View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Great!

    10 35.71%
  • 9

    5 17.86%
  • 8

    5 17.86%
  • 7

    3 10.71%
  • 6

    3 10.71%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    1 3.57%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - These writers need to turn themselves in.

    1 3.57%
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  1. #61
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    Abuse of power apparently runs in the Lance family. I remember when Laurel was trying to prevent Ray from getting any help from the SCPD because he found out Oliver is Arrow. I thought that was abuse of power also. Maybe they are showing us Lance's getting corrupted by power and position? I really hope not, because I like them both.
    I just wanna say I was disappointed in Laurel for that.

  2. #62
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    It's obvious we have very differing levels of acceptance. You believe in "Thou shall not kill" as the highest law to abide while I believe that no crime is worse than one commited for self gratification, regardless if a death is involved or not. Sometimes crimes not involving a death can be far more tramatic and the suffering longer and much more painful. For me accepting Oliver's transgressions in season 1+2 as well as Quentin's in season 2 but condeming Quentin now in season 3 is an acceptable standard to hold both to because I'm holding both to the standard of what they're doing for the improvement of society as a whole vs personal gratification. Why is it acceptable to hold a combat medic and a neuro surgeon to different standards? Both are trained to save lives and both fail if a patient dies on the operating table. I hold them to differing standards not because of the training they receive but the personal gratification they strive for in attaining specialized training.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I just wanna say I was disappointed in Laurel for that.
    Me too. I've been quite often disappointed in the way Laurel uses her position as assistant DA this season.

    I haven't quite forgiven the show's writers for setting up a situation in which the main hero that we're supposed to root for is a serial killer, so I do agree that Oliver deserves whatever justice comes his way. But two wrongs don't make a right. I didn't quite buy Quentin helping the Arrow last season and being completely cool with him either, but his motivations and methods this season are a big issue. I also don't get how he's pursuing the Arrow without even trying to find the copycat too. And if he's really going to try to bring Oliver to court for the murders that happened this season, Oliver has an ironclad alibi for the ones that happened during the Diggle wedding, so the case might fall apart at that alone.

  4. #64
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    It's obvious we have very differing levels of acceptance. You believe in "Thou shall not kill" as the highest law to abide while I believe that no crime is worse than one commited for self gratification, regardless if a death is involved or not. Sometimes crimes not involving a death can be far more tramatic and the suffering longer and much more painful. For me accepting Oliver's transgressions in season 1+2 as well as Quentin's in season 2 but condeming Quentin now in season 3 is an acceptable standard to hold both to because I'm holding both to the standard of what they're doing for the improvement of society as a whole vs personal gratification. Why is it acceptable to hold a combat medic and a neuro surgeon to different standards? Both are trained to save lives and both fail if a patient dies on the operating table. I hold them to differing standards not because of the training they receive but the personal gratification they strive for in attaining specialized training.
    Because combat medics have a different environment and different tools at their disposal. Not to mention, they are different jobs. Legal jobs, I'd like to point out. Both legal jobs. A more apt comparison in this situation would be a random person and a doctor. It also isn't a moral issue. And what I believe is that killing can be a necessary thing to save lives for both Oliver and cops. But, when Oliver killed, those weren't his usual reasons. He hunted people down and shot them with arrows. And a lot them were just thugs or henchmen. To use the Pilot as an example: Adam Hunt has two henchmen. Oliver murders one of them in cold blood and murders the second when he pulls out a gun in defense. The first one didn't have any gun out. He was defenseless. The Predator has more honor than Oliver Queen.

  5. #65
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    Me too. I've been quite often disappointed in the way Laurel uses her position as assistant DA this season.

    I haven't quite forgiven the show's writers for setting up a situation in which the main hero that we're supposed to root for is a serial killer, so I do agree that Oliver deserves whatever justice comes his way. But two wrongs don't make a right. I didn't quite buy Quentin helping the Arrow last season and being completely cool with him either, but his motivations and methods this season are a big issue. I also don't get how he's pursuing the Arrow without even trying to find the copycat too. And if he's really going to try to bring Oliver to court for the murders that happened this season, Oliver has an ironclad alibi for the ones that happened during the Diggle wedding, so the case might fall apart at that alone.
    The first time wasn't an issue for me, because it was threat. But the second time. That was an active violation. And it was to a guy who was just doing what he thought was right. She just came off not very well in that scene. Certainly, his motivations this season are a big issue. I'm not denying that. To me, it's not really an issue of two wrongs, it's an issue of how big those wrongs are. Oliver's are worse.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Because combat medics have a different environment and different tools at their disposal. Not to mention, they are different jobs. Legal jobs, I'd like to point out. Both legal jobs. A more apt comparison in this situation would be a random person and a doctor. It also isn't a moral issue. And what I believe is that killing can be a necessary thing to save lives for both Oliver and cops. But, when Oliver killed, those weren't his usual reasons. He hunted people down and shot them with arrows. And a lot them were just thugs or henchmen. To use the Pilot as an example: Adam Hunt has two henchmen. Oliver murders one of them in cold blood and murders the second when he pulls out a gun in defense. The first one didn't have any gun out. He was defenseless. The Predator has more honor than Oliver Queen.
    I'm not holding them to standards in their respective enviroments but in equal situations, meaning both in a well equipped ER or both out at an accident scene as first responders where their skills matter and not how well equipped they are. I've known medics that were better "doctors" than actual med graduate physicians regardless of the environment or the tools at their disposal. Actually a random person and a doctor wouldn't be a fitting comparison. While somebody off the streets might know how to apply a bandage and maybe knows CPR they probably don't know the first thing about what to do about a punctured lung or hemoroids, on the otherhand just about everybody knows basic laws even if they don't know specifics about police work. Simply put we have differing views on the issue, I don't agree with your take but that's your opinion and I have mine.

  7. #67
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    Just thought I'd toss in two cents...
    I think the original intent of the show was an overall theme of redemption. They are showing how Oliver got to where he was in the first episode by the flashbacks (no, this is no excuse for his actions), they have shown how he was at the beginning (yes, he asked gave some of the ringleaders a chance to correct their wrongs before he "fixed" them his way), and they have shown him trying to redeem himself and his past actions by becoming a hero.
    I do not think the question is did he do bad things or how bad the things were he did. I think the real theme is (or should be) can someone as bad as he is/was be redeemed; can they change. Whether it is prison or religion or an idea or just the will to change, is there redemption.
    That being said, I think they are trying to paint everyone as having tendencies toward abuse of power, greed, pride, etc. whether for societal good, personal gain, or just for evil's sake. And then they try to determine if said person is redeemed, condemned or sacrificed for the greater good.
    As one person has commented, the world is not black and white (as much as I would like it to be), and the show reflects that. Hopefully, the ultimate theme of any comic or comic bases show will be redemption, not judgement or punishment, because we all need to know that even we, ourselves, can be redeemed from the (hopefully less) bad tendencies we recognize in ourselves, even in a non black and white world.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    What you said could easily be used to describe the feeling of the loved ones of the people that Oliver's murdered. Not even evil crime bosses either. But just random thugs. People who have husbands and wives and mothers and fathers and grand-parents and great grand parents, and aunts and uncles and friends, and children. The pain of their families matters just as much. It's debilitating. Crushing. Miserable. The kind that just eats away at your soul. Think about that and tell me again it was pointed in the right direction. A show that asks me to value justice and morality cannot apply a different set of morals for the main character than it does for everyone else.
    I had actually thought about the loved ones of those that Oliver had killed before you pointed them out, and it is true that the deaths that he caused gave them grief as well. Neither situation is exactly right. That's why I said it was pointed in the right direction rather than saying it was just plain right. Yes, some of the things Oliver has done before were wrong, but his good deeds far outweighed the bad deeds. However, there is no good in letting Ra's al Ghul go free. Simply put, the reason I believe Lance's efforts were pointed in the right direction before but not now comes down to his motivations. When he was letting the Arrow go free, he was doing it because the Arrow was helping to clean up the city. His reasons for not trying to put the Arrow behind bars had to do with serving justice to the criminals that the Arrow was helping to bring down. Now, his motivations for trying to punish Oliver and allowing Ra's al Ghul go free have very little to do with justice. They have to do with a personal grudge.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    Abuse of power apparently runs in the Lance family. I remember when Laurel was trying to prevent Ray from getting any help from the SCPD because he found out Oliver is Arrow. I thought that was abuse of power also. Maybe they are showing us Lance's getting corrupted by power and position? I really hope not, because I like them both.
    Very good point. Laurel was abusing her power there.

  9. #69
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    Identity, what defines one's identity, has been a main theme this whole season (they pretty much hit us over the head with it with Ollie's "battle" with the Arrow in the premiere, and again with Ollie's struggle with the Ra's offer.).

    And not just with Ollie, but with Laurel, Thea and most of the cast. Even Diggle, who I consider to be the most stable of the group, has been trying to balance his conflicting roles as team member, husband and father. Felicity is also going through an identity crisis of sorts, though in her case it's more about her sometimes conflicting roles as team member and potential love interest for two (three if you count Barry ) superheroes.

    It may be S3 but I've seen it as Laurel's "S1" in terms of launching her BC career, so she is dealing with many of the issues a novice crimefighter would run into, finding the line between serving justice and seeking vengeance etc.

    They haven't handled Quentin's own identity crisis as well, and the rehashing of old themes re: Sara and its attached melodrama doesn't help. The fact that he brought up his resentment at Ollie/the Arrow making him his "accomplice" (his words) in Year Two suggests to me that being co-opted into the Arrow's vigilante campaign no longer agrees with him. And while he did hold that PR conference praising the Arrow's efforts to save their city, this doesn't mean that he had no reservations about it.

    What he said in public as a police captain early this season and what he now thinks/believes in private seemed to be increasingly in conflict this season, hence his irritation in a previous episode with Ollie dropping off the latest criminals he caught at his doorstep, and the implication that Quentin will clean it up for him -- it's like Ollie was dropping off the garbage but not bothering to separate the recyclables from the trash ... and expecting the garbage man (Quentin) to do this work for him. Quentin didn't mind in S2, but it looks like this is now grating on him. In the process, Quentin gets his hands dirtier and dirtier, metaphorically speaking.

    In S3, Quentin is getting sick of/annoyed at cleaning up the Arrow's crap, getting himself (and by extension SCPD) dirtier while Ollie/the Arrow gets to at least appear cleaner.

    Yes, he's mad about Ollie taking Sara aboard the Gambit and lying about what happened to her -- they've repeated this ad infinitum in the series. But in S3, they have planted a few nuggets like above that suggest that Quentin is also going through an identity crisis when you view it through the prism of S3's identity theme.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Identity, what defines one's identity, has been a main theme this whole season (they pretty much hit us over the head with it with Ollie's "battle" with the Arrow in the premiere, and again with Ollie's struggle with the Ra's offer.).

    And not just with Ollie, but with Laurel, Thea and most of the cast. Even Diggle, who I consider to be the most stable of the group, has been trying to balance his conflicting roles as team member, husband and father. Felicity is also going through an identity crisis of sorts, though in her case it's more about her sometimes conflicting roles as team member and potential love interest for two (three if you count Barry ) superheroes.

    It may be S3 but I've seen it as Laurel's "S1" in terms of launching her BC career, so she is dealing with many of the issues a novice crimefighter would run into, finding the line between serving justice and seeking vengeance etc.

    They haven't handled Quentin's own identity crisis as well, and the rehashing of old themes re: Sara and its attached melodrama doesn't help. The fact that he brought up his resentment at Ollie/the Arrow making him his "accomplice" (his words) in Year Two suggests to me that being co-opted into the Arrow's vigilante campaign no longer agrees with him. And while he did hold that PR conference praising the Arrow's efforts to save their city, this doesn't mean that he had no reservations about it.

    What he said in public as a police captain early this season and what he now thinks/believes in private seemed to be increasingly in conflict this season, hence his irritation in a previous episode with Ollie dropping off the latest criminals he caught at his doorstep, and the implication that Quentin will clean it up for him -- it's like Ollie was dropping off the garbage but not bothering to separate the recyclables from the trash ... and expecting the garbage man (Quentin) to do this work for him. Quentin didn't mind in S2, but it looks like this is now grating on him. In the process, Quentin gets his hands dirtier and dirtier, metaphorically speaking.

    In S3, Quentin is getting sick of/annoyed at cleaning up the Arrow's crap, getting himself (and by extension SCPD) dirtier while Ollie/the Arrow gets to at least appear cleaner.

    Yes, he's mad about Ollie taking Sara aboard the Gambit and lying about what happened to her -- they've repeated this ad infinitum in the series. But in S3, they have planted a few nuggets like above that suggest that Quentin is also going through an identity crisis when you view it through the prism of S3's identity theme.
    I can buy Quentin going through an identity crisis but I would prefer the showrunners bringing that to the forefront instead of leaving it in the background and bringing forth the melodrama that in turns seems to make the characters reactions and actions seem so erradic. Maybe I need to be taken by the hand and guided step by step simply because I don't want to have to diagnose each and every character for weeks on end after every episode.

    As for Oliver/the Arrow dropping off the trash at the SCPD, garbageman Quentin really shouldn't be so upset since it's his job to go out and collect the trash in the first place regardless if it's been seperated or not, he should be thankful it's being delivered. I think he's overstepping his bounds requesting it to be tied up in pretty little bows with air fresheners attached since Quentin's job is to be catching these criminals himself without the aide of some random vigilante. I'd have to think Quentin's not so much upset that the Arrow is dropping them off (if he's half the cop he thinks he is) but more upset that he's not the one out there catching them, an inferiority complex that he's not up to the job he and his men are supposed to be doing. Quentin's lashing out is similar to Laurel during her addiction phase in order to detract from the true problem.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 04-07-2015 at 07:41 AM.

  11. #71
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    And this is exactly why shows like Smallville frustrated the heck out of me and many viewers. (And Arrow and Flash share the same network DNA). That we have to distill, or feel the need to, distill such details or anything meaningful amidst all the melodramatic excess speaks more to the series writing quality and its over-reliance on melodrama as a substitute for decent plot/character development.

    Some of Quentin's motivations for his anti-Arrow crusade are indeed questionable, rooted as they are in the Sara's death melodrama. On this there's little doubt. But on the wider issue of vigilantism, I'd say he has some justification to objecting to becoming an accomplice of Team Arrow. I know, it's a rehashed Quentin beef from S1 but the series does love reheated leftovers. All I'm saying is there's a grain of truth to Quentin's melodrama-heavy tirades of late.

    With the whole garbage analogy, it is Quentin's job to throw out the trash ie. catch and process criminals ... plus deal with the blowback (political, criminal, etc.). What Quentin may have issue with is that the Arrow or any vigilante (ATOM, Arsenal etc.) can simply escape into the night and -- intentionally or not -- choose not to deal with the blowback aka leave the mess to the cops and the public officials who can't slink into the night. I was basically addressing the issue that, while Team Arrow and Quentin may be pursuing the same goals re: getting the bad guys, the blowback, accountability etc. for its consequences, clean or not, is something they all have to own: Quentin, the cops ... and Oliver Queen. And this is an issue that has existed even before Quentin's anti-Arrow quest.

    Team Arrow doesn't always own up to the fallout their activities may cause. S3 is the season I think (hope) they own their crap to a greater degree than they've ever had before. I took two things away from Quentin and Ollie's van chat: 1) Quentin is mad at Ollie for all the Sara melodrama, secrets and lies. No surprise there. It's a driving force for his punishing Ollie. 2) Team Arrow needs to own their crap. Not just getting criminals and a pat on the back, but the consequences of their actions (or inaction). When they've played outside the law as long as they have, they have to realize that the fallout isn't always clean. They need to own it. From this perspective, Roy stepping up to take the fall for the Arrow is a tremendous statement in at least one member of their team "owning" it.

    (I've just been binge-watching Sons of Anarchy, so the concepts of fallout, blowback and "owning one's crap" have a lot of meaning for me right now. )

    As for cops in general on a CW network show, I think it's safe to say that the average viewer would be giving them far too much credit to think they're competent let alone effective, vigilante assistance or not. Thank you, Lowell County Sheriff's Department for this unfortunate legacy. The cops can't function without superhero assistance, the superheroes can't operate without the cops allowing them to do so. It's a give-and-take relationship that both sides take for granted. The moment one side or other thinks this isn't the case, chaos reigns and the whole suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

    This is why I have to believe that Quentin figured out that Ollie = Arrow long before Ra's told him. He didn't let on he knew -- for the greater good. If it actually took Ra's spelling it out for him to learn the truth , then he should never have made grade again and instead of promotion to captaincy, he should be directing traffic in the Glades as a beat cop.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    And this is exactly why shows like Smallville frustrated the heck out of me and many viewers. (And Arrow and Flash share the same network DNA). That we have to distill, or feel the need to, distill such details or anything meaningful amidst all the melodramatic excess speaks more to the series writing quality and its over-reliance on melodrama as a substitute for decent plot/character development.

    Some of Quentin's motivations for his anti-Arrow crusade are indeed questionable, rooted as they are in the Sara's death melodrama. On this there's little doubt. But on the wider issue of vigilantism, I'd say he has some justification to objecting to becoming an accomplice of Team Arrow. I know, it's a rehashed Quentin beef from S1 but the series does love reheated leftovers. All I'm saying is there's a grain of truth to Quentin's melodrama-heavy tirades of late.

    With the whole garbage analogy, it is Quentin's job to throw out the trash ie. catch and process criminals ... plus deal with the blowback (political, criminal, etc.). What Quentin may have issue with is that the Arrow or any vigilante (ATOM, Arsenal etc.) can simply escape into the night and -- intentionally or not -- choose not to deal with the blowback aka leave the mess to the cops and the public officials who can't slink into the night. I was basically addressing the issue that, while Team Arrow and Quentin may be pursuing the same goals re: getting the bad guys, the blowback, accountability etc. for its consequences, clean or not, is something they all have to own: Quentin, the cops ... and Oliver Queen. And this is an issue that has existed even before Quentin's anti-Arrow quest.

    Team Arrow doesn't always own up to the fallout their activities may cause. S3 is the season I think (hope) they own their crap to a greater degree than they've ever had before. I took two things away from Quentin and Ollie's van chat: 1) Quentin is mad at Ollie for all the Sara melodrama, secrets and lies. No surprise there. It's a driving force for his punishing Ollie. 2) Team Arrow needs to own their crap. Not just getting criminals and a pat on the back, but the consequences of their actions (or inaction). When they've played outside the law as long as they have, they have to realize that the fallout isn't always clean. They need to own it. From this perspective, Roy stepping up to take the fall for the Arrow is a tremendous statement in at least one member of their team "owning" it.

    (I've just been binge-watching Sons of Anarchy, so the concepts of fallout, blowback and "owning one's crap" have a lot of meaning for me right now. )

    As for cops in general on a CW network show, I think it's safe to say that the average viewer would be giving them far too much credit to think they're competent let alone effective, vigilante assistance or not. Thank you, Lowell County Sheriff's Department for this unfortunate legacy. The cops can't function without superhero assistance, the superheroes can't operate without the cops allowing them to do so. It's a give-and-take relationship that both sides take for granted. The moment one side or other thinks this isn't the case, chaos reigns and the whole suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

    This is why I have to believe that Quentin figured out that Ollie = Arrow long before Ra's told him. He didn't let on he knew -- for the greater good. If it actually took Ra's spelling it out for him to learn the truth , then he should never have made grade again and instead of promotion to captaincy, he should be directing traffic in the Glades as a beat cop.
    Directing traffic might be to complicated and demanding, maybe hand out parking tickets? I can buy your take on the garbage analogy, makes sense and yes, I think the only one with his head on straight right now is Roy and possibly Diggle who may have come to a final conclusion about his role within Team Arrow. As for the women, not sure about Thea yet (she seems to be moving in the right direction) but Laurel is definately on the right track, Felicity is somewhere wandering around in left field.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lois_Lane_Fan View Post
    I had actually thought about the loved ones of those that Oliver had killed before you pointed them out, and it is true that the deaths that he caused gave them grief as well. Neither situation is exactly right. That's why I said it was pointed in the right direction rather than saying it was just plain right. Yes, some of the things Oliver has done before were wrong, but his good deeds far outweighed the bad deeds. However, there is no good in letting Ra's al Ghul go free. Simply put, the reason I believe Lance's efforts were pointed in the right direction before but not now comes down to his motivations. When he was letting the Arrow go free, he was doing it because the Arrow was helping to clean up the city. His reasons for not trying to put the Arrow behind bars had to do with serving justice to the criminals that the Arrow was helping to bring down. Now, his motivations for trying to punish Oliver and allowing Ra's al Ghul go free have very little to do with justice. They have to do with a personal grudge.
    Nobody's life or pain can be outweighed. Ever. Oliver's good actions don't change what he's done, it doesn't make it okay. Or better. It doesn't justify or nullify anything. He will always have done that. That can't be changed and it can't be outweighed. You call Lance not putting Arrow in jail serving justice, but it's not. It's a corruption of justice. An allowance of unjust behavior. An allowance of pain and suffering to occur under his watch. It's ignorance. Which is about the same level of corruption, as far I'm concerned. It's no one's place or duty to decide that Oliver's allowed to run around after murdered dozens of people. You know who should decide? Why don't they drag the families and friends of the people Oliver's murdered, set them down in front Oliver and see what they decide. Force him to stare into the faces of the orphaned children and the heartbroken spouses, of the parents who have now had to suffer through the torture of outliving their children because he just decided that their lives weren't important. You know what? Oliver should be thinking about that anyway. If Oliver doesn't have nightmares of scared children without parents, or widows just alone, trying to figure out to get by without their loved one, of destroyed parents and families, then he deserves to be arrested. No matter by what means.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    And this is exactly why shows like Smallville frustrated the heck out of me and many viewers. (And Arrow and Flash share the same network DNA). That we have to distill, or feel the need to, distill such details or anything meaningful amidst all the melodramatic excess speaks more to the series writing quality and its over-reliance on melodrama as a substitute for decent plot/character development.

    Some of Quentin's motivations for his anti-Arrow crusade are indeed questionable, rooted as they are in the Sara's death melodrama. On this there's little doubt. But on the wider issue of vigilantism, I'd say he has some justification to objecting to becoming an accomplice of Team Arrow. I know, it's a rehashed Quentin beef from S1 but the series does love reheated leftovers. All I'm saying is there's a grain of truth to Quentin's melodrama-heavy tirades of late.

    With the whole garbage analogy, it is Quentin's job to throw out the trash ie. catch and process criminals ... plus deal with the blowback (political, criminal, etc.). What Quentin may have issue with is that the Arrow or any vigilante (ATOM, Arsenal etc.) can simply escape into the night and -- intentionally or not -- choose not to deal with the blowback aka leave the mess to the cops and the public officials who can't slink into the night. I was basically addressing the issue that, while Team Arrow and Quentin may be pursuing the same goals re: getting the bad guys, the blowback, accountability etc. for its consequences, clean or not, is something they all have to own: Quentin, the cops ... and Oliver Queen. And this is an issue that has existed even before Quentin's anti-Arrow quest.

    Team Arrow doesn't always own up to the fallout their activities may cause. S3 is the season I think (hope) they own their crap to a greater degree than they've ever had before. I took two things away from Quentin and Ollie's van chat: 1) Quentin is mad at Ollie for all the Sara melodrama, secrets and lies. No surprise there. It's a driving force for his punishing Ollie. 2) Team Arrow needs to own their crap. Not just getting criminals and a pat on the back, but the consequences of their actions (or inaction). When they've played outside the law as long as they have, they have to realize that the fallout isn't always clean. They need to own it. From this perspective, Roy stepping up to take the fall for the Arrow is a tremendous statement in at least one member of their team "owning" it.

    (I've just been binge-watching Sons of Anarchy, so the concepts of fallout, blowback and "owning one's crap" have a lot of meaning for me right now. )

    As for cops in general on a CW network show, I think it's safe to say that the average viewer would be giving them far too much credit to think they're competent let alone effective, vigilante assistance or not. Thank you, Lowell County Sheriff's Department for this unfortunate legacy. The cops can't function without superhero assistance, the superheroes can't operate without the cops allowing them to do so. It's a give-and-take relationship that both sides take for granted. The moment one side or other thinks this isn't the case, chaos reigns and the whole suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

    This is why I have to believe that Quentin figured out that Ollie = Arrow long before Ra's told him. He didn't let on he knew -- for the greater good. If it actually took Ra's spelling it out for him to learn the truth , then he should never have made grade again and instead of promotion to captaincy, he should be directing traffic in the Glades as a beat cop.
    I mostly agree. Oliver shouldn't get to run off and not be held accountable for his actions. I really love Roy right now. He's hitting all the right beats as a really good person. He legitimately feels bad about killing someone. Like, real guilt. So much so he throws himself on the sword even though it wasn't his fault. It's kind of amazing. He even went to the families house. That's... really decent.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Nobody's life or pain can be outweighed. Ever. Oliver's good actions don't change what he's done, it doesn't make it okay. Or better. It doesn't justify or nullify anything. He will always have done that. That can't be changed and it can't be outweighed. You call Lance not putting Arrow in jail serving justice, but it's not. It's a corruption of justice. An allowance of unjust behavior. An allowance of pain and suffering to occur under his watch. It's ignorance. Which is about the same level of corruption, as far I'm concerned. It's no one's place or duty to decide that Oliver's allowed to run around after murdered dozens of people. You know who should decide? Why don't they drag the families and friends of the people Oliver's murdered, set them down in front Oliver and see what they decide. Force him to stare into the faces of the orphaned children and the heartbroken spouses, of the parents who have now had to suffer through the torture of outliving their children because he just decided that their lives weren't important. You know what? Oliver should be thinking about that anyway. If Oliver doesn't have nightmares of scared children without parents, or widows just alone, trying to figure out to get by without their loved one, of destroyed parents and families, then he deserves to be arrested. No matter by what means.
    You continually bring up the pain and suffering of those close to somebody killed, is that truly more painful and tragic than tenants living in houses controlled by slum lords, forced to live their entire lives below the poverty level? Is the trama really longer than that of an unborn child forced to go through withdrawal upon birth because the mother is sold illegal drugs on a street corner? What about the suffering, pain and trama not only a family but also the victim themselves have to endure from a kidnapper or rapist? The theft of the sole item left behind after a very dear loved one passed away? Certainly those left behind of someone killed suffer a great loss but it's not the only form of loss nor is it the ultimate trama of suffering one could face. For many other forms of crime are just as tramatic and painful with a fear and paranoia that follows them for the rest of their lives.

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