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  • 10 - Climbed to the top of the greatest episodes ever.

    29 56.86%
  • 9

    13 25.49%
  • 8

    4 7.84%
  • 7

    2 3.92%
  • 6

    1 1.96%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    1 1.96%
  • 3

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  • 1 - Well Arrow is dead in more ways than one.

    1 1.96%
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  1. #46
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    There was no real issue with how Ollie fought. He brought his A-game to the fight, it's just that Ra's game is several levels above him -- and Ollie knows this. He knew he was going to make a sacrifice by taking on the duel. Malcolm played him into an unwinnable scenario. For Thea, Ollie was going to do what must be done, in spite of the odds, and I can't think of no greater motivation than self-sacrifice for one's only living relative. It wouldn't blind him, on the contrary I think he would have been about as focused in a fight as he could ever be.

    It seemed a bit off that Felicity urged him to kill Ra's when even she acknowledged that the man is one of the most deadly men on earth. The only way to explain this is through the inevitable Olicity filter -- she had to show faith in him, in his humanity even though the odds were stacked against him and defeat/death the likely outcome.

    There was no way Ra's, in his first meeting with Ollie, could possibly lose. From a narrative standpoint, even a draw would have undercut Malcolm's formidable abilities (as an ex-disciple of Ra's) and would have made Ra's Al Ghul -- one of the DC universe's most dangerous villains -- look about as threatening as one of those local Starling City bank-robbing FOTW's. Ollie was going to lose this fight, even he knew it, and he was prepared to pay the price knowing he was doing it for Thea. As for Ollie not seeing visions of other important people in his life (where's Laurel, Roy, etc.), I am willing to chalk it up to: he ran out of time as his life-force allegedly slipped away into oblivion.

    Ollie was bested by a better opponent this time and I am fine with how it played out. It had to play out this way. Ollie was simply not in his league, as it should be. For the credibility of Ra's in the Arrow universe (and showing due respect to a DC A-lister villain), there could be no other outcome.

    "You have taken your last life."
    "You have lived your last day."

    If anything set the stage for those final minutes, it was this exchange. This may have been the moment Ollie realized he was in way over his head. Ra's may as well have hired a plane pulling a banner in the sky saying: "Bee. Emm. Efff. Stepping on the field."

  2. #47
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Oliver's journey back to being The Arrow will be a long and interesting one. Never before has he been beaten this badly, both mentally and physically. In his battles with Malcolm and Slade, he was slighty wounded physically, but beaten so badly mentally. Ra's gave him a huge dosage of both and poses as his greatest threat to date. I love that this show raised the villain level in each of their seasons. I didn't think Ra's could surpass Slade, but he has. Way to go, Arrow show!!!

  3. #48
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    based on the animated movie of son of batman slade wilson aka deathstroke is also able to hold his own against ras al ghul

  4. #49
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    eh people can say Ra's is just better then him all they want my eye test says other wise oliver looked completely off his game both slow and clumsy even when Ra's didn't actually touch him. its not just that oliver missed and lost his balance it's how he looked falling off balance compared to how he's looked other times when he's missed. again both times with out being touched before he'd miss and be forced a few steps past his opponent and collect him self this time he stumbled a lot more steps was slow in taking those step meaning he was slow in getting out of ra's range and was slow in collecting himself after missing all with out ra's touching him. he was slowly building up to his a game as the fight went on but never actually reached it.

    it seems to me people are just going off of 1. oliver lost so he must be worse than ra's and 2. ra's is suppose to be a big deal therefore he must be better than oliver rather than looking at the actual fight and saying yeah that was olivers at his best and ra's still beat him.

  5. #50
    Posting Pro PHOENIXZERO's Avatar
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    Arrow's IMO biggest weakness, like Flash is the network that its on and what seems to be a general requirement for most of the shows on it and excessive soapy drama and that certain fan service that they started pandering to last season doesn't help either. Not to say without it all that the show would improve dramatically but I think it'd be better if it were dialed down a good deal. I think a bigger issue this season has been a seeming lack of focus and having nearly a dozen characters fighting for screen time (of which there's only around 42 minutes of per episode) hasn't helped matters. I really, really hope the whining about Liam Neeson has been put to rest, despite some extremely obvious, poorly covered up stunt double shots during that fight Matt Nable looked damn impressive all around. Far better than a 62 year old Neeson could hope to, hell already call Nable the definitive Ra's in live action. I'm also glad that it seems they won't be following the Nolan "realism" junk with Ra's only being a title. I think his mentioning that it's been 67 years since he was last challenged was interesting beyond the implications. I still maintain that Mirakuru was derived (but not perfected) from a Lazurus Pit.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandabeast View Post
    based on the animated movie of son of batman slade wilson aka deathstroke is also able to hold his own against ras al ghul
    Yet made to look like a complete chump by a 10 year old, standard Slade. Bad movie with little relevance to the show when it comes to Slade's prowess compared to Ra's though, just like the comics.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    The Oliver/Thea thing makes sense I guess but if Ra's thinks Oliver's view is too narrow how is killing him going to help?
    Well, since it's almost a guarantee Oliver is dead, and we also are certain Oliver is going to be coming back, that leaves one thing: the Lazarus Pit. My understanding of the Pit is minimal, but I've seen it described as something that, while it heals the body, it can alter or damage the mind in some fashion. In this case, it might be that Ra's would see it as a way of opening Oliver's mind, and it will... just not in the way Ra's is hoping, I'd guess, seeing as Amell and the producers have intimated on several occasions now that this season (perhaps in conjunction with Flash?) will see the birth of an Arrow-verse Justice League.

    The one thing I do know is that while the Arrow writers might seem off-course on occasion when we see the episodes as they air, when I've gone back and watched the seasons in full, I've been able ot see how it all comes together. So I trust them to handle this whole Ra's-Oliver thing.

    Of course, the amusing thing is that character descriptions can be off.... after all, I don't think they listed the casting call for Ray to include that he's a cyber-stalker.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Well, since it's almost a guarantee Oliver is dead, and we also are certain Oliver is going to be coming back, that leaves one thing: the Lazarus Pit. My understanding of the Pit is minimal, but I've seen it described as something that, while it heals the body, it can alter or damage the mind in some fashion. In this case, it might be that Ra's would see it as a way of opening Oliver's mind, and it will... just not in the way Ra's is hoping, I'd guess, seeing as Amell and the producers have intimated on several occasions now that this season (perhaps in conjunction with Flash?) will see the birth of an Arrow-verse Justice League.
    The pit results usually in short term insanity which will go away fairly quickly. The one exception to this that I can remember was when The Joker was put into the pit (can't remember why) and it actually caused his to be sane for a while.
    Your theory could certainly be plausible and there certainly is an arguement to be made as of why he would do such a thing I just don't see it being the case. If he did that then it would pretty much be him saying "You killed my daughters love so here suffer a bit of pain and death and I'll bring you back", which isn't who Ra's is at all.

  8. #53
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    for everyone asking. the reason why Ra's didn't stab Oliver in the heart is so that he could give him that epic arabic speach about honour and stuff before kicking him off the mountain. and secondly. in the next coming episode's trailer, we see that Maseo has spotted Oliver's dead body and offically declared him dead, therefore i think that Oliver is oficially dead, and he will have to be resurrected by the Lazarus Pit. the producers even gave Stephen Amell (actor of Oliver Queen) a month or so of holidays, so that explains the long process of Oliver being dead and resurrected by Maseo without being detected and stuff... and this gives time for Felicity to mourn over Oliver's death and to finally realise that she loves him when Oliver returns from the dead as well as time for Ray to become the ATOM and temporarily replace Oliver/Arrow while he is 'away'. Plus Laurel also needs time to advance in her skills and training in order to become Black Canary...

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Well, since it's almost a guarantee Oliver is dead, and we also are certain Oliver is going to be coming back, that leaves one thing: the Lazarus Pit. My understanding of the Pit is minimal, but I've seen it described as something that, while it heals the body, it can alter or damage the mind in some fashion. In this case, it might be that Ra's would see it as a way of opening Oliver's mind, and it will... just not in the way Ra's is hoping, I'd guess, seeing as Amell and the producers have intimated on several occasions now that this season (perhaps in conjunction with Flash?) will see the birth of an Arrow-verse Justice League.
    That makes a lot of sense but do you have to be dead for the Lazarus Pit to work?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipzo View Post
    Well you need to remember that he did just climb his way up an entire mountain with no help at all. I don't care how fit you are but that is going to take a toll on your physically. Also Ra's is a vastly superior fighter to Oliver, with centuries of training behind him so he should be able to mop the floor with Oliver.
    If you see an exhibition boxing match between a retired (or almost retired) boxer and an up and coming boxer, the retired boxer will usually clean up without much of a problem given his experience. This isn't to say that the up and coming boxer can't fight as he most certainly can but he is not match against his opponent.

    Also when you think about it, he struggled to defeat Malcolm who was trained by one of Ra's underlings. Ra's is the leader of the league, the most talented fighter of them all and probably trained most of the current trainers himself. If Oliver managed to stand toe-to-toe against the Malcolm's master's master then there would be a clear problem there.
    The things you are mentioning can be true, but they still don't explain that fight to me. I'm going to have to watch it again, but I don't even remember Ollie trying a single feint. It was all reckless straight ahead slashes and stabs. I have been a huge fan of the fight coordinator of this show since years ago in Stargate Atlantis. I can't imagine this was unintentional. Seriously, go and look at any other fight with Ollie this season, and you will see a ton of blocks, counters, feints. But in this fight, he was doing none of that. I'm not saying RAG is a bad fighter, he took extreme advantage of the sloppy attacks and finished it quickly. It is entirely possible if Ollie had given it his A game, the outcome would have been the same. But it didn't seem like he brought his A game, imo. I'll rewatch it this weekend. Sometimes, my mind sees things that aren't there, but I remember thinking the entire fight, WTH Ollie? Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but this is a lot of similar to my own fighting style, and I can't imagine Ollie making n00b mistakes. Another facet is, I can't imagine RAG didn't also realize the same thing. He almost didn't have to perform any offense, he simply turned most of Ollies attacks back against him. Except for the scary stab at the end.

    And it also seemed that RAG liked Ollie somewhat after killing him

    And the climb up the mountain may have had something to do with it. But if it had tired him out, I would expect him to have fought more defensively and cautiously, not more recklessly.
    Last edited by NightHawk777; 12-12-2014 at 06:47 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmine-Infantino View Post
    They want us to believe Quentin is to dumb to realize something's wrong with Laurel, but his ex-wife takes one look and just knows. Not believable.
    At this point it's become clearly obvious that Quentin can't figure out a secret even if it slaps him in the face. Whether it's the Arrow's identity or Sara's death. Maybe Dinah should become the police captain instead.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicallypuzzled View Post
    eh people can say Ra's is just better then him all they want my eye test says other wise oliver looked completely off his game both slow and clumsy even when Ra's didn't actually touch him. its not just that oliver missed and lost his balance it's how he looked falling off balance compared to how he's looked other times when he's missed. again both times with out being touched before he'd miss and be forced a few steps past his opponent and collect him self this time he stumbled a lot more steps was slow in taking those step meaning he was slow in getting out of ra's range and was slow in collecting himself after missing all with out ra's touching him. he was slowly building up to his a game as the fight went on but never actually reached it.

    it seems to me people are just going off of 1. oliver lost so he must be worse than ra's and 2. ra's is suppose to be a big deal therefore he must be better than oliver rather than looking at the actual fight and saying yeah that was olivers at his best and ra's still beat him.
    I agree. I dont' know alot about RAG, but apparently from comics he is a top tier villain. But they haven't spent enough time building him up as so on this TV show. But that doesn't matter, as they could have still had Ollie bring his real fighting game. From what I am reading here, it wouldn't have beat RAG anyway. Since when has Ollie gone down without a fight? I really think he did it on purpose. It makes me think there was something going on with the way he threw the fight. Especially the beginning of the fight, as you mentioned. If you are experience with double swords, and the other guy is unarmed, he has to be incredible to escape without a scratch. But if you just hand him your sword, and he takes it, then he would be dumb not to accept the gift.

    Anyway, it will bug me. I can attempt to suspend my disbelief that Thea killed Sara. But how could this be remotely possible? How could Sara not have a million ways to escape that situation? Its like she didn't have her A game either.

    And now this. I hope it doesn't mean they are trying to build up others (Thea, RAG) by making our well known fighters (Sara, Oliver) become sloppy and many steps below what they are capable of.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    At this point it's become clearly obvious that Quentin can't figure out a secret even if it slaps him in the face. Whether it's the Arrow's identity or Sara's death. Maybe Dinah should become the police captain instead.
    I just remembered, once in the past, Quentin made a big deal about not wanting to know who the Arrow is. Maybe he's like the ostrich with his head stuck in the ground? If he doesn't look to hard, he doesn't have to come to grips with it

  14. #59
    Taylor Swift Caught_In_The_Sun's Avatar
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    10!

    Everything worked for me. I loved the stuff with Felicity & Ray. I am calling it...he will be SuperIronMan! They ain't going with the comics.
    Last edited by Caught_In_The_Sun; 12-12-2014 at 07:54 AM.

  15. #60
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    It was overall a thrilling finale. I can't give it a 10, though it came pretty darn close. Sure, it was busy with the additional subplots (some of which could have been saved for the new year -- the excess Olicity, the Ray subplot) but it delivered on being a "literal" cliffhanger.

    If there were suspension of disbelief moments, they all involved Thea. How she defeated Sara is something I will need to digest. We have to presume that seeing Thea on the rooftop was such a surprise that it caught her off-guard? This is hard to buy into. The other moment is the use of mind control on her to do Malcolm's bidding. I'd have to agree with some reviews I've read that it's a convenient get-out-of-responsibility (or jail time?) card: once used with Roy re: mirakuru-induced killing of a cop, and now Thea with Sara's death. I'm presuming that in both instances, these "passes" were issued for Ollie's benefit. Since they were under the influence, they are technically still in the realm of redemption, so Ollie has a reason to fight for them. If they killed consciously knowing it was wrong, Ollie could wash his hands of them, cast them aside and let the authorities deal with them. It might have been dramatically more satisfying to see them wrestle with what they've done -- and they may yet still do that, but with the under the influence defence they will get a pass on the real consequences.

    At this point, for Quentin not knowing the Arrow's identity I've retconned that he's pulling a Jim Gordon -- he knows it but chooses not to openly admit it for the greater good, etc. As for not knowing Sara is dead, I'd have to agree again with other reviews that suggest Dinah is a better detective than he is. I've never been a fan of the secrets-and-lies subplots these shows trot out each season, it's all for melodrama. And worse, it makes Quentin or whoever is being kept in the dark look clueless or even idiotic.

    As for Ollie being on a dramatic hiatus, I think out of necessity they need to reinforce the development of the other cast members, whether this is Laurel, Roy, Diggle, Thea and so on. If this means Ollie steps back and goes through a personal "rebirth" however it may pan out, I'm all for it. Felicity also needs some further development, in the world-outside-the Arrowcave-and-work sense, and not in the shipper sense as she's holding down three jobs on this front (Barry, anyone?).

    Ray has got to stop taking relationship advice from the seemingly mild-mannered reporter from Metropolis who "stalked" his high school sweetheart Lana more times than he'd care to admit, to the point where only a Lex-induced kryptonized allergy kept them apart. Ray: excited for your ATOM subplot -- your workplace harassment of Lana, I mean, Felicity, not so much. Mr. Palmer, I believe that's HR on line 2.

    (And, no, I don't think Felicity is like Lana. The evolution of Ralicity so far? -- the DNA of Clana is all over it).
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 12-12-2014 at 10:25 AM.

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