View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Fantastic Finale

    14 35.00%
  • 9

    2 5.00%
  • 8

    3 7.50%
  • 7

    5 12.50%
  • 6

    2 5.00%
  • 5

    2 5.00%
  • 4

    2 5.00%
  • 3

    4 10.00%
  • 2

    2 5.00%
  • 1 - Meh. That was it?

    4 10.00%
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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    Don't know if she will be a villain or not, but Caity Lotz said in an interview Sara's personality was going to be different, and there would be consequences from using the pit. I think it's a pretty safe bet the two Canarys will clash at some point. I just want to know who gets stuck telling captain lance his dead daughter isn't dead ...again.
    And if he has a heart attack they can toss him into the LP. They should be bottling that water and selling it in vending machines.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelyGal View Post
    Then having to watch Nyssa knell before Malcolm nearly made me vomit. Maybe she is willing to give Malcolm her loyalty in exchange for him using the pit on Sara.
    Thank you. That must be what is going on there. She must be planning on getting Sara into the LP by staying in the LOA. Another thing about Nyssa that was left incomplete - what about her and Oliver being married? Does that not count anymore? Or are they going to both pretend it didn't happen?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    Another thing about Nyssa that was left incomplete - what about her and Oliver being married? Does that not count anymore? Or are they going to both pretend it didn't happen?
    They will probably try to forget this season ever happened .

  4. #49
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    For me there is a lot that was left undone with all of this. Sara's death was once a huge deal, but now it's been swept under the rug. The only thing I can see they may salvage it is if they make Malcolm a big bad guy for this spinoff where Sara is back. Anyway, I'm not thrilled with the way they "wrapped up" this story line.

    I also found it amusing how Ollie said he would never forgive Malcolm for what he did to Sara and Thea. It's realistic, but all I could think of was - Did you learn this from Slade too Ollie? Because wasn't this similar to Slades justification in season two?
    While I welcome the return of Sara on the spin-off show -- I did like her character -- this would also be my concern. Nyssa seeking retribution for Sara's death would be a strong motivator for her to undermine "Malcolm" Al Ghul, maybe eventually launch a coup to take back her birthright. If Sara's back, then it may undercut Nyssa's efforts. She may still want a reckoning for Sara's death regardless, but with Sara living and breathing it kind of loses steam. You could almost hear Ollie say: "Why are you still angry at Malcolm? Sara's alive! No harm, no foul." Unless she bartered her loyalty for a Sara Pit dip.

    It is amusing that Ollie can't accept Slade's admittedly melodramatic motivation (Shado's death) for opposing the Arrow, but he's perfectly find using similar motives in holding a bitter grudge against Malcolm. If he's going to hold a hardcore grudge, at least he should get it right. Forgetting Tommy from his vow is a pretty big omission.

    And unless I missed something in the finale, Ollie's slippery deal with Malcolm wasn't shared with the rest of Team Arrow -- including Felicity. How could any of them be cool with it, esp. with the considerable baggage Malcolm carries? No more secrets, no more lies eh, Ollie? I can even predict his response when the deal is exposed -- it'll be some variation of "I did it to protect people, for the greater good, save the city" etc.

    As for the finale sunset road trip scene, I am more than fine with it both representing a dream Ollie and Felicity have. Can't fault them for wanting it, who doesn't want happiness? The question here is: is it ultimately a realistic outcome for them? This is what I think they'll be sorting out early in S4 ... and I strongly suspect that the answers they find won't be the ones they want.

    Setting aside the "only Felicity's love can save him" dribble-drabble they've been feeding us this whole season, Ollie's mind/soul/conscience needs a respite and, yes, even happiness. He has earned it and, out of necessity, he needs to recapture some of this -- if only to avoid Maseo's bleak fate (which I think Maseo's story arc was meant to highlight, wobbly execution notwithstanding). He can't be the GA of legend if he's a broken man by series end.

    This doesn't mean that he can pack his history/legacy in a box and it will have no bearing on his character in S4 -- because this would be unbelievable. The Oliver Queen on that road may want to be blank slate (and in a sense, needs to be blank slate for the sake of his sanity), but he's not a computer where you can just wipe his soul of the bad things and he comes out new and reformatted.

    If I'm being generous, Felicity would have to share the Tag Team belt for "mending Ollie's broken soul" with Team Arrow represented by Roy, who actually did a hell of a lot this season in both helping Ollie to discard his weighty Arrow baggage and steering Thea towards a more constructive path. And in my books, Diggle's already in the Hall of Fame in keeping Ollie's psyche from crumbling to bits over three seasons.

    Sharing is caring and I don't think any one member can lay claim to "saving" Ollie. It was a team effort. If Olicity retains its S3 DNA going forward, I guess I'll have to roll with it in the way I had to with some of the more melodramatic subplots on SV: I'll see it happens in an ep., but I won't put much stock in it and just focus on the important plots and arcs.

    Arrow will always be darker in tone, this is not going to change. It's in the series' DNA, part of the Oliver Queen/GA legacy. It's changed since S1 and, while it's nowhere near as gloomy as it once was, it's never going to be more like the Flash. Nor would I want it to be. It's a different tone and considering all the Batman influences on Arrow, it's going to retain this tone to maintain its credibility as the "edgier" of the CW DC TV properties.

    Viewers who want Arrow to be more cheery/more Flash-like should brace themselves for S4 since Ollie going medieval on Gen. Shrieve in the flashback is foreshadowing what's to come -- at least in the S4 flashback realm, which I expect to be the darkest so far. This Ollie is on the path to S1's The Hood and what he did to Shrieve is only the tip of the rabbit hole. No doubt some of this will bleed into S4 current timeline.

    Ollie can have his mind/heart/soul time-out, but I anticipate that the vacation will be short-lived or even cut short. If the finale alludes to Olicity's carefree "honeymoon" (metaphorically speaking), I'm thinking S4 is when the whopping post-vacation bills come pouring in.

  5. #50
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    [Almost forgot about Nyssa and Ollie actually being married. This is one huge loose end that needs addressing.]

    "Hotel mgr.: Mr. Oliver Al Ghul, we've booked the presidential suite.

    Ollie: Uh -- my name is Oliver Queen.

    Hotel mgr.: Not according to this reservation. It says: 2 guests -- one Al Sah-him Warif (Ollie) Al Ghul, and one Nyssa Al Ghul, spouse. (to Felicity) I presume you are Mrs. Al Ghul.

    Felicity: Huh, what? No, you may not presume. It's Smoak, Felicity. Ms.

    Hotel mgr.: I'm afraid the reservation record doesn't match the identification you provided, Mr. Al Ghul. It was booked under "Nanda Parbat Dates and Almond Imports, Inc.", a corporate account to a Mr. and Mrs. Al Ghul. I can't release the room until this is cleared up Mr. Al Ghul.

    Ollie: My ... NAME ... is Oliver Queen!

    Felicity: Seriously, Ollie? You booked the room on an LOA card?

    Ollie: We were in a bit of a hurry, if we stayed in Starling any longer I would have had to babysit Diggle's kid again for the afternoon. I just grabbed the first credit card on the table. Are you mad at me, baby?

    Felicity: Well, right now, I'm not 'happy' with you!

    [In Nanda Parbat]:

    Malcolm Al Ghul: I refuse to dissolve your marriage to Oliver Queen. In the eyes of the League, you are his beloved unto death.

    Nyssa: I demand to know the reason! You command my loyalty -- but not the will of my heart!

    Malcolm: The only credit that work for him are League accounts for our many shell companies. They are all joint accounts. If he ever needs to make so much as a hotel reservation, he will need you to authorize the purchase. This way, I can keep tabs on him. And FYI, the same applies to you. You will need Oliver's authorization to access your credit with the League, wherever you go. We can't have you engineering a coup to overthrow me. I'd cackle maniacally at this point, but this audience chamber's got an echo like you wouldn't believe.

    Nyssa: Stupid Al Sah-him sham wedding ... #$%@-ing old-world tradition crap. I should have gone for sundaes with Laurel and the girls like I planned ...

  6. #51
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    OK so this is a serious question. And I don't need a sarcastic answer from those of you that hate Oliver and Felicity together. So my question is this: Can somebody explain to me what Felicity was trying to convey to Oliver with that whole your are something else speech? I honestly didn't understand her point, because what she was saying and how she ended it seem to contradict each other.

    ps. Seperate topic. I can all but guarantee that at some point a scene was filmed where Malcom, in a show of good faith, tells Nyssa he is willing to put Sara in the Lazarus pit (to air in the new show). It would explain how Sara is alive in the new show, it would explain why Nyssa stays loyal to the League and it would lead more credence to the theory that Malcom was playing the long con all along and part of his plan was to bring Sara back, once he was the Demon's Head. If said theory is true, then Malcom is a freakin genius.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    OK so this is a serious question. And I don't need a sarcastic answer from those of you that hate Oliver and Felicity together. So my question is this: Can somebody explain to me what Felicity was trying to convey to Oliver with that whole your are something else speech? I honestly didn't understand her point, because what she was saying and how she ended it seem to contradict each other.

    ps. Seperate topic. I can all but guarantee that at some point a scene was filmed where Malcom, in a show of good faith, tells Nyssa he is willing to put Sara in the Lazarus pit (to air in the new show). It would explain how Sara is alive in the new show, it would explain why Nyssa stays loyal to the League and it would lead more credence to the theory that Malcom was playing the long con all along and part of his plan was to bring Sara back, once he was the Demon's Head. If said theory is true, then Malcom is a freakin genius.
    I think she was trying to convey that Oliver has become more than the sum of his parts. More than the division between Oliver Queen and the Arrow, but the two combined somehow? That's what I took away from it, but I could be wrong. (And though I don't like the pairing, no sarcasm intended with this answer)

    I actually love the idea of Malcolm resurrecting Sara. Supposedly you can resurrect dead people up to a year after their death in the comics, so maybe that was his plan all along? It still doesn't excuse his means for getting there and I still don't like that he became the leader of the LoA, but it would be an interesting plot twist if he did that in an attempt to buy Nyssa's loyalty.

  8. #53
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    My take on the episode: It had some decent moments and I didn't hate it as much as I expected to, but I still think that this whole season has had a lot of wandering plotlines where they just haphazardly got us from Point A to Point B without really making it make sense. I still don't get how Oliver considers it a 'win' to take down R'as al Ghul at the expense of putting Malcolm in charge of the League of Assassins. But the conversation they had implied that there was more to the agreement in terms of how Malcolm will use his new position as head of the LoA. When Malcolm asked if they were enemies now, Oliver said something about only if he didn't keep up his end of the bargain.

    I did like that Oliver trusted Thea, Laurel, and Diggle enough to leave the city in their hands. I think that showed character growth. I also liked that Diggle wasn't so quick to forgive him. I think that they may repair that friendship slowly over the course of next season, but I'm glad that all wasn't forgiven so quickly.

    I typically like it when the typical love interest is able to save the hero, and I'm glad that Felicity got the chance to save Oliver, but I have a hard time buying the fact that she was able to perfectly fly and land the ATOM suit when even the creator wasn't able to do that the first time. I didn't love that Felicity was begging Ray to sacrifice thousands (or possibly more than that) to save her boyfriend, but on the other hand, I like that she found a way for both things to happen. But this season has done her character a severe disservice in showing that she doesn't seem to care about anyone but Oliver. She was willing to quit the team when Oliver wasn't around, she was willing to let Thea die over Oliver joining the League, she made Nyssa being forced to marry someone about her own jealousy, and now she wanted Ray to sacrifice the city to save Oliver? It's just awful writing and I feel like these writers never know how to write female characters when they're in the role of 'love interest.'

    It's sad to me that the most enjoyable episodes of this season were the ones when the team was trying to figure out how to protect the city without Oliver. It's sad that I would enjoy the show better if Oliver and Felicity stayed gone and it shifted focus to Thea, Laurel, and Diggle. But it is what it is. I'm not sure if I'll return next season or just wait until it hits Netflix, because there are a lot of promising superhero shows out there that look like they'll be more fun and that hopefully won't write off and sideline my favorites.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    Mayor of Starling City is a temporary position. On this show it is such an action packed government position, I've lost count how many have been assassinated.
    At least he could survive the murder attempts on his life. He's quick enough to catch an arrow, he can dodge bullets, he's quite capable. He's be the first mayor to live through an attack if it happens.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    ... I typically like it when the typical love interest is able to save the hero, and I'm glad that Felicity got the chance to save Oliver, but I have a hard time buying the fact that she was able to perfectly fly and land the ATOM suit when even the creator wasn't able to do that the first time. I didn't love that Felicity was begging Ray to sacrifice thousands (or possibly more than that) to save her boyfriend, but on the other hand, I like that she found a way for both things to happen. But this season has done her character a severe disservice in showing that she doesn't seem to care about anyone but Oliver. She was willing to quit the team when Oliver wasn't around, she was willing to let Thea die over Oliver joining the League, she made Nyssa being forced to marry someone about her own jealousy, and now she wanted Ray to sacrifice the city to save Oliver? It's just awful writing and I feel like these writers never know how to write female characters when they're in the role of 'love interest.'
    While it was good to see that Felicity showed some ingenuity with a 'third' option to save Ollie, the impression it left me once the deed was done was as you described. They may not have had the intention of making Felicity appear so consumed with saving Ollie that she would want Ray to set aside the whole "for the greater good" mission, drop everything, to Hades with city and its many lives, and go save Ollie -- but this is the impression they created with the whole scene. (I'm not even counting the big stretch in credibility needed to accept Felicity being proficient in use of the ATOM suit in so little time when Ray couldn't get it right the first time.)

    If it were any other supporting character who did this -- Laurel, Thea, whoever -- the fandom would be all over his/her behaviour, seemingly selfish instincts, etc. But it's ok when Felicity does it, because she loves him, he loves her and the only way Ollie can truly become GA is with her faith in him and love, and apparently only hers ... and Diggle and team's nearly identical advice be damned.

    What's disappointing is they've turned a really good -- and on this show, necessary -- character from S1 and part of S2 (she once provided much needed humour, wit and charm to a brooding show) into primarily a fount for melodrama by end of S3. I get that it's the network, they want this, built much of their TV lineup around its use, but it doesn't mean their writing can't aspire to something better than standing pat on what supposedly works.

    Laurel and Thea's growth -- unattached to significant others in S3 -- have made much progress as characters, in comparison.

    It's as you said: well-written, independent female characters are few and far between on The CW. It's regrettable that Laurel and Thea in the past and, currently, Felicity have all had to pay the price for this inability to craft strong women who don't need the 'love interest' label to matter on a CW TV series. And with SV under their belts, they should know better by now.

    On a lighter note: the Mayor of Starling City is a position that is marked for death after three seasons. Any candidate must be given the 411 that the odds are good anyone from street gangs, the Russian Bratva, a messianic league of killers, an unhinged lone wolf, metahumans with an axe to grind or possibly even local vigilantes under mind control/hallucinogenics may be gunning for you. Quentin must let out a sigh of frustration whenever election time rolls around: "Time to prep the morgue, people. All leaves are cancelled. We're getting a new mayor. "

  11. #56
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    In the next scene Nyssa says League armor saved his life which was also implied from the way SA played it after Felicty saves him with Rays suit.
    Except we've seen several Leaguers get shot and go down.
    The show flat out has her say repeatedly that she knows who he is no matter his name or if or not he is wearing a hood. She's the one that is able to point out to Oliver he doesn't have to just be Oliver Queen or the Arrow, that he's become something new. She accepts all who he is. She loved him even when she thought he'd been brainwashed. She knows him better than almost anyone. She doesn't have an idealized love for him, I mean for goodness sakes, she just forgave him for letting them all think he was killing them AND once again dealt with his tiresome habit of tring to fix his problems by dying. She knows his flaws. Doesn't matter, she loves him.

    Even when she was furious with him for going against his own principals and yes, betraying Sara's memory, she only said she didn't want to be a woman he loved, never that she stopped loving him.

    And it is Oliver with the dream of riding off into the sunset, not Felicty. His dream. One that he had nearly every night since he almost died.
    All of that is exactly what makes it true that she doesn't love him. She loves the idea.

  12. #57
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    How could Felicity be furious at Oliver for working with Malcolm (in Uprising), but gladly ride off in the sunset with him after he's just delivered a group of assassins to Malcolm's doorstep? Doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Arrow will always be darker in tone, this is not going to change. It's in the series' DNA, part of the Oliver Queen/GA legacy. It's changed since S1 and, while it's nowhere near as gloomy as it once was, it's never going to be more like the Flash. Nor would I want it to be. It's a different tone and considering all the Batman influences on Arrow, it's going to retain this tone to maintain its credibility as the "edgier" of the CW DC TV properties.

    Viewers who want Arrow to be more cheery/more Flash-like should brace themselves for S4 since Ollie going medieval on Gen. Shrieve in the flashback is foreshadowing what's to come -- at least in the S4 flashback realm, which I expect to be the darkest so far. This Ollie is on the path to S1's The Hood and what he did to Shrieve is only the tip of the rabbit hole. No doubt some of this will bleed into S4 current timeline.

    Ollie can have his mind/heart/soul time-out, but I anticipate that the vacation will be short-lived or even cut short. If the finale alludes to Olicity's carefree "honeymoon" (metaphorically speaking), I'm thinking S4 is when the whopping post-vacation bills come pouring in.
    Good point about the flashbacks. Amidst all my bitterness about the finale, I forgot to mention how fantastic the finale's flashbacks were. They've dragged for most of the season, but the way we saw Oliver lose the plot after Akio's death was chilling. While present day Oliver's character development is all over the place for the last 2 seasons, he's been growing darker in the flashbacks with each passing year.

    As for the tone next season (in the present day storylines anyway), oddly enough, Marc Guggenheim said that it will be lighter. Don't know how to interpret that, but it feels like they have the wrong idea. The show's tone is fine. It's the cheesy lines and scenes and the pathetic character development that drags it down.
    Last edited by costas22; 05-16-2015 at 08:30 AM.

  13. #58
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    [Almost forgot about Nyssa and Ollie actually being married. This is one huge loose end that needs addressing.]

    "Hotel mgr.: Mr. Oliver Al Ghul, we've booked the presidential suite.

    Ollie: Uh -- my name is Oliver Queen.

    Hotel mgr.: Not according to this reservation. It says: 2 guests -- one Al Sah-him Warif (Ollie) Al Ghul, and one Nyssa Al Ghul, spouse. (to Felicity) I presume you are Mrs. Al Ghul.

    Felicity: Huh, what? No, you may not presume. It's Smoak, Felicity. Ms.

    Hotel mgr.: I'm afraid the reservation record doesn't match the identification you provided, Mr. Al Ghul. It was booked under "Nanda Parbat Dates and Almond Imports, Inc.", a corporate account to a Mr. and Mrs. Al Ghul. I can't release the room until this is cleared up Mr. Al Ghul.

    Ollie: My ... NAME ... is Oliver Queen!

    Felicity: Seriously, Ollie? You booked the room on an LOA card?

    Ollie: We were in a bit of a hurry, if we stayed in Starling any longer I would have had to babysit Diggle's kid again for the afternoon. I just grabbed the first credit card on the table. Are you mad at me, baby?

    Felicity: Well, right now, I'm not 'happy' with you!

    [In Nanda Parbat]:

    Malcolm Al Ghul: I refuse to dissolve your marriage to Oliver Queen. In the eyes of the League, you are his beloved unto death.

    Nyssa: I demand to know the reason! You command my loyalty -- but not the will of my heart!

    Malcolm: The only credit that work for him are League accounts for our many shell companies. They are all joint accounts. If he ever needs to make so much as a hotel reservation, he will need you to authorize the purchase. This way, I can keep tabs on him. And FYI, the same applies to you. You will need Oliver's authorization to access your credit with the League, wherever you go. We can't have you engineering a coup to overthrow me. I'd cackle maniacally at this point, but this audience chamber's got an echo like you wouldn't believe.

    Nyssa: Stupid Al Sah-him sham wedding ... #$%@-ing old-world tradition crap. I should have gone for sundaes with Laurel and the girls like I planned ...
    Hilarious!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    How could Felicity be furious at Oliver for working with Malcolm (in Uprising), but gladly ride off in the sunset with him after he's just delivered a group of assassins to Malcolm's doorstep? Doesn't make sense.
    I said many times on these forums that this season had some awesome moments and some bad ones. Uprising is a bad one. That entire episode didn't make any sense. From Malcom's regret, to The Arrow giving his grand speech, to Felicity's anger. It was stupid. So I like to pretend that the episode never happened.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey D Atlas View Post
    At least he could survive the murder attempts on his life. He's quick enough to catch an arrow, he can dodge bullets, he's quite capable. He's be the first mayor to live through an attack if it happens.
    You have a good point

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