Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "The Fallen?"

[Shelby Kent]

5/10. Major points deducted for Olicity

There's no direction for Olicity to go but down and Ra's advice essentially foreshadowed it. Ra's is not going to indulge such trivialities in his heir, nor should he.

Thanks -- I need to have a glimmer of hope to cling to!

Many fans didn't like Laurel's melodrama-heavy S2 story arc and, while some of the criticisms were warranted, some of them were likely due to her being a perceived "obstacle" to Olicity. As for S3, Laurel has emerged as one of the stronger characters (and stronger female characters) on the show. It's an important distinction to make because she's the one defining herself more and more ... and being less defined by her association with Ollie. It's actually a blessing that Ollie chose not to train her. He's not her bf nor her trainer -- so his two cents don't count re: Laurel's own path to heroism. She's going to make bad decisions and mistakes, but the choices in her journey will be hers alone. She will own the defeats, but also the successes. This will benefit BC in the long run as a superhero in her own right.

In contrast, everything about S3 Felicity is that she's become more and more being defined by how well/poorly she fares with Ollie. I miss S1-early S2 Felicity, who didn't need or want to be defined by anyone. Olicity achieved its endgame this ep. -- fan service achieved. In my book, it should not take a whole new season to wrap it up and see the end of Olicity. S3 Olicity wounded Felicity's character development, and to some degree S3 Ollie's as well. Not mortally (yet), so there is still hope. Let's get back to developing Felicity as an independent character in S4 whose happiness or identity doesn't depend on someone else.

Well said! Nice analysis. I am afraid that they're going to keep Olicity together for the remainder of the series. I'm going to keep watching the show no matter what , but I really don't want it to turn into Arrowicity, which is my big fear Your words give me some hope!!

[Sunfayrie]

Many fans didn't like Laurel's melodrama-heavy S2 story arc and, while some of the criticisms were warranted, some of them were likely due to her being a perceived "obstacle" to Olicity. As for S3, Laurel has emerged as one of the stronger characters (and stronger female characters) on the show. It's an important distinction to make because she's the one defining herself more and more ... and being less defined by her association with Ollie. It's actually a blessing that Ollie chose not to train her. He's not her bf nor her trainer -- so his two cents don't count re: Laurel's own path to heroism. She's going to make bad decisions and mistakes, but the choices in her journey will be hers alone. She will own the defeats, but also the successes. This will benefit BC in the long run as a superhero in her own right.
.TUMS.

I totally agree on the part about Laurel and Katie Cassidy has done an amazing job this season. I hate seeing her get sidelined to pander to a ship. She has carried Laurel through an incredible difficult and hard to watch story arcs and deserves more credit than she gets. Season 1 Laurel was suppose to closed off, guarded, and confused around Oliver and Katie Cassidy converyed all those emotions. Season 2 Laurel was suppose to be ugly- addiction is ugly and Katie Cassidy again brought all the anger, hate, desperation and hopelessness that an addict would feel. Season 3 Laurel is the Phoenix, she is rising from the ashes of her past and I want to more of that journey on screen. Instead we get the Felicity show, were every superhero becomes an idiot and slavishly worships the ground she walks on.

[fanoffelicity]

First off, let me say that I loved this episode. And I have really enjoyed the episodes leading up to it. In fact I think season 3 is better than season 1 and 2.
I have read a lot of complaints about the show this season (not just in this particular thread) so first off, if the show is really 32 minutes (or more) of "unwatchable junk" and an “abomination” why do you bother watching and then waste even more time posting about it? Do you really have so little to do with your life? If I hated a show that much or found it that disappointing, I wouldn't be wasting my time on it.

With that said, here is why I have really enjoyed this season:
The Flashbacks- they have been panned as being disjointed, slow and apparently irrelevant to the present. I think that they have been relevant it's just that they are more relevant to Maseo's story arc than Oliver's. The first two season flashbacks were telling Oliver's backstory showing us how he ended up the way he did. It seems to me that the flashbacks this season are more focused on how Maseo ended up where he is- in the LoA and separated from Tatsu. It is pretty obvious now that his son's death was probably the impetus for both, and while I am not looking forward to finding out how that happens, I think it will be critical for understanding Maseo's behavior. As much as this season has been about Oliver's struggle with his identity, I agree with other posters that this season has also been about Maseo's identity struggle as Maseo vs. Sarab (Serab?). And as someone pointed out, the LoA is supposed to erase your previous identity. But here we have proof that it is not that easy to accomplish. If Maseo's old identity hasn't been completely purged after all the time in the league, then there is hope that Oliver's identity will not be fully purged either. I also think that perhaps Maseo's struggle with resolve in tandem with Oliver's and perhaps they will help each other escape this fate.

The villian: I think that Raj has been the most powerful villain to date. Slade Wilson wreaked havoc on the city and vowed to destroy Oliver but he didn’t succeed. Raj did. And Raj isn’t using mirakuru to enhance his abilities. Yet Oliver has bent to his will and joined the league as the heir to the demon. I am really looking forward to see how this all works out because at this point it looks like Raj is holding all the cards. And that, to me, is what makes a great story- when you really can’t predict what is going to happen next, when the hero is faced with seemingly insurmountable odds and even though you know he’s going to be ok in the end, it’s exciting to see how he does it.

Long running story lines: I like that there have been a lot of story lines are being developed over time. It seems to me some people are griping about things that haven’t happened yet as if an issue that hasn’t been addressed yet won’t ever be. In other words, be patient and enjoy the ride! Cases in point- 1) Perhaps I have too much faith in the writers, but I honestly don’t think we have seen the last of how the pit has affected Thea. For one thing, I don’t think they would bother making such a big deal of how it changes a person’s soul only to have the “change” to Thea amount to 30 seconds of acting crazy. If there is really such a deep change in a person, I think it will take several episodes, if not a good part of a season to see and explore if Thea has been changed and how. 2) Malcom Merlin- I know he has not been held accountable for past actions yet. Again, I personally think that this is something that will be addressed in future episodes. The writers have done a good job of making the villians’ redemption stories believable so far (like with Deadshot) and I think they will do the same with MM. If they don’t, then I’ll be the first complain =). 3) Laurel as the Black Canary. I know she hasn’t had much screen time lately, but given how much people were complaining that she wasn’t trained enough to be a believable Black Canary, I can’t see how people find this surprising. She has made some great appearances as lawyer-Laurel, she now has the canary’s cry curtesy of Cisco, and has been training with Nyssa. I think we are poised to see some really great stuff next season. There is only so much that you can fit into one episode or even one season. I think the writers have done a good job of developing Laurel’s character at a believable pace.

Finally, the things I enjoy most about this show, this season and this episode has been Oliver and Felicity. I found Arrow on Netflix and binge-watched 2 seasons before I even realized that it was a) based on a comic book character and b) that there was such a thing as fan forums like this. I was immediately drawn to their chemistry and noticed it right away. I cringed when Oliver was with Laurel, that to me seemed far more unbelievable and I was glad when it ended. I have been a huge fan of Felicity (and EBR) since her first appearance. And while I loved the awkward, shy, nervous IT girl with the Freudian slips I have also loved seeing her grow and mature into a strong woman who can stand up to Oliver, who chose to keep fighting without him, who chose to try and find love elsewhere when he pushed her away, and who ultimately realized something about herself in the process- that Oliver is who she wants and who she wants to be with. Maybe now that now they are a couple we’ll see some fun playful flirting and banter between them. But I don’t think that the writers are going to break them up so Oliver can get back together with Laurel. I don’t think Laurel is a good match for Oliver. And, if “Olicity” exists because there is such a strong and vocal fanbase clamoring for them that the writers felt compelled to “pander” to them by writing into the show something that they otherwise would not have included, why would they then draw the ire and risk losing the support of that same fanbase by breaking up the couple? Related to that point, I fail to see how including a relationship with a signifcant other for Oliver is pandering to a particular fan base.

I think, in general, in every person’s life there are three sets of relationships that, for good or bad, have the most impact on a person- their family, their friends, and their spouse/partner/significant other. For Oliver those people are Thea, Diggle and Roy, and Felicity. I don’t think it would be a very realistic show if after 3 years of coming back from the island Oliver hadn’t formed a significant relationship with someone. He tried to connect multiple times- Shado, dead. Laurel, too much past history plus Tommy got in the way. Helena-too far gone for Oliver to save and build a life with. McKenna (?) moved out of his life. Sara- saw herself that she wasn’t a good match for Oliver and ended it and now she’s dead too (temporarily at least!). Isabel- I think just a fling to try and prove that he wasn’t with Felicity. So what other regular female character is there on the show for Oliver to fall in love with? I think every person is made better by being in a strong meaningful relationship with a person you love, who encourages and supports and understands you. Every hero needs his girl! Even if you don’t see much chemistry between O and F, just the process of elimination would put them together- vocal fan base or not.

Whew! That turned into a very long commentary. Sorry about that. I’ve just been thinking about this stuff for a long time and got tired of reading so many complaints about how bad the show is that I felt I needed to speak up for all the things that I like about the show. I’m done now. Thanks for reading!

[Amarice]

This episode is the best example that listening to the voice of the active fanbase is not always the best option. The episode which should be focused on brother-sister relationship and rather dramatic choice Oliver has to make (trading his own life for the life of his sister doesn't happen every day after all) was turned into into another ship-centric drama. Right now Ra's seems to join the shippers league alongside Diggle, Malcolm and even Deathstroke (really, those people need other hobby).

I liked the beginning of the episode - Oliver's despair was palpable and real (great job from Stephen Amell). Thea is his last remaining member of the family, all he wanted was to protect her, his little sister. And he failed. Ressurection scene and generally league stuff was quite good - Diggle and Maseo scene for exemple and the last one especially, when Oliver is branded as the league member and puts on the assasins outfit (still looks better in green IMO).

I didn't like Olicity related scenes, which consumed here around the half of an episode, while the time could have been given to much more interesting scenes, focusing on more interesting subplots - sorry, I just don't see that "amazing chemistry" between Oliver and Felicity, I'm dissapointed that they are putting so much on melodrama and pairing in superhero action show. I don't care who the guy in the green hood with bow and arrow is going to end up with. I want to see him fighting street-level crime with said bow and arrow and his romantic relationships is the least interesting part in the show. Back to the bad things in the episode - also the lack of Laurel was annoying (what has happened with the farewell scene in the airport?). Thea is her close friend - and she is not informed by Oliver that she is mortally wounded?! The idea with the escape from the stronghold was ridiculous - even if sucessful, what they would do? The League has already shown what they are capable of. Even if people close for Oliver would be out of the range, they would just start killing random people in Starling to punish Oliver for breaking the deal. That would be the final outcome of Felicity's ingenious plan.

I think that Raj has been the most powerful villain to date.

It's Ra's Al Ghul to be precise.

[Red_Arrow]

This was the second worst episode of the season, perhaps the entire show, barely edging out 3x07: Draw Back Your Bow. The story/scenes involving Thea were disappointing and a jumbled, poorly-written mess. She first leaps out of the pit like a feral animal and does some type of weird scream-growl thing. She wakes up later, probably the weakest scene of the night (writing-wise), and doesn't know who Oliver is, claiming he was dead. The kicker is she thinks Moira's still alive and calls Malcolm her dad. I mean, really? Why or how would she know that but not remember Oliver returning from the island?

It seemed more like a poor attempt to pull at the audience's heartstrings than anything else. You know: Having her forget the person who cares about her the most and bringing up Moira. She didn't need to know Malcolm was her father to do that, but then they couldn't have her say: "I love you, Dad." Pulling heartstrings again, which seems more important than consistent writing.

Later, still, she and Malcolm have a conversation where she says that she doesn't remember anything after Ra's attacked her. Talk about convenient. Even if what she said isn't true, the whole sequence of (Thea) events was unconvincing and lacking something. There's no sign of this "change" Thea was said to experience either, but it's supposed to continue into Season 4. Just have to wait and see, I guess.

It seems obvious to me, however, that the writers were too focused on the Oliver & Felicity romance this episode—trying to find a place for lines like "I love you all the more for it"—and neglected everything else, especially Thea's stuff. This episode clearly showed the romance taking top priority.

I have a strong dislike for this line in particular: "I am afraid I will never forgive myself for leaving you here." Why would you need to forgive yourself, Felicity? It's not as if you had any control or choice in the decision. It kinda reminds me of Harry Dresden's most annoying flaw, at least to me: his misplaced guilt, constantly blaming himself for things out of his control.

It wasn't all bad, though. The flashbacks were somewhat decent, but nearly everything that happened before they went to Nanda Parbat was the best part. And Malcolm got the chance to shine throughout the whole episode, which was nice. One thing that stood out to me was how Stephen Amell held himself in the hospital. I kept thinking: Is it cold in there? Turn up the heat. The man looks cold.

"I will acknowledge that I am not an Olicity 'shipper—Oliver is too emotionally stunted and messed up for me to imagine him involved with anyone—and as a result, there's no sense of joy, let alone caring, that the two of them finally had sex. I'll happily grant that if you are an Olicity 'shipper, it probably played as a relief that it finally happened, and you may have even been a bit charmed by her confrontation with Ra's and her harebrained scheme to sneak out of the League of Assassins' headquarters. As for me, I enjoyed Ra's giving her the necessary bit of pragmatism the situation dictated, and felt like her escape "plan" made her look sort of ridiculous. Ridiculously in love, yes, but still a little ridiculous." Noel Kirkpatrick wrote that, but it perfectly describes how I felt about those situations.

In the end, it was a lackluster episode that served as a setup for the remainder of the season, which I'm expecting to be much more interesting and eventful. I rate "The Fallen" a 5. I'll just toss this episode in the scrap heap and move on.

[NightHawk777]

Ahh.. I think you missed the theme because it was connected to Maseao not Ollie.

The theme was "if you don't try [to save the innocent] you're just a shell." Tatsu says it to Maseao when he questions going to the market to recover the virus. And Maseao gives it as his reason for helping the team spirit Ollie out of Nanda Parbat.

i'm intrigued by the implications of this for Maseao. He appears to be awakening from the numbness he's been in since Aiko died. First when he rescued Ollie after his duel with Ra's and now siding with Team Arrow to get Ollie away from a fate he knows Ollie does not want. It seems to me, Ollie is not the only one wrestling with identity and I think Maseao will play a big role in these final episodes helping Oliver overcome Ra's and the League.

I think you're right here. Maseo has been a sort of shell in the present day. Even to the point of claiming Maseo is dead, and he is Sarab. Maybe he can help Ollie hang to his identity, since he apparently lost his own to some extent.

[tua33915]

I'm dissapointed that they are putting so much on melodrama and pairing in superhero action show. I don't care who the guy in the green hood with bow and arrow is going to end up with.

-Amarice

It's the CW. Melodrama and pairings is what they do. And their core audience demographic does care who he ends up with. The network knows where their bread is buttered.

[Amarice]

It's the CW. Melodrama and pairings is what they do. And their core audience demographic does care who he ends up with. The network knows where their bread is buttered.

I was not familiar with this television network before Arrow and I actually didn't fully understand what it meant when I heard here and there that the season 1 is way too good for CW. Well, now I know. For the time being I'm glad that there was at last one good season and one decent, and that Arrow made me more interested in orginal Green Arrow comics. I guess as long as I'm able to enjoy separate scenes/subplots I'm going to stick with the show.

[evaba]

I'm dissapointed that they are putting so much on melodrama and pairing in superhero action show. I don't care who the guy in the green hood with bow and arrow is going to end up with.

-Amarice

It's the CW. Melodrama and pairings is what they do. And their core audience demographic does care who he ends up with. The network knows where their bread is buttered.

Well, if romance and Olicity is what brings in the viewers, how come the ratings for "The Fallen" didn't soar? It got a 1.0 rating and 2.72 million viewers, which nothing exceptional for season three. Heck, even the so-called "Canary Trilogy" , which many oliciters threatened to boycott, and others claimed would make the ratings plummet (probably because they believe that every viewer dislikes Laurel as much as they do!) did better in the ratings. Of course, these eps were as much about Felicity and the other characters as Laurel, but the viewers couldn't know that beforehand, and yet they tuned in!

My point is that Felicity and her romance with Oliver may not be cash cow/audience magnet that Guggenheim obviously believes they are. It may very well be that the casual viewers (as opposed to the social media shipper fandom that is apparently so important to the CW) just want a good superhero show with cohesive/consistent storytelling and competent acting, rather than romance angst between two characters/actors who maybe don't have such IMMENSE chemistry as their fans claim they have. I mean, if Olicity is such an asset to the show, how come so many fans complain about the season three romance? And who should a showrunner aim to please? The comparatively small social media fandom that flocks to his twitter/tumblr ask, or the general audience? So far it seems that Guggenheim and his writers have gone out of their way to cater to the Felicity/Olicity fans, and yet their biggest Olicity-fest, "The Fallen" didn't get spectacular ratings, and is generally regarded as a poor episode by the non-shipper fans.

[Eowin]

I actually don't get why ppl are surprised there is romance on a comic book show. Superheros are always hooking up and having drama in the actual comic books.... It's not like it's exclusively happening on the show and not in the comics. I mean, there is a reason for Lois Lane, etc.. It IS part of the genre.

[Julie***]

I don't get why everybody thinks Olicity shippers automatically hate Laurel. I for one like Olicity together, had enough of Laurel in season 2 for obvious reasons and think she made a pretty good recovery this season. I loved Felicity season 1 and 2 and can still say that this season whenever she has one of her crying outburst I sometime think please shut up. Doesn't mean I am hopeful for the return of our funny Felicity!

[Nibbio]

Nice! 9/10