View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - I want to go back in time and watch this all over again

    19 55.88%
  • 9

    7 20.59%
  • 8

    5 14.71%
  • 7

    1 2.94%
  • 6

    1 2.94%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    1 2.94%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - This is so bad I wish I could erase my memory of seeing it

    0 0%
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  1. #46
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Yes, there can be a reason to tolerate Eddie but not Iris. Although, that one reason indicates that we should really gang up on the writer instead of the characters themselves. After all, it's really the writer's fault and not the characters themselves.

    You see, I've noticed that when a writer wants to stir up drama JUST BECAUSE, they often use female characters more than male characters. And if they do use a male character, they often make sure to write in motivation and reasons beforehand that actually make sense. So the viewers will be more likely to tolerate and root for the male characters than they do for the female character. They never do this for female characters.

    example it's often a very common trope, although it's very old as time and kind of sexist, that a woman is just naturally irrational. That she doesn't even know where her feelings come from, etc. That she doesn't know what she wants at all until it's too late for her! And so on forth.
    The most worst modern example of this is Barbara from Gotham. She's all over the place, and there's literally no good reasons for anything she does. She's pretty much the archetype of the hysterical woman who doesn't even know what she wants out of life. And you know what? the majority of viewers here just find her annoying.... and I do too.

    That trope you mentioned, is merely a offshoot of that tired and sexist trope. And yes, I hate that trope. and I see a few other people in this topic thread who stated that they hated that trope too, to varying degrees. So I know it's just not me who's annoyed by how they're treating female characters in comparison to the male characters.

    After all, if you study Eddie the character's motivation for doing things that stirs up drama, the motivation makes sense 100%.
    1) was against the flash and even created an anti-flash taskforce with help from the chef? Well, as a cop he naturally can't help but be distrustful of vigilantes....guys like him are supposed to uphold the law, not some weirdo in a red suit.
    2) But then all of a sudden he's warming up to the flash? Well, he briefly captured the man in the yellow suit and realized that there was two speedsters out there... and on top of it he also realized that there was other powerful weirdos out there that they might need help from the red speedster for after all. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.
    3) He was the only person besides Joe who weren't oblivious to what Barry Allen was feeling for Iris, but instead of freaking out about it he went directly to Iris. He asked Iris if there was any chance that the two of them might get together. Iris says that there's nothing there... he's doubtful but since Iris had been his GF for a while, he decides to trust Iris's words. And then all of a sudden, Iris turns around and starts flirting with Barry while Barry was supposed to be on a date with a different girl? Any freaking out he might do later would then be completely justified.

    Then there's Iris. She grew up in the same house as Barry Allen, and knows him better than the back of her own hand. Yet, she didn't know herself well enough to realize that her sisterly feelings for Barry Allen weren't so sisterly after all? After all, she had plenty of time to realize a lot of things growing up..... if you get my drift. For instance, accidentally walking in on Barry naked when the two of them are teenagers... and then realizing that she had some really inapporate feelings seeing her pseudo-brother naked and that maybe she doesn't really see him as her brother on some level?

    I think this storyline would had been pulled off better if they had simply gone with a bit of pop psychology instead of a love triangle. That is, Iris is so used to always having Barry Allen around in her life. But now they're adults and on some surface level Iris is worried that she'll lose Barry Allen as an constant presence in her life. So she freaks out when Barry Allen starts dating girls, etc.... because that might lead to Barry Allen moving away from the city and having a family that doesn't induce her in it. After all, It's not like they were a "real family" bound by blood when Joe West became Barry Allen's legal guardian.
    That kind of thing doesn't require a romantic connection between Iris and Barry for that kind of logic to work... And if Iris had any romantic feelings I would had preffered for her to be in denial of it a lot longer, even if Barry told her about his feelings. At least until Barry Allen does a time reset.

    I guess I just don't want another god-damned love triangle on a superhero show. CW overused the love triangles on most of their TV shows in the past years, even on Smallville. It's such a overused trope that I now HATE it. That's what it really boils down to for me. the slightest hint of an melodramatic love triangle sends me into a PSTD-filled, rage-inducing flashback to not only the worst bits of Smallville...but also other CW shows I watched in the past such as: Veronica Mars, What I like about you, Reba, The tomorrow people, The secret circle, and so on forth.
    THEY LITERALLY OVERUSED THAT TROPE ON EVERY SINGLE SHOW.

    CW writers, man. It's like they would be awesome writers if they just let go of the writing crutches they seem to have. Whenever they're unsure of how to write a scene, they seem so quick to throw in a love triangle for the heck of it.

  2. #47
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    Yes, there can be a reason to tolerate Eddie but not Iris. Although, that one reason indicates that we should really gang up on the writer instead of the characters themselves. After all, it's really the writer's fault and not the characters themselves.

    You see, I've noticed that when a writer wants to stir up drama JUST BECAUSE, they often use female characters more than male characters. And if they do use a male character, they often make sure to write in motivation and reasons beforehand that actually make sense. So the viewers will be more likely to tolerate and root for the male characters than they do for the female character. They never do this for female characters.

    example it's often a very common trope, although it's very old as time and kind of sexist, that a woman is just naturally irrational. That she doesn't even know where her feelings come from, etc. That she doesn't know what she wants at all until it's too late for her! And so on forth.
    The most worst modern example of this is Barbara from Gotham. She's all over the place, and there's literally no good reasons for anything she does. She's pretty much the archetype of the hysterical woman who doesn't even know what she wants out of life. And you know what? the majority of viewers here just find her annoying.... and I do too.

    That trope you mentioned, is merely a offshoot of that tired and sexist trope. And yes, I hate that trope. and I see a few other people in this topic thread who stated that they hated that trope too, to varying degrees. So I know it's just not me who's annoyed by how they're treating female characters in comparison to the male characters.

    After all, if you study Eddie the character's motivation for doing things that stirs up drama, the motivation makes sense 100%.
    1) was against the flash and even created an anti-flash taskforce with help from the chef? Well, as a cop he naturally can't help but be distrustful of vigilantes....guys like him are supposed to uphold the law, not some weirdo in a red suit.
    2) But then all of a sudden he's warming up to the flash? Well, he briefly captured the man in the yellow suit and realized that there was two speedsters out there... and on top of it he also realized that there was other powerful weirdos out there that they might need help from the red speedster for after all. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.
    3) He was the only person besides Joe who weren't oblivious to what Barry Allen was feeling for Iris, but instead of freaking out about it he went directly to Iris. He asked Iris if there was any chance that the two of them might get together. Iris says that there's nothing there... he's doubtful but since Iris had been his GF for a while, he decides to trust Iris's words. And then all of a sudden, Iris turns around and starts flirting with Barry while Barry was supposed to be on a date with a different girl? Any freaking out he might do later would then be completely justified.

    Then there's Iris. She grew up in the same house as Barry Allen, and knows him better than the back of her own hand. Yet, she didn't know herself well enough to realize that her sisterly feelings for Barry Allen weren't so sisterly after all? After all, she had plenty of time to realize a lot of things growing up..... if you get my drift. For instance, accidentally walking in on Barry naked when the two of them are teenagers... and then realizing that she had some really inapporate feelings seeing her pseudo-brother naked and that maybe she doesn't really see him as her brother on some level?

    I think this storyline would had been pulled off better if they had simply gone with a bit of pop psychology instead of a love triangle. That is, Iris is so used to always having Barry Allen around in her life. But now they're adults and on some surface level Iris is worried that she'll lose Barry Allen as an constant presence in her life. So she freaks out when Barry Allen starts dating girls, etc.... because that might lead to Barry Allen moving away from the city and having a family that doesn't induce her in it. After all, It's not like they were a "real family" bound by blood when Joe West became Barry Allen's legal guardian.
    That kind of thing doesn't require a romantic connection between Iris and Barry for that kind of logic to work... And if Iris had any romantic feelings I would had preffered for her to be in denial of it a lot longer, even if Barry told her about his feelings. At least until Barry Allen does a time reset.

    I guess I just don't want another god-damned love triangle on a superhero show. CW overused the love triangles on most of their TV shows in the past years, even on Smallville. It's such a overused trope that I now HATE it. That's what it really boils down to for me. the slightest hint of an melodramatic love triangle sends me into a PSTD-filled, rage-inducing flashback to not only the worst bits of Smallville...but also other CW shows I watched in the past such as: Veronica Mars, What I like about you, Reba, The tomorrow people, The secret circle, and so on forth.
    THEY LITERALLY OVERUSED THAT TROPE ON EVERY SINGLE SHOW.

    CW writers, man. It's like they would be awesome writers if they just let go of the writing crutches they seem to have. Whenever they're unsure of how to write a scene, they seem so quick to throw in a love triangle for the heck of it.
    No drama is just because. There's usually a plot related reason, and no, men are used to stir up drama too. Clark would randomly flip on Lex all the time on SV. Same as Jonathan, all for the sake of drama. Iris' motivation makes sense and there's nothing irrational about it. Shows do this with men too, where men have to take time to think about their feelings about the woman, in fact it was pretty common for a while. People are irrational. Ya know, maybe that's the real problem. It's not the characters who are being irrational. It's the people who assume they are being irrational just because they do things that they don't like, don't agree with, or don't understand. It's their irrational attitude towards characters. Barbara's actions on Gotham aren't irrational. Not completely intelligent, sure. But irrational? No. She's flawed. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say that I think Eddie's jump from hating the Flash to being okay with him was a little too fast. People hold a certain view of things for a while until that view is challenged. That situation you presented sounds like a really bad setup for a porno. That pop psychology thing you said just makes Iris seem pretty selfish and self involved. The time reset would just be so cheap. So, wait, you make all these grand statements about sexism and what it's really about is that you don't like love triangles? Come on, I'm sure you're better than that.

  3. #48
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    You say the drama usually happens because the plot dictates it, but many times I just don't see that. You see, I think it's simply bad writing when you have two characters being close friends one minute and then suddenly they just become each other's worst enemy in the next minute without any GOOD reasons... especially when they're back to being good friends in the next ep like nothing happened.

    Bad TV writer: "Well, I want to do a specific story for this ep, but in order to make the story make sense I have to make all the characters act out of character! They won't be like themselves at all for this episode.... but frankly, I don't care as long as the story get told!"

    You say that Barbara on Gotham isn't irrational... um, haven't you been reading everyone else's comments in the episode threads? There was even one fan who wondered if Barbara might be Bipolar! Because otherwise her actions made no sense. So yeah, if a lot of people think that she makes no sense at all.... then she doesn't.

    And.... you know what? I still can bring up how some tropes are sexist, AND STILL hate love triangles too.

    At this point I think you're just arguing with me just for the sake of arguing.... =\ I think I'm done arguing with you... because you just seem to be going in circles.

  4. #49
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    You say the drama usually happens because the plot dictates it, but many times I just don't see that. You see, I think it's simply bad writing when you have two characters being close friends one minute and then suddenly they just become each other's worst enemy in the next minute without any GOOD reasons... especially when they're back to being good friends in the next ep like nothing happened.

    Bad TV writer: "Well, I want to do a specific story for this ep, but in order to make the story make sense I have to make all the characters act out of character! They won't be like themselves at all for this episode.... but frankly, I don't care as long as the story get told!"

    You say that Barbara on Gotham isn't irrational... um, haven't you been reading everyone else's comments in the episode threads? There was even one fan who wondered if Barbara might be Bipolar! Because otherwise her actions made no sense. So yeah, if a lot of people think that she makes no sense at all.... then she doesn't.

    And.... you know what? I still can bring up how some tropes are sexist, AND STILL hate love triangles too.

    At this point I think you're just arguing with me just for the sake of arguing.... =\ I think I'm done arguing with you... because you just seem to be going in circles.
    That's exactly what I thought. You don't have any real good reason beyond what other people think and your disdain for love triangles. I don't care that a bunch of people that don't take the time to give thought to character's motivations think that she's irrational. Because she's not. Barbara's actions make perfect sense for someone that doesn't just assume that she's just being irrational. And to stay on topic, Iris hasn't acted out of character. I'm arguing because I believe in what I'm arguing for.

  5. #50
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    I do have my own opinions and excellent reasoning for why I think there's something off about how the writers write certain characters. I don't go by what other people think... but sure, think that way if you want to think that you're ALWAYS RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.

    The only reason why I pointed out what others said on this subject, is so that I could show you that it wasn't me who only thought this way. That there are dozens of other people out there who would most likely agree with me than they did with you.
    Now if it was just only one person who thought this way, then it'd be easy for you to dismiss this as just the useless opinion of ONE fan. but if more than a dozen fans notices that there's something weird going on with a certain character.... then chances are that there's actually something going on with that one character.

    That's just you competely refuse to admit it, because again, in your little world you're always right no matter what! *rolls eyes*

    And that, is why I refused to argue with you anymore.... because the fool who refuses to see what's right in front of his face isn't a person you can intelligently debate with. It's just pointless.

  6. #51
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    I do have my own opinions and excellent reasoning for why I think there's something off about how the writers write certain characters. I don't go by what other people think... but sure, think that way if you want to think that you're ALWAYS RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.

    The only reason why I pointed out what others said on this subject, is so that I could show you that it wasn't me who only thought this way. That there are dozens of other people out there who would most likely agree with me than they did with you.
    Now if it was just only one person who thought this way, then it'd be easy for you to dismiss this as just the useless opinion of ONE fan. but if more than a dozen fans notices that there's something weird going on with a certain character.... then chances are that there's actually something going on with that one character.

    That's just you competely refuse to admit it, because again, in your little world you're always right no matter what! *rolls eyes*

    And that, is why I refused to argue with you anymore.... because the fool who refuses to see what's right in front of his face isn't a person you can intelligently debate with. It's just pointless.
    A lot of people thinking something's right doesn't make right. I'm not right about everything, but I'm right when it comes to being against unjust hatred of a character. Meanwhile you hate on Lana because Clark is sad because of her. And say she broke poor wittle Jason's heart, because he hadn't done any freaking yet, which I swiftly debunked. Like I said: You don't have an argument.

  7. #52
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    Well, to bring up a point not touched upon much on this thread, I had a feeling from the preview last month that Wells used an after-image to explain being in two places at once (given the fluctuating motion between the two Wells). I do have to say that I enjoyed seeing in live action a trick that Barry Allen used to good effect a few times in the comics (usually involving a change of clothes, first to appear as a new villain called "The Dude" [really] fighting himself in The Flash v1 #231, and then to appear as both Barry Allen and the Flash at the same time in The Flash v1 #290 and #300).

    The Flash himself doesn't perform this stunt that often because it is very very hard to do. You have to change your clothes, move to a different spot, hold it for a fraction of a second (like a motion picture frame), then change clothes again and move back to the original spot you were at, and hold for a fraction of a second, then change clothes again and move back to the second spot you were at before (in almost the same position you were in, I should add) before the after-image fades away, and repeat and repeat and repeat for thousands if not millions of times, taking only a very very small fraction of a second between each pass. And I didn't even go into the complications of how Barry and the Flash are able to have a conversation...

    As a comic book reader, I loved it, and on the show, it was very cool to see, but as an explanation for what happened in Episode 9, it doesn't hold up. One reason is that no one would be able to make physical contact with Wells while he is zooming (heh) into position as the Reverse-Flash (in Justice League of America v1 #200, the Elongated Man tried to grab a Flash after-image and it was like "trying to grab a phantom"). Also, when the Flash arrived to take the fight with the Reverse Flash outside of S.T.A.R. Labs, that would have interrupted the after-image exchange and Wells would have just vanished at that point.

    When the PaleyFest preview showed a split-second scene of the Flash fighting himself, I believed that a time-travelling Wells would account for the two-places-at-once explanation. This trick couldn't be used in the DC Comics stories (at least Pre-Crisis) because there was a common immutable "law" used at the time that made the Flash or Superman or other time travellers that journeyed to a time period where they already exist, to become an intangible phantom that no one in that time period could see or hear.

    Next up, we need to see Barry vibrate through a solid object, just as we saw Thawne do for a brief and tragic moment...
    Last edited by Xum Yukinori; 03-24-2015 at 01:13 PM.

  8. #53
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    It's not unjust hatred of a character. I don't hate Lana Lang as a character. I hate what was done TO HER as a character. surely you see the big difference??

    I honestly think that Lana Lang deserved better treatment by the writers. But instead, she was always stuck as being the hero's love interest... and as an result got shafted in the romantic department, and they wrote her behavior as being somewhat ****** (if a real girl actually did that in real life).

    When I look at the list of the boyfriends and or romantic possibilities for her.... I realize that the writers intentionally choose the worst ****** possible boyfriends for her so that Clark would always look better in comparison. And to be honest, Clark was never right for Lana and vice versa.... everyone knows it.
    And then if that wasn't bad enough for poor Lana, the writers intentionally made her seem self-destructive when it came to romantic relationships... at least from a in-universe viewpoint.

    I mean, if you saw a girl in real life who had a string of endless bad boyfriends that was never right for her... you couldn't help but wonder if she was doing that on purpose or what. Especially if she's the type who goes to her friends and starts talking about how she's having second thoughts about this current relationship...which she ALWAYS says about every single boyfriend.

    Mostly, I blame bad writers for the way Lana Lang is, and I think she could had been so much better than that. That's not unjust hatred of a character, is it? The only reason why I griped about how she behaved around Clark and the effect it had on Clark, is because I hate HOW IT WAS WRITTEN. ESPECIALLY SINCE IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ADVANCE THEIR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, and turned them into ridiculous soap opera parodies of their previous characters.

    The writers wrote Lana Lang as if she was in a soap opera most of the time, which was annoying. When they didn't put her in a soap opera-like situation that was the only time when she actually came off as very human and relatable. You have no idea how much I wanted to see more of that Lana... and was often annoyed when they didn't show us more of that Lana and instead opted for showing us Soap Opera Lana most of the time.

    I actually wrote a few Lana-centric fanfics, even one where she broke the fouth wall to tell Jeph Loeb and all the other writers to stop straddling her with ****** boyfriends because she deserved better than this. But yeah, sure.... believe that I simply hate characters for no good reason at all!
    Last edited by Aurora Moon; 03-24-2015 at 01:13 PM.

  9. #54
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    It's not unjust hatred of a character. I don't hate Lana Lang as a character. I hate what was done TO HER as a character. surely you see the big difference??

    I honestly think that Lana Lang deserved better treatment by the writers. But instead, she was always stuck as being the hero's love interest... and as an result got shafted in the romantic department, and they wrote her behavior as being somewhat ****** (if a real girl actually did that in real life).

    When I look at the list of the boyfriends and or romantic possibilities for her.... I realize that the writers intentionally choose the worst ****** possible boyfriends for her so that Clark would always look better in comparison. And to be honest, Clark was never right for Lana and vice versa.... everyone knows it.
    And then if that wasn't bad enough for poor Lana, the writers intentionally made her seem self-destructive when it came to romantic relationships... at least from a in-universe viewpoint.

    I mean, if you saw a girl in real life who had a string of endless bad boyfriends that was never right for her... you couldn't help but wonder if she was doing that on purpose or what. Especially if she's the type who goes to her friends and starts talking about how she's having second thoughts about this current relationship...which she ALWAYS says about every single boyfriend.

    Mostly, I blame bad writers for the way Lana Lang is, and I think she could had been so much better than that. That's not unjust hatred of a character, is it? The only reason why I griped about how she behaved around Clark and the effect it had on Clark, is because I hate HOW IT WAS WRITTEN. ESPECIALLY SINCE IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ADVANCE THEIR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, and turned them into ridiculous soap opera parodies of their previous characters.

    The writers wrote Lana Lang as if she was in a soap opera most of the time, which was annoying. When they didn't put her in a soap opera-like situation that was the only time when she actually came off as very human and relatable. You have no idea how much I wanted to see more of that Lana... and was often annoyed when they didn't show us more of that Lana and instead opted for showing us Soap Opera Lana most of the time.

    I actually wrote a few Lana-centric fanfics, even one where she broke the fouth wall to tell Jeph Loeb and all the other writers to stop straddling her with ****** boyfriends because she deserved better than this. But yeah, sure.... believe that I simply hate characters for no good reason at all!
    It certainly seems that way. What was done TO HER isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Plenty of people have a string of troubled relationships. But that person is not to blame for them and shouldn't be. Every single guy she became interested in had a perfectly fine facade until things started to blow up in their face. And Lana had some fantastic stuff that didn't really assist her love interest role, but the show was always a soap opera. Which I don't have that big of a problem with, by the way. And Whitney wasn't that bad. And people say that they're having second thoughts about their relationships all the time. And to Clark and Lana being never being right for eachother... So? I'm fairly sure that they were never supposed to work out. And character wise it makes sense that her relationships wouldn't really be healthy. And no, in real life, Lana's behavior not be categorized as ****** at all. No more than any of the other characters. And that is an offensive term. I don't know why you're singling out Lana, when all the characters subjected to this and in some cases worse.

  10. #55
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    worst in my opinion.
    It was quite bad than the last one.

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