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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamsofnever View Post
    I'm really disappointed in the writer's choices for Laurel myself. It feels like they're trying to make her an unsympathetic character this year and considering that Black Canary/Dinah Laurel Lance is my all time favorite superhero, this just sucks. I would rather they not have her on the show at all than have her on the show just to turn her into a Lana-like character.

    It's unfortunate because I think that there are a lot of other routes they could have taken her both this season and last that would have been better but this season it feels like they're actively trying to throw her character under the bus to prop up Olicity.

    I've never been a fan of people getting angry with superheroes (or vigilantes) because they didn't manage to save someone. Even Superman can't be everywhere. And I believe they're trying to show that Laurel is feeling survivor's guilt and directing her anger and blame somewhere else because of it, but they really need to show more of that if that's the angle they're going for.

    Very good points, "dreamsofnever"! In general I'm quite positive towards Laurel, but I agree with you that the writers seem to go out of their way to make their main heroine as unlikeable as possible to the viewers/fans, to the point where I'm also starting to believe that they are preparing the way for an "Olicity" take-over! And even if they only wanted to create more melodrama and suspense between their "destined lovers", I think they could have accomplished this without sabotaging Dinah's/Black Canary's character. I don't believe that the comic book Dinah/Laurel would ever have behaved this way towards Ollie...although they have their conjugal spates, their relationship has always been rather healthy and easy-going IMHO, not at all like this season's antagonistic, "love-hate" relationship between the CW Laurel/Black Canary and Oliver/Green Arrow.

    I get the feeling that the "Arrow" writers might have overestimated the viewers' maturity and ability to understand a flawed and mentally messed-up Laurel as well as their willingness to see things from her POV. It is a known fact that female protagonists in general are much more harshly judged than male protagonists by the online fandom...and if it weren't for the Ksite ban on providing outside links I could refer to some very good blog articles which discuss the skewed perceptions that characterize most fandoms. One good example is the Skyler White character, who was subjected to an inordinate amount of vitriol from the "Breaking Bad" fandom, a kind of character bashing that got so bad that Anna Gunn felt compelled to address the issue in an article in the NYTimes. And I don't think that this has anything to do with an actress' talent or suitability for a certain role-after all, Anna Gunn got an Emmy for her portrayal of Skyler White.

    I presume that the "Arrow" writers are aware of these fandom dynamics-and yet they chose to throw their future Black Canary under the bus, providing her with rather feeble and unconvincing motives for going after the Vigilante and giving her a role that will make it difficult for many viewers to accept her as Green Arrow's future partner. I think that their overall plan for Laurel's storyline is that she will eventually come to her senses and realize that the Vigilante is not her enemy. However, right now I'm wondering if this change of heart may come too late for some fans...

    I have the impression that I'm probably quite a few years older than many "Arrow" viewers. That may be the reason why I feel that some recent fan reactions are somewhat exaggerated and over the top. I mean, I really can't bring myself to "hate" a fictional character on a TV show, especially a character who in general has not been portrayed as a despicable, evil and selfish person. I will spare my hateful feelings for those who really deserve it, like Real World paedophiles or those Talibans who shoot little girls in the head just because they want to go to school. I actually think that a mentally confused and vengeful Laurel is more interesting than the moping generic "love interest" we saw in the latter part of season one, but few viewers seem to share my feelings. On the other hand, I really hope that the writers have some kind of plan for her and that her current mindset is a temporary stage in her evolution into the Black Canary.
    Last edited by evaba; 10-18-2013 at 05:02 PM.

  2. #17
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    Personally, I feel they should have played up the fact that he abandoned the city after the earthquake in Laurel's reasoning. Combined with a shift of perspective towards Tommy's viewpoint of the hood as a killer (we already know this part of the hood scared her) and perhaps her shift of perspective would feel a little more justified than it does now. Right now it feels like a combination of flawed perceptions and survivor's guilt is the base of her anger.

    However, I get the feeling the writers were looking for an excuse to put Laurel in this position. The justification probably came second.

    What I don't get is the surprise or outrage of the trap Laurel laid. Given her current viewpoint, it makes perfect sense that she would lay a trap. I do find it funny that she had a SWAT team hang around her office all night just out of sight, when she was at a party earlier that night. What if he didn't come back that night? Also how Oliver miss them when approaching the office as the must of had it surrounded prior to his arrival.

  3. #18
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    Laurel is too one sided by blind hate towards The Hood aka Oliver. She's acting that way because it was someone close to her that died and blames the Hood because in her eyes, he did nothing to help Tommy. If it was someone else that she didn't know, she wouldn't be as mad as she is at the hood. I don't agree with her outburst on the hood at all. She needs to step back and look at the bigger picture, rather than the smaller one that she wants to blame the hood.



    As to how Oliver gets out of that trap constructed by Laurel, I have no idea, lol. But, I'm sure Oliver has something up his sleeve to get out of it. He had to know going back to Laurel again was going to get him corned. I mean, he had to envision a scenario where he would get trapped.

  4. #19
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    Laurel has never been one of my favorites. I've tried to like her but I just can't. And it's because of her choices like this. She's very easily led by her emotions, which isn't always a bad thing but hers are very misplaced.
    It does not make sense for her to place the blame on the hood for not saving Tommy, He had bigger problems. MAYBE if she knew if was Oliver it would make sense but otherwise it just doesn't. Did she just expect the hood to only protect the people around her?
    Even last season when she was doing "good things" she wasn't rational about them. And that is why I just can't like her. She takes such drastic measures when making decisions, good or bad.

  5. #20
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    Did not see it coming. At all. Makes no sense. Given her prior trust in the hood, it seems she would have set a more personal trap, not involving a huge number of others, give him a chance to prove himself. This betrayal is over the top. He could die.

    At any rate, I find it even more surprising that she directs her anger at the hood instead of directing it at Ollie. After all, if she was unfaithful to Tommy, that was with Ollie, not with the hood, and that is where her anger should be directed. But instead she *defends* Oliver at the benefit dinner when Alderman Blood wants to slander him. Just the opposite of Season 1, where she was mad at Oliver and turned to the hood for help.

    As for "Ollicity" - anyone drawing a parallel between that and Smallville's Chlollie? Felicity is full of great qualities and really deserves someone who can appreciate her. But it looks like the "Arrow" version of Oliver is still pining for his childhood sweetheart. Otherwise why would he do such a foolish thing as go visit her and not prepare at all for a possible trap? (As he was told on the island, being distracted by a woman can impair your judgment and cost you your life.)

    Maybe Laurel's father will intervene; perhaps he'll say, "Let me take this one" and escort the hood away himself, in handcuffs but still hooded. He would be respectful enough not to unmask the hood. Or maybe a higher-ranking official will have jumped onto the hood bandwagon after the FEMA van rescue.

    But, as some have suggested, Black Canary's very high-pitched scream would certainly do the trick here. Is Laurel really going to become Canary? Maybe Felicity invents some high-tech screech device and has been learning to fight. SOMEONE blonde rescued Rob, and I doubt it was Laurel. Could have been Felicity. Also, Laurel's hardly in the mindset to rescue Ollie right now...

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I actually think that a mentally confused and vengeful Laurel is more interesting than the moping generic "love interest" we saw in the latter part of season one, but few viewers seem to share my feelings. On the other hand, I really hope that the writers have some kind of plan for her and that her current mindset is a temporary stage in her evolution into the Black Canary.
    For me, it seems the character growth, or whatever you call it, is happening too fast. I don't see how Ollie could all of a sudden have a "no kill" mindset. Or how Laurel would just turn on the Arrow all of a sudden. I can kind of understand Quentin, since he went through an appropriate progression to arrive at his current appreciation of the Arrow.

    Maybe this is because I'm not a big TV viewer, but more of a reader.

    Doesn't it seem logical that maybe Ollie would determine over maybe a 6 episode arc that he should back off on the killing? I actually feel they did a good job of pointing out that he didn't make that his first option in the previous season. As a viewer, I didn't put that together for a few episodes, but it was there.

    For Laurel, she had put a lot of trust in Arrow in the previous season. Then, all of a sudden, in 5 months, she has almost a personality switch. It feels out of character to me. We didn't see how she got this new attitude towards Arrow, except for this tidbit that she saw Arrow escaping the burning building without saving Tommy.

    I can't bring myself to dislike Laurel yet. Previously, she was aware that the Hood was dangerous. She did trust him with her life a couple times. He did save her bacon in the prison that one time. I believe he also did the same a couple times when her apartment was the local war zone lol.

    It feels kind of disjointed. Maybe they are trying to put so much stuff into this season they want to move quickly along, and some of he character development was put aside?

    Anyway, I love watching the show, and can't wait to see how Arrow gets out of this cliffhanger. It reminds me of that episode where Quentin busted into the Queen mansion and arrested Ollie.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgoboom View Post
    Personally, I feel they should have played up the fact that he abandoned the city after the earthquake in Laurel's reasoning. Combined with a shift of perspective towards Tommy's viewpoint of the hood as a killer (we already know this part of the hood scared her) and perhaps her shift of perspective would feel a little more justified than it does now. Right now it feels like a combination of flawed perceptions and survivor's guilt is the base of her anger.
    I agree, this is what I was trying to say in my other post

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    For me, it seems the character growth, or whatever you call it, is happening too fast. I don't see how Ollie could all of a sudden have a "no kill" mindset. Or how Laurel would just turn on the Arrow all of a sudden. I can kind of understand Quentin, since he went through an appropriate progression to arrive at his current appreciation of the Arrow.

    Maybe this is because I'm not a big TV viewer, but more of a reader.

    Doesn't it seem logical that maybe Ollie would determine over maybe a 6 episode arc that he should back off on the killing? I actually feel they did a good job of pointing out that he didn't make that his first option in the previous season. As a viewer, I didn't put that together for a few episodes, but it was there.

    For Laurel, she had put a lot of trust in Arrow in the previous season. Then, all of a sudden, in 5 months, she has almost a personality switch. It feels out of character to me. We didn't see how she got this new attitude towards Arrow, except for this tidbit that she saw Arrow escaping the burning building without saving Tommy.

    I can't bring myself to dislike Laurel yet. Previously, she was aware that the Hood was dangerous. She did trust him with her life a couple times. He did save her bacon in the prison that one time. I believe he also did the same a couple times when her apartment was the local war zone lol.

    It feels kind of disjointed. Maybe they are trying to put so much stuff into this season they want to move quickly along, and some of he character development was put aside?

    Anyway, I love watching the show, and can't wait to see how Arrow gets out of this cliffhanger. It reminds me of that episode where Quentin busted into the Queen mansion and arrested Ollie.
    I totally agree with you that Laurel's sudden switch in relation to the Hood seems much too abrupt, and I'm actually angry with the writers for mistreating Laurel's character AGAIN. Sometimes it seems like they go out of their way to make her unlikeable to the general "Arrow" fan, who may not have much patience with flawed female characters anyway! I also find some of the motives they gave her for turning against the Hood rather flimsy.

    From a purely professional/legal viewpoint I can understand why Laurel would go after the Hood-she is a lawyer and catching him is her current assignment. Given that her own father already has determined that the Hood has some thirty lives on his conscience, this manhunt is justifiable from a legal standpoint...and since Laurel doesn't know that Oliver is the Hood, she can't see things from his POV, like we do. Of course, Laurel and the Hood did co-operate in season one and he saved her life on a number of occasions, but even then she had her doubts about his brand of vigilante justice, so it's not totally unbelievable that Laurel as a lawyer would have a change of heart and deem it necessary that he should be brought to justice.

    It's Laurel's personal motives that I find somewhat unconvincing to be honest. It's true that the Hood didn't manage to stop Malcolm's diabolical plan and save the Glades, but that's not enough for her to start a personal vendetta against him IMHO. It is also difficult for me to understand why she thinks that the Hood could have saved Tommy, since logically speaking he could not have known that Tommy would rush into a collapsing building to save her at a certain moment...unless she believes that the Hood is somehow clairvoyant/omniscient and knows everything that is going on in all parts of the city! If I were Laurel, I would rather have wondered what the Hood was doing at the CNRI in the first place, and why he said that he had also lost a friend in their second "Identity" encounter. With Oliver returning at the same time as the Hood reappears in town, it wouldn't be that hard for her put two and two together and at least start suspecting that Oliver and the Hood is the same man. On the other hand, as viewers we are privy to LOTS of information that is not available to Laurel, so things probably look a lot more self-evident in our eyes than in hers.

    The only way I can make this plot twist make sense (without blaming the writers for shoddy writing!) is that Laurel's mode of reasoning is SUPPOSED to be illogical, because she is too guilt-ridden and full of grief to be able to think in a rational or logical manner. From a psychological viewpoint it is plausible that she would be looking for a scapegoat, and that she turns against the one person that she thinks could have saved Tommy. I'm not sure that the writers are that sophisticated, though!

    Now, I'm usually quite lenient towards Laurel because I like her (I still do, actually), but the lack of a plausible explanation for her actions in season two still annoys me!

    I also agree with you that Oliver's sudden change from a basically "kill or be killed mindset" (even in the season finale he broke the necks of two henchmen with that chain!) to a non-violent hero is a bit too abrupt, and I also find his motives rather unconvincing. However, I have already written something about that in another thread, so I'll stop here.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightHawk777 View Post
    For me, it seems the character growth, or whatever you call it, is happening too fast. I don't see how [snip] Laurel would just turn on the Arrow all of a sudden.
    Agreed. Laurel's action didn't quite follow. Maybe this was a temporary lapse. A single action or conversation doesn't reveal all that is going on below the surface; in her case perhaps she actually is struggling and we'll learn more about it later.

  10. #25
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    Basically, the whole character of Laurel baffles me. The way she was relegated to mostly a boring love interest in season 1, to now turning on the Hood suddenly. They took a character most people were already lukewarm to or disliked and made her even more unlikable. And that might be fine in a well written cable drama like Breaking Bad where there's plenty to like about deeply flawed characters and their journeys, no offense but the Arrow writers aren't all that great and they aren't up to the task for something like that.

    What's worse is they're introducing a Black Canary that will have flashbacks and a bunch of character development, and who will be what people expected Laurel to be when the show was first announced instead of a boring lawyer, and the producers are saying this new character who sounds like she will be more developed than Laurel was in the entire first season will eventually be killed off to make Laurel more interesting. It's baffling.

    They better hope people don't like this new Canary, or else people are going to be even more pissed off with Laurel and them that they killed off a good character so they could make a bad one possibly better.

  11. #26
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    I thought laurel was the black canary? I see a lot of comments from people saying the canary will rescue him, we'll if laurel is the canary how is she going to rescue him?

    i think he will trick arrow his way out of this.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
    I thought laurel was the black canary? I see a lot of comments from people saying the canary will rescue him, we'll if laurel is the canary how is she going to rescue him?

    i think he will trick arrow his way out of this.
    Laurel isn't "THE" Black Canary yet. There's another Canary in town this season as seen by the end of episode 1 of Season 2.

  13. #28
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    I'm so full of questions after that 2nd episode, I'm not sure what to think. Will have to watch the 3rd and hope there are some better answers.

    This whole thing with Tommy dying seems odd. I need to rewatch the episode, but I recall Laurel rushing around, and then she got trapped under some big shelves. Tommy then made it in there and got that off of her, but then the ceiling fell on him and that was it for Tommy. I don't remember what Laurel did immediately after, but at some point I remember Arrow finding Tommy and almost breaking down as he was dying.

    So how, sequentially, did that Laurel watch Arrow going out of the building without saving Tommy, who was already doomed from saving Laurel?
    Is there a sinister time manipulating bad guy at work here? I'm going to chalk it all up to grief, heat of the moment, and that sort of thing.

    I'm getting a brain ache trying to understand the new Laurel. After all the good that happened from her and the Hood working together in season one, I'm unable to understand. Sure, some bad guys got killed, but a lot of innocent people didn't get killed.

    Maybe Bob Newhart will wake up and none of this actually happened

  14. #29
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    Laurel, Laurel ... what to do ...

    How they're writing her so far reminds me of how Lana on SV would get story arcs to make her character more relevant to Clark's journey -- with lukewarm results. It might have helped his story at times, but it didn't do wonders for her character's growth in general.

    When Laurel hooked up with Ollie last season, that did more to make Tommy's sacrifice more poignant by the finale. But for her character, I felt it was too rushed. I didn't want a Green Arrow - Black Canary pairing too soon on the series. Now that she's on a quest to bring down the vigilante -- wasn't that Det. Lance's quest last season? -- it seems like it's there merely to drive a wedge between the destined couple. While that means they won't be pairing up anytime soon (a good thing IMHO), it also seemed to come out of left field. Where was all this brewing animosity for the vigilante last season? He's a guardian angel -- until Tommy dies -- then "the hood" is the personification of all that's wrong with Starling City? Will she be blaming him for Tommy's death all season long?

    (I'd also have to agree that Ollie's conversion from a vigilante willing to kill, to a hero that won't cross that line seemed quick -- I guess we're to assume he had this moral catharsis off-screen on his island retreat.)

    It's still early in S2, so I hope they may yet be able to sell it. Mission #1 for Arrow S2: work on Laurel's character development, so that she can stand on her own. Not just as a secondary plot device.

    Like a lot of people, Black Canary is one of my favourite DC superheroines, so I want her treatment on the show to be handled well. Come on, she's going to be a founding member of the JLA someday.
    Last edited by President_Luthor; 10-22-2013 at 08:53 AM.

  15. #30
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    I know this is a Laurel thread, and I am awaiting what she does next.

    But you reminded me of another thing that is bugging me this season. Arrows sudden barrier against killing somebody.
    I don't see realistically how he can do this without going through a lot of effort. Part of this stems from training.
    In these type of fights he is in (knife, arrow, etc), he won't be thinking, but reacting. This is why you see a lot of drills in martial arts.
    Especially regarding a knife. You don't have time to think "oh, this guy has a knife, and he is aiming at my left arm". You simply react, at
    a speed that afterwards, you may not be sure what you did. But the training comes out and takes over.

    His training was entirely survival, so that is where the kill or be killed mindset comes from. I'm not even sure he could control it if he wanted to.
    Maybe this will play out during the season, or I'll chalk it up to another something the writers are unaware of.

    Anyway, I still want Laurels dad to walk in and ground her, immediately defusing the tense situation at the end of the last episode

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