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  • #46
    Originally posted by shadow4486
    I'm no time travel expert, by any means. Yes, I've seen BTTF and love Doctor Who (how the hell could all 5 doctors be in the same place...crazy!!!) but I don't profess to have studied the nuances of Time Travel, even comic booky style time travel.

    With that being said, I'm no dummy. I've got some semblance of intelligence and I can follow this fairly well. I'm not saying it canon in my mind but I can see how this is possible.

    (That being said, you may have lost me with the "time loop" stuff but I'm not gonna pry cause it was a late night/early morning)
    I will try and explain the "loop" as easily as I can.

    Think of the original timeline as a straight road. Someone goes back in time and either knowingly or unknowingly diverts it. If someone else then goes back in time to the point at which it was diverted, and manages to stop the diversion, you'd be back on the original straight road again, but, you'd also have a "loop" on that road now, which lasts from the moment time was changed, to the moment it was changed back. The original timeline after this loop is then in a sense, paved over again and leads to the original destination.
    Essentially, each time the timeline is changed in a major way, if it is then "looped" so that the change is negated, the timeline after the loop will overwrite/repave itself in the original manner.

    In the timeline of the show, THE end destination of the road is Barry's death in COIE 8. Wells has already looped the timeline once following a change (Barry losing his powers) so that this occurs, and to this end I think Wells is therefore responsible for looping the timeline at an earlier point as well to ensure Barry's mom stayed dead.

    If Wells was just RF or Zolomon etc, he wouldn't be THAT particular about preserving timelines. It's for this reason that I don't think Wells is RF.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Fletching
      I like this theory. It also fits that in the fourteen years since Nora died and Henry went to jail, there have been NO other events involving a man in a yellow suit mentioned. I mean, don't you think Barry would have collected more "strange" occurrences of yellow blurs and murders in all his research into his mom's death? The only event was the two speedsters going back in time for that single night.
      You've hit the nail on the head

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by NightHawk777
        This has me thinking something different. What if the R/F thinks Nora's death is what causes BA to become Flash, and he goes back in time to prevent her death. And Barry has to go back and allow it because it would screw up the time line ? This time travel is headache inducing.
        One VERY big thing wrong with that hypothesis though.

        Wells WANTS Barry to become the Flash, in which case Wells ISN'T R/F.
        Don't forget that in "Power Outage", when Barry wasn't The Flash and it changed the entire timeline, Wells (plus to a lesser extent Caitlin, Cisco and Barry) deliberately tried to and succeeded in changing the timeline back again so that Barry was once again The Flash and history was corrected.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by speople
          One VERY big thing wrong with that hypothesis though.

          Wells WANTS Barry to become the Flash, in which case Wells ISN'T R/F.
          Don't forget that in "Power Outage", when Barry wasn't The Flash and it changed the entire timeline, Wells (plus to a lesser extent Caitlin, Cisco and Barry) deliberately tried to and succeeded in changing the timeline back again so that Barry was once again The Flash and history was corrected.
          That Wells wants Barry to become the Flash doesn't disqualify him from being RF. In fact, RF (Thawne) in the comics is the same. Yes, at first he thought of killing Barry before he was stuck by lightning. But then he realized that doing so would undo his own life as RF. He needs Barry to become the Flash to ensure his own emergence as RF. That's why he resorted to doing other things to make Barry's life miserable while still ensuring he doesn't undo his superhero transformation. On the show they have established Wells' particular fascination with some sort of Crisis in 2024 which involves Barry's disappearance. Perhaps they are tying RF's origin to whatever happens to Barry in this Crisis. Barry becomes the Flash, disappears in the Crisis and this causes something that leads to Wells becoming RF.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by speople
            I will try and explain the "loop" as easily as I can.

            Think of the original timeline as a straight road. Someone goes back in time and either knowingly or unknowingly diverts it. If someone else then goes back in time to the point at which it was diverted, and manages to stop the diversion, you'd be back on the original straight road again, but, you'd also have a "loop" on that road now, which lasts from the moment time was changed, to the moment it was changed back. The original timeline after this loop is then in a sense, paved over again and leads to the original destination.
            Essentially, each time the timeline is changed in a major way, if it is then "looped" so that the change is negated, the timeline after the loop will overwrite/repave itself in the original manner.

            In the timeline of the show, THE end destination of the road is Barry's death in COIE 8. Wells has already looped the timeline once following a change (Barry losing his powers) so that this occurs, and to this end I think Wells is therefore responsible for looping the timeline at an earlier point as well to ensure Barry's mom stayed dead.

            If Wells was just RF or Zolomon etc, he wouldn't be THAT particular about preserving timelines. It's for this reason that I don't think Wells is RF.
            First, thank you for humoring me on this "loop" subject. I enjoy expanding my knowledge.

            Second, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Let me try giving you an example of how it might look and you tell me if I'm close, right on, or way off.

            Ok, I'm thinking of BTTF in my example. When Biff goes back gives his younger self the almanac, that would be the diversion that creates this "new" timeline, right? Older Biff effectively changed his own timeline and thus changed the original timeline of Marty and his family.

            When Marty went back in time to make sure Younger Biff didn't get the almanac, that caused that "Biff is the ruler of Sunny Valley (or whatever it was called) timeline" to loop? It was gone from the timeline and the original time line was restored? Is that kinda like what you mean. No one but Marty would remember the "King Biff" timeline because that loop was closed.

            Am I even remotely close?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Exedore
              That Wells wants Barry to become the Flash doesn't disqualify him from being RF. In fact, RF (Thawne) in the comics is the same. Yes, at first he thought of killing Barry before he was stuck by lightning. But then he realized that doing so would undo his own life as RF. He needs Barry to become the Flash to ensure his own emergence as RF. That's why he resorted to doing other things to make Barry's life miserable while still ensuring he doesn't undo his superhero transformation. On the show they have established Wells' particular fascination with some sort of Crisis in 2024 which involves Barry's disappearance. Perhaps they are tying RF's origin to whatever happens to Barry in this Crisis. Barry becomes the Flash, disappears in the Crisis and this causes something that leads to Wells becoming RF.
              But if he wanted to make his life miserable, why help him at all with his power development? I can understand if Wells is somehow tied to the Crisis (which most of us can surmise he is because of how he freaked out when the timeline changed after Barry lost his powers) but the Barry from that future timeline was able to develop his powers without the advent of Wells so how is "helping Barry reach is top speed" factor into Wells/RF making him miserable?

              It's the duality of Wells that makes this so confusing. If he's this evil mastermind who's hell bent on destroying Barry, then why help him? Why fake an injury to help him? Like I said in another post, that is one hell of a LONG CON to pull the wool over so many people's eyes to make Barry feel bad. I was under the assumption that RF wanted to destroy the Flash outright. Make him suffer sure, but 30+ years of suffering (leading up to the Crisis) is a bit much for a psychopath. Thawne was not big on waiting. He was a speedster after all.

              But back to the duality. First Wells, in early episodes, is telling Barry to take it easy. "Caution restraint" and all that. But now he's trying to make him faster. Barry could have been killed by Blackout but Wells sends Girder after him to stop Blackout, and by design help Barry. Wells even placed himself between the bad guy and his younger collegues. He could have died right then and there if Barry hadn't got his confidence back. One could say that it was the threat to Wells that spurned Barry into action but that's not certain.

              It's all confusing and wonderful at the same time.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by shadow4486
                First, thank you for humoring me on this "loop" subject. I enjoy expanding my knowledge.

                Second, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Let me try giving you an example of how it might look and you tell me if I'm close, right on, or way off.

                Ok, I'm thinking of BTTF in my example. When Biff goes back gives his younger self the almanac, that would be the diversion that creates this "new" timeline, right? Older Biff effectively changed his own timeline and thus changed the original timeline of Marty and his family.

                When Marty went back in time to make sure Younger Biff didn't get the almanac, that caused that "Biff is the ruler of Sunny Valley (or whatever it was called) timeline" to loop? It was gone from the timeline and the original time line was restored? Is that kinda like what you mean. No one but Marty would remember the "King Biff" timeline because that loop was closed.

                Am I even remotely close?
                Well, it wasn't "gone", it was still there (as a timeline can't be erased, as such), but the parts involving the time travelling Biff and Marty were now just a small loop since Biff's "change" was negated. The original road (timeline) was still straight, but relative to M&B there was a loop on it.

                Comment


                • #53
                  well you are right on track but you forgetting something this all loop thing was planned by Dr. Wells cuz rember that DR. Wells before he started the particular he knew what was going to happen and that barry allen eas going to be the flash!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by speople
                    Well, it wasn't "gone", it was still there (as a timeline can't be erased, as such), but the parts involving the time travelling Biff and Marty were now just a small loop since Biff's "change" was negated. The original road (timeline) was still straight, but relative to M&B there was a loop on it.
                    Ok, ok, ok....so in that time loop that was closed, those events are still taking place over and over but the participants in that closed timeline don't realize it because they are just re-living the same scenario over and over? Hence calling it a "loop"?

                    The rest of time functions normally with no knowledge of the closed loop? Can anyone ever jump back into that closed loop and change any aspect of it, or is it untouched by time forever?

                    Man, I love this time travel stuff. It gets my brain working.

                    Thanks SPeople.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by shadow4486
                      Ok, ok, ok....so in that time loop that was closed, those events are still taking place over and over but the participants in that closed timeline don't realize it because they are just re-living the same scenario over and over? Hence calling it a "loop"?

                      The rest of time functions normally with no knowledge of the closed loop? Can anyone ever jump back into that closed loop and change any aspect of it, or is it untouched by time forever?

                      Man, I love this time travel stuff. It gets my brain working.

                      Thanks SPeople.
                      Re loop explanation, yes, those in it would just relive the same scenario over and over.
                      Re rest of time, yes, the rest of time functions normally with no knowledge of the loop, because the only people who know of it are the time travellers who went into it.

                      You've really got the hang of it now

                      As for the closed loop, someone else can ofc go in there and try to initiate the 1st change again, but ofc, they'd need to know exactly where to be at the exact moment in time. (In this case, the room with Barry's mother at (for example) 8.04 pm on Tue 13th June 2000).

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by speople
                        Re loop explanation, yes, those in it would just relive the same scenario over and over.
                        Re rest of time, yes, the rest of time functions normally with no knowledge of the loop, because the only people who know of it are the time travellers who went into it.

                        You've really got the hang of it now

                        As for the closed loop, someone else can ofc go in there and try to initiate the 1st change again, but ofc, they'd need to know exactly where to be at the exact moment in time. (In this case, the room with Barry's mother at (for example) 8.04 pm on Tue 13th June 2000).
                        Hey!!! Look at me learning stuff...and stuff.

                        Now, let's see if your theory pans out. What a blast would it be if it did!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          There is no exact way time travel works. Since it hasn't been done yet (if its even possible). There are many different theories about time travel and how it works. Plus in the comics The Flash has been known to handle time travel differently than what is being talked about in this thread. Its very possible that the show will handle it the same way the comics have.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Pulsayr
                            There is no exact way time travel works. Since it hasn't been done yet (if its even possible). There are many different theories about time travel and how it works. Plus in the comics The Flash has been known to handle time travel differently than what is being talked about in this thread. Its very possible that the show will handle it the same way the comics have.
                            Many moons ago I came up with the following theory that backward time travel isn't possible whatsoever.

                            Once it has passed, each moment in time is "fixed". What this means is that EVERYTHING in existence at each moment in time, occupies it's own particular co-ordinates in the space-time continuume (or timeline). (So far so good, I think that would get 100% agreement)

                            Therefore, in order to go back to a particular moment, and exist (instead of splat against a brick wall), one would need to "create" a co-ordinate (space for yourself) to squeeze into (See SUB RULE 1, below). You can't exist at a pre-existing co-ordinate, because something else already occupies it. (However even if you could occupy it instead, SUB RULE 2 (below) would apply).

                            MAIN RULE 1: To go back, no matter how small you are, you'd need to squeeze EVERYTHING else out of the way a tiny tiny little bit in order to accomodate you.

                            SUB RULE 1: If it's a new co-ordinate that you are creating, (in other words stretching space to make way for you as well), you'd need to ever so slightly push EVERYTHING else away. In effect, you'd need to ever so slightly displace the mass of the ENTIRE universe at that moment in time, to create that new co-ordinate for yourself. (Go to MAIN RULE 2).

                            SUB RULE 2: If you want to occupy an already existing co-ordinate, you'd need to push whatever else occupied it first, out of the way slightly to accomodate you instead. But, because everything is already fixed and presses against everything else, then as above, you'd need to displace the mass of the entire universe in order to move even 1 atom out of the way to make room for you. (Go to MAIN RULE 2)

                            MAIN RULE 2:There are billions upon billions of stars, planets, galaxies, gas clouds, black holes et al. It is simply NOT possible, however fast one runs/flies or w/e, for ANYONE to displace THAT much mass. Nor will it EVER be.

                            "Ah", I hear you collectively say, "but we are pushing stuff aside every second of our lives".
                            "Ah", I say, "good point, I'm glad you mentioned it, but, because the universe is actually still expanding every second and we are in the present as that is happening, everything is pushing everything else into a new (expanded) space, so it's not just a unilateral movement. Any moment that any co-ordinate becomes "fixed", (i.e in the past) one needs to go to the rules above because one is no longer in the present (the expansion).

                            (Collectively, as each moment goes by, the universe is displacing itself, to allow us (and anything else) to move around, but, unilaterally displacing the whole universe from a point in the future to fit ones-self in the past is a completely different (and utterly impossible) matter).

                            (Hope I haven't hurt your head too much with that Shadow 4486)

                            If backward travel were ever possible, however far off in the future, some loon somewhere would have stopped the death of Jesus, birth of Mohammed, rise (or fall) of (insert leader of choice, Hitler, Napoleon, ATG).

                            Backwards travel, not possible, never will be. Oops, sorry Barry.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by speople
                              (Hope I haven't hurt your head too much with that Shadow 4486)

                              If backward travel were ever possible, however far off in the future, some loon somewhere would have stopped the death of Jesus, birth of Mohammed, rise (or fall) of (insert leader of choice, Hitler, Napoleon, ATG).

                              Backwards travel, not possible, never will be. Oops, sorry Barry.
                              Not at all, Hawking Jr.. I'm just finding it amusing that you're carrying on a conversation with yourself via forum.

                              When you had the quote, ""Ah", I hear you collectively say, "but we are pushing stuff aside every second of our lives". " My first thought was, "No one would ever say that. " I, for one, was going back to the references to the various Rules and Sub Rules in the first part to even think about refuting your theory.

                              And, it being 8am, if I had not just eaten breakfast at work, I would be in a fetal position, with blood hemorrhaging from my nose (a la Kutcher in Butterfly Effect) trying to digest your words. So...I'm good. I'll be re-reading this post for several more hours but I'm good.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by shadow4486
                                But if he wanted to make his life miserable, why help him at all with his power development? I can understand if Wells is somehow tied to the Crisis (which most of us can surmise he is because of how he freaked out when the timeline changed after Barry lost his powers) but the Barry from that future timeline was able to develop his powers without the advent of Wells so how is "helping Barry reach is top speed" factor into Wells/RF making him miserable?

                                It's the duality of Wells that makes this so confusing. If he's this evil mastermind who's hell bent on destroying Barry, then why help him? Why fake an injury to help him? Like I said in another post, that is one hell of a LONG CON to pull the wool over so many people's eyes to make Barry feel bad. I was under the assumption that RF wanted to destroy the Flash outright. Make him suffer sure, but 30+ years of suffering (leading up to the Crisis) is a bit much for a psychopath. Thawne was not big on waiting. He was a speedster after all.

                                But back to the duality. First Wells, in early episodes, is telling Barry to take it easy. "Caution restraint" and all that. But now he's trying to make him faster. Barry could have been killed by Blackout but Wells sends Girder after him to stop Blackout, and by design help Barry. Wells even placed himself between the bad guy and his younger collegues. He could have died right then and there if Barry hadn't got his confidence back. One could say that it was the threat to Wells that spurned Barry into action but that's not certain.

                                It's all confusing and wonderful at the same time.
                                This says to me Wells isn't the R/F. I'm going to keep assuming we don't have enough info to declare he is the R/F. Or at least, the one that is trying to kill Barry. We saw him looking at a R/F costume, hidden in a wall. Why do we assume that this makes him R/F? Unless he's one of those guys with split personalities? Maybe he's like Jekyl and Hide, and when he puts on the yellow suit, it makes him evil? I'll go away now and take my headache with me

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