allowed by the moderators, they should at least be evenly distributed. It shouldn't be the case that one actress (let's say, Katie Cassidy) is fair game, while another actor (let's say, Emily Bett-Rickards) is elevated and treated as if she's immune to any kind of criticism.

    KC isn't any more "mockable" than EBR, no matter what some EBR fans like to believe. If it's OK to gossip about the alleged subterfuges that Katie uses in order to cover up for her late arrivals at cons (or mock her encounter with Gail Simone), it should be equally OK to wonder what kind of "anxiety problem" Emily has that prohibits her from hardly ever appearing at Stateside cons, while gladly accepting a free ticket to Europe for European conventions....

    I know I'm sounding mean-spirited here, but that is exactly my point. I'm not saying this so that you can give me a recap of Katie Cassidy's convention behavior, or defend Emily Bett-Rickards by saying that her behavior is less worthy of criticism, in order to "objectively" prove or explain why KC gets more criticism. I would say that if you look hard enough, with the intention of finding things to "shade" someone for, you'll find them.

    My point is that there is a tendency in parts of the "Arrow" fandom to condone and encourage mockery/shade towards SOME actresses, while at the same time protesting and accusing people of "hate" and "misogyny" any time their special unicorn is subjected to the same kind of shade or criticism. That tendency has until now IMHO been more prevalent among the Felicity/Olicity fans. However, with the logic of shipper wars I know it's spilled into the Laurel/KC fandom as well. I also know that you're not comfortable speaking about fans (because for some reason such talk is more taboo on some forums than saying nasty/insulting things about actors), but the issue of spreading slanderous rumors, mocking and shading IS primarely a fandom issue, so it's hard to avoid.

    Anyway, in an ideal world ALL actors (and their spouses) should be exempted from mean-spirited comments or gossip on a public forum (which is the case here on Ksite). However, IF such comments are accepted/allowed, there shouldn't be any exceptions, especially not exceptions dictated by some kind of general forum consensus which says that those actors that WE (meaning the dominant forum faction) dislike are fair game, while the actors that WE adore/admire should be treated with silk gloves and exempted from any criticism, because for some reason they are inherently flawless. Although the reddit forums may be harsh at times, I haven't seen this kind of "in group" behavior towards actors on any of them, while I've seen plenty of it on Television Without Pity forums and their later incarnations. For example, on the TWoP "Smallville" forum the mean-spirited comments about Erica Durance bordered on defamation, without any moderator ever intervening, despite the supposedly strict forum rules. Of course, that particular forum was infamous in the whole the SV fandom.

    I guess we have had different experiences of different fan spaces, which color our perceptions. I also think that it's easier to feel at home if you agree with the dominant faction, and their opinions. However, I don't think you can claim that any specific fan space is better or superior to the other, because on most forums you'll find both articulate, polite and non-partisan posters and opinionated "trolls".
    Last edited by evaba; 05-31-2016 at 06:10 AM.

  10. #1870
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    In a word, yes. I agree.

    Some fans might say Ollie may not have personally killed all the people Malcolm and Anarky did, but you're right: his actions paved a clear path for them to do just that. He is complicit, even partially, for these deaths -- on top of the ones he iced himself during the seasons that he was allegedly not dropping bodies any more.

    In a similar way re: Ollie handing Malcolm the Ra's title didn't wash his hands of what Malcolm Al Ghul would do with this power, Malcolm might not have pushed the button to launch all those nuclear missiles, but the deaths at Havenrock are as much on him as on Darhk. He stood to be counted with HIVE, their actions and sins are his by association.

    I guess generally viewers have the impression he didn't kill from S2 onward. Even though thematically Ollie had chosen not to be the Hood S2-4, the idea that he stopped killing from S2 onward is a factually wrong impression out there that seems be evolving into an accepted myth/headcanon about Arrow's Ollie. His actions in backing up this no-kill conviction are uneven at best. He basically forgot about it as he was dropping bodies to hunt for Darhk and avenge Felicity's shooting.

    For three seasons (S2-4) he didn't want to willfully kill/kill by choice or habit -- this might be a fairer statement, since he has actually killed or, through his actions, let Malcolm and others kill during this period (and his no-kill policy not registering in his mind as much as we'd like it to S2-).
    It's maddening to have discussions with anti Laurel people who bring up all the stuff Laurel as done to justify their hate and forces me to cite every single thing, not just Oliver, like this one where it was almost like the writers just gift wrapped to me a situation of Oliver being awful in general, but with Quentin and Sara and point out to them that they don't hate them for similar or worse actions. It's like they purposefully ignore things that the show does. It speaks to a problem with the show and it's very simply that the show doesn't care about accountability or doing the right thing or showcasing that yes, the main character is basically a bad guy at far too many points in the show and will not point any of this out. The show doesn't spend time talking about it, so no one accepts his actions as canon apparently, but Laurel lying to her dad about Sara's death, oh no, they're gonna rant about how evil Laurel is for that until the cows come home. It makes no sense to me. Have a very great day you and everyone!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  11. #1871
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    The Arrow version of Laurel was a poorly designed character (her back story doomed her from the start), and was also poorly written. It was always my opinion that the character was not wanted on the show by T.P.T.B. I'm not throwing stones at the actress, she was no better or worse than the rest of the cast, but if she was valued by the people calling the shots they would have given her better material, and she would still be there.

  12. #1872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    The Arrow version of Laurel was a poorly designed character (her back story doomed her from the start), and was also poorly written. It was always my opinion that the character was not wanted on the show by T.P.T.B. I'm not throwing stones at the actress, she was no better or worse than the rest of the cast, but if she was valued by the people calling the shots they would have given her better material, and she would still be there.
    The material early on wasn't the problem. It wasn't perfect certainly, but not everything was. The character was fine. Those who viewed it and started hating on the character were the issue. The writers pandering to that group is when the trouble started. Not the character. People choose how they react and they chose to pretend the character was a bad character or evil or whatever to justify their unjust hatred. Have a very great day you and everyone!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

  13. #1873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    The Arrow version of Laurel was a poorly designed character (her back story doomed her from the start), and was also poorly written. It was always my opinion that the character was not wanted on the show by T.P.T.B. I'm not throwing stones at the actress, she was no better or worse than the rest of the cast, but if she was valued by the people calling the shots they would have given her better material, and she would still be there.
    I'm not sure whether the writers' or the TPTB's feelings towards a character are as decisive as you seem to claim. I mean, the writers apparently love Felicity, and according to Wendy Mericle they fight about writing for her. That love has been pretty apparent in later seasons, where she has been prominently showcased. However, despite this love and attention Felicity has IMHO not been written well for the past two seasons, and that is probably why there has been such a big backlash against her character in seasons three and four. The over-exposure and character shilling, in combination with some questionable writing choices, which resulted in Felicity becoming too melodramatic (Baby Momma issue) or too shallow/unfeeling (almost total lack of normal human reactions to inadvertedly killing a whole town) made her impopular among a sizeable portion of the fans.

    Furthermore, I do think that EBR's in my eyes weak dramatic acting has some part in this backlash....if you don't believe that Felicity is the most interesting and flawless heroine in the Flarrow universe, her dramatic scenes can be drawback in themselves. This is not necessarily because of what the writers make Felicity say, but HOW EBR says the words, and the way she often IMHO fails to convey their emotional impact. I don't think the writing for Lyla and Diggle is any better, but in the hands of two skilled actors the dialogues have a nice flow, and the characters' emotions come across as believable. I actually feel the same way about Katie Cassidy: her portrayal of Laurel was maybe not how people expected to see Dinah/Black Canary, but at least she often managed to convey what the script demanded, as in scenes such as these:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkel...rFbEg&index=21

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsdXsgz7890

    This is just my opinion of course, but I have yet to see that level of acting from Caity Lotz or EBR.

    Anyway, my point is that it can be quite irrelevant how the writers feel or what they're trying to achieve with their character portrayal. I don't think that the writers wanted us to dislike/hate/loathe neither Laurel nor Felicity, nor do I think they wanted us to regard their choices as "wrong" or reprehensible. That is especially the case with Felicity, who is often treated like the special snowflake of the cast, and whose behavior/choices are hardly ever questioned or criticized by the other characters. IF the writers had wanted us to find Felicity flawed or misguided, I don't think they would have written her in this manner.

    I actually think the writers felt more free with Laurel's storylunes, maybe because she, as opposed to Felicity, didn't have such a large and fanatic fanbase, who puts her on such a pedestal that they cannot accept any portrayal of her that doesn't tally with their own perceptions of her. I'm saying this because Laurel was at least treated as a flawed human being, whose decisions and actions were questioned and opposed by the other main characters.

    My point is that writers' intentions often don't match audience reactions, especially not when it comes to female characters. Laurel was the victim of this mismatch for two seasons, and judging by what I'm seeing on various social media, Felicity has become the new victim.
    Last edited by evaba; 06-03-2016 at 04:39 AM.

  14. #1874
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Right now I'm in the middle of rewatching season 2 (for the first time since it aired) and I'd definitely say that Katie Cassidy's acting has impressed me much more than it did at the time. Knowing what Katie looked like the season before and the seasons after, her transformation in season 2 is quite startling. Do I agree with the storyline she was given? Not really, but she really threw herself into her role went out of her way to make it work.

    And it's not just the weight loss or her tired look. Her acting perfectly conveyed the pain Laurel was going through. I will add this to the scenes evaba posted as evidence of how impactful her acting was:



    Having gone through 2 seasons of Olicity drama and Emily's suspect dramatic acting, you learn to appreciate acting like this much more.

  15. #1875
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Right now I'm in the middle of rewatching season 2 (for the first time since it aired) and I'd definitely say that Katie Cassidy's acting has impressed me much more than it did at the time. Knowing what Katie looked like the season before and the seasons after, her transformation in season 2 is quite startling. Do I agree with the storyline she was given? Not really, but she really threw herself into her role went out of her way to make it work.

    And it's not just the weight loss or her tired look. Her acting perfectly conveyed the pain Laurel was going through. I will add this to the scenes evaba posted as evidence of how impactful her acting was:



    Having gone through 2 seasons of Olicity drama and Emily's suspect dramatic acting, you learn to appreciate acting like this much more.
    Emily's acting isn't a real problem as far as I'm concerned. The acting works this scene though. But I can't stand it. It feels like crap to me, where Laurel has to ask Sara not to hate her, instead of them patching things up at all. There's nothing in this scene of real substance writing wise. This and the Oliver yelling at Laurel scene is drivel. It's nonsense. It's Laurel's self-loathing that no one tries to help her with. It really does make me wonder how abused Laurel was to be someone who thinks that she deserves to be hated by someone who had an affair with her boyfriend, kept her being alive a secret from them and led an assassin to their door who poisoned her. And Sara just lets her think that. Doesn't say a single word against it. And the show just lets her, doesn't reject that thinking at all. Hey alcoholics and drug addicts, you deserve to be hated by the sister who got you poisoned and had a happy affair with your boyfriend! It's all garbage. This and the Oliver scene where he's a hypocrite, says things that didn't happen and lies to her face and the show just basically says that all of that is okay are both crap. I'm very sorry for the rant. Please don't think it's directed at you. Have a very great day you and everyone!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!

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