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One damn good reason why Wells CANNOT possibly be (just) RF

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  • One damn good reason why Wells CANNOT possibly be (just) RF

    (Totally different tangent to my Barry has got it wrong thread, so I'm making a new one for this).

    There's one damn good reason why Wells CANNOT possibly be "just" Reverse Flash. (And I hope the producers/writers actually sit down and consider all the ramifications of changed timeline stuff when they write their eps)

    In the episode "Power Outage" Barry lost his powers, and upon checking with his computer (Gideon, though it's strange having a male name and female voice), it was realised that the timeline had been changed and that all mention of The Flash, and Barry Allen, had disappeared from history.

    IF, Wells was indeed Reverse Flash, because his inspiration for going back no longer existed at that point, he should have ALSO quite literally popped out of the current timeline at the instant that Barry's powers disappeard, and it would have left Barry, Cisco and Caitlin to defeat Blackout by themselves. (Although Blackout would NOT have needed defeating at that point, because with Wells literally yanked back to his own time and the timeline changed back to normal, Blackout's powers (and those of all the other metahumans) should have disappeared as well.) (Although they would have all got them at later points due to accidents etc, but it would have been a staggered process rather than an all at once process as was the case with the reactor).

    I'll explain.

    Wells is a time traveller and knows the future, of that there is NO doubt. However, by his own words the SOLE reason for him going back in time is to seemingly (create) "help" (and do a thesis on) The Flash.

    It's like the chicken and the egg paradox, which came first The Flash or Wells' interference.

    In Wells' future The Flash was history, so maybe he sought to be the person who created him, nudge the process along (an ego thing perhaps).
    Imo, Barry would have STILL become a speedster regardless of Wells, as at some point a bolt of lightning would have STILL hit the rack of chemicals.
    This can be said with 100% CERTAINTY, because The Flash as Barry Allen existed BEFORE Wells even considered going back.

    Anyway, bearing the above in mind, when Barry lost his powers and The Flash disappeared from history, if Wells WAS RF, his motivation to go back in time to be an ego tripped hand in The Flash's creation SHOULD have disappeared as well. (Gideon confirmed it should have as there was no mention of The Flash when it searched. However since it's outlined that Barry and the others would have still got their powers but at a later date, it's possible that The Flash, relative to Gideon at that point, may have been called The Streak instead and his identity never known).

    Anyway, in the present timeline, when Barry lost those powers, Wells SHOULD have literally been thrown out of the current timeline and back to his own time with NO knowledge of the Flash/Barry Allen.

    In the timeline, ALL events from Wells' decision to go back, until the moment Barry lost his powers, would have been a "closed loop", relative to Wells (since it was Wells alone who was responsible for the timeline change)
    The events of Wells' interference would have STILL taken place, but in an offshoot of the timeline where Wells going back started a circle/loop and the circle/loop was completed the instant Barry lost his powers).
    The straight timeline without Wells' interference would have then overwritten itself as normal with Barry (and the other metahumans) gaining their powers at a future date.

    (To visualise what I mean, get a pen/pencil or w/e and draw a line on a piece of paper. At any point above it or below on that line, but yet still touching it, it is possible to draw a complete circle/loop.
    This is what happens when a timeline change is "rectified". The loop is still there on the original timeline, the changes STILL take place, but because the loop is now closed, the original timeline STILL carries on as if no change had ever happened in the first place)

    As for Wells, in his own present (the future) at the instant he thought of going back, he wouldn't think that anymore.

    So why wasn't he thrown back ?

    Well, one possible explanation is that Wells is NOT strictly RF, he's someone such as Rip Hunter or a linear man etc, who is NOT affected by any drastic changes to the timeline.

    The above explanation is clear to me. I hope it makes some sense to you.

  • #2
    The above explanation only works if you adhere to a very specific theory of how time works. The writers may be going with a different theory all together.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
      The above explanation only works if you adhere to a very specific theory of how time works. The writers may be going with a different theory all together.
      They could go with any particular laws they wanted (such as 2 people existing at the same time or w/e), but, because Wells ONLY went back because of The Flash, then the instant that that inspiration disappeared from the timeline, Wells involvement WOULD go with it as well unless he wasn't someone who isn't time affected.
      RF has always been human afaik, the Eobard incarnation didn't even have powers of his own, I can't see how any of the RF's WOULDN'T be time affected, so on the face of it, if Wells was RF I can't see any workable "laws" that would enable him to stay in the timeline in the past if The Flash suddenly ceased to exist.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by speople
        They could go with any particular laws they wanted (such as 2 people existing at the same time or w/e), but, because Wells ONLY went back because of The Flash, then the instant that that inspiration disappeared from the timeline, Wells involvement WOULD go with it as well unless he wasn't someone who isn't time affected.
        RF has always been human afaik, the Eobard incarnation didn't even have powers of his own, I can't see how any of the RF's WOULDN'T be time affected, so on the face of it, if Wells was RF I can't see any workable "laws" that would enable him to stay in the timeline in the past if The Flash suddenly ceased to exist.
        Again, that's only true if you adhere to a very specific theory of how time works. They could be going with an entirely different theory all together, one where Wells himself would be protected from any and all changes for which he was responsible. Remember, every time something major has happened, Wells had to go to his computer to check if something changed in the future. If what you're saying is true, he wouldn't have to check... he'd know, because he was there or had at least already checked once before.

        I think you're assuming that time travel works one way and the show is going with something else entirely.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
          Again, that's only true if you adhere to a very specific theory of how time works. They could be going with an entirely different theory all together, one where Wells himself would be protected from any and all changes for which he was responsible. Remember, every time something major has happened, Wells had to go to his computer to check if something changed in the future. If what you're saying is true, he wouldn't have to check... he'd know, because he was there or had at least already checked once before.

          I think you're assuming that time travel works one way and the show is going with something else entirely.
          He wasn't "directly" responsible for Barry losing his powers though, Blackout was. True, Wells was responsible for them both gaining them (in a sense), but in this particular instance Wells' involvement was "indirect" and so even if he was protected from his own changes he'd have therefore STILL "gone" "phased" "been flung back" or w/e.

          Still can't see a workable mechanism (if he was "just" RF") that would allow him to stay in the present if The Flash was erased from the timeline.

          Comment


          • #6
            You believe that the Flash existed before Wells ever travelled back in time.

            It might not be true, it might be timestream pointing back at itself.

            Let me explain it with another TV show, Babylon 5. If you haven't watched it but eventually planning to do, you should not read the following paragrahps, cause I'm going to spoiler the heaviest twist of that entire show but without it I can't explain my reasoning.

            You've been warned.

            [SPOILER]
            In Babylon 5 there was a wise man and warrior a thousand years ago by the name of Valen. He formed the social structure of one of the alien races (the Minbari). He helped them fight off an dark and ancient enemy and also made quite a few correct and weirdly precise predictions about the next thousand years.

            Fast forward 1,000 years. One of the relics left of Valen's time is the triluminary and it glows when it detects the soul of Valen in any Minbari.

            But then there's the war agains the Humans (which they started by the way, ignorant as they were) and the triluminary is used on one of them - and it glowed!!! How can a Human possibly have the soul of Valen, except for it to be the sign that the ancient enemy will return as Valen predicted a thousand years ago.

            As it turns out, that Human is Valen. Or he is going to be Valen. Or he is going to have been Valen. He travels back in time with all his knowledge of history and technology and he uses the triluminary to make himself be a Minbari.

            Now two questions arise:

            a) Where did the triluminary came from? Valen brought it with him into the past, then it aged for the 1,000 years only to be taken by the Human back in time, ... ad infinitum.

            b) Was there ever a "beginning" of this loop? Was there ever a timeline where there was no Valen (how did the Minbari defeat the ancient enemy then and how did their society look the first time around? And despite the then completely different timeline how did the Human-Minbari war end without the discovery of Valen's soul in a Human?
            [/SPOILER]

            As you can see, it's almost impossible to imagine a timeline without the stable loop.

            The same could be true for Flash and Wells. Wells has always helped the Flash and the Flash inspired Wells to help the Flash, ... ad infinitum.
            Last edited by DJ Doena; 12-18-2014, 11:55 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by speople
              He wasn't "directly" responsible for Barry losing his powers though, Blackout was. True, Wells was responsible for them both gaining them (in a sense), but in this particular instance Wells' involvement was "indirect" and so even if he was protected from his own changes he'd have therefore STILL "gone" "phased" "been flung back" or w/e.
              For a third time, you're assuming time travel works exactly the way you're saying it does. If you refuse to accept alternate theories for how time travel works, you're not going to like the show's explanation should they adhere to a different theory.
              Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 12-18-2014, 01:25 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                As an example of what I mean, there are theories of time travel that would allow for me to travel back in time and kill myself as an infant. Everything else would change, but I would still exist. As the time traveler, I would be the only one aware of and protected from the changes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DJ Doena
                  You believe that the Flash existed before Wells ever travelled back in time.

                  It might not be true, it might be timestream pointing back at itself.
                  Ah, but it IS true that The Flash existed before Wells ever went back, because we saw in one of the secret room clips that he had videoed Barry getting his powers. If The Flash hadn't ever existed, Wells wouldn't have known to film the event.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                    As an example of what I mean, there are theories of time travel that would allow for me to travel back in time and kill myself as an infant. Everything else would change, but I would still exist. As the time traveler, I would be the only one aware of and protected from the changes.
                    Um no, if you killed yourself as a child you'd be stuck in a timeloop in the past, and your adult self would also cease to exist in the present at the moment you killed yourself

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by speople
                      Um no, if you killed yourself as a child you'd be stuck in a timeloop in the past, and your adult self would also cease to exist in the present at the moment you killed yourself
                      See? That's your problem, right there. You can only imagine time travel based on the single theory of it you have in your head. But there are other possibilities and it's quite possible that the showrunners are using one of those alternate theories.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So i watched the animated Flashpoint movie again. The RF there was also aware of both timelines. The one where Barry's mom is alive and the one where she was dead. Where everyone else in the movie was not aware of the previous timeline.
                        Sounds like it could be the same type of situation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We're still having this conversation here?

                          Look, guys, I realize you're gonna be bored until the season finishes itself, but the show was pretty clear. Wells IS RF. Deal with it, live with it.

                          If it confuses you as to why, research other works of science fiction and time travel. Otherwise it's pretty clear how and why it happened.

                          These countless/pointless threads about you being in denial about Wells is getting annoying.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TyrantLord
                            We're still having this conversation here?

                            Look, guys, I realize you're gonna be bored until the season finishes itself, but the show was pretty clear. Wells IS RF. Deal with it, live with it.

                            If it confuses you as to why, research other works of science fiction and time travel. Otherwise it's pretty clear how and why it happened.

                            These countless/pointless threads about you being in denial about Wells is getting annoying.
                            Tsk tsk no need to get personal.

                            And if it SO clear as to how and why everything's happened, why not post it, giving clear, concise explanations with no plotholes, I'm sure the regulars on the forum would love to read it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by speople
                              Um no, if you killed yourself as a child you'd be stuck in a timeloop in the past, and your adult self would also cease to exist in the present at the moment you killed yourself
                              Not necessarily. If he went back in time to kill his younger self then it could split into a different timeline in which he never grew up and had a full life. He himself, as an adult in the past would be unaffected and would still exist. As he himself was the one that killed his younger self thus creating a paradox.

                              Backward Galaxy is right, there are many different theories on time travel. And since time travel hasn't been done yet (if its even remotely possible) there is no concrete evidence or even one certain way that time travel is done. All we have is theories to go upon, and there are many of them.

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