View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Like Thea, it kicked @$$

    5 20.83%
  • 9

    6 25.00%
  • 8

    9 37.50%
  • 7

    3 12.50%
  • 6

    1 4.17%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1 - Needs more training from Wildcat

    0 0%
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  1. #31
    Forum Regular Arrowaddict22's Avatar
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    I have no qualms about ollie saying No to training laurel. my take is that he understands how tough and ruthless he needs to be train someone. look at malcolm, and practically burning Thea. Ollie would and could not do that to laurel. I read the situation as simply him not wanting to hurt he, and not wanting her to get involved in the dangerous life of a vigilante.

    I loved the episode. Thea has become a fighter. We did nto see any evidence of her become a hardened murderer/vigilante - only a good fighter. it will be interesting to see what role she takes on in Star(ling) city. i loved the comment by oliver that he does not know how to take a normal vacation. Also interesting is that thea does not mention Malcolm - for all her commentary of Ollie not telling the truth to protect her. double standards indeed.

    ollie knows Spanish - so in 3 years (after the island) he has learned Chinese, Russian and Spanish.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I'm not as concerned that either Laurel or Thea aren't up to speed on being Ollie or even Roy-level in the vigilante hero department -- because I'm not expecting them to be at this point. I think Laurel's failed experiment to dive into the street-fighting business now without proper preparation was their way of showing that she's not going to go blindly into it. She took a beating and, lesson learned, now she is going to prepare eg. take her time with it. I don't even expect her to "become" Black Canary this season. At all. Hers is a slow-burn journey. I'd go back to what I've said before: if Ollie himself is only 2+ years into his (alleged) five-year journey to becoming the Green Arrow of legend, then why would Laurel be expected to achieve her destiny sooner than him? I actually liked how they handled her story arc so far this season, it seems to be more focused.
    I don't mind either not being up to par with Oliver's fighting ability, I just recall one of the writers mentioning Laurel's journey becoming Black Canary will be faster than some people think. I was already generous when I stated I could possibly see her take up the role around the middle of season 4, after that comment though I'm suspecting they'll be having her fight as Canary in the season finale latest.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Ollie's reaction to it was a bit confusing. Okay, he's concerned how Quentin and his health will take the news of Laurel taking up the vigilante cause; she was also concerned how her dad might take news of Sara's death. But, Ollie thinks Sara wouldn't go along with it -- despite the fact the jacket hand-off last season was all but giving her consent for taking up the fight for justice. You just know he's not on board with her plans to protect her
    I don't see Sara having that much forethought that Laurel should be taking up the same type of fight for justice as Sara was doing, remember Laurel is fighting for justice successfully as a DA and Sara witnessed how tough her sister is when she not only got Quentin out of prison but even reinstated as a police officer. The jacket hand-off was more for us viewers, not so much Sara saying "Get out on the streets with Oliver/Arrow and kick some butt."

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I know some viewers think Sara is "already" BC -- but while she may have looked the part and had the combat skills, her moral compass was still skewered and not even near the level we'd expect for a future Justice Leaguer, one who Superman or Batman could trust. This is the angle people seem to forget re: BC. Sara may have been a proto-"Canary" in the series, but as far as I'm concerned, the BC I expect to see (the one who is worthy enough to stand side by side with the likes of Superman, Batman, etc.) hasn't showed up on the show yet. Nor do I expect her to until later seasons.
    While I loved Sara's role I agree that her moral compass was off, I just think she was so much closer to the role of Black Canary than Laurel is. Laurel we've watched having moral dilemma's in her love life, trying to get a handle on addiction and going very close to borderline criminal abusing her DA status. Along with her getting her moral compass in order Laurel also needs physical training which puts her miles behind Sara in becoming Black Canary.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipzo View Post
    Unless I have missed something, Oliver is still completely unaware that Sara gave her jacket to Laurel. Him not wanting her to take up the cause I think is understandable given all the things he has went through and the fact Sara got killed being a trained member of the LoA as well. Losing 1 of the last 2 people he has known for years would be unacceptable in his mind so of course he will try and prevent her from going down that path.
    That in itself sets up a few potential interesting story lines between Oliver and Laurel/Ted Grant, or the Arrow and Grant (which I think will happen given some of the promo's on Amell's page pre this season).
    Laurel mentioned to Oliver while they were sitting in Verdant something along the lines of "When she wears Sara's jacket she feels like she can do something" so Oliver knows about the jacket. I just don't see the jacket hand-off as Sara saying "Go out and kick some butt."

  4. #34
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    I think Sara's jacket was more Laurel seeing it as as blessing in her eyes -- but in the more general, find-your-own-path sense. Fighting for what's right in the generic sense, not necessarily picking up a bo staff and patrolling alleyways. Of course as an audience it is a passing of the torch, with the jacket becoming a symbol and motivator for Laurel. In this context, Laurel's prosecutorial tag-team with Ollie in locking up those he catches fits into this narrative. I think they've handled nicely that Laurel wants to be more than the Order side of the equation, and they've dealt with her potentially impulsive unready side by handing her a beating. It is a lesson learned and going to Ted's gym is a sign she won't be as reckless again. How they play out Ted and Laurel's relationship (platonic? more than that? full-on soapy ship fest?) could affect how well (and how soon) she gets up to speed.

    Everyone on Arrow has been broken personality-wise due to their experiences. And while Sara and Ollie are likely most prepared in the combat side of being a hero, it is more than this experience that will make them worthy to serve in the JLA. A hero to look up to. None of them are even close against this litmus test. While Laurel needs to get up to speed on the combat side, Sara totally needs to get up to speed on the moral clarity side before anyone can link themselves to the Canary mantle.

    And training with assassins without moral qualms about killing, led by a fanatical egomaniac isn't necessarily something Sara would want to advertise at a JLA screening interview. Superman would likely object on moral grounds, Batman more on the trust side.

    I actually think Batman would reserve his harshest judgment for Ollie himself, let alone on which Lance is ready to be a Canary.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think Sara's jacket was more Laurel seeing it as as blessing in her eyes -- but in the more general, find-your-own-path sense. Fighting for what's right in the generic sense, not necessarily picking up a bo staff and patrolling alleyways. Of course as an audience it is a passing of the torch, with the jacket becoming a symbol and motivator for Laurel. In this context, Laurel's prosecutorial tag-team with Ollie in locking up those he catches fits into this narrative. I think they've handled nicely that Laurel wants to be more than the Order side of the equation, and they've dealt with her potentially impulsive unready side by handing her a beating. It is a lesson learned and going to Ted's gym is a sign she won't be as reckless again. How they play out Ted and Laurel's relationship (platonic? more than that? full-on soapy ship fest?) could affect how well (and how soon) she gets up to speed.
    I don't want to be sounding as if I dislike where Laurel is going or with how they're going about getting there since the end of season 2, I just have reservations about how quickly they want to make that journey. Since Laurel helped Arrow retrieve the file on Blood I've been loving her growth. I'd prefer seeing Laurel and Ted on a platonic level but I doubt that's going to happen, let's hope they don't go overboard with a Taurel ship and keep it to a simple love interest to wake Oliver up.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Everyone on Arrow has been broken personality-wise due to their experiences. And while Sara and Ollie are likely most prepared in the combat side of being a hero, it is more than this experience that will make them worthy to serve in the JLA. A hero to look up to. None of them are even close against this litmus test. While Laurel needs to get up to speed on the combat side, Sara totally needs to get up to speed on the moral clarity side before anyone can link themselves to the Canary mantle.
    I'm not denying Sara's a killer nor that she probably killed just before getting killed herself but let's not forget that she returned to Starling City before linking up with Oliver already tired of the killing and Sin seemed to aid her slightly in gaining somewhat of a moral compass. Admitted, I doubt Sara would ever qualify morally as one of the founders of the Justice League, I just didn't see her as far from wearing the mantle as I see Laurel. Laurel you can't look up to for her fighting skills nor for her moral values at the moment with her abusing her position as a DA. Blackmailing the DA for her job and again to get Quentin out of prison? Bypassing Quentin's officers to get into the hospital room and then beating information out of a patient? You can't give Laurel a completely free pass on the killing either, she hasn't killed yet because she hasn't had the chance to. Puppetmaker, Komodo... Both I'm sure she would've gladly have killed if she could've. Komodo was saved because Oliver emptied the magazine before he let Laurel take the gun.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 10-24-2014 at 05:12 PM.

  6. #36
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    I thought the episode was all right, I was just disappointment there wasn't more with Thea and Malcolm. That's what I really wanted to see after how they left off last season! Their flashbacks were too brief for my taste, but I did like that they continued the scene from the limo. Not that I have anything against Diggle, he was great as always, but such a missed opportunity to showcase those two a little more. I did like that he hugged her, and I was hoping for another father/daughter hug at the end, but I guess that's not their kind of relationship . As for Thea becoming such a good fighter in a few months, I agree with a review I had read that with all that Malcolm was putting her through (the burning, the elbow to the face...etc.), she really need to be a quick study. Hopefully she will continue to develop more as the season progresses. I did enjoy her conversations with both Oliver and Roy, and I glad that she wasn't mad at them especially Roy. When she said that he wasn't the only reason that she left Starling City, but her family as well, I liked that and hopefully makes Roy feel like it wasn't all his fault.

    As for the ARGUS stuff involving that guy, it was ok. I did like Oliver making those "hotelmade" bows and arrows. Felicity and Palmer were entertaining especially that scene in the office. Wouldn't it make Palmer suspicious about what she does during her free time? I didn't mind Laurel in this episode. I thought she was a bit better, and her scene in the hospital was well done, but I keep yelling at the TV that she should tell Quentin about Sara.....just tell him!!!

    Next week: Nice to see more Malcolm, and I just can't wait to see Oliver's reaction which I was hoping we would see in this episode.

  7. #37
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    The episode was a little all over the place, but was clearly setting up some important story lines.

    One thing that stood out for me this episode was Colton Haynes getting more than a few sentences and grunts to say this time. It made me realize that the reason I've seen Roy as such a *meh* character so far has more to do with the writing of his character than Haynes' talent. Some of his potential showed through this episode, and I hope that writers gain more confidence in letting him carry more dramatic weight than just being the "angry, pretty boy."

  8. #38
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    The start of Thea's S3 story arc was the clear focus of the episode, everything else was secondary -- the ARGUS-related side adventure, Laurel's experiment with vigilantism, Ray and Felicity's subplot. As it should have been, but the side-effect that other subplots were either weak (the ARGUS one) or too-brief (Ray and Felicity). Laurel's subplot was actually better than I anticipated and reflects what seems to be a better handling of her character's direction in S3.

    Laurel's extra-judicial behaviour re: witness may seem just thrown in there, how dare she cross the line etc. But I think the point, as haphazard as it seemed writing-wise, was to demonstrate that she was impatient serving as a cog in the flawed wheel of the SC legal system and took it upon herself to "accelerate" the process. The beat-down she got this ep. was her wake-up call on this sort of behaviour.

    I'm in favour of the go-slow approach re: all things Laurel. I think it would benefit her character in the long run and the handling of BC in the Arrow universe in general. While I didn't get the sense she had as much direction in S2 until late in the season, I think they're on more solid footing with her this season.

    A case can be made that portraying Sara (who I actually like as a character) as a proto-Canary so early on had the side-effect of making comparisons -- some fair, others not -- between her and Laurel, whether that's on ability/skills, moral outlook or the broadly-defined "worthiness/right to the BC mantle" ... even though neither Canary or even GA of legend is not on the horizon so far. It's more shades of grey, with either Sara or Laurel, and no doubt the mantle must be earned. It's a moot point with Sara dead, assuming Lazarus Pit-like resurrection doesn't come into play. Narratively speaking, I think it would need to be permanent. They've both had moments of moral ambiguity -- and Ollie himself could be permanently disqualified from JLA entry if we were to apply the pass-fail method with his own moral failings. Where viewers may differ is the sliding scale of which failing gets more or less weight.

    TPTB haven't been fair with Sara either -- it seemed like she did turn a corner in S2 re: stepping out of the darkness, only to apparently relapse into killer mode and send her into exile late in the season. This and Laurel's too-long addiction arc were symptoms of the generally weaker character development of many of Team Arrow's supporting members. I'd have to include Felicity and Thea in there.

    But I do feel that S3 is increasingly looking like step in the right direction, since both Thea and Felicity appear to be moving beyond sideline-status and entering potentially character-defining story arcs.

  9. #39
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    I really liked the episode but a few things bothered me A LOT.

    I really like the new Thea. Childish Thea was a character I didn't like in S1. Every time she appeared on screen I was thinking "not her again !". I began to respect the character in S2 and finally liked her a lot in the end of S2. The new Thea is amazing. Of course 6 months is too short to become what she is now but at least this progression seems coherent with her characterization. I must admit that Laurel becoming BC is something I still find completely ridiculous. But I can totally imagine Thea becoming a villain once she would understand that Oliver lied again to her about the Arrow and finally becoming an Arrow sidekick in the end.

    Nyssa's apparition was incredible ! I'm glad we are going to see her again. I would like to see Sin too but it seems that the writers forgot about her.

    The Argus plot was very weak, with Diggle to easily being defeated. When Oliver was hiding behind the oil barrel, why on earth did he just stood up ? I was screaming at the screen "what are you doing ?" exactly like when I watch a soccer game and the player do a very big mistake.

    I liked that the episode was lighter than the previous one (but that's was not difficult).

    What I didn't like :

    Actually as I'm not understanding spoken English very well, as Arrow is a very fast show, as subtitles are sometimes false, in the end of the first viewing I sometimes don't understand everything. but it bother me a lot when in the end of the second viewing I still don't understand.

    1 - Do Oliver know that Felicity is working for Ray ? he just says nothing, but I don't know if it's because if he doesn't know or if it's because he doesn't want to talk about it. If he knows and they just cut the scene when she told him, I will blame them forever.

    2 - I think it's a great idea that Thea and Oliver still have secrets from one another. But Thea will ask Oliver where does he live and how is he going to answer not telling her he's the Arrow ?

    If someone can enlighten me about this ?

  10. #40
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    @President_Luthor I completely agree that the hospitalized witness was a very important part of Laurel's story arc and I understand where she was going with her overstepping her bounds in questioning him, I could see Batman doing a similar thing although he'd swoop into the room in costume and twist the guys arm for information instead of abusing the DA position to get in. My point there is only that I see Black Canary as a lawful character, which Laurel was in season 1, but she's been going a much more neutral direction morally since season 2.

    We are comparing Sara with Laurel which is unfair to both character's honestly. You're right the point should be moot seeing Sara is dead and I expected her to die soon after the season 2 finale. The Lazarus Pit is a fairly big part in Ra's Al Ghul's storyline explaining among other things why he's lived for so long but I don't see the writers bringing that part of his story into Arrow, it pushes into the superpower/supernatural direction much further than the mirakuru ever could.

    @like a bird your point 1 the answer is nobody knows yet that Felicity is working for Ray Palmer, at least she hasn't told anyone anything other than she's got a new job. I did find it odd that she was so surprised, you'd think she'd have asked what her task would be, how much he'd be paying her or something about what he had planned and yet she walks in and is completely baffled.

  11. #41
    Most of the time that you see people in positions of authority/power using that power/authority to get what they want on television, it's usually because they're bad people with bad intentions, but what I like about what the writers have done with Laurel is that every time she's bent the rules a bit legally, she's been doing it for genuinely pure reasons. Yes, her behavior puts her on extremely shaky legal ground ethically, but it works - for me, anyway - because it feels organic and real.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think Sara's jacket was more Laurel seeing it as as blessing in her eyes -- but in the more general, find-your-own-path sense. Fighting for what's right in the generic sense, not necessarily picking up a bo staff and patrolling alleyways. Of course as an audience it is a passing of the torch, with the jacket becoming a symbol and motivator for Laurel. In this context, Laurel's prosecutorial tag-team with Ollie in locking up those he catches fits into this narrative. I think they've handled nicely that Laurel wants to be more than the Order side of the equation, and they've dealt with her potentially impulsive unready side by handing her a beating. It is a lesson learned and going to Ted's gym is a sign she won't be as reckless again. How they play out Ted and Laurel's relationship (platonic? more than that? full-on soapy ship fest?) could affect how well (and how soon) she gets up to speed.

    Everyone on Arrow has been broken personality-wise due to their experiences. And while Sara and Ollie are likely most prepared in the combat side of being a hero, it is more than this experience that will make them worthy to serve in the JLA. A hero to look up to. None of them are even close against this litmus test. While Laurel needs to get up to speed on the combat side, Sara totally needs to get up to speed on the moral clarity side before anyone can link themselves to the Canary mantle.

    And training with assassins without moral qualms about killing, led by a fanatical egomaniac isn't necessarily something Sara would want to advertise at a JLA screening interview. Superman would likely object on moral grounds, Batman more on the trust side.

    I actually think Batman would reserve his harshest judgment for Ollie himself, let alone on which Lance is ready to be a Canary.
    I love the JLA, but why are they relevant to whats happening in TV Arrow? I'm not sure if what Superman or Batman would think of them really matters inside the world of TV Arrow.

  13. #43
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    That was such an enjoyable episode. I really like the episodes that take place outside Starling City. Also, not being a fan of the flashbacks, I liked that they were not in this episode.

    I'm curious to know if Oliver was killing those soldiers when he started using the gun.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    That was such an enjoyable episode. I really like the episodes that take place outside Starling City. Also, not being a fan of the flashbacks, I liked that they were not in this episode.

    I'm curious to know if Oliver was killing those soldiers when he started using the gun.
    I watched it again last night, and i was thinking the flashbacks mainly were Thea flashbacks in this episode. She has short hair, but they kept showing her with long hair while dealing with Malcolm. They weren't 5 years back, but still, they were kinda flashbacks.

    And I was really trying to pay attention to what happened in that big fight with Ollie, Roy and Diggle. It really looked like he was hitting guys in the knee (I laffed remembering Skryim), the shoulder, etc. But when the gun came out it was hard to determine where the hits were going. I can only assume if he went to the trouble to avoid slaying them with the arrows, he probably did the same with the gun.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    I watched it again last night, and i was thinking the flashbacks mainly were Thea flashbacks in this episode. She has short hair, but they kept showing her with long hair while dealing with Malcolm. They weren't 5 years back, but still, they were kinda flashbacks.

    And I was really trying to pay attention to what happened in that big fight with Ollie, Roy and Diggle. It really looked like he was hitting guys in the knee (I laffed remembering Skryim), the shoulder, etc. But when the gun came out it was hard to determine where the hits were going. I can only assume if he went to the trouble to avoid slaying them with the arrows, he probably did the same with the gun.
    I meant the Oliver flashbacks not the Thea ones. I quite liked the Thea flashback scenes.

    There was definitely at least one guy who Oliver didn't shoot in the knee. I think Oliver shot him in the shoulder at least.

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