Black Canary/Caity Lotz thread

[Dagenspear]

They were talking about the canon in the comic books, not the canon in the TV shows. But I can see how you were confused by that, and why they were confused by your "cheeky remark" about their fanfic.

Just chalk it up to a misunderstanding that got out of control? (shrugs)

JDBentz, when I said that, was talking about the show and so was Haggard01, and I explained that to them. Why would they insult me then when I specified that and when I didn't insult them or their work? Thank you for having some understanding on both sides either way though. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[BkWurm1]

First of all, I can't believe the same day I bragged to someone I'd quit these forums cold turkey 3 months ago is the same day that I got sucked back in. I'm weak. What can I say.

So I just couldn't resist weighing in on this. At the most basic, Laurel on Arrow left the show with the appellation of Black Canary and Sara moved on with the name White Canary (though she's not the comic one, but a brand new character). On LoT though, she's far more Sara Lance then some code name. And I'm pretty happy where her character is and I am thrilled that Caity got the this chance to be a main character rather than remain stuck as another Oliver Queen supporting character.

For that reason, I don't want her to come back to Arrow since I think any circumstance where she did, it would mean her character would be lessened in the sense that Oliver has to remain the main focus of the series. It's his story so everyone else's character has to serve his story above all. Right now, Sara isn't limited by that and I love that.

BUT in the spirit of what might have been, I've always been a supporter of the idea of Sara growing to have become the officially named Black Canary.

I also know that Dangenspear views Sara's stint as a LoA member as disqualifying. I do not. Arrow is an adaptation of the comics and I don't think Sara being part of the LoA disqualified her potential to have become the BC on Arrow anymore than Oliver's time as an assassin disqualified him from being Green Arrow. I know Dagenspear disagrees and I'm not trying to change your mind but I will explain why I disagree.

Oliver's backstory being expanded to include a lot of killing changed IMO the standards that might apply to other character's core characterizations since they are being adapted into HIS story. So while GA and BC in the comics were really big on the no killing thing, that's not the set of rules that Arrow jumps off from. In the comics the GA was pretty much kicked out of the hero club for killing ONE mad man that murdered I think millions. Here he just gets pep talks and angsts over it. It's taken him four seasons to decide that he's going to stick with being grey and killing when he feels the need. In the comics he isn't that man but the comics is something vastly different and I'm fine making the distinctions.

So from that mindset, I disagree that BC being a killer at one point breaks core characterization of the Black Canary. I know Dagenspear and I are not going to agree and I know all the reasons you think I'm wrong, but I think you are wrong to think I'm wrong and that's a fact that won't change. So, moving on...

I think for me believing that Sara would have been a better BC ultimately came down to Laurel being too far away from plausibly gaining the skills (or even wanting to become) the hero we know as the Black Canary. Even her most staunch supporters I think agree the time between her first boxing lesson and donning the mask was fast.

Personally I don't think either Laurel the Lawyer that was Ollie's doormat in the past or Sara who was willing to run off with him on a pleasure cruise behind her sister's back fit the origin, personality or core characteristics of BC from the comics. Both had a toxic romantic relationship with Ollie way before he became a hero, which doesn't fit the comics.

Neither have a mother that was a retired hero or hung around other former heroes. Neither wanted to become a cop like the 1st iteration of BC. Both had basic self defense skills. Laurel had the name but Sara had the connection to Canaries, not only having had one as a pet and having spotted one when she was lost at sea, but also actually choosing it as her code name. So really, from my perspective, both Laurel and Sara came with a name. And if purists insist that only Dinah Lance could be BC, all it would take was a reveal that Sara's middle name was also Dinah. (Hey, George Forman name all his kids George. It's plausible. )

So really, what mattered to me was more how good of a story the character could have in their journey to embody the more traditionally recognizable Black Canary and that IMO was Sara. Her becoming BC wasn't tied up in her learning to fight but in her leaning how to heal from her past and move forward. I felt that Sara had the empathy and desire already in place to dedicate her life to fighting crime but while Oliver's journey is IMO more about finding a balance between Oliver Queen and the Green Arrow and a balance between killing and no killing, I can see Sara on her way to becoming BC having to really find a way to forgive herself for her past and how to completely walk away from the killing without having to give up her need to fight for justice for others. She and Oliver shared surface similarities but they were fighting IMO different demons and needed to find different solutions. Those differences would have been enough to make their separate evolutions unique.

Laurel was sent on a brief journey to learn to fight, but I find the idea that the show could have had Sara's path to BC be an emotional journey more compelling than watching Laurel learn how to box.

Now I do have to agree that there's no reason why Sara would need to learn boxer moves from Ted Grant after being trained by the LoA but the Arrow twist would have been that he'd be the one to teach her far more important lessons. He could have been the mentor she needed to be a counter weight against Ra's teachings.

Sara desperately wanted to leave killing behind but she found that being sick of the killing wasn't enough. She really didn't know how to solve certain problems without relying on it. She needed to learn more about hope and faith and believing in the impossible than she needed to be taught a right hook.

That's the kind of storyline that I think Sara could have brought that would have been more compelling than Laurel mad and grieving...again. That was pretty much Laurel's character story every season. Year one she was forced to relive her loss when Oliver turned up alive. Year two she was mad and sad over Tommy. Three it was Sara...again. Four was still Sara.

Another advantage Arrow would have had had they made Sara the eventual official BC is they set her character up to come and go so she'd only have to be around when the story line called for her to be around. BC is a character that deserved to be Green Arrow's equal but the show isn't set up to have two leads.

Season two had its great moments but it also IMO really suffered at times as it tried to balance telling both Sara and Oliver's story. One thing it did at times is overwhelm the rest of the characters. In the back half for several episodes, Roy practically disappeared, Diggle got sidelined and Felicity was reduced to exposition.

In the case of what happened with Laurel on the team in season four, she got to do the hero walk and show up in the fight scene but otherwise the show really struggled to keep her relevant in the Arrowcave. If they'd had a reoccurring Sara rather than a regular Laurel, they could have just sent her out of town when she didn't fit the narrative rather than radically underuse her. (Or risk overusing her like I think they did with Sara at times in season two)

In the end, it's all just speculation on what could have been.

[Dagenspear]

First of all, I can't believe the same day I bragged to someone I'd quit these forums cold turkey 3 months ago is the same day that I got sucked back in. I'm weak. What can I say.

So I just couldn't resist weighing in on this. At the most basic, Laurel on Arrow left the show with the appellation of Black Canary and Sara moved on with the name White Canary (though she's not the comic one, but a brand new character). On LoT though, she's far more Sara Lance then some code name. And I'm pretty happy where her character is and I am thrilled that Caity got the this chance to be a main character rather than remain stuck as another Oliver Queen supporting character.

For that reason, I don't want her to come back to Arrow since I think any circumstance where she did, it would mean her character would be lessened in the sense that Oliver has to remain the main focus of the series. It's his story so everyone else's character has to serve his story above all. Right now, Sara isn't limited by that and I love that.

BUT in the spirit of what might have been, I've always been a supporter of the idea of Sara growing to have become the officially named Black Canary.

I also know that Dangenspear views Sara's stint as a LoA member as disqualifying. I do not. Arrow is an adaptation of the comics and I don't think Sara being part of the LoA disqualified her potential to have become the BC on Arrow anymore than Oliver's time as an assassin disqualified him from being Green Arrow. I know Dagenspear disagrees and I'm not trying to change your mind but I will explain why I disagree.

Oliver's backstory being expanded to include a lot of killing changed IMO the standards that might apply to other character's core characterizations since they are being adapted into HIS story. So while GA and BC in the comics were really big on the no killing thing, that's not the set of rules that Arrow jumps off from. In the comics the GA was pretty much kicked out of the hero club for killing ONE mad man that murdered I think millions. Here he just gets pep talks and angsts over it. It's taken him four seasons to decide that he's going to stick with being grey and killing when he feels the need. In the comics he isn't that man but the comics is something vastly different and I'm fine making the distinctions.

So from that mindset, I disagree that BC being a killer at one point breaks core characterization of the Black Canary. I know Dagenspear and I are not going to agree and I know all the reasons you think I'm wrong, but I think you are wrong to think I'm wrong and that's a fact that won't change. So, moving on...

I think for me believing that Sara would have been a better BC ultimately came down to Laurel being too far away from plausibly gaining the skills (or even wanting to become) the hero we know as the Black Canary. Even her most staunch supporters I think agree the time between her first boxing lesson and donning the mask was fast.

Personally I don't think either Laurel the Lawyer that was Ollie's doormat in the past or Sara who was willing to run off with him on a pleasure cruise behind her sister's back fit the origin, personality or core characteristics of BC from the comics. Both had a toxic romantic relationship with Ollie way before he became a hero, which doesn't fit the comics.

Neither have a mother that was a retired hero or hung around other former heroes. Neither wanted to become a cop like the 1st iteration of BC. Both had basic self defense skills. Laurel had the name but Sara had the connection to Canaries, not only having had one as a pet and having spotted one when she was lost at sea, but also actually choosing it as her code name. So really, from my perspective, both Laurel and Sara came with a name. And if purists insist that only Dinah Lance could be BC, all it would take was a reveal that Sara's middle name was also Dinah. (Hey, George Forman name all his kids George. It's plausible. )

So really, what mattered to me was more how good of a story the character could have in their journey to embody the more traditionally recognizable Black Canary and that IMO was Sara. Her becoming BC wasn't tied up in her learning to fight but in her leaning how to heal from her past and move forward. I felt that Sara had the empathy and desire already in place to dedicate her life to fighting crime but while Oliver's journey is IMO more about finding a balance between Oliver Queen and the Green Arrow and a balance between killing and no killing, I can see Sara on her way to becoming BC having to really find a way to forgive herself for her past and how to completely walk away from the killing without having to give up her need to fight for justice for others. She and Oliver shared surface similarities but they were fighting IMO different demons and needed to find different solutions. Those differences would have been enough to make their separate evolutions unique.

Laurel was sent on a brief journey to learn to fight, but I find the idea that the show could have had Sara's path to BC be an emotional journey more compelling than watching Laurel learn how to box.

Now I do have to agree that there's no reason why Sara would need to learn boxer moves from Ted Grant after being trained by the LoA but the Arrow twist would have been that he'd be the one to teach her far more important lessons. He could have been the mentor she needed to be a counter weight against Ra's teachings.

Sara desperately wanted to leave killing behind but she found that being sick of the killing wasn't enough. She really didn't know how to solve certain problems without relying on it. She needed to learn more about hope and faith and believing in the impossible than she needed to be taught a right hook.

That's the kind of storyline that I think Sara could have brought that would have been more compelling than Laurel mad and grieving...again. That was pretty much Laurel's character story every season. Year one she was forced to relive her loss when Oliver turned up alive. Year two she was mad and sad over Tommy. Three it was Sara...again. Four was still Sara.

Another advantage Arrow would have had had they made Sara the eventual official BC is they set her character up to come and go so she'd only have to be around when the story line called for her to be around. BC is a character that deserved to be Green Arrow's equal but the show isn't set up to have two leads.

Season two had its great moments but it also IMO really suffered at times as it tried to balance telling both Sara and Oliver's story. One thing it did at times is overwhelm the rest of the characters. In the back half for several episodes, Roy practically disappeared, Diggle got sidelined and Felicity was reduced to exposition.

In the case of what happened with Laurel on the team in season four, she got to do the hero walk and show up in the fight scene but otherwise the show really struggled to keep her relevant in the Arrowcave. If they'd had a reoccurring Sara rather than a regular Laurel, they could have just sent her out of town when she didn't fit the narrative rather than radically underuse her. (Or risk overusing her like I think they did with Sara at times in season two)

In the end, it's all just speculation on what could have been.

They could send Laurel out of town too, when she didn't fit the narrative, the same as every other character in the show. She could easily be a recurring. BC's first name isn't Sara, Sara isn't in the name at all and trying to shove that in after the fact would be bad writing. One character being a serial murderer doesn't justify anyoone else being that way, It's a black mark on that character. But being a serial murderer isn't the only issue at all. Altering aspects of the backstory is different than changing the backstory completely, changing the name and stripping them of their m.o.. Then you no longer have the character. A show doesn't have to have 2 leads to have 1 character be an equal to the main. Laurel's journey wasn't about fighting. And season 4 her story wasn't about Sara, same with season 1, which wasn't about her loss. Of course none of that is hugely different than Oliver dealing with his darkness every season and him reacting to the death of someone he supposedly cares about every season. A show being about a certain character doesn't mean that every character is there to serve their story. Every character is their own and should have their own story, just not be the focus of the series as a whole. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[BkWurm1]

They could send Laurel out of town too, when she didn't fit the narrative, the same as every other character in the show. She could easily be a recurring.

Here's where real life gets in the way. KC had a contract that made her a regular. They had to pay her a certain amount of money for a certain length of time and until it expired, they could either keep using her, waste money or just fire her altogether. Eventually they did end her contract.

In the season four, except for episodes that focused on her, she regularly was just sent out of the room rather than using her. Go man the hotline. Go check something out at the courts. In a cut scene, please leave the engagement party and go get ice. So from a contract standpoint, Laurel couldn't be a reoccurring character.

BC's first name isn't Sara, Sara isn't in the name at all and trying to shove that in after the fact would be bad writing

.

Actually we do not know the original Black Canary's full name. Dinah could have been her middle name or Sara could have been Sara's middle name and Dinah her first name or she could have decided to legally change it for some reason.

That I am still five years in trying to consider ways that the show could have IMO made a more compelling BC, absolutely supports that bad writing was a given and it's why I'm even considering how Sara could have made the character work better. I don't think what was done with Laurel was executed well. Ideally the show shouldn't have screwed up on the first go round, but IMO it did and something as tiny as a name reveal between a IMO working BC and a highly disappointing one is a small price to pay. I'm firmly in the "Rose by any other name would smell as sweet" camp.

One character being a serial murderer doesn't justify anyoone else being that way, It's a black mark on that character.

And here we fundamentally disagree. For one, it's not about justifying, but choosing a baseline for the characters to start off from. It's about deciding what qualifies or disqualifies someone in this universe where this story is being told from being a hero.

On Arrow Oliver, Sara and Malcolm all have been trained by the LoA and all of them have murdered and tortured and been assassins but Malcolm doesn't feel any guilt. He thinks all his actions are justified. Sara and Oliver have huge regrets and guilt and have been trying to give back and atone and find their way. In the comics and the animated films, the line between villian and hero was killing, on Arrow it's something entirely different.

So while previous incarnations of the GA and BC both in the past were strongly against killing, that is not the case on Arrow, so the BC being more on the same level morally as GA always made lots of sense to me.

But being a serial murderer isn't the only issue at all. Altering aspects of the backstory is different than changing the backstory completely, changing the name and stripping them of their m.o.. Then you no longer have the character.

This issue comes down to people having a different opinion on what essential characteristics make up the character. For me, I found the changes to Laurel's character (personality, motivations, attitude and abilities) far more problematic than the changes added to Sara's story. In either case their backstories have both been completely changed. I found Sara to more closely line up with my understanding of BC than Laurel. You have the opposite opinion. Neither of us will change our minds.

A show doesn't have to have 2 leads to have 1 character be an equal to the main.

Again, I disagree. The main character is what drives the show. Lots of shows are written with co-leads and lots of shows are ensembles with lots of characters and maybe a smaller handful of more important characters and thus the stories being told change focus a lot. Arrow is an ensemble with one lead. The show IMO only works well when all the characters' stories are meaningful to the main character. Otherwise it seems out of place or boring.

Let me use Donna and Quentin as an example. Donna and Quentin dating was interesting when it had ripple effects to Felicity and Laurel and Oliver but when it was just Donna pep talking Quentin over something that didn't connect to Oliver or his concerns, it became out of place and even confusing. Usually the show tries to make sure that everything on it moves the story ahead.

Even Donna and Noah bickering got tied back to Oliver because Curtis tried to make it analogous to Felicity and Oliver. I don't particularly think it was a good analogy but their scenes were there to move Oliver's story along, not just Donna and Noah's or even just Felicity's. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about storytelling wise.

I love Felicity on the show but I don't think her character is written equally to Oliver's nor do I expect it to be. SA's time on screen is always the lion's share. The show always makes sure that HIS viewpoint on anything - be it lying about his kid or being sad about the break up- is the one expressed clearly to the audience even at the expense of other character's characterization (like Thea suddenly being in favor of lying to hide a child's parentage).

In season three they didn't even allow Felicity to say she loved Oliver until more than 3/4's into a season that was all about Oliver being in love with her. The storyline serves Oliver first and foremost.

That's how this show is structured and I don't expect it to change but it does at times do a great disservice to the characters's whose viewpoints are not getting equal focus. It tends to encourage the audience to root more for the lead than anyone else even if he's actually in the wrong.

Take for example the reaction of a good portion of the audience in season one where despite Oliver being absolutely in the wrong for what he did to Laurel, since we had all the backstory on what he suffered and how much he regretted his behavior, it was a lot easier to just see Laurel as the bad guy or at the very least less sympathetic because the show doesn't spend equal time making her sympathetic IMO.

I felt that the iconic BC I knew needed to be given more equal attention than what Laurel was given. Sara got more attention to her back story and what shaped her than anyone else but Oliver. Oliver still being the main guy might have meant that eventually Sara would have suffered backlash like Laurel or Felicity since the show wouldn't equally showcase her viewpoint (and some of that did start happening in late season two) But maybe given the previous precedent, it would have changed the structure of the show to start regularly including her flashbacks as well (or instead once Oliver's were over).

It really is an unknown at this point but over all I stand by my statement that the BC character and the development needed to make it work - whether Laurel or Sara - needed to be given equal time or needed to be allowed to have some big leaps in development off screen since on screen they would always get shafted to an extent.

Laurel's journey wasn't about fighting.

It was muddled enough that I'm not sure what it was supposed to be about but I know it didn't hold my attention.

And season 4 her story wasn't about Sara, same with season 1, which wasn't about her loss.

Laurel's only big storyline in season four absolutely was about Sara. Finding out about the pit, digging her up, going to NP, getting Malcolm to let her use the LP, dealing with a mindless Sara, hiding it from the team, getting mad when they got mad that she did. Encouraging her to be the White Canary (technically Lot but still in the same season timeline) After all the Sara stuff Laurel didn't have a clear storyline. She was hardly used most of the time. They had to break up Felicity and Oliver and have Felicity leave the team before Laurel even got to do much talking in the Bunker. Then she died and her storyline became about how she'd still been pining for Oliver?

In season one, Laurel's story wasn't only about Sara, but her character was IMO hugely motivated by what happened when Sara ran off with her boyfriend and was lost at sea only for said boyfriend to return alive and rub her pain in her face. Yes the season had other stuff in it too but Sara's loss and betrayal played on screen in the early episodes in a huge way that shaped my impression of who Laurel was as a character at her core.

I stand by my impression that Laurel was struggling to cope with loss in every season.

Of course none of that is hugely different than Oliver dealing with his darkness every season and him reacting to the death of someone he supposedly cares about every season.

The difference IMO between how Oliver dealt with loss and how Laurel dealt with it was huge. Oliver compartmentalized while Laurel crawled into the drawer with it. Death moved Oliver to make changes in his life just like it altered Laurel's but somehow Oliver's seemed to be healthier changes and more deliberate than the ones that were wrought on Laurel.


As for Oliver and Sara, I think they were in different places when it came to dealing with their darkness in season two and I also think that different things bothered them more about their past and present so I do think they had a lot of good parallel but different stories to tell.

A show being about a certain character doesn't mean that every character is there to serve their story. Every character is their own and should have their own story, just not be the focus of the series as a whole. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Unless each character's story is somehow eventually meaningful in someway to the main character's story, it doesn't belong in the narrative. That still leaves a broad range of what the other character's are doing.

I mean, it's important to see a bit of how Curtis copes with balancing his personal life and his time helping the team because eventually his actions will lead to him becoming a bigger part of the team and Oliver is the guy in charge so that scene where Curtis went home to his husband and declared he was done playing hero is still apart of furthering Oliver's story. So was Felicity getting her PT from Curtis's husband since getting to know his character makes the risk Curtis takes on more meaningful and again, it all connects back to creating a team that Oliver will be leading.

It's why IMO Ray felt so out of place for most of season three. He wasn't tied to Oliver until waaaay too far into the season. They dropped the ball after the initial interaction between them and so it created an island on which Ray stayed until he did start interacting again with Oliver. Over on Lot, the only time I was bored with Ray was when he stopped being connected to the rest of the team. When he got stuck only with Kendra, it hurt his characterization since she too was pretty isolated from the rest of the characters and stories being told.

It's a narrative issue.

[evaba]

This is an interesting discussion, but it also seems somewhat pointless. I mean, Sara never became the Black Canary in the actual series, and the character who (according to the writers and producers and a sizeable portion of the fandom/viewers) represented the REAL Black Canary has been killed off! Furthermore, Sara went on to become the White Canary on LoT. I don't watch LoT, so I don't know how well she is written there (or if Caity Lotz does a good job portraying her). Either way you look at it, Sara is now a different fictional character from the "Arrow" Black Canary, who was always her sister Laurel Lance, no matter if some fans feel that Sara would have been a better BC.

I personally feel that Felicity Smoak is a redundant, stereotypical fan insert character who gets far too much screen time and importance. I also find that the Olicity romance (melo)drama is one of the worst written roma storylines in current television. However, that doesn't invalidate the fact that the WRITERS are treating Felicity as someone who is highly pivotal in their version of the GA mythos, as well as in Oliver's life. Furthermore, my sentiments don't invalidate the fact that the WRITERS are treating the Oliver/Felicity love affair as a crucial factor in the overall story. So, maybe it would benefit the discussions if we stopped positing our own opinions and perceptions as guidelines for what the writers and producers should have done/should do with their characters...e.g. making Sara the Black Canary? If I would have had any say on the writers' choices, I would never have made Felicity the female lead or the main love interest, but my feelings don't change the fact that she now fulfills both these roles.

As for the hypothetical discussion concerning Sara as Black Canary, I personally don't think that "Arrow" would have been any better as an adaptation of the Green Arrow comics if Sara had become the canonical Black Canary instead of Laurel. Besides, there would still be the problem of Olicity versus the canon love interest, in the sense that Canarrow would always be an option/threat to Olicity's hegemony as long as Sara's (hypothetical) version of the Black Canary was a part of the cast. I know that Sara is presented as a lesbian/bi-sexual woman (which makes her less threatening in the eyes of the Olicity shippers), but she does have a recent romantic history with Oliver, which would have challenged the idea that Felicity is the One and Only and Unsurpassable Love of Oliver's Life. The writers and producers have been very diligent in retconning away/downplaying anything that would remind the viewers that Oliver actually loved other women before he encountered the Perfect One in Felicity Smoak. Despite this, I imagine that it still would be a bit awkward having a woman with so much romantic backstory with Oliver on the team together with Felicity. Furthermore, IF Sara had become the show's Black Canary, the comic book purists might have expected/demanded that SHE would be the canonical love interest, which probably would have resulted in epic shipper wars between Oliciters and Canarrow fans.


Anyway, the way I see it these discussions are more of the Alternative Universe/"what if?" variety. "Birdie" is dead, and she will only come back in flashbacks or as Black Siren, and Sara is now another character than BC on LoT. On the other hand, Felicity will have an important and unusual storyline in the last half of the season according to the producers, so maybe she will put on some kind of mask and fight crime in a more literal fashion? I don't think she'll become the second incarnation of BC (that would be a too outrageous example of fanservice, even for the "Arrow" writers), but she might become some other masked heroine. That would actually fit her current role as the Original Character who replaced Green Arrow's canonical love interest. It would also solve the "comic book canon" problem. If Felicity becomes Quentin's surrogate daughter, and if her current hacker identity is supplemented by another, more comic-booky identity, the writers will have written "their own story", while still staying true to the idea of GA being in a partnership which involves fighting crime together with his beloved. The main difference is that his partner will now be the masked alias of the former QC tech girl Felicity Smoak.

If we leave the CW "Arrow" for a while, and look at how the GA mythos is continued in the latest incarnation of the Green Arrow comic book tradition, we'll see that neither Sara nor Felicity have any place whatsoever in Oliver's life. Instead we have a reaffirmation that the canonical Black Canary (the one who can be established as BC without resorting to AU mental gymnastics concerning the name issue etc.) is very much a part of Green Arrow's story:

http://tinyurl.com/jnpxrgt

If we consider that the comic book version of the GA mythos stays very true to the character's 70-year old history, I would say that the TV version of Green Arrow is akin to the version of the Superman mythos we would have gotten if the SV Chlark shippers had succeeded in their campaign to make Chloe usurp Lois' role in the Superman mythos (the so-called "Chlois" theory). In the current television version of Green Arrow the blonde hacker/hero side-kick is now GA's canonical love interest, while Laurel/BC has been killed off (a fate that many Chlark fans actually predicted for Lois Lane!). Or, one might say that the CW television version of the GA comics resembles the Chloe/Oliver romance on "Smallville" (which never influenced the actual GA comics, just like Olicity has no bearing on the current GA comics): Ollie marries Chloe and even has a child with him (maybe that's why Olicity fans are now demanding "Olicity babies" from the producers/writers?).

In general, I would say that the CW "Arrow" is an AU version of the GA comics, where all the elements that represent the core of the comic book GA story (e.g. the REAL "Original Team" of GA, BC, Speedy, Connor and Roy Harper or the GA/BC love story) have been purged in order to make two invented-for-the-show characters (Diggle and Felicity) appear as the "heart and soul" (the #OTA that oliciters keep harping on in the producers' mentions) of "Arrow"....... and where Black Canary has been replaced by Felicity in order to fulfill the dreams and fantasies of a very social media active shipper fandom. Whether this replacement makes for good or quality television remains to be seen. If you look at general fandom sentiments (rather than focusing on the sentiments of the oliciter fandom), I would say that seasons three and four have been a major disappointment, not only for the "comic book F-boys", but for those viewers who enjoy watching a well-made and coherent story.

[Dagenspear]

Here's where real life gets in the way. KC had a contract that made her a regular. They had to pay her a certain amount of money for a certain length of time and until it expired, they could either keep using her, waste money or just fire her altogether. Eventually they did end her contract.

In the season four, except for episodes that focused on her, she regularly was just sent out of the room rather than using her. Go man the hotline. Go check something out at the courts. In a cut scene, please leave the engagement party and go get ice. So from a contract standpoint, Laurel couldn't be a reoccurring character.

What they're doing now could have easily been what they could have done this season, because this season was the only time it was needed.

Actually we do not know the original Black Canary's full name. Dinah could have been her middle name or Sara could have been Sara's middle name and Dinah her first name or she could have decided to legally change it for some reason.

That I am still five years in trying to consider ways that the show could have IMO made a more compelling BC, absolutely supports that bad writing was a given and it's why I'm even considering how Sara could have made the character work better. I don't think what was done with Laurel was executed well. Ideally the show shouldn't have screwed up on the first go round, but IMO it did and something as tiny as a name reveal between a IMO working BC and a highly disappointing one is a small price to pay. I'm firmly in the "Rose by any other name would smell as sweet" camp.

The DC wiki straight says that BC's comic name is Dinah Laurel Lance. The show could have done better, but not by making it worse. Bad writing can't fix bad writing.

And here we fundamentally disagree. For one, it's not about justifying, but choosing a baseline for the characters to start off from. It's about deciding what qualifies or disqualifies someone in this universe where this story is being told from being a hero.

On Arrow Oliver, Sara and Malcolm all have been trained by the LoA and all of them have murdered and tortured and been assassins but Malcolm doesn't feel any guilt. He thinks all his actions are justified. Sara and Oliver have huge regrets and guilt and have been trying to give back and atone and find their way. In the comics and the animated films, the line between villian and hero was killing, on Arrow it's something entirely different.

So while previous incarnations of the GA and BC both in the past were strongly against killing, that is not the case on Arrow, so the BC being more on the same level morally as GA always made lots of sense to me.

Oliver and Sara haven't shown regret for their actions and Oliver hasn't shown guilt. But very directly according to the universe itself as dictated by The Flash murder is wrong. But the show doesn't get to dictate what's right or wrong. It's factual.

This issue comes down to people having a different opinion on what essential characteristics make up the character. For me, I found the changes to Laurel's character (personality, motivations, attitude and abilities) far more problematic than the changes added to Sara's story. In either case their backstories have both been completely changed. I found Sara to more closely line up with my understanding of BC than Laurel. You have the opposite opinion. Neither of us will change our minds.

The basic backstory, name and basic m.o. is the character. In every adaption the character's details can be changed, but every one of them has to have at least 2 out of 3 of those markers. If it has 1, then it's a bad version of the character, none and it's not the character at all, making them having the codename pointless.

Again, I disagree. The main character is what drives the show. Lots of shows are written with co-leads and lots of shows are ensembles with lots of characters and maybe a smaller handful of more important characters and thus the stories being told change focus a lot. Arrow is an ensemble with one lead. The show IMO only works well when all the characters' stories are meaningful to the main character. Otherwise it seems out of place or boring.

Let me use Donna and Quentin as an example. Donna and Quentin dating was interesting when it had ripple effects to Felicity and Laurel and Oliver but when it was just Donna pep talking Quentin over something that didn't connect to Oliver or his concerns, it became out of place and even confusing. Usually the show tries to make sure that everything on it moves the story ahead.

Even Donna and Noah bickering got tied back to Oliver because Curtis tried to make it analogous to Felicity and Oliver. I don't particularly think it was a good analogy but their scenes were there to move Oliver's story along, not just Donna and Noah's or even just Felicity's. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about storytelling wise.

I love Felicity on the show but I don't think her character is written equally to Oliver's nor do I expect it to be. SA's time on screen is always the lion's share. The show always makes sure that HIS viewpoint on anything - be it lying about his kid or being sad about the break up- is the one expressed clearly to the audience even at the expense of other character's characterization (like Thea suddenly being in favor of lying to hide a child's parentage).

In season three they didn't even allow Felicity to say she loved Oliver until more than 3/4's into a season that was all about Oliver being in love with her. The storyline serves Oliver first and foremost.

That's how this show is structured and I don't expect it to change but it does at times do a great disservice to the characters's whose viewpoints are not getting equal focus. It tends to encourage the audience to root more for the lead than anyone else even if he's actually in the wrong.

Take for example the reaction of a good portion of the audience in season one where despite Oliver being absolutely in the wrong for what he did to Laurel, since we had all the backstory on what he suffered and how much he regretted his behavior, it was a lot easier to just see Laurel as the bad guy or at the very least less sympathetic because the show doesn't spend equal time making her sympathetic IMO.

I felt that the iconic BC I knew needed to be given more equal attention than what Laurel was given. Sara got more attention to her back story and what shaped her than anyone else but Oliver. Oliver still being the main guy might have meant that eventually Sara would have suffered backlash like Laurel or Felicity since the show wouldn't equally showcase her viewpoint (and some of that did start happening in late season two) But maybe given the previous precedent, it would have changed the structure of the show to start regularly including her flashbacks as well (or instead once Oliver's were over).

It really is an unknown at this point but over all I stand by my statement that the BC character and the development needed to make it work - whether Laurel or Sara - needed to be given equal time or needed to be allowed to have some big leaps in development off screen since on screen they would always get shafted to an extent.

A character being equal to the main has nothing to do with them being as important as the main in show.

It was muddled enough that I'm not sure what it was supposed to be about but I know it didn't hold my attention.

It wasn't muddled and your attention not being held is on you.

Laurel's only big storyline in season four absolutely was about Sara. Finding out about the pit, digging her up, going to NP, getting Malcolm to let her use the LP, dealing with a mindless Sara, hiding it from the team, getting mad when they got mad that she did. Encouraging her to be the White Canary (technically Lot but still in the same season timeline) After all the Sara stuff Laurel didn't have a clear storyline. She was hardly used most of the time. They had to break up Felicity and Oliver and have Felicity leave the team before Laurel even got to do much talking in the Bunker. Then she died and her storyline became about how she'd still been pining for Oliver?

In season one, Laurel's story wasn't only about Sara, but her character was IMO hugely motivated by what happened when Sara ran off with her boyfriend and was lost at sea only for said boyfriend to return alive and rub her pain in her face. Yes the season had other stuff in it too but Sara's loss and betrayal played on screen in the early episodes in a huge way that shaped my impression of who Laurel was as a character at her core.

I stand by my impression that Laurel was struggling to cope with loss in every season.

Laurel didn't deal with loss at all in s4. But if anything like that happened it was for 1 episode. Her lawyer story was longer than that. In s1 in early episodes, you said it yourself. But that wasn't her main story at all. The straddling the line between breaking the law to help people and keeping to the law was more than anything her main story in s1.

The difference IMO between how Oliver dealt with loss and how Laurel dealt with it was huge. Oliver compartmentalized while Laurel crawled into the drawer with it. Death moved Oliver to make changes in his life just like it altered Laurel's but somehow Oliver's seemed to be healthier changes and more deliberate than the ones that were wrought on Laurel.

Compartmentalizing is just as unhealthy as anything Laurel did. It's actually very similar. In both cases it's a failure to understand that one has to be chosen. You can't have 1 while being the other and you can't separate the 2. In both cases they try to have both.

As for Oliver and Sara, I think they were in different places when it came to dealing with their darkness in season two and I also think that different things bothered them more about their past and present so I do think they had a lot of good parallel but different stories to tell.

Unless each character's story is somehow eventually meaningful in someway to the main character's story, it doesn't belong in the narrative. That still leaves a broad range of what the other character's are doing.

I mean, it's important to see a bit of how Curtis copes with balancing his personal life and his time helping the team because eventually his actions will lead to him becoming a bigger part of the team and Oliver is the guy in charge so that scene where Curtis went home to his husband and declared he was done playing hero is still apart of furthering Oliver's story. So was Felicity getting her PT from Curtis's husband since getting to know his character makes the risk Curtis takes on more meaningful and again, it all connects back to creating a team that Oliver will be leading.

It's why IMO Ray felt so out of place for most of season three. He wasn't tied to Oliver until waaaay too far into the season. They dropped the ball after the initial interaction between them and so it created an island on which Ray stayed until he did start interacting again with Oliver. Over on Lot, the only time I was bored with Ray was when he stopped being connected to the rest of the team. When he got stuck only with Kendra, it hurt his characterization since she too was pretty isolated from the rest of the characters and stories being told.

It's a narrative issue.

Ray didn't feel out of place to me. There was nothing to be bored by for me. He was a more likable character and protagonist than Oliver. Him going after Oliver was 1 of the more engaging things Oliver's lame, flip floppy, unlikable and relative failure of hero butt was apart of in s4 for me. His storyline may have been poorly done, but he never felt out of place to me. The rest is a misunderstanding of the difference between a character having a full character arc of their own that isn't about the main character and having a character arc where they're fully separated from the main character and it's only them. Narrative issues don't hurt characterization unless they're tied to the character. The Ray/Kendra thing didn't have an effect on Ray's character much at all. But you being bored by him not being involved in the plot showcases that you don't seem to want good characters. You seem to want ideas of characters and plot devices. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[Aquahyde]

White Canary now, time to change the title of this thread.

[Haggard01]

White Canary noe, time to change the title of this thread

I think for that to happen you have to contact the mods for Ksite.

Personally I don't see much reason to. After all Sara started off as the Black Canary persona and we've kept the same thread title, for Laurel despite her now also being the Black Canary as well.

[Aquahyde]

Personally I don't see much reason to. After all Sara started off as the Black Canary persona and we've kept the same thread title, for Laurel despite her now also being the Black Canary as well.

I just think it would reflect correctly where the character is at the moment. Yeah it should have been corrected a long time, to respect both Laurel and Sara. In any case, this thread truly belong in the LOT forum now, where Sara is now a regular. And thats awesome for her and Caity Lotz. I enjoy her there as I did in Arrow.

I doubt she will ever come back to this show anyway, not while Queen Feli still reigns this Kingdom.

Ray didn't feel out of place to me. There was nothing to be bored by for me. He was a more likable character and protagonist than Oliver.

What, that stalker, crazyeyes, the one who kidnapped Feli to his Palmer island and made her prop him. He took Feli's virginity when she was saving herself for her Olibur. How dare you.

[Haggard01]

I just think it would reflect correctly where the character is at the moment. Yeah it should have been corrected a long time, to respect both Laurel and Sara. In any case, this thread truly belong in the LOT forum now, where Sara is now a regular. And thats awesome for her and Caity Lotz. I enjoy her there as I did in Arrow.

I doubt she will ever come back to this show anyway, not while Queen Feli still reigns this Kingdom.

Yeah well Sara like you said was an Arrow character so people would just be content of leaving this forum here. I would suggest if you want a Sara/White Canary one on LoT to just start one instead of going through the whole contacting of the mods and everything.

The problem becomes you will have people who are still going to use this forum even if it gets moved to LoT.

While Feclity or rather Gunghiem is in charge I don't want Sara back on Arrow because she would only be used to further prop up Feclity.

[Aquahyde]

No problemo, just a suggestion.

I will be doing most of my talking about Sara/White Canary over at LOT forum anyway.

[Dagenspear]

I think for that to happen you have to contact the mods for Ksite.

Personally I don't see much reason to. After all Sara started off as the Black Canary persona and we've kept the same thread title, for Laurel despite her now also being the Black Canary as well.

She started out as the Canary, not Black Canary.

[BkWurm1]

As for the hypothetical discussion concerning Sara as Black Canary, I personally don't think that "Arrow" would have been any better as an adaptation of the Green Arrow comics if Sara had become the canonical Black Canary instead of Laurel. Besides, there would still be the problem of Olicity versus the canon love interest, in the sense that Canarrow would always be an option/threat to Olicity's hegemony as long as Sara's (hypothetical) version of the Black Canary was a part of the cast. I know that Sara is presented as a lesbian/bi-sexual woman (which makes her less threatening in the eyes of the Olicity shippers), but she does have a recent romantic history with Oliver, which would have challenged the idea that Felicity is the One and Only and Unsurpassable Love of Oliver's Life. The writers and producers have been very diligent in retconning away/downplaying anything that would remind the viewers that Oliver actually loved other women before he encountered the Perfect One in Felicity Smoak. Despite this, I imagine that it still would be a bit awkward having a woman with so much romantic backstory with Oliver on the team together with Felicity. Furthermore, IF Sara had become the show's Black Canary, the comic book purists might have expected/demanded that SHE would be the canonical love interest, which probably would have resulted in epic shipper wars between Oliciters and Canarrow fans.

It is absolutely hypothetical but still entertaining. About the hanging issue of Olicity, I probably never touched on it but had the show done a switch and gone with Sara as becoming the official Black Canary of the series, I would have fully expected that she'd become the end game love interest. The alternative was to do just what they did, swap out the love story to Felicity and try to see Laurel through to becoming the mask.

[Haggard01]

First of all, I can't believe the same day I bragged to someone I'd quit these forums cold turkey 3 months ago is the same day that I got sucked back in. I'm weak. What can I say.

Now I do have to agree that there's no reason why Sara would need to learn boxer moves from Ted Grant after being trained by the LoA but the Arrow twist would have been that he'd be the one to teach her far more important lessons. He could have been the mentor she needed to be a counter weight against Ra's teachings.

Sara desperately wanted to leave killing behind but she found that being sick of the killing wasn't enough. She really didn't know how to solve certain problems without relying on it. She needed to learn more about hope and faith and believing in the impossible than she needed to be taught a right hook.

That's the kind of storyline that I think Sara could have brought that would have been more compelling than Laurel mad and grieving...again. That was pretty much Laurel's character story every season. Year one she was forced to relive her loss when Oliver turned up alive. Year two she was mad and sad over Tommy. Three it was Sara...again. Four was still Sara.

I was wondering where you went. I will say welcome back.

That makes better sense on why Sara would train with Ted Grant.

From a certain perspective, that has been Laurel's most basic story line all four seasons.

[canaryalive]

I find this dispute Laurel is the Black Canary, because of her name and her personality really funny in the context of this show.

First no one points out that we have a character Malcolm Merlyn, who is nothing like his comics book character, he even does not bare the proper name, which belongs to his son, Tommy Merlyn, who actually died. So I will say it again. What works for the comics does not usually works for a TV show. They decided to keep Malcolm as the main villain, although it was meant for Tommy to stay and take the mantel, it was because of the actor Borrowman and his character suited being villain more.

So keeping Lotz and developing her as the Black Canary looked as the right choice. She fits the role better and now on Legends she continues to prove the diversity of her character, no matter how different show Legends is from Arrow. She still gives Black Canary vibe although her character is now White Canary.

And to be honest I really don't understand fans of the comics that prefer Cassidy's version of Black Canary. I like Cassidy, she is great, but her interpretation of the comics book character was not powerful. The stories they gave her character were boring and overly dramatic especially in the early seasons. Even with the canary cry she can't pull of the bad ass look the character deserves. Laurel's motivations to put on the mask were unclear and did not made any sense. All the characters around her disapproved.

But all this dispute about the Canaries and Lance sisters is old.

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS





because the show decided to kill also Laurel's Black Canary and with her final words it seems they are pushing the idea of a new Canary. Which to be honest is ridiculous. They made Laurel completely forget about her sister, and the fact that, as far as this show is concerned, the name Canary came from Sara, and she still rocks it saving the world.
The only Canary this Arrowverse needs now is the one still alive whether on Legends or on Arrow. It started with her and it has to end with her.
I hope the Arrow show does not try to tell us that Laurel's BC was just a part of a bigger chain that Canary arch will be.