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Barry has got it ALL wrong, soooooo, humour me.

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  • #31
    If anyone is familiar with Fringe, now that was a timeline mess.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by speople
      Heroes are succeptible to emotions too. In the first Superman film you mentioned, Reeve immediately changed time. Barry doesn't know he can time travel yet, what's not to say that when he realises he can, that his first stop won't be the night his mom died.
      Thematically, that makes the hero look really really bad.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
        Thematically, that makes the hero look really really bad.
        Heroes WOULDN'T be heroes if they didn't have emotions. And sometimes our emotions can get the better of us. None of us are infallible 24 hours a day every day and super-heroes are no expection to that.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by speople
          As for Wells is a time traveller and the RF, if he WAS the actual RF, he wouldn't need the tachyon device to re-power Eobard's suit. Once switched on, it was obvious and visible that it was re-powering it. (My timelines also offer an explanation as to why that needed to be done).
          Unless they are also taking some elements from the Hunter Zolomon version of Reverse Flash. This version of RF doesn't actually have superspeed. Instead he has time manipulation powers that create the effect of superspeed. They could be taking that idea and combining it with the Eobard Thawne aspect of RF getting his abilities from his suit rather than his body. Though here it might be a lot of tech instead of just the suit itself. Hence he needs the tachyon device to power his suit.

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          • #35
            I really like this theory. Time travel definitely mucks things up, but I like the idea of Wells working to preserve the timeline a lot more than him being straight evil and just messing with Barry to mess with him.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by speople
              Heroes WOULDN'T be heroes if they didn't have emotions. And sometimes our emotions can get the better of us. None of us are infallible 24 hours a day every day and super-heroes are no expection to that.
              Your theory basically turns Barry into the villain. It turns him into a selfish and obsessed human being who is ready to risk the universe just so his mom can live. Barry isn't a dumb person. He knows full well the potential ramifications of time travel.

              This is a superhero story. Bad guy goes back in time to kill good guy's mom + Good guy goes back in time to stop him = superhero story.

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              • #37
                the more i read all the theories presented here. the more i think they're (the writers) may be trying to adapt the animated movie " Justice League Flashpoint Paradox" with as little of the JLA and villains as possible involved but keeping the main characters (Flash and Reverse Flash) involved.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                  Your theory basically turns Barry into the villain. It turns him into a selfish and obsessed human being who is ready to risk the universe just so his mom can live. Barry isn't a dumb person. He knows full well the potential ramifications of time travel.

                  This is a superhero story. Bad guy goes back in time to kill good guy's mom + Good guy goes back in time to stop him = superhero story.
                  Barry wouldn't necessarily always know the ramifications of his actions.
                  There are small blemishes which can be made in a timeline by going back and doing "anything", (even speaking to anyone or buying an ice-cream would affect the timeline in some way), but the timeline would still remain "on course" because the blemishes are just minor events. A major change however, would alter the timeline completely and set it on a different course.
                  How is Barry to know in advance then what course any of his actions have ? Better in that case for Barry to NEVER time travel at all so that all actions and potential courses are avoided.

                  This is why time travel can often get VERY messy and convoluted.

                  I (and others it seems judging by the responses) kinda like how I've explained the stuff we've seen etc so far and will see in the future, with the timelines I laid out.

                  Start of (original) timeline 1: Straight road. Barry's mom dead. (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure)

                  End of (original) timeline 1: Straight road. Barry's mom dead. (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure)

                  Start of (changed by Barry) timeline 2: Straight road diverted. Barry's mom alive. (Crisis on Infinite Earths is now a defeat)

                  End of (changed by Wells) timeline 2: Barry's pothole (diversion) is made into a roundabout with just 1 exit leading back to timeline 1 at the point of its change. Barry's mom dead. (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure).

                  (Timeline 2 is now just a loop with one exit instead of a straight road, that can NOT be changed again by either Barry or Wells).

                  Start of (tv show) timeline 3: Straight road again. Barry's mom dead, (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure) Barry (mistakenly) blames RF (Wells). Wells consigned to stay in the present and wach over Barry until (at least) the day Barry decides to go back to the night his mom died.

                  Now including the power outage episode:

                  End of (changed by Blackout) timeline 3: Barry loses powers (Crisis on Infinite Earths is a defeat)

                  Start of (changed by Blackout) timeline 4: Barry has no powers (Crisis on Infinite Earths is a defeat)

                  End of (changed by Wells, Cisco, Caitlin, Barry) Barry has his powers (Crisis on Infinte Earths victory secure).

                  (Timeline 4, like timeline 2, is now a loop in the original road (timeline 1) that can't be changed again by either Blackout, Barry, Cisco, Caitlin or Wells)

                  Start of (current) timeline 5: Barry has his powers (Crisis victory secure).
                  End of (current) timeline 5: Barry has his powers (Crisis victory secure)

                  Whenever a change is made that removes the Crisis victory, (a change that Wells automatically becomes aware of) as long as that change is then made into a loop by interference from someone else, a Crisis victory (the end result of timeline 1) is once again achieved.

                  Wells' PRIMARY concern, is ensuring a Crisis victory whatever it takes. In that respect, he's hardly (simply) a villain or (simply) Reverse Flash.
                  Last edited by speople; 12-11-2014, 11:18 PM.

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                  • #39
                    I'm skipping over posts but my "theory" on it is basically taking how things happened with Barry's story in the comics pre-Crisis and after he came back.

                    Prime Timeline: Barry's mother isn't murdered, still becomes the Flash through the same circumstances except he's not infused with the Speed Force immediately or have such great access to it so soon, has a generally happy trauma free life, gets involved with Iris early on and things happen as they do. No Caitlin, no Cisco, no Wells, Barry's progress is much slower. Zoom/Whatever you want to call him goes back and kills Barry's mother and you can pretty much gleam most of what happened in this timeline from the comics.

                    Now, either you could have...

                    Time Split A: Nora is murdered, Henry goes to prison, young Barry was late getting home and much of the rebooted Barry Allen story happens, everything happens as it's still destined to, Barry gets his powers again with out the particle accelerator "accident" and again no STAR Labs team. Everything happens though as it still should, including Iris and Barry getting together and so on, the Crisis happens and whatever. Eventually Barry chases Professor Zoom who perhaps has decided that more needs to be done to Barry. Barry discovers it was Professor Zoom who murdered his mom they fight around Nora but this time it happened later so Barry is , hell Flash Point could've come from this instance and we'll never see it. Things are changed again.

                    Time Split B: The new timeline that we're currently watching. Barry is home this time with Nora's murder happening at night things happen similarly to TSA but Future Barry shows up and fights with PZ but Barry realizing that due to Professor Zoom's previous time traveling shenanigans Barry can't save his mother and instead spares his younger self from witnessing Nora's murder. Professor Zoom decides he's going to need to do more to make Barry "better", perhaps with some help, goes back but doing so gets stuck in the past as his suit loses power. Establishes himself as Harrison Wells and uses his knowledge of the future. Wells main goal is to make TSB Barry all that he can been and sooner for his own insane interest in making the Flash the best hero he can be along with some other goal that we don't know about yet. I should probably include Eddie in TSA though that seems like something Wells could've put into motion as well, I think Wells has also learned this time from first hand observation is that Barry was always going to be a hero without the loss of those close to him and pushing himself and it could've been channeled differently or something.

                    Always possible that RF/PZ went back further and screwed with things even more than we already know. They've left themselves a big out for if they want to change the show up or have a need to tone Barry's powers down eventually. I do think Barry would've been the Flash regardless of his mother dying, just like they've been hammering home with the "lightning chose you Barry" thing, it was his destiny to be the Flash. Nora was a casualty of Professor Zoom wanting to ruin Barry's life.

                    It's late, I probably should've waited until I slept to write this and of course Time Split A could be what we're watching now. I'm kinda sorta mixing Zoom/Professor Zoom on purpose because I do think they're going to do the same for the most part.
                    Last edited by PHOENIXZERO; 12-12-2014, 02:56 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                      Your theory basically turns Barry into the villain. It turns him into a selfish and obsessed human being who is ready to risk the universe just so his mom can live. Barry isn't a dumb person. He knows full well the potential ramifications of time travel. This is a superhero story. Bad guy goes back in time to kill good guy's mom + Good guy goes back in time to stop him = superhero story.
                      You're assuming a lot from a guy who needs to constantly ask how to defeat villains. I'm sure he's never even thought about the ramifications of time travel because, as far as he's concerned, it doesn't exist. We don't even know if Back To The Future movies are in this universe.

                      You know, like Zombie movies aren't in The Walking Dead universe, hence why they never call them Zombies?

                      If you ask me, his mom is dead, his father is in prison, yeah, I'd think he go back in time to get those two people back in his life. Not that far-fetched IMO.

                      And as for the "this is a superhero story" bit, isn't that what so many fanboys and girls were lamenting about DC comics heroes that they loved about Marvel heroes: Their realness. Their reliability. So many times I've heard "Peter Parker is real, he still deals with real world issues, like paying rent and school and stuff.". It's the HUMAN that people are attracted. They want to see someone on that screen who is real, and who thinks like they would think.

                      So if someone were to say, here's a time machine and you can go back and change any traumatic experience in your past, a regular hero guy would be like, "Nah, bro. I'm good." You honestly think Batman doesn't want his parents back? You honestly think that Superman would love to know his parents (not as disembodied voices in this FOS)? No body would WANT that. They might see it as the catalyst for why they are doing what they are doing but not something that COMPLETELY DEFINES them. Barry didn't want to help people because his mother died. And he sure, in the regular timelines, didn't become The Flash because his mom died. As witnessed in the first Arrow episodes in Season 2, he was still looking for his mother's killer without powers.

                      I would rather my hero be vulnerable like that than not.
                      Last edited by shadow4486; 12-12-2014, 09:21 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by speople
                        Barry wouldn't necessarily always know the ramifications of his actions.
                        There are small blemishes which can be made in a timeline by going back and doing "anything", (even speaking to anyone or buying an ice-cream would affect the timeline in some way), but the timeline would still remain "on course" because the blemishes are just minor events. A major change however, would alter the timeline completely and set it on a different course.
                        How is Barry to know in advance then what course any of his actions have ? Better in that case for Barry to NEVER time travel at all so that all actions and potential courses are avoided.

                        This is why time travel can often get VERY messy and convoluted.

                        I (and others it seems judging by the responses) kinda like how I've explained the stuff we've seen etc so far and will see in the future, with the timelines I laid out.

                        Start of (original) timeline 1: Straight road. Barry's mom dead. (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure)

                        End of (original) timeline 1: Straight road. Barry's mom dead. (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure)

                        Start of (changed by Barry) timeline 2: Straight road diverted. Barry's mom alive. (Crisis on Infinite Earths is now a defeat)

                        End of (changed by Wells) timeline 2: Barry's pothole (diversion) is made into a roundabout with just 1 exit leading back to timeline 1 at the point of its change. Barry's mom dead. (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure).

                        (Timeline 2 is now just a loop with one exit instead of a straight road, that can NOT be changed again by either Barry or Wells).

                        Start of (tv show) timeline 3: Straight road again. Barry's mom dead, (Crisis on Infinite Earths victory secure) Barry (mistakenly) blames RF (Wells). Wells consigned to stay in the present and wach over Barry until (at least) the day Barry decides to go back to the night his mom died.

                        Now including the power outage episode:

                        End of (changed by Blackout) timeline 3: Barry loses powers (Crisis on Infinite Earths is a defeat)

                        Start of (changed by Blackout) timeline 4: Barry has no powers (Crisis on Infinite Earths is a defeat)

                        End of (changed by Wells, Cisco, Caitlin, Barry) Barry has his powers (Crisis on Infinte Earths victory secure).

                        (Timeline 4, like timeline 2, is now a loop in the original road (timeline 1) that can't be changed again by either Blackout, Barry, Cisco, Caitlin or Wells)

                        Start of (current) timeline 5: Barry has his powers (Crisis victory secure).
                        End of (current) timeline 5: Barry has his powers (Crisis victory secure)

                        Whenever a change is made that removes the Crisis victory, (a change that Wells automatically becomes aware of) as long as that change is then made into a loop by interference from someone else, a Crisis victory (the end result of timeline 1) is once again achieved.

                        Wells' PRIMARY concern, is ensuring a Crisis victory whatever it takes. In that respect, he's hardly (simply) a villain or (simply) Reverse Flash.
                        I'm no time travel expert, by any means. Yes, I've seen BTTF and love Doctor Who (how the hell could all 5 doctors be in the same place...crazy!!!) but I don't profess to have studied the nuances of Time Travel, even comic booky style time travel.

                        With that being said, I'm no dummy. I've got some semblance of intelligence and I can follow this fairly well. I'm not saying it canon in my mind but I can see how this is possible.

                        (That being said, you may have lost me with the "time loop" stuff but I'm not gonna pry cause it was a late night/early morning)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I like this theory. It also fits that in the fourteen years since Nora died and Henry went to jail, there have been NO other events involving a man in a yellow suit mentioned. I mean, don't you think Barry would have collected more "strange" occurrences of yellow blurs and murders in all his research into his mom's death? The only event was the two speedsters going back in time for that single night.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                            In this instance, the only way I see Barry traveling backwards in time is if he comes to the realization that someone else did it first, to mess with him. I can see him traveling back in time to stop RF from traveling back in time and killing Nora. I can't see him going first.
                            This has me thinking something different. What if the R/F thinks Nora's death is what causes BA to become Flash, and he goes back in time to prevent her death. And Barry has to go back and allow it because it would screw up the time line ? This time travel is headache inducing.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by NightHawk777
                              This has me thinking something different. What if the R/F thinks Nora's death is what causes BA to become Flash, and he goes back in time to prevent her death. And Barry has to go back and allow it because it would screw up the time line ? This time travel is headache inducing.
                              Yes, Barry allowing, and even killing his own mother, to preserve the timeline, would be quite a ground shaker, wouldn't it??

                              And what if "Destined to lose to me" is RF's way of saying, "I am you and in your darkest moment, you become me" like an Anakin/Darth Vader sort of thing.

                              And his mother being "destined to die" is how they are both created.

                              Cray--Cray!!!!!! (This is just a theory and not supported, nor connected to, SPeople's original Time Travel theory in any way.)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                In the original The Flash comics, Barry's mother wasn't dead. She was alive and watched as Barry grew up and became The Flash. It was only until The Flash: Rebirth comic that Reverse Flash went back in time and killed his mother, changing his life. Also, in the Flashpoint comic, Barry wen't back in time to save his mother, thus screwing up the timeline and setting in motion the events leading up to the New 52 comics.

                                So why am I mentioning this? Well it's important. Nora's death isn't what makes him The Flash, first of all. And him actually going back to save is mother shows how deeply he loved his mother and wanted her back. You're talking about a superhero that as a child grew up with his mother killed and his father imprisoned. That would be enough to make any hero want to go back and change things. Also, Barry isn't as knowledgeable with Time Travel as Eobard Thawne is. He didn't know him going back in time to save his mother's death would cause a whole heap of chaos.

                                If they are sticking close to the comics, all of these things will be implemented in some way more than likely.

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