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The thread title is wrong: it should be "season one killings", since he vowed not to kill any more in season two!
I'm putting this somewhat provocative post in the general tags, because they concern more than just shipping. My initial idea for writing this post is that I have come across so many posts (especially from Olicity fans, but by no means only from them), where the posters claim that Laurel and Oliver should never get together again because he treated her so badly in the past (or even in the present, when he hooked up with Sara again) that she would be a doormat to take him back. It doesn't really matter that he is no longer pre-island Oliver, but a changed man who at least has tried to redeem himself in her eyes. Felicity, on the other hand, has no tangled or toxic back story with Oliver, and their relationship would therefore be much better, because it is built on trust and respect.
It is also often stated that Felicity knows the "real", reformed Oliver, while Laurel is still somehow caught up in her old, unresolved relationship with pre-island cheater Oliver. Thus, the difference between the two relationships seems to hinge on the questions of Oliver's morals: a Laurel/Oliver relationship will be unhealthy because it started when Oliver was still a morally dubious man, while a Felicity/Oliver relationship will be healthy, because he is now a morally reformed man who would never cheat on her or treat her badly. I find the whole issue concerning Ollie's morals interesting, because they ONLY touch on sexual mores, while the IMHO much more essential question concerning his killings is consistently ignored, belittled, excused or retconned away in these shipper discussions. That's why I thought I'd start out with a random and rather typical argument, which is built on the premise that Laurel is much better off without Oliver, because their relationship is not healthy. The poster also uses the very common real world argument that she would not forgive or take back someone who cheated on her with her own sister, nor would she wish such a fate on her sister/best friend:
If Laurel were my sister or my friend I would like her to be in a healthier relationship.
Whenever I read this kind of arguments, I always wonder why literally NOBODY brings up the IMHO strongest moral argument against Oliver having a relationship with ANY woman, i.e. that he is a former killer (because we’re really talking about personal morals here)! So, when I read this kind of arguments, I get the urge to ask: Would you really want your sister or best friend to be in a relationship with a man who until recently didn’t hesitate to snap a guy’s neck if he needed to? It happened in the Pilot, in the Huntress episodes, even in the season one finale, where Oliver broke the necks of at least two men with his chains.He has also sent a number of arrows into people’s chests, with deadly consequences.
The fascinating thing is that very few Olicity fans (or Lauriver fans, for that matter!) view these trangressions, which in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of the Lord are MUCH worse than cheating, as any obstacle whatsoever for a prospective innocent, trusting and “healthy” romance/endgame! Since many Olicity fans find a Laurel/Oliver relationship toxic and degrading on moral grounds (i.e. because he cheated on her when they were young), I would expect them to be very wary of Felicity having a romantic relationship with a man who only a year ago went on a killing spree and took the lives of some thirty people. However, nobody seems to have any moral qualms about this. In fact, I get the impression that many Olicity shippers expect Felicity to enter into a somewhat “sweet and fluffy” romance with a man who is essentially a former serial killer….and that’s where they lose me. TBH, I don’t really understand how anyone can regard a relationship with someone who has so much blood on his hands as a “healthy” relationship….
I suggest that those of you who put forth arguments such as the one I cited should ponder this for a while…would you want YOUR sister to have a relationship/marry someone who only a year ago was essentially a cold-blooded murderer? Or maybe you are applying somethng akin to double standards when it comes to Oliver’s moral fibre, in the sense that you will say “it’s only television” when you consider the killings, while applying real world standards when you consider the cheating? I would really love to hear what peeps think is worse: cheating on someone six years ago and spending a whole season trying to redeem yourself, or killing some thirty people over the course of a season and then expecting everyone to forgive and forget (which they all actually did!)? If we apply real world critera I would say that killing is a much more serious crime and therefore also a much more important reason why Oliver shouldn’t be in a serious relationship with anyone, ever…..
Some folks might think that I’m taking things too seriously…However, the same argument could be raised against some fans' problem with Oliver’s cheating. If we agree that it’s only television and that on television even serial killers can be heroes of sorts (especially reformed serial killers!), whose heinous crimes are easily forgotten or retconned away from our conscience, why are some folks SO adamant that a cheater with a redemption arc should never be forgiven or taken back?
Also, even if some fans might bring forth the argument that Oliver didn’t have any choice but to kill, I’m not buying…The mere fact that he decided to change his M.O. after Tommy’s death shows that he had a choice all the time. In the season one episodes he was just so deep into his killer mentality that he didn’t care if people (mostly the bad guys’ henchmen) died or not, as long as he accomplished his mission. Also, saying that Felicity (or anyone else) will make him regain his humanity won’t bring the people he killed back to life. I personally don’t think that there is any kind of argument that could get around the fact that in the real world, if you take someone’s life you pay…..except under very special circumstances, such as in a war or if you kill in self-defence. The fictional comic book hero Oliver Queen was not a soldier and he didn’t kill in self-defense most of the time, and yet he will never have to pay for his sins. In fact, from a real world perspective I think his season two behavior was a bit psychopathic, because he didn’t seem to feel much remorse or go through much mental agony over the lives he took in season one. It was like “I can no longer be the killer I once was, so I changed my M.O., but I really don’t give a *beep* about the men I killed and their loved ones, who had their lives destroyed”.
"Thou shalt not kill" (the Hebrew original can also be translated "murder") is the most weighty commandment in the Bible, and Oliver has broken that commandment a great number of times. That’s why I am so baffled that (in some people’s eyes at least!) "pre-Island douchebag Ollie" was SO morally corrupt that his behavior will forever stand between his and Laurel's future happines, while "present-day former murderer Oliver" is such a morally upstanding man that he is the ideal soul mate/lover/husband for Felicity (or any other woman who is not Laurel). If you ask me, both/all women should stay away from him, not because of his cheating ways, but because of his killings.
I personally don’t have any huge problems with Oliver’s season one killings, because it IS only television. However, I think it’s a bit hypocritical to make such a big deal of SOME of Oliver’s moral flaws, while completely disregarding the much more grave ones. I mean, you don't really have to bring in morals when it comes to shipper discussions...you could simply state that you don't like the Laurel and Oliver relationship/romance or that it doesn't give you any "feels" , and vice versa. I don't really have any factual objections against a Felicity/Oliver romance...it just fails to excite me, and I don't think they are very compatible. Since shipping is a personal preference/feeling I think those reasons should be enough.
Also, the subject of Oliver's killings is IMHO not only a shipper issue...it goes deeper than that. For me it's not enough that Oliver decided to stop killing or that he decided to spare Slade despite that he killed his own mother. I think he needs to face up to what he did in the past. In a real life setting you can't just retcon away/erase killings commited in cold blood, and I think that the writers should at least acknowledge/touch upon that aspect of Oliver's season one character portrayal in the upcoming season. Otherwise his whole journey towards becoming a true hero will be somewhat half-assed..at least in my humble opinion.
I'm putting this somewhat provocative post in the general tags, because they concern more than just shipping. My initial idea for writing this post is that I have come across so many posts (especially from Olicity fans, but by no means only from them), where the posters claim that Laurel and Oliver should never get together again because he treated her so badly in the past (or even in the present, when he hooked up with Sara again) that she would be a doormat to take him back. It doesn't really matter that he is no longer pre-island Oliver, but a changed man who at least has tried to redeem himself in her eyes. Felicity, on the other hand, has no tangled or toxic back story with Oliver, and their relationship would therefore be much better, because it is built on trust and respect.
It is also often stated that Felicity knows the "real", reformed Oliver, while Laurel is still somehow caught up in her old, unresolved relationship with pre-island cheater Oliver. Thus, the difference between the two relationships seems to hinge on the questions of Oliver's morals: a Laurel/Oliver relationship will be unhealthy because it started when Oliver was still a morally dubious man, while a Felicity/Oliver relationship will be healthy, because he is now a morally reformed man who would never cheat on her or treat her badly. I find the whole issue concerning Ollie's morals interesting, because they ONLY touch on sexual mores, while the IMHO much more essential question concerning his killings is consistently ignored, belittled, excused or retconned away in these shipper discussions. That's why I thought I'd start out with a random and rather typical argument, which is built on the premise that Laurel is much better off without Oliver, because their relationship is not healthy. The poster also uses the very common real world argument that she would not forgive or take back someone who cheated on her with her own sister, nor would she wish such a fate on her sister/best friend:
If Laurel were my sister or my friend I would like her to be in a healthier relationship.
Whenever I read this kind of arguments, I always wonder why literally NOBODY brings up the IMHO strongest moral argument against Oliver having a relationship with ANY woman, i.e. that he is a former killer (because we’re really talking about personal morals here)! So, when I read this kind of arguments, I get the urge to ask: Would you really want your sister or best friend to be in a relationship with a man who until recently didn’t hesitate to snap a guy’s neck if he needed to? It happened in the Pilot, in the Huntress episodes, even in the season one finale, where Oliver broke the necks of at least two men with his chains.He has also sent a number of arrows into people’s chests, with deadly consequences.
The fascinating thing is that very few Olicity fans (or Lauriver fans, for that matter!) view these trangressions, which in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of the Lord are MUCH worse than cheating, as any obstacle whatsoever for a prospective innocent, trusting and “healthy” romance/endgame! Since many Olicity fans find a Laurel/Oliver relationship toxic and degrading on moral grounds (i.e. because he cheated on her when they were young), I would expect them to be very wary of Felicity having a romantic relationship with a man who only a year ago went on a killing spree and took the lives of some thirty people. However, nobody seems to have any moral qualms about this. In fact, I get the impression that many Olicity shippers expect Felicity to enter into a somewhat “sweet and fluffy” romance with a man who is essentially a former serial killer….and that’s where they lose me. TBH, I don’t really understand how anyone can regard a relationship with someone who has so much blood on his hands as a “healthy” relationship….
I suggest that those of you who put forth arguments such as the one I cited should ponder this for a while…would you want YOUR sister to have a relationship/marry someone who only a year ago was essentially a cold-blooded murderer? Or maybe you are applying somethng akin to double standards when it comes to Oliver’s moral fibre, in the sense that you will say “it’s only television” when you consider the killings, while applying real world standards when you consider the cheating? I would really love to hear what peeps think is worse: cheating on someone six years ago and spending a whole season trying to redeem yourself, or killing some thirty people over the course of a season and then expecting everyone to forgive and forget (which they all actually did!)? If we apply real world critera I would say that killing is a much more serious crime and therefore also a much more important reason why Oliver shouldn’t be in a serious relationship with anyone, ever…..
Some folks might think that I’m taking things too seriously…However, the same argument could be raised against some fans' problem with Oliver’s cheating. If we agree that it’s only television and that on television even serial killers can be heroes of sorts (especially reformed serial killers!), whose heinous crimes are easily forgotten or retconned away from our conscience, why are some folks SO adamant that a cheater with a redemption arc should never be forgiven or taken back?
Also, even if some fans might bring forth the argument that Oliver didn’t have any choice but to kill, I’m not buying…The mere fact that he decided to change his M.O. after Tommy’s death shows that he had a choice all the time. In the season one episodes he was just so deep into his killer mentality that he didn’t care if people (mostly the bad guys’ henchmen) died or not, as long as he accomplished his mission. Also, saying that Felicity (or anyone else) will make him regain his humanity won’t bring the people he killed back to life. I personally don’t think that there is any kind of argument that could get around the fact that in the real world, if you take someone’s life you pay…..except under very special circumstances, such as in a war or if you kill in self-defence. The fictional comic book hero Oliver Queen was not a soldier and he didn’t kill in self-defense most of the time, and yet he will never have to pay for his sins. In fact, from a real world perspective I think his season two behavior was a bit psychopathic, because he didn’t seem to feel much remorse or go through much mental agony over the lives he took in season one. It was like “I can no longer be the killer I once was, so I changed my M.O., but I really don’t give a *beep* about the men I killed and their loved ones, who had their lives destroyed”.
"Thou shalt not kill" (the Hebrew original can also be translated "murder") is the most weighty commandment in the Bible, and Oliver has broken that commandment a great number of times. That’s why I am so baffled that (in some people’s eyes at least!) "pre-Island douchebag Ollie" was SO morally corrupt that his behavior will forever stand between his and Laurel's future happines, while "present-day former murderer Oliver" is such a morally upstanding man that he is the ideal soul mate/lover/husband for Felicity (or any other woman who is not Laurel). If you ask me, both/all women should stay away from him, not because of his cheating ways, but because of his killings.
I personally don’t have any huge problems with Oliver’s season one killings, because it IS only television. However, I think it’s a bit hypocritical to make such a big deal of SOME of Oliver’s moral flaws, while completely disregarding the much more grave ones. I mean, you don't really have to bring in morals when it comes to shipper discussions...you could simply state that you don't like the Laurel and Oliver relationship/romance or that it doesn't give you any "feels" , and vice versa. I don't really have any factual objections against a Felicity/Oliver romance...it just fails to excite me, and I don't think they are very compatible. Since shipping is a personal preference/feeling I think those reasons should be enough.
Also, the subject of Oliver's killings is IMHO not only a shipper issue...it goes deeper than that. For me it's not enough that Oliver decided to stop killing or that he decided to spare Slade despite that he killed his own mother. I think he needs to face up to what he did in the past. In a real life setting you can't just retcon away/erase killings commited in cold blood, and I think that the writers should at least acknowledge/touch upon that aspect of Oliver's season one character portrayal in the upcoming season. Otherwise his whole journey towards becoming a true hero will be somewhat half-assed..at least in my humble opinion.
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