View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Great!

    10 35.71%
  • 9

    5 17.86%
  • 8

    5 17.86%
  • 7

    3 10.71%
  • 6

    3 10.71%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    1 3.57%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - These writers need to turn themselves in.

    1 3.57%
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  1. #16
    Site Groupie spotteddog's Avatar
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    I will say this - if I ever decide to go back into the job market, I will NOT work for Oliver Queen. Look at his current employee Roy. Sure, Oliver, I will take huge shot of electricity and fall over half dead, and you can just leave me on the ground. Or if we are trapped in a building full of armed police, all hunting us with live ammo, take care of yourself and everyone else and just abandon me - I will be fine...

    Talk about maintaining a dangerous work environment !!

  2. #17
    Black Canary dreamsofnever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spotteddog View Post
    I will say this - if I ever decide to go back into the job market, I will NOT work for Oliver Queen. Look at his current employee Roy. Sure, Oliver, I will take huge shot of electricity and fall over half dead, and you can just leave me on the ground. Or if we are trapped in a building full of armed police, all hunting us with live ammo, take care of yourself and everyone else and just abandon me - I will be fine...

    Talk about maintaining a dangerous work environment !!
    Not to mention that it's just an unpaid internship! lol.

  3. #18
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    I think Roy is just the first of the team to take the fall for Oliver. I'm guessing the scene where Merlyn is watching the news cast is significant: Merlyn will dress as the Arrow and put on a magic arrow show, and then purposely get arrested. Captain Lance won't know what to do with himself with three Arrows in custody.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I liked it overall. Some issues with secrets and lies, but otherwise one of the better eps. this season.

    Everything is unfolding as Ra's said it would (and planned to make it unfold this way.) And with all the secrets and lies Ollie and his team have been keeping, it was all too easy for Ra's and the LoA to tug at one thread to make it all unravel. It's not like the secrets and lies were keeping themselves. They were always at risk of exposure, Ra's just kicked the door open to them.

    It was a dramatically heavy episode, so I didn't have as much issue with the lighter Raylicity subplot. The premature I-love-you? Sorry about that, Ray. I was hoping Raylicity would have more wind in its sails, if only to forestall Olicity coming back with renewed strength ... but who am I kidding. The show will milk Olicity for all its worth into the finale. By Zod, let it find its soapy end then.

    The HK flashbacks didn't do much for me, other than reinforcing the "power of truth" theme in the main plot.

    I don't see it as much of an issue that Quentin didn't rehash the -- at this point, too-repetitive -- melodramatic nonsense re: Laurel and Sara's death because as a viewer, I've had my fill of this particular secret, which has already been exhausted/exploited to death in S3 as a Lance family wedge issue. And anyway, he had a full serving of Ollie's own secrets and lies re: Sara in this episode. Blackthorne was great in this episode, and again, it's regrettable that the non-melodramatic point his character was making -- when you detach it (pry it with extreme difficulty?) from the "Sara's secret" melodrama drivel -- was that he's hating what his complicity in the Hood/the Arrow's vigilantism has done to him, what it has made him do/become, both as a cop who allegedly serves justice and to his integrity in this role. This is my own takeaway from their scene in the van, as difficult as it may be to separate it from the "you didn't tell me that Sara was dead!" sudsy crap.

    Yeah, he's still understandably sore about secrets and lies around Sara's death -- and it's unfortunate that the show continues to rehash old and even previous-seasons issues (they continue to milk Roy's guilt over killing that cop back in S2, as another example, using this to motivate his Arrow bait-and-switch move). My concern would be that the switcheroo actually convinces Quentin and the cops that they got the wrong guy -- and that the legitimate issues he and the authorities have with Ollie and team's brand of vigilantism will simply be washed under the bridge, or worse, forgotten beneath the melodramatic aftermath of Sara's death.

    (Wouldn't any sharp-eyed cop notice that Roy-Arrow is shorter than the guy who's been on rooftops for the past three years? In SC -- probably not )

    Ollie cannot smell like a rose after this ep., the lies and their consequences have bubbled up to the top now, and the choice Ollie has struggled with -- his conflicting identities as Queen and the Arrow -- is now before him. The choice has always remained his: is he more the Hood/the Arrow now -- or has Oliver Queen emerged from his long darkness?
    I disagree that it's his integrity he's trying to regain, if so I believe Lance would've brought forth arguments of how Oliver compromised Laurel and Quentin in their duties to uphold the law instead of rehashing Sara running off on the "Queen's Gambit" with him and her death along with the deaths "caused" by the Arrow's presence in Starling City. It was old season 1 Lance after Oliver Queen for destroying Quentin's life with a few additional deaths in his arguments to prove how evil Oliver is and nothing about his effect on those around him seeing that he totally ignores that Laurel took up Sara's mantel regardless of what Oliver or Quentin would have to say about it (also Oliver's fault in Quentin's eyes).

  5. #20
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    Somehow im not that impressed of the last ep

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    As I said, Paul Blackthorne was great but Captain Lance? For a character that has been shown to be so dedicated to the law with so many years of experience and even suceptable to emotional grief his reasoning for chasing Oliver Queen was once again reduced to personal vendetta and has nothing to do with either the law nor Sara's death. When Laurel confronts him he acknowledges that (he goes back to Sara's "death" on the Queen's Gambit without knowing what happened on the island or why Oliver and Sara where seperated there as reason for his chase even though he talked to Sara since this happened (guess it never dawned on him to ask her why she still stood by Oliver's side...)) it's once again a vendetta and the script in the van, while brilliantly acted, was so off. Why question Oliver Queen and then when he begins to answer tell him to shut up? Lance isn't looking for the truth, justice or answers, he's out to make Oliver Queen pay (even though there's a lot of hate for the Arrow for being with Sara it's specifically Oliver Queen that really fuels his rage). Neither is he upholding the law nor is he looking for closure for his daughter's death but instead using both for a personal attack on Oliver Queen.
    The character is all over the place but Paul Blackthorne is phenomenal!

  7. #22
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    As I said, Paul Blackthorne was great but Captain Lance? For a character that has been shown to be so dedicated to the law with so many years of experience and even suceptable to emotional grief his reasoning for chasing Oliver Queen was once again reduced to personal vendetta and has nothing to do with either the law nor Sara's death. When Laurel confronts him he acknowledges that (he goes back to Sara's "death" on the Queen's Gambit without knowing what happened on the island or why Oliver and Sara where seperated there as reason for his chase even though he talked to Sara since this happened (guess it never dawned on him to ask her why she still stood by Oliver's side...)) it's once again a vendetta and the script in the van, while brilliantly acted, was so off. Why question Oliver Queen and then when he begins to answer tell him to shut up? Lance isn't looking for the truth, justice or answers, he's out to make Oliver Queen pay (even though there's a lot of hate for the Arrow for being with Sara it's specifically Oliver Queen that really fuels his rage). Neither is he upholding the law nor is he looking for closure for his daughter's death but instead using both for a personal attack on Oliver Queen.
    I guess what they were trying to show here was that he blames him mainly for the whole movement he started - all those masked vigillantes and villains and for the crime in Staring going to the extreme level - it's as if the Arrow was luring ill fortune and misfortune. Paul Blackthorne's excellent acting makes me believe that he has his reasons to hate Oliver at this point. Whereas it's not the way I wanted Lance to go, I think that the biggest mistake was to make him so Arrow-friendly in season 2/first half of season 3. If he was more sceptical back then, more reluctant, it would work better. On the other hand it was easier, when he was an officer - as the police captain he has different point of view. I buy his rapid change into Angry!Lance only because Paul Blackthorne makes it believable. Mind that one of Lance's bad traits is to see everything in black and white colors. He tried to work outside the system with the Arrow and drift into the the shades of gray area only to came to realise that it brought more harm than good. That's is the main source of his rage.He is not completely lost though - the promo for "Broken Arrow" shows that he wants to help Roy. I hope that they keep something in store for Lance in the season 4. Writting him out would be a huge mistake and I hope that the showrunners are well aware of that.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    I guess what they were trying to show here was that he blames him mainly for the whole movement he started - all those masked vigillantes and villains and for the crime in Staring going to the extreme level - it's as if the Arrow was luring ill fortune and misfortune. Paul Blackthorne's excellent acting makes me believe that he has his reasons to hate Oliver at this point. Whereas it's not the way I wanted Lance to go, I think that the biggest mistake was to make him so Arrow-friendly in season 2/first half of season 3. If he was more sceptical back then, more reluctant, it would work better. On the other hand it was easier, when he was an officer - as the police captain he has different point of view. I buy his rapid change into Angry!Lance only because Paul Blackthorne makes it believable. Mind that one of Lance's bad traits is to see everything in black and white colors. He tried to work outside the system with the Arrow and drift into the the shades of gray area only to came to realise that it brought more harm than good. That's is the main source of his rage.He is not completely lost though - the promo for "Broken Arrow" shows that he wants to help Roy. I hope that they keep something in store for Lance in the season 4. Writting him out would be a huge mistake and I hope that the showrunners are well aware of that.
    And see that's what doesn't fit the character you've described with what has been scripted. Why dredge up Oliver running off with Sara on the "Queen's Gambit" and 20 question him about Lian Yu (you know Quentin wants to after Ra's bringing up Sara and Oliver were both alive on the island, it's what fueled his anger towards Oliver again) if it's about the movement he started as Arrow? If he sees everything in black and white then why help Roy? Roy Harper was a two-bit criminal before he teamed up with Oliver and became a vigilante just like Oliver, Lance was compromised by team Arrow while they went after Brick and Oliver wasn't even around so Roy is just as guilty as Oliver is even if he's not the ring leader.

  9. #24
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think it speaks more to Blackthorne's talent that he sold it so well as a character, than it does the convoluted logic Quentin had for pursuing Ollie. There's no doubt Sara's death was (and as of S3, still is, for melodramatic needs on the show ) a driving motive for his renewed anti-vigilante mission, but after three years it's not the only motivator -- just the one that gets most of the spotlight.

    I think it does go back to the "power of truth" theme in this ep. as well. In the van, Ollie did hear some hard truths (also hard for viewers to hear). He may not be a villain in the actual sense, but in some of the things he does -- the lies, secrets, moral compromises -- it can seem to Quentin that only a "villain" could continue to make such compromises again and again and still feel like he's done nothing wrong. And while Quentin does tend to look at things too much as either/or with no middle ground, it also doesn't mean that it automatically discredits some of the legitimate points he was trying to make here and in previous episodes beneath all the soapy, gooey "Sara-is-dead!!!" melodrama.

    Quentin didn't like being made a fool in Year One, with Ollie misleading him as the Hood and knowing exactly what happened to Sara yet deluding him into thinking Sara died aboard the Gambit. He didn't like being made an accomplice (and also a fool re: truth) in Year Two by thinking that the Arrow was serving the city as an incorruptible symbol of good he could trust, as far as this is possible with someone who wears a mask and looks like 21st-century not-so-merry outlaw with a quiver and bow.

    With the truth out, this trust is now broken and while Ollie and team may have entirely plausible reasons for keeping their secrets and telling their lies it's the lack of trust that hurts most for Quentin. The good they do, however vaguely this is defined, may outweigh this for some -- but for Quentin the cop whose sense of right and wrong is so rigid? In his ledger, it doesn't.

    With the truth, he can no longer delude himself into thinking that the 0.1% doubt he may have had re: "is Ollie the Arrow?" means that he can accept the Arrow's help in the (admittedly, naive, as a cop) belief that getting help on the streets from a nameless vigilante makes such compromises more palatable. Again, it sucks that the series continues to hash and rehash previous-seasons issues -- here with Quentin going on about Sara's death, and with Roy on his S2 cop-killing guilt -- and it did muddle Quentin's post-Sara story arc a bit.

    After three years, I'd have to believe that Quentin is looking at what he has done (eg. looking the other way or actively helping re: the Arrow's actions) and realizing that after making compromise after compromise ... his own hands have gotten pretty dirty. Some part of his anguish in the van must be rooted in this realization. They were both naive: Quentin for thinking that putting stock in someone who is outside the law doesn't come with a moral price, and Ollie for thinking that secrets and lies -- even in the name of justice -- don't come at a cost that can break the very trust you would need to keep your crusade on-track.

    (It's too bad the writing didn't live up to Blackthorne's abilities on this and stacked the deck with blah-blah CW melodrama. I'm sure he could have sold this existential side of it just as well.)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think it speaks more to Blackthorne's talent that he sold it so well as a character, than it does the convoluted logic Quentin had for pursuing Ollie. There's no doubt Sara's death was (and as of S3, still is, for melodramatic needs on the show ) a driving motive for his renewed anti-vigilante mission, but after three years it's not the only motivator -- just the one that gets most of the spotlight.

    I think it does go back to the "power of truth" theme in this ep. as well. In the van, Ollie did hear some hard truths (also hard for viewers to hear). He may not be a villain in the actual sense, but in some of the things he does -- the lies, secrets, moral compromises -- it can seem to Quentin that only a "villain" could continue to make such compromises again and again and still feel like he's done nothing wrong. And while Quentin does tend to look at things too much as either/or with no middle ground, it also doesn't mean that it automatically discredits some of the legitimate points he was trying to make here and in previous episodes beneath all the soapy, gooey "Sara-is-dead!!!" melodrama.

    Quentin didn't like being made a fool in Year One, with Ollie misleading him as the Hood and knowing exactly what happened to Sara yet deluding him into thinking Sara died aboard the Gambit. He didn't like being made an accomplice (and also a fool re: truth) in Year Two by thinking that the Arrow was serving the city as an incorruptible symbol of good he could trust, as far as this is possible with someone who wears a mask and looks like 21st-century not-so-merry outlaw with a quiver and bow.

    With the truth out, this trust is now broken and while Ollie and team may have entirely plausible reasons for keeping their secrets and telling their lies it's the lack of trust that hurts most for Quentin. The good they do, however vaguely this is defined, may outweigh this for some -- but for Quentin the cop whose sense of right and wrong is so rigid? In his ledger, it doesn't.

    With the truth, he can no longer delude himself into thinking that the 0.1% doubt he may have had re: "is Ollie the Arrow?" means that he can accept the Arrow's help in the (admittedly, naive, as a cop) belief that getting help on the streets from a nameless vigilante makes such compromises more palatable. Again, it sucks that the series continues to hash and rehash previous-seasons issues -- here with Quentin going on about Sara's death, and with Roy on his S2 cop-killing guilt -- and it did muddle Quentin's post-Sara story arc a bit.

    After three years, I'd have to believe that Quentin is looking at what he has done (eg. looking the other way or actively helping re: the Arrow's actions) and realizing that after making compromise after compromise ... his own hands have gotten pretty dirty. Some part of his anguish in the van must be rooted in this realization. They were both naive: Quentin for thinking that putting stock in someone who is outside the law doesn't come with a moral price, and Ollie for thinking that secrets and lies -- even in the name of justice -- don't come at a cost that can break the very trust you would need to keep your crusade on-track.

    (It's too bad the writing didn't live up to Blackthorne's abilities on this and stacked the deck with blah-blah CW melodrama. I'm sure he could have sold this existential side of it just as well.)
    I'm sure Paul Blackthorne could sell a freezer to an eskimo. We all can think of reasons for Quentin Lance to renew his crusade against the Arrow, I'm pointing out what we're being shown without trying to read the minds of the showrunners.

  11. #26
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    I think it's good that Lance is bringing up Sara and Lian Yu and all these things. In my mind, this is continuity, not rehashing. We never saw him come to grips with most of this stuff. All during the early part of this season where Laurel was hiding the death of Sara, we knew that it was going to be a powder keg when Lance found out. What were we expecting, an outburst with Laurel then sweep the issue under the rug? He doesn't even trust Laurel any more, so I guess he has regressed back to his basic stance, which is easy for him to understand.

    If Ollie hadn't cut the full immunity deal with him, then I expect he would also have arrested Felicity, Roy and even Laurel. So from his POV he is in a very tight spot.

    The one thing about him that bugs me this time is that he gets violently kidnapped by RAG. Then nothing more is said about it. You would think the manhunt would be after RAG, instead of Ollie. Violence against a cop usually gets the entire force attention.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    I think it's good that Lance is bringing up Sara and Lian Yu and all these things. In my mind, this is continuity, not rehashing. We never saw him come to grips with most of this stuff. All during the early part of this season where Laurel was hiding the death of Sara, we knew that it was going to be a powder keg when Lance found out. What were we expecting, an outburst with Laurel then sweep the issue under the rug? He doesn't even trust Laurel any more, so I guess he has regressed back to his basic stance, which is easy for him to understand.

    If Ollie hadn't cut the full immunity deal with him, then I expect he would also have arrested Felicity, Roy and even Laurel. So from his POV he is in a very tight spot.

    The one thing about him that bugs me this time is that he gets violently kidnapped by RAG. Then nothing more is said about it. You would think the manhunt would be after RAG, instead of Ollie. Violence against a cop usually gets the entire force attention.
    I re watched the scene where Quentin gets kidnapped and there was no one around. So that's the SCPD didn't have a massive man hunt. For Quentin why he didn't stop to think ok this guy captured me and maybe I should actually be cautious of what he's saying instead of believing every word like a man dying of thirst is another question. Although I guess it's because you might say Quentin is so filled with rage he can't think straight.

  13. #28
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    And see that's what doesn't fit the character you've described with what has been scripted. Why dredge up Oliver running off with Sara on the "Queen's Gambit" and 20 question him about Lian Yu (you know Quentin wants to after Ra's bringing up Sara and Oliver were both alive on the island, it's what fueled his anger towards Oliver again) if it's about the movement he started as Arrow? If he sees everything in black and white then why help Roy? Roy Harper was a two-bit criminal before he teamed up with Oliver and became a vigilante just like Oliver, Lance was compromised by team Arrow while they went after Brick and Oliver wasn't even around so Roy is just as guilty as Oliver is even if he's not the ring leader.
    Seems that he sees Roy more of the victim of the Arrow's schemes than the culprit. As for black and white - it's more about how he views Oliver's actions now, should have precise that in my previous post. But you're right, Paul Blackthorne's talent is an added value. It allows us to see more than standard CW drama, take out single lines and put the bigger picture from scraps. Sara's death and the broken trust are main things, which took him over the edge, but not the only one. Which brings me to President Luthor's post:

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor
    I think it speaks more to Blackthorne's talent that he sold it so well as a character, than it does the convoluted logic Quentin had for pursuing Ollie. There's no doubt Sara's death was (and as of S3, still is, for melodramatic needs on the show ) a driving motive for his renewed anti-vigilante mission, but after three years it's not the only motivator -- just the one that gets most of the spotlight.

    I think it does go back to the "power of truth" theme in this ep. as well. In the van, Ollie did hear some hard truths (also hard for viewers to hear). He may not be a villain in the actual sense, but in some of the things he does -- the lies, secrets, moral compromises -- it can seem to Quentin that only a "villain" could continue to make such compromises again and again and still feel like he's done nothing wrong. And while Quentin does tend to look at things too much as either/or with no middle ground, it also doesn't mean that it automatically discredits some of the legitimate points he was trying to make here and in previous episodes beneath all the soapy, gooey "Sara-is-dead!!!" melodrama.

    Quentin didn't like being made a fool in Year One, with Ollie misleading him as the Hood and knowing exactly what happened to Sara yet deluding him into thinking Sara died aboard the Gambit. He didn't like being made an accomplice (and also a fool re: truth) in Year Two by thinking that the Arrow was serving the city as an incorruptible symbol of good he could trust, as far as this is possible with someone who wears a mask and looks like 21st-century not-so-merry outlaw with a quiver and bow.

    With the truth out, this trust is now broken and while Ollie and team may have entirely plausible reasons for keeping their secrets and telling their lies it's the lack of trust that hurts most for Quentin. The good they do, however vaguely this is defined, may outweigh this for some -- but for Quentin the cop whose sense of right and wrong is so rigid? In his ledger, it doesn't.

    With the truth, he can no longer delude himself into thinking that the 0.1% doubt he may have had re: "is Ollie the Arrow?" means that he can accept the Arrow's help in the (admittedly, naive, as a cop) belief that getting help on the streets from a nameless vigilante makes such compromises more palatable. Again, it sucks that the series continues to hash and rehash previous-seasons issues -- here with Quentin going on about Sara's death, and with Roy on his S2 cop-killing guilt -- and it did muddle Quentin's post-Sara story arc a bit.

    After three years, I'd have to believe that Quentin is looking at what he has done (eg. looking the other way or actively helping re: the Arrow's actions) and realizing that after making compromise after compromise ... his own hands have gotten pretty dirty. Some part of his anguish in the van must be rooted in this realization. They were both naive: Quentin for thinking that putting stock in someone who is outside the law doesn't come with a moral price, and Ollie for thinking that secrets and lies -- even in the name of justice -- don't come at a cost that can break the very trust you would need to keep your crusade on-track.

    (It's too bad the writing didn't live up to Blackthorne's abilities on this and stacked the deck with blah-blah CW melodrama. I'm sure he could have sold this existential side of it just as well.)
    I totally agree. You made much more precise analysis than I.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777
    If Ollie hadn't cut the full immunity deal with him, then I expect he would also have arrested Felicity, Roy and even Laurel. So from his POV he is in a very tight spot.
    It has absolutely no sense why Felicity and Roy weren't immedietely arrested. I half expected that cops storming into Ray's hospital room and taking Felicity away in every moment. But instead we had more love drama and nanotech. I prefer not to think about the flaws of the plot, because overall I enjoyed the episode.

  14. #29
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    Alright Lance! I was wondering when you'd start treating Oliver like he deserves again! Take him down. Roy, man, I respect that you're feeling actual remorse and guilt for your crimes, and want to make yourself pay, but how about actually sort of letting Oliver take his lumps. He's kind of earned them.

  15. #30
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    Amazing latest episode!!! By no means am I a spoiler, but when you deal with tacky writers who never stay true to original story line in which truly grabbed our attention as children, its hard not to yell out things like, "NO" and "WHY". But this...... This episode brought validity to the whole story. Brought validity to the character of Speedy. Hopefully his journey will begin now, and as a big Green Arrow fan I can tell you the twists are amazing.
    I'm glad I've found a site of hopefully like minded individuals because I have a lot to talk about...

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