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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloisornothing View Post
    And I still think showrunners are still making what they intended to do since the start : turning Laurel into Black Canary. And what's happening to Laurel since second half of season 2 makes me think that will be the case.
    I agree with you on this, I see Laurel as the Future Black Canary and am willing to see how the show takes us to that direction. In terms of her purpose as a love interest, as I said I rate it on a scale that no matter what they do I probably will not have a super positive feelings about it(a few shows get positive marks on romantic plotlines in my books and generally I prefer it written in a comedy sense more then heavy drama) and getting a "not bad" is about as positive you'll get from me. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by cloisornothing View Post
    So if you ever try to make me saying or believing that Laurel is unnecessary, doesn't bring anything to the show : You are wrong because I will always support Laurel and I always believed that bringing Dinah Laurel Lance on Arrow was for something special, not just a simple love interest.
    I think their is only 1 character on the show that is necessary(ie the guy in the title), every other character is a matter of personal opinion. As I said in the case of Laurel I do think they could do much worse in the case of a love interest character

  2. #32
    And I want to add that Laurel wasn't a love interest in season 2. She had no lover in her life and honestly I like it. I like seeing her evolve on her own. And with Sariver happening, and Oliver hypocrite behavior coming back, I'm glad Laurel has her own storyline because she deserves it.

  3. #33
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Let's all sincerely hope Arrow doesn't turn into another Smallville. As for the Lana comparisons, I can see some common ground in how the character seems to be talked up and lauded by the show runner in a manner that doesn't to me seem like it fits with what is happening on screen. That blind adoration is actually the one thing that makes me pause and wonder if they really still intend for Laurel to morph into the Black Canary.

    I absolutely think that was the intention before the show started but I feel like once the found themselves with a fully working Canary in Sara, the decided to stay with her. But like I said, so much time devoted to Laurels "journey" makes me wonder if the show runners were aiming to show something or convey something I simply did not see happening on screen. It is I think my disconnect with the purpose of the character that leads ultimately to my irritation with the character.

    Obviously other people will have other experiences and they certainly have a right to believe what they believe, but sheer willpower is not going to make me suddenly find Laurel interesting or entertaining. Anyway, I think I've said my peace for now. I'll be watching future episodes to see what the show decides to do with her.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    But like I said, so much time devoted to Laurels "journey" makes me wonder if the show runners were aiming to show something or convey something I simply did not see happening on screen.
    The fact that Laurel is getting her own little side stories tells me that the character is involved in the shows long terms plans some way or another(else why would they give her side stories to build up her character). I think people thinking Laurel would somehow been written out of the show after this year were more basing it off personal wishes then what we actually see on screen

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supsfan View Post
    The fact that Laurel is getting her own little side stories tells me that the character is involved in the shows long terms plans some way or another(else why would they give her side stories to build up her character). I think people thinking Laurel would somehow been written out of the show after this year were more basing it off personal wishes then what we actually see on screen
    That sounds very plausible....As for finding a storyline interesting and entertaining, I have to say that *I* am personally more invested in Laurel's journey/storylines than Sara's, which have failed to really engage me so far.

    And for the record, there are quite a few fans who don't feel like Sara is "a fully working Black Canary". They may not be very vocal on this forum, but if you check forums like imdb and reddit there are threads where fans complain about/have their doubts about Sara's character. Of course there have been many similar threads about Laurel, so this is not an argument in Laurel's favor...All I'm saying is that Sara/Caity Lotz is not some kind of panacea who is going to replace Laurel/Katie as the show's Black Canary and make everything hunky dory in the "Arrow" universe or in the "Arrow" fandom. Sara has fallen victim of some pretty poor writing, just like Laurel, and just like Katie has her detractors, there are fans who find Caity's acting less than satisfactory. My fandom experience is that viewers will always have diverging opinions about characters and storylines, and since it is almost impossible to please everyone all the time, I think the showrunners should beware of listening too much to the online fans.

    As for only having little side stories, I think one reason why both Laurel and Thea seem to circulate somewhere in the periphery of the main action is because they are two major characters who don't know about Ollie's secret identity and who therefore are somewhat cut off from the crimefighting A-story. When they have been let in on the secret (which I hope won't take too long!), their stories will be more tightly aligned with Oliver's. The character who has suffered the most when it comes to lack of an independent storyline and screen time is IMHO Thea, who in some eps didn't even have a speaking part. That is why I'm looking forward to her little (or big!) story with Slade, if only because it will bring her into the thick of the action.
    Last edited by evaba; 03-30-2014 at 01:59 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    My fandom experience is that viewers will always have diverging opinions about characters and storylines, and since it is almost impossible to please everyone all the time, I think the showrunners should beware of listening too much to the online fans.
    Yeah I definitely think assuming your opinion of a show or character is the opinion/direction of that character for the showrunners will set you up for disappointment. As you said many times you will get a competing view of the direction of a character between 2 fans/fangroups, so both can't be right and there is also the possibility both can be wrong.

    I think the one that sticks out to me in the Smallville fandom is I get a chuckle reading those old Chlois threads every now and then and seeing people being polar opposites of it happening or not. The Pro Chlois side set itself basically up for a huge disappointment basing their opinion of the direction of the show on something that never was going to happen because they were so adamant that they had the Rosetta Stone to read into the producers minds.
    Last edited by Supsfan; 03-30-2014 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    That sounds very plausible....As for finding a storyline interested and entertaining, I have to say that *I* am personally more invested in Laurel's journey/storylines than Sara's, which have failed to really engage me so far.

    And for the record, there are quite a few fans who don't feel like Sara is "a fully working Black Canary". They may not be very vocal on this forum, but if you check forums like imdb and reddit there are threads where fans complain about/have their doubts about Sara's character. Of course there have been many similar threads about Laurel, so this is not an argument in Laurel's favor...All I'm saying is that Sara/Caity Lotz is not some kind of panacea who is going to replace Laurel/Katie as the show's Black Canary and make everything hunky dory in the "Arrow" universe or in the "Arrow" fandom. Sara has fallen victim of some pretty poor writing, just like Laurel, and just like Katie has her detractors, there are fans who find Caity's acting less than satisfactory. My fandom experience is that viewers will always have diverging opinions about characters and storylines, and since it is almost impossible to please everyone all the time, I think the showrunners should beware of listening too much to the online fans.

    As for only having little side stories, I think one reason why both Laurel and Thea seem to circulate somewhere in the periphery of the main action is because they are two major characters who don't know about Ollie's secret identity and who therefore are somewhat cut off from the crimefighting A-story. When they have been let in on the secret (which I hope won't take too long!), their stories will be more tightly aligned with Oliver's. The character who has suffered the most when it comes to lack of an independent storyline and screen time is IMHO Thea, who in some eps didn't even have a speaking part. That is why I'm looking forward to her little (or big!) story with Slade, if only because it will bring her into the thick of the action.
    I think Guggenheim himself recently made statements that back up what evaba said here. Those who are not 'in the know' about Oliver's secret or have no relationship with the Arrow are relegated to, for lack of a better term, less-important storylines. Or at least, that's how they appear to us because, regardless of the aim for mainstream viewership, one can presume that many Arrow fans are either comic book fans, or have at least an interest in comic book based films/TV. Guggenheim said recently that when they're really not worried about keeping Oliver's secret from the series regulars since it brings them into the thick of the action when they do know. Moira is brought into it by association with Slade, and Thea has unfortunately fallen victim to that as well. In all honesty, I expect Laurel to find out if not next episode, then in episode 19. If they keep it from her for another season, then let's face it: she won't have a very big impact unless she's the Arrow contact in the D.A.'s office.

    As for Thea: it looks like she's going to be in Slade's company for more than one episode if the Ep. 19 description is concerned.

    A unique twist for the Canary character is if they split the 'personality' so to speak between Sara and Laurel. Have Laurel handle the side of the Canary that thirsts for justice, and Sara handles the butt-kicking aspect. I was disappointed that Laurel didn't have too much skill in fighting despite her supposedly having self defense classes. She has fingers; poke the guy in the eye to distract him, then kick him in the privates. Even a basic college course of self-defense would suggest that, much less whoever Quentin Lance would get to train his daughter(s) in self-defense. So unless they do bring in Wildcat as a possible AA sponsor who helps Laurel, I'm at a loss to figure out how she becomes a kick-butt character. But then, this is a series about journeys. Oliver gets two journeys told: from spoiled frat boy to The Hood, and from The Hood to Green Arrow. Roy gets the journey from street thug to Red Arrow/Arsenal. Thea, depending on her fate, has the journey to possibly becoming Speedy. I suspect Moira is unlikely to survive the series. Quentin has the journey from being a by-the-book cop who doesn't believe in going outside the law to find justice to being a Comissioner Gordon-like figure. Diggle, from private security to partner in vigilante activities. Felicity, from IT girl comfortable with computers only to sassy Executive Assistant/Vigilante Partner. Sara's journey has gone, admittedly unseen, from likely sorority girl to assassin, and she is now working to leave the assassination instincts behind.

    I do want Laurel to have a big role, to be more than 'window dressing' or whatever she is. But for that to happen, she needs to 1. find out Oliver's secret, and 2. Move away from 'basic self defense' and find a way to train to be an elite fighter. Because right now, she's not. Plain and simple. They've said that Laurel will become BC later than you'd expect, but sooner than you'd hope. That means it could be either Season 3 or 4, since Season 5 is the most people hope.

    A possible trainer for Laurel, and to fit in with the tease of "Oliver is not the first vigilante": I've heard Kate Spencer is Manhunter. What if we learn she was an original Starling City vigilante (or a vigilante in another city before coming to Starling), and she gives Laurel the training now that Laurel's 'impressed' her with her willingness to go outside the law?

  8. #38
    @evaba : I am convinced that Laurel will know Oliver's secret. And since Stephen said someone important will find out (and 2x19 Synopsis is proving it). I'm not worried.
    And she'll be even more involved in main storylines. I think Laurel might become Black Canary by the end of season 3, early season 4. I think Slade might be her trainer. Honestly, I would be bummed to see him dying after 2 seasons (I do not want it to happen) and it'll give him more grey background a bit like Deadshot.

  9. #39
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    The Pro Chlois side set itself basically up for a huge disappointment basing their opinion of the direction of the show on something that never was going to happen
    Never say never. Turns out it wasn't such a crazy notion. Allison Mack has recently been saying at conventions that yes, the show runners did actually pull her aside and tell her they'd like Chloe's endgame to be revealed as Lois Lane. That the show runners went another way is one thing, but to say it was never going to happen, well, had DC not opened up their treasure chest unexpectedly at the end of season three and give permission for Lois Lane to overtly be used in Smallville, AlMiles just might have continued to build up "Chlois" until they got to do their intended reveal. Blows ones mind, doesn't it.

    I think Slade might be her trainer. Honestly, I would be bummed to see him dying after 2 seasons (I do not want it to happen) and it'll give him more grey
    I suppose if a cure to the Mirakuru (sp?) was found and Slade regained his sanity, he could be redeemed, but otherwise I have a hard time buying into Slade suddenly offering some friendly training to anyone really. I adore the actor and think he could pull it off, I just don't see Deathstroke going soft like that after his vow to destroy everything Oliver cared about.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Never say never. Turns out it wasn't such a crazy notion. Allison Mack has recently been saying at conventions that yes, the show runners did actually pull her aside and tell her they'd like Chloe's endgame to be revealed as Lois Lane. That the show runners went another way is one thing, but to say it was never going to happen, well, had DC not opened up their treasure chest unexpectedly at the end of season three and give permission for Lois Lane to overtly be used in Smallville, AlMiles just might have continued to build up "Chlois" until they got to do their intended reveal. Blows ones mind, doesn't it.
    Unless Al/Miles come out and say they were planning to do that I wouldn't put much stock into what AM has to say. I am guessing the subject at some point got brought up and discussed because some fans sent were vocal asking questions about it, but it didn't go beyond that(just like I would assume on arrow it has been discussed at some point about having Felicity or Sara be endgame in theory). Simple fact is DC allowing Lois Lane on the show should have made it more likely Chlois would happen if that was the show's intention since they now had the right to use the character(see Adam Knight/Batman which wasn't allowed due to not having the rights to the character) . Like any story about stuff that happened 10+ years ago I am guessing little facts get forgotten or changed a bit to get what we get today(in this case AM talking about how it was mentioned to her way back when)

    A simple example of a story getting changed over time would be they could have sit her down at the start of the series and say hey your sort of going to be a Lois Lane type character(which doesn't mean she is Lois Lane, since Lana from the comics would be considered a "Lois Lane type" character) and over time she hears so many people say she is Lois Lane she just morphs the original statement into the producers wanted her to become Lois Lane(not on purpose, but just through little things changing the original story over time). Another way the story could morph into the she was going to be Lois is if the producers got alot of people saying she should be Lois so they sat her down and said hey imagine if we did this, so over time she forgets the part of them saying "imagine" and just remembers the part "if we did this". I am guessing their is many storylines the producers imagined up for a lot of character that never seen the light of day, and many times they probably bounced it off the actors who played those characters. So no it doesn't really blow my mind that the subject would have been brought up in theory(and theory only) given how vocal some of the fanbase who wanted it. It would blow my mind if they completely ignored the subject to be honest because at some point you have to discuss what the fan base wants and doesn't want and if going with those fans will be good or bad for the overall product.

    As for the crazy part, I think while the idea before Lois showed up was an unlikely but possible, the more and more Lois moved towards being Lois and Chloe developed her hero helper personality in those seasons that really isn't a Lois thing, people still kept expectations based on their view of what they wanted and how they felt about the characters as if everybody should somehow share that vision.
    Last edited by Supsfan; 03-31-2014 at 03:29 AM.

  11. #41
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    It was a lovely vision. I thought for many years I was watching a much better show, one with depth and nuance and layers and a thought out vision. My bad. ;p

    Arrow is a show that I think the show runners put more thought into (AlMiles admitted they'd do season ending cliffhangers with no idea how to resolve them) but also a show that is still at the same time figuring out what they want to show. I really don't know TPTB's intentions toward Laurel's character but I do feel confident that it has changed over the course of the series.

  12. #42
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    You have to remember,, in the show she is going through a battle with prescription drugs and alcholism, which she wasnt facing in season 1. The actress may have lost weight on purpose to fit with the role. Laurel Lance is an amazing character! She is very strong. Try putting yourself in her shoes; her ex-boyfriend died and sister died, her mom leaves her, her dad becomes an alcoholic (all while trying not be angry that her boyfriend cheated on her with her own sister and coping with their deaths all together) her ex-boyfriend came back to life, she's been kidnapped on a few occasions and nearly killed a few times too, her new boyfriend dies, she thinks it's her fault, she becomes an alcoholic, she loses her job, her sister comes back to life and starts sleeping with her ex-boyfriend (again)....


    CUT HER SOME SLACK

    Laurel's story is one of the most unappreciated story in the show! She has gone through trials just as Oliver and Sara.

  13. #43
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Laurel's story is one of the most unappreciated story in the show! She has gone through trials just as Oliver and Sara.
    I don't question that Laurel has gone through some tough stuff, it's just that what she has gone through completely pales next to what Oliver and Sara have suffered. She has had trials, but they are not on the same scale. They don't have to be for them to have been meaningful to Laurel, but I find it absurd for the show or show runners to try and compare what Laurel has faced with Oliver and Sara's journeys.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I don't question that Laurel has gone through some tough stuff, it's just that what she has gone through completely pales next to what Oliver and Sara have suffered. She has had trials, but they are not on the same scale. They don't have to be for them to have been meaningful to Laurel, but I find it absurd for the show or show runners to try and compare what Laurel has faced with Oliver and Sara's journeys.
    Television writers have a nagging habit of drawing parallels between characters as a source of character development. On ordinary dramas and sitcoms it works because most characters are coming from the same point of reference. In superhero shows it gets a little annoying for the exact reason you point out above.

    But writers also try to use characters to identify with the audience. I think the writers are using Laurel's character, even her father's, to relate to the audience, to show us real problems that we deal with too.

    With better writing you wouldn't need to explore the ordinary problems of supporting characters because the writers do a good job of developing the superhero's super-problems in ways that are relatable to our own mundane issues. It's interesting that they chose to make Laurel an alcoholic, because the double-life theme of the superhero genre can often be a metaphor for issues such as addiction. It's all about redemption and becoming something better.

    It's easy to get wrapped up in the butt kicking and romantic entanglements, but good writing often goes much deeper than the literal subject matter. Good character development can give us a superhero that's more than a vigilante, but a metaphor for conquering our own problems.

    Personally, even though Laurel's problems pale in comparison to Ollie's and Sara's, I think her point of reference for those issues is much better developed than Sara's. It's kind of silly to compare alcoholism to five years of he11, but I wince every time Sara starts going into her "I'm so damaged" monologues.

  15. #45
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    ^Great post, Stardelphia

    I think you made a pretty sensible point about the showrunners wanting their characters to feel more accessible to their audience.

    Laurel's spiralling down into addiction, with all that would entail (denial, alienating loved ones, negative impact on professional life, etc.), was their attempt to look underneath the surface of Laurel Lance. And I never got the sense that Laurel was being made a victim -- in S2, with self-inflicted wounds mostly -- without some purpose behind it.

    Again, compared to how SV often misused melodrama in place of good character development, Arrow has more often than not steered clear of some of the sappier elements we'd expect on a CW show. Or at least made the attempt to handle it better aka not making it come off like a couple's spat at the high school cafeteria (an exception to this could be Thea and Roy ). I consider it a blessing/relief that Amell hasn't seen a single episode of SV.

    Fans can quibble about how successful or not Laurel's addiction story arc was, but it doesn't invalidate the journey her character did have.

    Her arc seemed to go on a few episodes too long, but on the whole it was meant to be her own redemption story. She needed to go through some crucible to make her question/challenge her previous notions of right and wrong, which had been shaken after Tommy's death. And by no means should we think that her trials are now over, any more so than Ollie or Sara's would be.

    Ollie is still earning the right to bear the name Green Arrow ie. the hero who gets to stand side-by-side with Superman, Batman, Green Lantern. etc. He's not there yet.

    Sara may have been trained by the LoA and taken up the vigilante cause, and while this may seem like she's ahead of some fan-driven race to "be" BC (at least on the street-fighting front), earning the right be the Black Canary of legend by series end -- one who Superman and Batman will one day trust as a colleague -- is more of a marathon than a sprint.

    Laurel falling into addiction and eventual recovery is but one leg of this very long race. And it's her own doubts/failings that she is racing to stay ahead of, not necessarily Sara.

    Arrow was always about finding the humanity within the hero (and in some cases, the loss of it in its villains). While Ollie had a harrowing time on the island and Sara was (initially) forged into a heartless weapon of the LoA, this doesn't mean that Laurel's own "island-less" crucible somehow disqualifies her from assuming the BC mantle one day.

    They've all had different paths and, if the writers handle it carefully, they will be spending the series unearthing the humanity behind each individual's brand of heroism.

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