Barry has got it ALL wrong, soooooo, humour me.

[speople]

Barry has got it ALL wrong !! And the lead up to what's eventually coming is mainly hidden in a few lines and a hint from the producers.

Firstly: The producers have gone on record more than once to say that Harrison Wells is honest and hasn't told any lies.

Secondly: Harrison told Joe that Nora's murder was nothing to do with him or his work.

Thirdly: The man in the yellow suit (I'm not calling him Reverse Flash for obvious reasons just yet) told Barry that it was his mother's destiny to die that night.

Fourthly: It's puzzled people why Reverse Flash killed Nora with a knife.

ALL along, Barry has believed that Nora was killed by Reverse Flash, and it is obvious that at a later time he has gone back in time to try and prevent her murder at his hands.
However, Barry is TOTALLY WRONG !!!

Because you see, the man in the yellow suit didn't murder Nora, the man in the yellow suit actually went back in time to make sure that Barry didn't save her. Because the man in the yellow suit wants to keep the timeline correct. (Sound familiar?)

Wells is a time traveller of sorts, possibly Rip Hunter, who, (similar to the H G Wells novel) uses a time machine, but who changes his name constantly so that no one can go back in time and murder him as a child etc.
He's also in possession of a yellow suit, and a device that may be able to allow its wearer to travel at enough super speed to possibly time travel without the aid of a time machine.
This is WHY it was SO specific in ep 9 that the device was TACHYON related. At the end of ep 9, we then saw Wells charging the suit with the device.

The man in the yellow suit who Barry saw all those years ago on the night his mother died, that's Wells, who using the tachyon device has gone back in time to prevent Barry from stopping his mother's death when Barry announces to his team or w/e that that's what he's going to do.

IF, what the producers are saying is correct (Wells being honest), this also fits with what Wells has said, that neither he or his work had anything to do with Nora's murder. And also fits with the puzzle of people wondering why RF used a knife.
RF DIDN'T use a knife, she was killed by someone other than RF (so it could be Barry's dad who is really guilty after all).
This also fits in with what the man in the yellow suit said to Barry, "it was your mother's destiny to die that night" (to keep the timeline correct).

I've not got the ep to hand, but I can't actually recall the man (or men) in the yellow suit in Tuesday's ep actually fessing up and confessing to the murder of Nora Allen at any point.

The above, is I believe, correct, and not just speculation, as it EXACTLY fits with the dialogue, plus the motives that Wells has used in previous eps, fits with the obtaining of the device (I think Wells kept the real one all along and used a fake as bait), fits with the producer's words that Wells is honest and also, crucially, fits in with the show's MO of keeping to the comics' codenames and characters.
(Don't forget, in the comics, there's never been a RF called Harrison Wells, even though there have been a few RF's, any of whom the producers could have chosen to put in the show).

(You can thank me with cookies or w/e when all this pans out btw)

Speculating now, I think there are possibly 2 men in yellow suits, one bad one the REAL Reverse Flash (the one who was wanting to steal the device) and one "good" one, Wells (Rip Hunter), who tries to keep Barry on track as a hero and at the same time keep the relavant Crisis timeline intact.

And if you think about it, what possible reason could the real RF have of wanting to write a thesis on Barry ? There isn't a reason. Plus a villain wouldn't be bothered if he/she kept a timeline correct or not.

The REAL RF is I believe a future relative of Eddie Thawne, (Eobard, keeping to the show's MO) which is why he stopped to get a damn good look at him instead of kill him.

[Lipzo]

Your basic premise for this is flawed though, you are taking the word of the writers. We were told that Wells was a completely original character yet has has a Flash ring and a Reverse Flash suit.
Writers lie about things in order to keep people guessing and generate discussion which in turns creates a buzz about what they have created.

[speople]

Your basic premise for this is flawed though, you are taking the word of the writers. We were told that Wells was a completely original character yet has has a Flash ring and a Reverse Flash suit.
Writers lie about things in order to keep people guessing and generate discussion which in turns creates a buzz about what they have created.

No, re the dailogue, I'm taking the word of Harrison Wells. (The fact the writers have said he's not told any lies is immaterial, but just backs it up). The above (Harrison going back in time dressed in a yellow suit to prevent Barry stopping Nora's murder) STILL holds true based on what we've seen and heard in the show.

No viewers seen RF murder Nora ? Thought so. Not even Barry did (and he was there, in duplicate).
(Young Barry, and older Barry, blame the man in the yellow suit JUST because the man in the yellow suit happened to be there at around the time of her death. In REAL terms, neither of the 2 Barry's hs got ANY proof that "A" man in a yellow suit and traveling at super speed killed his mom.

[Lipzo]

No, re the dailogue, I'm taking the word of Harrison Wells. (The fact the writers have said he's not told any lies is immaterial, but just backs it up). The above (Harrison going back in time dressed in a yellow suit to prevent Barry stopping Nora's murder) STILL holds true based on what we've seen and heard in the show.

No viewers seen RF murder Nora ? Thought so. Not even Barry did (and he was there, in duplicate).
(Young Barry, and older Barry, blame the man in the yellow suit JUST because the man in the yellow suit happened to be there at around the time of her death. In REAL terms, neither of the 2 Barry's hs got ANY proof that "A" man in a yellow suit and traveling at super speed killed his mom.

Alright fine then lets go with the dialogue, look at the latest episode of Arrow and it's clear that what is said in show can't always be trusted.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, I just don't agree with your theory and how the writers have been on Arrow I think it's reasonable to presume they are going to be similar as everyone writes things a certain way.

Also Flash is supposed to be staying very true to the comics (unlike Arrow) in which RF was the one that killed Nora so I just struggle to agree with you on it.

[Backward Galaxy]

So... if I'm getting this theory correctly... there would be two timelines...

1: In the original timeline, Nora is murdered. We don't know the identity of the murderer. Later in life, Barry becomes Flash and learns how to travel back in time. He decides to use his powers to save his mother. Time traveling Wells realizes that this would mean Flash never exists, so he steals Reverse-Flash's suit (because it can be infused with speed force to make a speedster out of whoever wears it), and goes back in time to stop Barry from saving his mother.

2: Now, we have a new timeline, in which Barry thinks that a speedster killed his mother. What he really saw was himself trying to save Nora and Wells in RF's suit trying to stop older Barry. Barry still becomes Flash, but in an altered timeline, Wells cannot guarantee that Barry's life takes the exact same course as it did before, so he takes it upon himself to guarantee Barry gets powers by creating the particle accelerator.

I see your theory. I think it makes sense, but I also think it's a little more complicated than I imagine this show is trying to be. I also believe that they are trying to stay true to the comics, like the above poster stated. I imagine the simpler explanation is just that Wells is RF.

But, and assuming I interpreted your thoughts accurately, kudos to the idea. I actually picture your theory as one of those strange Spidey-3 esque retcons, where they can tell their original story first, only to make it even more convoluted in later stories by telling us "you think you know what happened, but you really don't". Sort of a have your cake and eat it too type deal.

[Sozzeled]

It definitely makes sense. And I do believe at some point (maybe the season finale) Barry will travel back in time to save his mom and Harrison Wells will use the suit to make sure that does not happen.
I think the knife had to be used in order to frame Barry's dad. Hard to frame someone when someone dies of a broken neck at super speeds.

[spotteddog]

I suppose it is inevitable that this show becomes more involved in time travel. Damn - time travel is so messy. I hope the writers take the time to add some exposition about "their" rules of time travel, like if a person can co-exist with another version of themselves at a previous time.

Also - and I know I have said this in other threads - I fully expect to see John Wesley Shipp be much more involved in the second half of this season, and I expect his character Henry to somehow be some sort of speedster.

[Sozzeled]

Does it not seem like though, that the Wells character will need to stay on Barry's good side for seasons to come? Seems like it goes with the team chemistry to keep it that way. If Wells is the RF then Barry really can not find out for a while.

[shadow4486]

Oh, Speople, you are becoming one of my favorites on this forum.

I like your theory. It would explain why Nora was sitting surrounded by the "speed Lightning" rather than being killed outright. I mean, really...If the RF had superspeed and wanted to kill Nora, he could have done it in an instant without anyone even knowing. But we know now that there were two speedsters there that night. Could have been Older Barry and RF...could have been Two RF's. Who's to say at this point.

What if Barry's dad actually did kill Nora? What if he was planning to kill her all along but the whole "Speedsters try to change history" thing got in the way. The speedsters take their fight elsewhere but Henry still kills Nora, taking the ruckus as a way to get it finally done. Of course he gets caught anyway cause he didn't think things through. I know that's far-fetched but I still think Henry plays some part in this. I'm not convinced they have him as a rotting in jail dad and that's all.

Either way, I don't think Wells is acting against Barry's self interests, but I'm puzzled as to how the Crisis 10 years down the road is going to fit into this. Wells needs Barry to be The Flash to save the world, right? Then how could he be the "I want to destroy your life" RF and be the "We need you to save the world" RF/Wells. Those sentiments don't seem to jive with me. If you want him dead and humiliated, then holding him back so he cannot stop the Crisis would be a good way to do it, not working with him to increase his speed.

And if Wells is an RF/Speedster of somekind, then he wouldn't need Barry to go back in time, presumably because he still has some semblece of his power left, due to the quick healing in the end stinger. (I went back and noticed the healing, it was subtle but there. I wouldn't have caught it if someone on here didn't say something about it).

Ooo, do you think that the tachyon device is helping Wells get his speedster power back and that's why he is healing now, or has he had the healing power all along, hence why he can walk.

But that begs another question: If he could heal all along, then wouldn't he have his speed as well? Speed enough to go back into the future? Healing fast cannot be left behind if the rest of the power is taken, we learned that from the "Blackout" episode. Barry lost everything. I can't explain that one.

Enough rambling...

[speople]

So... if I'm getting this theory correctly... there would be two timelines...

1: In the original timeline, Nora is murdered. We don't know the identity of the murderer. Later in life, Barry becomes The Flash without the acellerator (just the lightning bolt and the chemicals as per the original silver age issue) and eventually he learns how to travel back in time. He decides to use his powers to save his mother. Time traveling Wells realizes that this would mean the Crisis timeline will cease to exist. And the Flash never exists, so he steals Reverse-Flash's suit (because it can be infused with speed force to make a speedster out of whoever wears it), and goes back in time to stop Barry from saving his mother.

2: Now, we have a new timeline, in which Barry thinks that a speedster killed his mother. What he really saw was himself trying to save Nora and Wells in RF's suit trying to stop older Barry. Barry still becomes Flash, but in an altered timeline, Wells cannot guarantee that Barry's life takes the exact same course as it did before, so he takes it upon himself to guarantee Barry gets powers by creating the particle accelerator.

I see your theory. I think it makes sense, but I also think it's a little more complicated than I imagine this show is trying to be. I also believe that they are trying to stay true to the comics, like the above poster stated. I imagine the simpler explanation is just that Wells is RF.

But, and assuming I interpreted your thoughts accurately, kudos to the idea. I actually picture your theory as one of those strange Spidey-3 esque retcons, where they can tell their original story first, only to make it even more convoluted in later stories by telling us "you think you know what happened, but you really don't". Sort of a have your cake and eat it too type deal.

You've almost got it, but there are in fact 3 timelines.

Timeline 1: Original timeline. There could have been an intruder (burglar) in the house armed with a knife. Barry's mom died in either self defence or cold blood. Barry saw nothing, heard nothing. Later in life he becomes The Flash via the silver age method without the acellerator, discovers he can time travel and eventually goes back to try and stop his mother's death. He succeeds, but because the death of Nora Allen was a MAJOR turning point in the timeline, Barry's actions instantly end timeline 1 and create timeline 2.

Timeline 2: In the ep "Blackout" it was shown that Wells' character remains unaffected by even major changes to timelines, which is why he still knew about the Crisis timeline even though The Flash had ceased to exist.
So, Wells becomes aware Barry has changed the course of history and created a 2nd timeline by saving his mom. He knows he can't go back and stop Barry without super speed so he removes Eobard Thawne's RF suit from a point in the timeline, dons it himself and enters the fray to stop Barry saving his mom. His own entrance ends timeline 2 and creates timeline 3.

Timeline 3: The battle between The Flashes now alerts a young Barry who goes into the room and sees red and yellow lightning. To remove his younger self from danger, older Barry leaves his mom and takes his younger self onto the street. When young Barry returns, his mom is dead and Barry thus blames the yellow blur. (The actual killer is immaterial).

A "closed timeloop" has now been created around Nora so that regardless of Barry's actions, his mom always dies. Further timelines ARE possible if yet another traveller (Jay Garrick for example) enters the battle as well, BUT, crucially, Barry believes that despite his own actions and powers, Nora will ALWAYS die, so he just blames the RF for her murder and considers the case "closed".

However, Wells' character is now a major part of the existing 3rd timeline, therefore at least until the day where Barry goes back to try and save his mom, Wells is effectively "stuck" in Barry's present and has to keep an eye on him (mentor him) so that he can go back in time himself at the same time that Barry does, so that the events of the 2nd timeline occur and the outcome of the original timeline (Nora's murder/manslaughter) takes place.
(After that date in the 3rd (current) timeline, he is effectively "free" to resume doing his own thing again).

To this end, Wells stays in young Barry's present, in time creating the acellerator and explosion that replaces (in parts) the "accidents" of many of the silver/bronze age metahumans, including The Flash. And upon Barry becoming The Flash, Wells immediately brings him to Star Labs where he can be monitored and mentored.

We now have a VERY viable explanation as to how Wells was speaking the truth when he said neither he or his work was responsible for Nora's death. An explanation for the comics (and the show) as to why Barry believes RF killed his mom. A reason for why Barry has his "mentoring" team around him when he never did so previously (prior to Crisis anyway at least). An explanation for why Wells is in possession of Eobard's suit. A reason why the man in the yellow suit told Barry it was hos mother's destiny to die that night. Plus an explanation as to why he knows the future, is unaffected by major timeline changes, but yet is inexplicably stuck in the present.

It might be the way events pan out, it might not, regardless, imo, it's a damn good explanation to explain EVERYTHING that we have seen so far and yet give plenty of omfg moments to surprise the viewer ahead.

[speople]

@ Shadow 4486. Quoting one of my all time favourite quotes from the Dungeons and Dragons tv series (the one where Eric is given the powers of Dungeon Master for a day).

"Once touched by power, one is never again quite the same".

The explosion had the opposite effect on anything that was already super-powered, rather than giving powers it took them away (to create a balance). However, as the quote says, last vestiges remained in both Wells and the suit. Similar to how Eric still had some slight powers of the Dungeon Master even after Dungeon Master had removed them.

The RF suit and Wells don't have the power to time travel though, which is why the suit needed recharging with the tachyon device. So that the suit, and Wells, are ready for when Barry eventually goes back to try and save his mom.

Damn, if I keep batting like this I should apply for a job on the show

[Backward Galaxy]

It's possible this is right in front of my face but, why does Wells need to fix timeline 2? How does Barry saving Nora mess things up?

[Sozzeled]

From what I have read in the comics, Nora's death is what makes Barry the hero he is today. It is what has him persue his science and criminal backgrounh.

[speople]

It's possible this is right in front of my face but, why does Wells need to fix timeline 2? How does Barry saving Nora mess things up?

There can be one of any number of reasons why Nora's death was a major event in the timeline. However it's clear that in timeline 3, Barry is headstrong (just rushes in without any thought, which is what Oliver noticed) and has a lot of self doubt as well. One of Wells' responsibilities is to make Barry BELIEVE that he can be the hero that he is meant to be.

It's possible that in timeline 2, with his mother still alive, Barry just wouldn't have the impetus to develop the necessary grit, determination, and desire, to battle against AND overcome, personal loss and adversity. So that when the crucial moment of the timeline eventually comes, he won't be able to break free from Psycho Pirate's control and destroy the cannon.(And that (his mother's murder) is a MAJOR personal loss esp in the manner of it, that Barry has to overcome)

A person who is unaffected by change (Wells), but yet who wanted to secure the end result of timeline 1 (Wells), would therefore want to end timeline 2 to put the end result of timeline 1, COIE, back on track, albeit now in timeline 3 due to Barry's interference in timeline 1.

Timelines are like roads, timeline 1 was straight until Barry saving Nora put a pothole in it, Wells made the pothole (timeline 2) into a roundabout whose only exit was a return to the straight and narrow road of timeline 1, the end destination is again the same, but some events are now different so anyone travelling along timeline 1 now ends up on timeline 3 instead. They won't notice the change, but it's there nevertheless.

Hope it helps.

[Exedore]

Interesting. And I did suspect Wells might be Rip Hunter. Though I think it's likely they will go with the simpler explanation that Wells is RF trying to mess with Barry's life. It would be cool if they make him Rip Hunter. Or HG Wells (I still like that idea ).

It's possible this is right in front of my face but, why does Wells need to fix timeline 2? How does Barry saving Nora mess things up?

Because a tragic origin/background is essential for a hero. Also, Flashpoint.

If Wells is one of the Linear Men, then he might just be protecting the timeline from changes and paradoxes.