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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloisornothing View Post
    Honestly, when I see some comments saying "Laurel is boring, the actress is boring....please kill her already...Sara needs to stay, she's so interesting" well, their arguments are very very thin and not justified! I enjoyed how she was upset towards Sara and she has every single right to be upset. Writers are making us believing that Laurel is the witch and Sara the poor little princess and so on but IMO, they are already putting Laurel into her own island. And when I saw "but you don't know what happened to Sara on the island, she went through a lot much more than Laurel, she is canon Black Canary" on comments -> facepalm
    Look, it's not only the fans... I get the impression that there is a lot of retconning going on from the showrunners and the actors as well, which triggers the suspicion that the showrunners are actually planning to make Sara the show's real Black Canary. Caity Lotz have been saying things in interviews which sound odd if she isn't supposed to take on the mantle of B.C. Look at this quote, for example:

    Oh yeah, DC sent me a bunch of "Green Arrow" and "Black Canary" comics, and also "Birds of Prey" comics. I checked those out and gleaned what she was all about. I didn't put pressure on myself to know the whole history of the character, but I did want to understand her emotional history. I did want to make sure I represented her strength. I didn't want to be a fake superhero, a girl who's not tough but she's still running around with her staff. I really wanted her to be strong. That was the thing I wanted to capture: strong and capable.
    She also has a very different view on the recent Oliver/Sara hook up than many of my female "Arrow" fan cyberbuddies:

    There’s some fun stuff planned with Felicity’s character. I think it is a bit of a transition for Felicity to have Sara being in Ollie’s life and Ollie having “this girl.” It changes the dynamic between Oliver and Sara because they finally have someone that really understands what they’ve been through together. But there is still a lot of external things that make that difficult.With Laurel, it is a little messed up — you can only imagine how difficult that would be to see that happen. And I understand how she would be not so happy about it.
    At the same time, for Oliver and Sara, they have been denied so much happiness in their life and have given up so much for everyone else. They’ve never really been able to have love. I think for them to get this kind of chance, both characters really do deserve it. Even with all the drama it might brin .
    Caity Lotz doesn't seem to think that Sara and Oliver did anything wrong when they had sex in the "Arrowcave" and in a sense they didn't, since Oliver and Laurel are not currently in a relationship. However, to me it looks like they're making the same mistakes all over again, and inevitably hurting a person they both claim they care for (S1 Oliver to Laurel: "You mean more to me than anyone"). When I remember scenes and lines like these, I can't help but feel that season two Oliver has been subjected to some amnesia-inducing kryptonite, because he seems to be a totally different person from the Oliver who declared his undying love for Laurel!

    From what I know, when actors do interviews everything they say has to be approved by the showrunners, which means that Sara is currently the show's Black Canary and Oliver's partner in love as well. Now, we don't know how long this will last, and given that the TPTB love to provoke Internet speculation and buzz they are not going to tell us whether this is a long-term plan or a temporary situation until the story gets to the point where they have to.

    However, if Sara become the show's permanent B.C. it will be something of a disappointment to me. The way I see it her origin story is just a replica of Oliver's, and it feels a bit like "been there, done that"...she spends five years of incredible hardships on the Island and in the League of Assassins, where she learns how to kill, just like Oliver. She returns to Starling city as a changed woman and decides to become a vigilante (apparently Sara will join the "Arrowcave" team), while trying to readjust and rekindle her relationship with her family (sleeping with Oliver was a pretty lousy start, but anyway...), just like Oliver etc. etc. I know that Sara has many fans, but to me she and her story just aren't interesting enough....and TBH, I don't think that Caity is very convincing in her role. She is very athletic and has some really cool fighting moves, but when she is not doing kick-ass action scenes she is not able to make me believe that she is a trained killer who has been so hardened and scarred by life that she is almost incapable of feeling any bodily pain. In fact, she seems just like any other girl in Starling city, maybe because Caity has an almost childlike face and a kind of "breathy" way of delivering her lines...

    I don't like to discuss actors and their skills, because we're really talking about subjective impressions that may vary from viewer to viewer. So, I can only speak for myself...I don't think Caity Lotz has the acting chops to carry a major storyline (I mean, the B.C is the second-billed character on the show). She may look cool in the action-sequences, but that is IMHO not enough to portray the Black Canary (most of these scenes are done by stunt doubles anyway). If you look at Stephen's storylines the kick-ass/action sequences only take up a few minutes of his sceen time in every episode. The remaining screen time is mostly taken up by character-driven scenes where he has to interact with (and react emotionally to) the other major characters. From what I've seen of Caity her range is simply too limited to carry such a load. That's my personal opinion, however, and I know that there are posters here who would say the same thing about Katie Cassidy, so it's not meant to be taken as an argument against Caity Lotz. I'm just saying that I PERSONALLY wouldn't enjoy the show as much as I do now if the Black Canary was portrayed by Caity. Once Laurel stops being an emotional wreck and decides to fight against her demons rather than just giving in to them, I would like to see her go through the proper mental and physical training to become the Black Canary. I'm prepared to wait until the next season to see her do that.
    Last edited by evaba; 02-11-2014 at 03:27 PM.

  2. #17
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    I have nothing against the actress but based on the first nine episodes this season. As Blast Radius won't be on till next week for me. So based on those nine episodes Laurel just didn't seem to be very likeable or useful to the story that much and for me anyway seemed to be the weakest character and at this point I don't see her as a believable Black Canary personally speaking.

    Again nothing against the actress as I liked the character for the most part in season one just so far not so much in season two. From what I've heard from the reviews of the episodes since the midseason breaks it sounds like they're at least making her more useful as far as the story goes.

    Just my two cents.

  3. #18
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    I enjoyed the character of Laurel in the first season, and have even found enjoyable moments here in Season 2. But the thing for me is story. Yes, Laurel has had some serious issues on the emotional side of things. There's no disputing that fact. I'm going to line up the Lance sisters and Oliver again in this thread, but on the 'trials/hardhips' line up, based on what we know thus far.

    Laurel:
    - Her boyfriend cheats on her with her sister, who has had a long-time crush on her boyfriend in the first place; the first moment she realizes this is when Moira comes and tells her and Quentin that Sara was on the Gambit.
    - For a person who was an emotional mess, she was remarkably self-controlled when Oliver called at the Island Tower in 1x14; she was attending law school and everything. Kind of off to me now that we've seen her in the recent aftermath of the Gambit's sinking.
    - Her wavering emotions in regards to her relationships with both Tommy and Ollie caused a lot of tension in those relationships, though Ollie did a lot of 'backing away' to make it easier for her up until Episode 21.
    - The death of Tommy. The scene decisions for the final cut delivered an impression of 'she cares more about paperwork than people', since most of those clients were trying to get out of the Glades as well. Added to both her father and Ollie (in the final cut of the episode) telling her to get out, it made the character less-attractive, despite the deleted scenes available on the DVD set giving better insight. My opinion: they should have kept the original "on the phone scene" but they had to go for the dramatic "hero walks to certain death" scene.
    - Over the months between the Undertaking and Oliver's return, Laurel becomes part of the D.A.'s office and has an (at the time) mild alcohol problem which escalates. One can figure that the League of Assassins was dosing Laurel with mild doses of the snake venom from 2x05 onward to draw Sara back. So Laurel has been targeted thanks to her sister.
    - A faked overdose thanks to the snake venom, courtesy of the League.
    - Put in danger again, though this time for a good reason: attempting to uncover the truth about Blood.

    Sara:
    - Nearly died when the Gambit went down. Spent a year on the Amazo, her safety only assured by Professor Ivo.
    - Apparently "died" on the freighter at some point in Oliver's second year on the Island.
    - Saved by Nyssa Raatko. Trained by the League of Asassins. Entered a relationship with Nyssa.
    - Became disillusioned with the League after an assassination mission.
    - Learned of the Undertaking and returned to Starling to keep her family safe.
    - Fought alongside Oliver in Starling for a time before leaving to draw the League away from her family (drawing the danger to herself, in essence).
    - Returned to Starling for a (possibly) final showdown with the League and her now-former lover.

    Oliver:
    - Nearly died when the Gambit went down. Saw his father kill himself before arriving on Lian Yu.
    - Was forced to kill a bird to survive, which was clearly not something he was prepared to do. One could say Pre-Island Oliver was much more soft-hearted.
    - Tortured by Fyers and Wintergreen.
    - Endured brutal training from Slade Wilson.
    - Helped save Shado.
    - Forged into a warrior by combat with Fyers.
    - Killed Fyers, his only way home, in order to save Shado.
    - Attempted to save Sara, despite her betrayals of him, with the result being Shado's death.
    - Eventually fights and supposedly kills Slade, possibly after seeing Sara 'die' since she's asking about Slade at the club.
    - Returns to Starling, becomes the Hood.
    - Fails to stop the Undertaking at the cost of 503 people, including his best friend in life, Thomas Merlyn.
    - After his return, his sister is kidnapped and he takes up the bow again.
    - Works on becoming a hero rather than a killer; has a setback with the Count.

    Hmm... sorry, but storywise, Sara is still closer to Oliver as being a 'match'. As I said in the other thread where I did this 'comparison' thing, opposites attract is the least likely relationship to work long term. Sara and Oliver not only have history (we don't know if they get it on on the Island again), but they also have experiences that tie them together due to the similarities.

    That said, the poor writing for Laurel's character stabs me in the heart because not only am I a fan of Katie Cassidy, but I hate poor storytelling. And in a dark heroic drama, every character that's a primary one should have an excellent story arc. Malcolm was only a guest star but had a storyline on par with his son's; but Sara's storyline this season is superior to her sister's, which again, I don't like.

  4. #19
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    I think the biggest issue is that the writers keep putting her in a bad position. How are we supposed to warm to her when she is portrayed like, for lack of a better term, a complete b!tch? She is constantly being put in positions where she is directly opposing characters that people love. Her prosecuting Moira is one of the most obvious. Quentin is getting more popular, and she seems to be more confrontational with him each week, she blamed the Arrow for Tommy's death when (as she come to realise), it was her own fault for going to CNRI when completely unnecessary. Her pointing out the irony of Thea telling her she'd had too much to drink when Thea really does seem to have turned her life around. She even started taking little pot shots at Felicity in "Tremors". Then there was the little tantrum she had at the end of last weeks episode towards Sara.

    I really hope the writers have something more long term planned for her, hopefully she has hit rock bottom and this is where they start building her back up into a likeable character, otherwise I think it will get to a point where it is too late and she is beyond redemption.

    Also, JDBentz, you missed the Dollmaker episode where she was abducted and almost killed, but you're 100% correct on everything else.
    Last edited by IAmTheArrow; 02-13-2014 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bychance View Post
    She's the Lana of Arrow.

    I don't hate her personally, but I think the reason for the dislike is that her character isn't interesting and Cassidy's acting isn't varied.
    Shes the opposite of Lana IMO. Lana was perfect and she became a b.i.t.c.h however Laurel was a ...... And now she's becoming better.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmTheArrow View Post
    I think the biggest issue is that the writers keep putting her in a bad position. How are we supposed to warm to her when she is portrayed like, for lack of a better term, a complete b!tch? She is constantly being put in positions where she is directly opposing characters that people love. Her prosecuting Moira is one of the most obvious. Quentin is getting more popular, and she seems to be more confrontational with him each week, she blamed the Arrow for Tommy's death when (as she come to realise), it was her own fault for going to CNRI when completely unnecessary. Her pointing out the irony of Thea telling her she'd had too much to drink when Thea really does seem to have turned her life around. She even started taking little pot shots at Felicity in "Tremors". Then there was the little tantrum she had at the end of last weeks episode towards Sara.

    I really hope the writers have something more long term planned for her, hopefully she has hit rock bottom and this is where they start building her back up into a likeable character, otherwise I think it will get to a point where it is too late and she is beyond redemption.

    Also, JDBentz, you missed the Dollmaker episode where she was abducted and almost killed, but you're 100% correct on everything else.
    I tend to miss at least one thing.... and I always seem to consider the Doll Maker thing more of a 'Quentin tribulation' than a Laurel one.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    I tend to miss at least one thing.... and I always seem to consider the Doll Maker thing more of a 'Quentin tribulation' than a Laurel one.
    I'd give her this one too, she did almost have some sort of polymer poured down her throat, Quentin had to watch, but it wasn't going to be him drinking the stuff

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmTheArrow View Post
    I'd give her this one too, she did almost have some sort of polymer poured down her throat, Quentin had to watch, but it wasn't going to be him drinking the stuff
    Yeah. It's more of a Quentin and Laurel bit. Her danger was the physical one while the Dollmaker was using the possible death of his remaining daughter (as he thought at the time) to 'destroy Quentin's soul'.

  9. #24
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    I think one of the reasons that I don't like Laurel is when she is not in an episode, I never miss her and often when she is in the episode, half the time it seems clear that she doesn't belong (like when she was giving relationship advice to Oliver and Sara - at a bar no less- no one really needed to talk to either Sara or Oliver. Oliver just had to come to the realization that he needed help) and the other half I'm wondering why I have to watch her take up screen time when very little of anything she does actually impacts Oliver's story.

    I just feel like her character never really worked in season one and then she was hardly around in the first half of season 2 when I felt the show was really hitting all the right spots in terms of story telling and action and then we had weeks and weeks of pointless soap opera-ish drama that has led us right back to square one in regards to Laurel. I just honestly don't see the point of her character on the show. I don't think she's good for Oliver (or Oliver good for her) I don't think she's been shown to have the skill set or metal inclination to take up dressing in leather and going after the bad guys (and I don't think this show needs another masked super hero, it's supposed to be Oliver's show first.)

    So if she's not suited for love interest or superhero, what does that leave her? I cant' think an answer, so I wish the show would write the character off. Not kill, cause I'm sick of anyone dying to fuel more pain for the other characters, it's an overused shortcut. As long as she stays on the show, I have to worry that all the other elements that I am enjoying are going to be thrown away down the line in some misbegotten attempt to prop up a non-functioning character and yes, that makes me testy toward the character.

    I just wish the show runners would flat out state their intensions in regards to Laurel. If she wasn't going to be used to take over another functioning character's life, I could probably learn to relax and cut her some slack, but as it is, her existence is both dull IMO on screen but a constant downer for the rest of the show.

    Based on that, how can I like Laurel???

    As for that actress, I don't love what I've seen of her work on Arrow, (she has made some odd acting choices since the beginning - but she's no worse than Caity Lotz (but Lotz has IMO better writing and a more compelling chemistry with the lead) I actually started to worry about KC health for a while there but I don't think personal attacks toward an actress should be allowed to happen.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by deathstroke79 View Post
    Shes the opposite of Lana IMO. Lana was perfect and she became a b.i.t.c.h however Laurel was a ...... And now she's becoming better.
    Of course, she's the opposite of Lana! Lana was the reason Clark refused to embrace his destiny. Laurel is better written than Sara in my opinion. Sara comeback from the dead was so predictable, her so-called bond with Oliver, her morals...

    Since this season 2, some people refuse to believe that Dinah Laurel Lance is Black Canary from the comics on Arrow, not Sara. Sara is just a prototype, her writing is so not-compelling comparing to Laurel. And this Laurel hatred is only justified by "so thin", "she needs to eat a sandwich", "she's annoying"? Come on!

    Laurel transformation as future Black Canary is as grounded and compelling as Oliver for the Green Arrow! Oliver started as a partyboy, billionnaire, selfish, certainly not mature in his decisions, especially with women. Laurel's journey is just different, she helps people in her own way and now, like Oliver and Helena (loved Laurel/Helena interactions and it's very promising for the next seasons!), it's not the same darkness as everyone-wants-her-as-the-Only-One-Black-Canary or as Oliver's and right now, writers are doing an awesome job and I can't wait to see her as Black Canary.

    Laurel had lost almost everything while she's a person with a big heart who want to help the others, Oliver never cared about her since Tommy's death, nobody cared for her ! But I did care for her. Writers broke her down to rebuild her, make her a stronger character and it works! I'm not saying it because I'm a Katie Cassidy fan, but because I'm really happy what writers are doing with her right now, giving her more depth, a grey side (if it was a copy/paste from Sara or something more odd, I wouldn't like it) and above all her strength back and no, she's not the damsel in distress on the show!

    Saying that Laurel is just a love interest for the superhero is just insulting her, nothing more nothing less. She is more than that some people believe it, some people refuse to believe it because of "not worthy being Black Canary", "she's boring"... poor arguments.

    And... she allows Oliver being a better person, make the right decisions.

  11. #26
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    I have to disagree. I think Laurel is the ultimate damsel in distress, the kind that deliberately puts herself in peril in a myopic attempt to "help" when it is clear she is not equipped to handle the situation and only ends up making things more complicated and problematic by becoming a pawn that Helena can use to force the real heroes to do her bidding.

    As to being someone that makes Oliver a better person and make better decisions, I don't see that either. It took Tommy's death to make Oliver question his stance on killing. Laurel had nothing to do with it. Laurel has proved time and again to make Oliver make bad decisions (like abandoning Diggle last year when he needed him). Oliver's big epiphany about Laurel is that she does make him not make clear choices and he disavowed her influence over him again.

  12. #27
    Laurel IS Not the Damsel in distress (but other girls on the show are!)! Every person that want to help the others end up being hurt, I don't know if Oliver's intervention (if Laurel had stayed out of this) would have helped the hostages situation. Laurel was the only civilian standing against Helena, tried to save the hostages and tried to talk to her. And if Laurel wasn't there, Helena would have been killed by Canary. Putting herself in a dangerous situation to help the others, it's heroism and honestly, Sara and Oliver shouldn't give her moral lessons about putting her life in danger. Laurel has overcome all her tough time and she's getting her life back on track. She's a strong woman can make her on own decisions, including putting her life in danger, even to save the others.

    All I can read mostly all the time is bad faith about Laurel actions.

    And again : Laurel making Oliver a good person, making good decisions. Example : Laurel's devotion for the others (her speech to the Hood about helping the others versus Oliver selfishness). Even Oliver himself said in Pilot that Laurel saw the best in him.

  13. #28
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Laurel IS Not the Damsel in distress (but other girls on the show are!)! Every person that want to help the others end up being hurt
    Perhaps you could tell me what your understanding of a damsel in distress is? My understanding is a character whose purpose in the plot is to get saved. Sure everyone involved in the hero biz gets hurt sometimes and might need someone to save them, (like if the Arrow saves Canary or both step in to save Quentin) but I don't think that is the same circumstance for Laurel. Yes, she wanted to help the people, but her attempts to help only got in the way which is exactly why she is in my opinion the worst kind of damsel in distress, since she caused her own problem with her hubris.

    I don't know if Oliver's intervention (if Laurel had stayed out of this) would have helped the hostages situation.
    All I know is because Laurel wouldn't listen to reason, she gave Helena the exact leverage she needed to get to her father. In order to save Laurel we saw Oliver, Sara, and Quentin offer up Bertinelli in trade and saw Quentin reverse his advice to Sara about going easy on the bad guys. If Laurel hadn't been involved, then Sara would have already been holding back and Laurel would never have had a reason to shout out "you're not a killer".

    Let me take a step back there and just say how terrible a line this is. It makes no sense in the context of Laurel's brief association with Canary. She doesn't know this person or what motivates her. You are not a killer implies that she knows this person, if the show had just let Laurel recognize her sister while wearing a mask then the line would work, but no, secret identity and all that crap. I could have been ok with a simple "Don't kill her" or "you're better than she is" but "You're not a killer" totally broke my suspension of disbelief. Anyway, back to the subject.

    Putting herself in a dangerous situation to help the others, it's heroism and honestly, Sara and Oliver shouldn't give her moral lessons about putting her life in danger. Laurel has overcome all her tough time and she's getting her life back on track. She's a strong woman can make her on own decisions, including putting her life in danger, even to save the others.
    Laurel is just barely holding it together. She is in the process of TRYING to get her life back together. She's going to two AA meetings a day and would have had a relapse had Sara not talked her out of it. She is not tough or strong by any measure I can think of. I'm not saying she hasn't had a lot of bad things happen to her, but she's only just putting the pieces of her emotional and secular life back in order. I'm sure her intensions were noble, but she put all the hostages lives at risk by not letting those with real skill go in on their own. She is the reason that two cops got knocked out and her dad had to break the law and really why Bertinelli was out in the open where he got killed in the crossfire. Laurel's "heroic" intentions without the skills to back them up got the man killed. No love lost there since the man was an immoral goon but still.

    Even Oliver himself said in Pilot that Laurel saw the best in him.
    But does she bring out the best in him?? I just don't see it.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 03-29-2014 at 12:41 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I just feel like her character never really worked in season one and then she was hardly around in the first half of season 2 when I felt the show was really hitting all the right spots in terms of story telling and action and then we had weeks and weeks of pointless soap opera-ish drama that has led us right back to square one in regards to Laurel. I just honestly don't see the point of her character on the show.
    Sadly shows like this(especially ones on the CW) will always have a "love interest" character full of stuff I rather not watch that comes off soap opera'ish. If it wasn't Laural in these plotlines it will be some other female character occupying these spots(or soap opera'ish style storylines). As a viewer I fully expect this kind of stuff out of a CW show based on years of experience of the CW shows going to the bottom of the barrel to create relationship drama.

    Somebody on last page said Laurel is the Lana Lang of Arrow, to which i would say Laurel has a far ways to get as annoying as Lana ever was on Smallville. Maybe Laurel will in the future get as bad as Lana(Lana didn't start annoying me on Smallville till Season 3 for instance) but viewing her storylines with limited expectations given her purpose on the show, I don't think the character is that bad(yet).

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think those who don't like Laurel in the fandom can be separated between those who just don't like Laurel not based on anything character or story related (including those who take irrelevant appearance/looks potshots), and those who don't like her based on story or character issues (including those who are into 'ships and dislike or even reject the "inevitability" factor with Ollie and Laurel as an item, or those who don't support Laurel's Black Canary destiny).
    I would argue many of the people taking potshots at her looks fall under not liking her storyline(ie shippers who hold a grudge against the character getting in their way). Sort of using a Smallville reference again, I seen many times all 3 actresses get attacked outside the character(looks, personality, etc) just for the sake to find something negative about the character(I never noticed much negativity directed toward Laura Vandervoort(Kara) for instance because unlike the other 3 girls she posed no threat to people's ship. While some people might come up with rational reasons for not caring for the character of Kara, it usually remained civil).
    Last edited by Supsfan; 03-29-2014 at 07:08 AM.

  15. #30
    Again : Laurel IS NOT Lana ! Arrow is NOT Smallville!

    And I still think showrunners are still making what they intended to do since the start : turning Laurel into Black Canary. And what's happening to Laurel since second half of season 2 makes me think that will be the case.

    So if you ever try to make me saying or believing that Laurel is unnecessary, doesn't bring anything to the show : You are wrong because I will always support Laurel and I always believed that bringing Dinah Laurel Lance on Arrow was for something special, not just a simple love interest.

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