View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  • 10 - Excellent

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    11 26.83%
  • 8

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  • 7

    2 4.88%
  • 6

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  • 5

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  • 1 - Give It The Chair

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  1. #61
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    Poor Laurel, do not know when they will start to give the character of Laurel weight it deserves. Perhaps wanting to take to the point of suicide, it's all drama for Laurel.


    The chapter has been very good, the ending left me impressed. THEA, I AM YOUR FATHER xD.

  2. #62
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    Heh didn't see that ending coming (until the odd verdict that is; then I began to wonder....)

    So they pulled a reverse Luke-Leia with Tommy and Thea eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by maasaloo View Post
    Great episode did that ending really happen? we all know how he came back don't we?
    I got the distinct impression from his dialogue that Malcolm faked his death with some technique he picked up during his training. I don't think they will jump straight to the supernatural stuff yet.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Okay, I'm going to weigh in here. First, Dagenspear, a question: if someone YOU cared about, friend or family, was in danger from a lunatic, are you telling me your first thought would not be to kill said lunatic? If someone were threatening a close friend or family member of mine, I would kill them. And Oliver's training kicked in; hat trick to the chest is the most assured method, especially since he had not been killing until recently.
    Agreed. When I went through my concealed handgun course, every possible scenario and possible reaction were drilled into our heads in the class...including, you do not stop firing until the threat is no longer a threat. That being said, one arrow would have killed him, but not right away, he could have still attacked Felicity, he was still a threat. The two follow up shots are the equivalent to your "double tap" if using a sidearm. Did he kill Vertigo? oh yes, was it overkill? no, was it murder? no, it was making sure the threat was neutralized, no more no less.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    I would also point out that there were people on this forum (not sure if you were one of them) about how Oliver did this dramatic one-eighty of not killing without any setbacks. I'd call this a setback. It's realistic, which in case you've forgotten, is the edge that makes Arrow one of the best shows on TV right now.
    I believe I am one of those people who were puzzled and not buying the 180 on killing. What I see here is Oliver trying not to kill, but when the pressure is on and pure reaction happens, it is still going to happen sometimes. This, to me, resolves the problem I had before. And I was glad to see it happen, to be honest. That was really bugging me. It will never be his first choice, but when someone as important as Felicity is at stake, oh hell the gloves come off.

  5. #65
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    I am guessing Sara will turn on the castaways and help Ivo? Thea being a Merlyn is interesting. Poor Felicity...so creepy with The Count.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qutayba7 View Post
    An awful lot of enemies seem to know Oliver's alter-ego at this point. I would think it would be more dangerous to keep his friends and family in the dark. They need to be alert and aware of their surroundings, not clueless and vulnerable. At a certain point, killing anyone who finds him out will start to become impractical.
    That was season one Oliver (and Huntress) - No one can know my secret.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by badraven View Post
    Amazing. Flat amazing. This season just keeps getting better! And next...Barry Allen. (Too bad he looks like a high school student but whattcha gonna do?)
    A high school student super hero? Can somebody say Spider-Man lol - well, he was a long time ago

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by brbo70 View Post
    Why is Dollmaker alive? I know how, but why? Does Blood have a need for guys who make dolls out of people?
    I don't think Doll maker is alive - I think this was a flashback showing how the Vertigo got out of prison. And how, in so doing, allowed the Doll maker to escape as well. And we all know Doll Maker killed a lot of innocent girls after he got out.

    Which makes me wonder why Oliver didn't off Vertigo in the first season, all the people that he killed, including Doll Makers murders, are a direct result of letting Vertigo survive.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I wasn't a fan of Vertigo on the show, even from his first appearance. Too campy, cartoonish, one-dimensional and over-the-top: like some poorly written Phantom Zoner or FOTW on SV. Ollie was right: there was no choice! He needed to die to extract this sort of cheesily-conceived villain from the Arrow universe. I welcome his death. Please, Count Vertigo, never return.
    I couldn't have said it better myself!

  10. #70
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    It has been very entertaining to read all the thoughts in this thread.

    This season, they are flying along in 5th gear or something. All of my pitiful speculations are dashed usually by the very next episode, if not the one after

    I loved this episode, it had me yelling at the tv again while watching.

    Not wanting to rehash all of the excellent posts, i'll pick a few things that don't seem to have much discussion.

    Laurel - somebody better do a serious intervention with her. She is not happy already, and having to be forced into doing something like prosecute Olivers mom - this is not good for her. I think she may come to realize that "working in the system" doesn't work, like her dad seems to have realized. I think Laruel is someone who really loves her work, and throws herself into it 100%. And now, her job basically sucks, and now what is she going to do ? What else is there for her? The whole thing with Laurel makes me sad

    Slade - He's been one of my favorite characters in this show, and now look at him. I don't know a lot about him from the comics, but he seems to be a bounty hunter, or gun for hire type guy. So hopefully, Oliver can put him on the payroll if ( please this is what I want for Christmas everyone ) he appears in the modern days. That should keep him happy. There was some mention of a serum (kinda reminds me of Captain America honestly) that maybe they can put it in Slade to help him survive the burns. Those kinda burns can probably kill you without medical attention. But I really wanted to yell at my TV - Hey Ollie, pass those frelling magical healing weeds you were using so much last season. I also wish Slade had not shot that dude in the feet. makes me think his vision is now impaired.

    Shado - What can I say, I'm glad she is alive, just like Slade. I think it's cool she was wearing her dad's green hood. It was also interesting how she went bow and arrow, but Slade showed up with a fully automatic. They are both very tough warriors, but different styles.

    Island Oliver - Did IO just do a downward punch on a thug? Hooray! For one thing, how often does the opportunity for a downward punch come along, under any circumstances I like this development, i had a feeling they were going to make him go on the island and search for things. And now the Island gang is back together again

    Island Sara - I hope she isn't under some kind of irritating mental control of that Ivo. I have a bad feeling she is going to betray them all. Let's hope I am wrong.

    I have a feeling that IVO is going to GTHO the island, since most of his men are toast. But Oliver will decide that it's his promise to come back for the Russian, which they will probaby do in a couple episodes. That will be a good opportunity for Sara to stab them in the back. But I hope that they dose Slade with some awesome wonder serum, and heck, maybe even Oliver and Shado too.

    Malcolm - Huh? What? I'm sure dude was dead, so there is a clone or something going on here? I think Oliver would have known that the guy was alive, he's very observant of things like that. Now, since he is apparently back, he better be good at hiding, since the entire city blames him for the Glades quake. Don't know if the cops can get him, but if they have even a rumor that Malcolm was alive, they would be all over that.

    Thea - when they tell you Malcolm is your dad, and you violently object and refuse to believe it, I'm with you

  11. #71
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    I'm with you, I feel sorry for Laurel, she is abandoned. I hope the producers know exactly what they are doing with it, because they are doing a good second season and this chapter shows, but I want mooooreeeeee Laurel, to return to work with Arrow, something!!

  12. #72
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    I like Katie Cassidy. I like Laurel too and she has been held back so far.

  13. #73
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    Laurel - somebody better do a serious intervention with her. She is not happy already, and having to be forced into doing something like prosecute Olivers mom - this is not good for her. I think she may come to realize that "working in the system" doesn't work, like her dad seems to have realized. I think Laruel is someone who really loves her work, and throws herself into it 100%. And now, her job basically sucks, and now what is she going to do ? What else is there for her? The whole thing with Laurel makes me sad.
    I'm with you, I feel sorry for Laurel, she is abandoned. I hope the producers know exactly what they are doing with it, because they are doing a good second season and this chapter shows, but I want mooooreeeeee Laurel, to return to work with Arrow, something!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Caught_In_The_Sun View Post
    I like Katie Cassidy. I like Laurel too and she has been held back so far.
    You are not the only ones, believe me! In the more Laurel-friendly (or Katie-friendly) corners of the Internet people have been complaining a long time about what they see as a "side-lining" of Laurel and the Laurel storyline. I wish to believe that the writers have some kind of plan with Laurel's character development and that all this personal drama will have some positive consequences further on down the line. However, as things have been going I just get the feeling that the writers are not really interested in Laurel anymore. Laurel may not be a "fan popular" character (though she clearly has her fans), but she is still one of the main characters in "Arrow" and the GA universe and she deserves a decent storyline, especially if the writers intend to go on with their plan to make her Black Canary and Ollie's/Green Arrow's future partner. I really don't seem how their strategy of constantly setting her up as Oliver's antagonist and making her get into conflict with the Queen family can bee seen as a positive step towards their (eventual) union. The "State vs Queen" episode was a good example of this-by letting her take on the prosecution (something that would have been impermissible in a Real World setting, but I won't harp on that here!) she again came off as the bad guy. I'm sure there were a few people who could empathize with her and feel her pain and remorse, but to some folks (fortunately not here, at least they didn't post them) she again proved what a *beep* she really is and how she doesn't deserve to be with Oliver. Oliver certainly could see her pain, since he tried to reach out to her (asking her for the umpteenth time if "she is OK"!), but in general Laurel was circulating in her own little orbit in this episode, as she has been for most part of the season.

    I usually refrain from writing too much about this on the forum, because it will inevitably bring up the Laurel/Lauriver versus Felicity/Olicity issue. Fortunately we haven't seen any of the "ship wars" and the endless debates about who is the "bestest" girl for Oliver on Ksite. I think it would be great if things would stay that way, because these debates don't lead anywhere and only cause hurt feelings. However, I do think that the huge online popularity of Felicity and the Olicity ship has made the writers give more screen time to "Team Arrow" and focus more on developing some kind of "semi-romantic" relationship between Oliver and Felicity than on developing their main narrative ship and the Laurel storyline. I'm sure that many fans are very happy with this and I can see the POV of the showrunners trying to give the audience what the audience wants. However, at one point or another I think the showrunners have to make up their mind about what to do with Laurel and her storyline and if there is any sense in pursuing a Laurel/Oliver romance. The same could be said about Olicity-if the showrunners don't have any intentions for a serious Olicity romance all they will achieve with this "ship tease" is to build up hopes that won't be fulfilled, something which will probably lead to a great deal of anger and disappointment in the end.

    I sincerely hope this won't start a long Laurel versus Felicity thread, because I've had enough of those on other forums. The way I see it we all have our personal preferences, and sometimes they have nothing to do with who the "best" person for someone or whether a relationship is "healthy" or not. From a storytelling perspective I just wish the writers would stop trying so hard to please everyone and focus more on giving us a consistent story/character development...and I'm not only talking about romance (which only takes up a small part of the action anyway), but in general.
    Last edited by evaba; 11-23-2013 at 01:10 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    Laurel - somebody better do a serious intervention with her. She is not happy already, and having to be forced into doing something like prosecute Olivers mom - this is not good for her. I think she may come to realize that "working in the system" doesn't work, like her dad seems to have realized. I think Laruel is someone who really loves her work, and throws herself into it 100%. And now, her job basically sucks, and now what is she going to do ? What else is there for her? The whole thing with Laurel makes me sad
    It's a two fold problem. On one hand, she's been cut off from storylines we would have seen her involved in last year: Romance with Oliver, cooperation with the Hood and Sara's resurfacing. Like you said, she doesn't have a lot going on. Besides being addicted to pills apparently...

    On the other hand, the writers aren't doing enough to make people care about the character. She comes off quite moody and inconsistent in her reactions.

    The writers have a lot of rebuilding work in their hands as far as Laurel is concerned. Because we are reaching the point where it feels like Oliver should end up with someone else romantically and Sara would make a better endgame Black Canary.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It's a two fold problem. On one hand, she's been cut off from storylines we would have seen her involved in last year: Romance with Oliver, cooperation with the Hood and Sara's resurfacing. Like you said, she doesn't have a lot going on. Besides being addicted to pills apparently...

    On the other hand, the writers aren't doing enough to make people care about the character. She comes off quite moody and inconsistent in her reactions.
    You made such good points that I just had to chime in and elaborate a bit...

    I think your comment about Laurel being cut off from the main action was spot on! In season one Laurel had a friend and colleague (Joanna), a boyfriend and a social life and she spent quite a lot of time with Oliver’s family at the Casa Queen. There was an ongoing involvement with Oliver, either as Oliver or as the Hood, and their relationship was actually going somewhere. Apart from a few scattered scenes, I don’t see their relationship going anywhere this season. As I wrote in my previous post, most of the time Laurel seems to be circulating in her own orbit, more or less alienated from what is going on in the main story and with very little interaction with the other characters. That is a huge difference from season one, where she actively helped Oliver/the Hood (at least until episode 13) or became involved in the main action because of her relationship with Tommy.

    Guggenheim claims that the writers tried to tie the Laurel storyline tighter to the other storylines in season two, because they felt that the Tommy/Laurel storyline was too disconnected in season one. However, up until now this mainly means making Laurel Oliver’s antagonist, something which surely doesn't help her already shaky standing with the “Arrow” fandom. IF the TPTB are still planning to make her Black Canary and Ollie’s future crime fighting partner, I don’t see how this could benefit her at all. Felicity is constantly portrayed as the sweet, loyal girl who helps our Hero, Sara is the cool proto-Black Canary who gets involved in the kick-ass action.....while Laurel is the "psycho ex-girlfriend" who hunts him down to put him in jail for life and who takes on the role of prosecutor in his mother’s trial! I don’t want to get paranoid here and claim that the “Arrow” writers are doing this on purpose but even if it isn’t done on purpose it has certainly damaged her character.

    I don’t understand why making Laurel go to a dark place (in order to hopefully return as a vigilante crime fighter) necessarily has to entail cutting her off from all the main action. For example, I think it was odd that she was not at all involved in the "Sara is alive" storyline especially since Sara's "death" was such a huge issue in season one, both for her a person and for her relationship with Oliver. Hopefully there will be some Laurel/Sara inteaction in future episodes, but if this doesn't happen it will only confirm my feelings that the season two storylines are rather disconnected from the important storylines in season one, at least as far as Laurel is concerned. I mean, if Tommy and Tommy's death is supposed to have such a huge impact on everything Oliver does in season two, how come he is hardly ever mentioned?? Maybe it is because the two people who have the closest emotional connection to Tommy (Oliver and Laurel) hardly ever share any significant scenes anymore??

    I would really like to be able to peep into the writers’ heads and see how they reasoned when they came up with the Laurel season two storyline….because to me it doesn’t make sense. If the writers' intention is to pave the way for Laurel's transformation into the Black Canary, this just seems like a very convoluted way to go from A to B.
    Last edited by evaba; 11-23-2013 at 03:13 AM.

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