Disturbing New Theory on Why People Were Unhappy With the Killing of Zod

[McFly]

Ur over thinking what they gave us in SM 2.. Remember kids had to get what happened.. And as one of them back then, the thought that they went into another PZ NEVER crossed my mind.. I dont read comics as ive said many times, so back then i went with what i saw.. Them fall into nothingness to never be heard from since.. Not in SM 3 SM 4.. The Zod story in the movies was over in SM 2

[McFly]

Even the Donner version wrapped up the Zod story.. It was safe to say he wasn't coming back.. Movies didn't think like that in general back then either..

[Backward Galaxy]

Your rationale is wonderful and I frankly agree with you. But that is only because Im all grown up now and view movies with a critical mind. What I'm saying is that DA's argument on why people are so offended by the killing of Zod in MoS isn't relevant to the way you have dismantled the original. Lots and lots and lots of people watch that movie and think, "well, that's that. Zod's dead". The points you bring up are great for discussion between hard core fans but it doesn't dictate general perception of the film or fan reaction. Again, the whole point of the thread.

Who is making the noise about Zod's death? Is it the average person off the street or is it the hardcore fans and the critics? Let's not pretend like DA polled 100 average joes off the street. He got a consensus from people who are fans of the character and/or genre to the point where they go on message boards to talk about them. He got a consensus from published critics who talk about films for a living.

[Xanderman]

The Kryptonian villains don't even kill anybody.

Everybody lived except that one little British boy of course....for some entertaining reason he had an English accent despite being a resident of hick-town USA. The poor kid died after Non bombed him to hell with a weaponized police siren. I guess that wasn't in the original cut, but I'm most familiar with certain tv airings that were shown repeatedly. This tv version also had an awesome intro with a montage of scenes from the first film set to the Superman theme song. Watching Superman II without this intro just isn't the same. (Actually the bad guys also murdered those astronauts on the moon didn't they...unless that too wasn't in the theatrical version?)

Boy: Please, sir!
Ursa: He's a general!
Boy: Please, Mr. General, please let my daddy down!
Ursa: Call him sir!

(I tweaked it a bit...Ursa torturing the boy a bit more seems fitting.)

It's not some random deleted scene that may or may not be canon.

For me and I'm sure many others, I'm most familiar with the tv version(s) I mentioned and that (or those) are canon for me. Either way, the fact that this alternate cut exists, to me anyway, serves to make it clear that Supes (and Lois) were in fact not murderers at the end of Superman II.

There is no substantive evidence at all to support that the Kryptonians are dead.

Indeed, and in fact we have evidence to the contrary thanks to the deleted/alternate scenes.

And now, a random quote:

During their flight to the FOS...
Zod: I trust you are not wasting my time, Lex Luthor!
Lex: Of course not, Your Turbulence!

[McFly]

Random quote..
"Why do u say these things to me, when u know i will kill u for it.."

We all can go back and forth but in the end of the day we're all fans.. And we are discussing a subjective matter.. All in fun ppl..

[DA_Champion]

Who is making the noise about Zod's death? Is it the average person off the street or is it the hardcore fans and the critics? Let's not pretend like DA polled 100 average joes off the street. He got a consensus from people who are fans of the character and/or genre to the point where they go on message boards to talk about them. He got a consensus from published critics who talk about films for a living.

The same fans who complained about the ending of MoS largely understood the ending of SII to be one of Superman killing Zod. You can search what fan sites say, and many of them, most of them, conclude that Zod is deceased at the end of SII. By my theory, the reason people didn't complain at the time (though some like Mark Waid did complain about SII's ending) is that you were not confronted with the death in SII, it was swept under the rug. If you blinked, you might not even know it happened.

I'll point out a problem with your interpretation that there are no deaths in the Donnerverse, and thus Zod didn't die. One can also make the case, trivially, that Superman did not commit murder in MoS, but rather he committed euthanasia, which is ethically distinct from murder. The interpretive case is not hard to make, as Goyer/Snyder made it self-evident that Zod wanted to die and that this was a suicide-by-cop, several times over. The entire script of the movie let us know that Kryptonians like Zod have only one purpose in life, and in his case it is to defend Krypton, which he can no longer do once the genesis chambers are destroyed. He says so himself in the last act, and he says he no longer has a reason to live. He tells Clark "This ends one way, you die or I die." Finally, when Clark has his arms around Zod's neck, Zod does not fight back, he allows Clark to kill him -- suicide-by-cop. I'm sure Clark noticed that Zod stopped fighting back. Clark shouts out in agony as the last link to his homeland is severed. In the matter of a few weeks Clark has gone from telling his mother, ecstatically, that he has met his biological parents, to needing to euthanise Zod and completely shutting the door on Krypton.

I recognise that most audience members did not understood the death as being on euthanasia in MoS, as I similarly doubt that they thought Zod was sent to prison at the end of SII.

ETA and Off-Topic:

4: he killed that T-1000 in Smallville - I remember A LOT of people hating Smallville because the "freaks" died all the time. I myself, on this very website, called Clark a murderer several times. I remember a lot of people found it stupid and aggravating.

You and I used to argue about the quality of Smallville. In hindsight, you were right and I was wrong. The show was very poorly written. It had some early momentum due to the fact the first few seasons had good parts (e.g. Chloe-Clark friendship), and it could strip mine a rich mythology, but other then that there were too many problems.

I tuned out of Smallville when they made Clark a bad, abusive boyfriend of Lois. That may not have been the heaviest straw (legitimate argument though), but it was the last straw.

[Backward Galaxy]

The same fans who complained about the ending of MoS largely understood the ending of SII to be one of Superman killing Zod. You can search what fan sites say, and many of them, most of them, conclude that Zod is deceased at the end of SII. By my theory, the reason people didn't complain at the time (though some like Mark Waid did complain about SII's ending) is that you were not confronted with the death in SII, it was swept under the rug. If you blinked, you might not even know it happened.

I think you're making a bold jump, again because it fits your conclusions. I don't see that absolute consensus at all. You've already seen, what, four people in this thread who never thought they were dead even before I made my case.

I'll point out a problem with your interpretation that there are no deaths in the Donnerverse, and thus Zod didn't die. One can also make the case, trivially, that Superman did not commit murder in MoS, but rather he committed euthanasia, which is ethically distinct from murder. The interpretive case is not hard to make, as Goyer/Snyder made it self-evident that Zod wanted to die and that this was a suicide-by-cop, several times over. The entire script of the movie let us know that Kryptonians like Zod have only one purpose in life, and in his case it is to defend Krypton, which he can no longer do once the genesis chambers are destroyed. He says so himself in the last act, and he says he no longer has a reason to live. He tells Clark "This ends one way, you die or I die." Finally, when Clark has his arms around Zod's neck, Zod does not fight back, he allows Clark to kill him -- suicide-by-cop. I'm sure Clark noticed that Zod stopped fighting back. Clark shouts out in agony as the last link to his homeland is severed. In the matter of a few weeks Clark has gone from telling his mother, ecstatically, that he has met his biological parents, to needing to euthanise Zod and completely shutting the door on Krypton.

I recognise that most audience members did not understood the death as being on euthanasia in MoS, as I similarly doubt that they thought Zod was sent to prison at the end of SII.

I disagree with your assertion that people didn't understand Zod was trying to get Superman to kill him. I understood it. You understood it. They practically spoon fed the audience as much. Almost everyone acknowledges that Superman was put in a position where he had to kill Zod. They might not be able to articulate it that way, but I think they recognized the situation.

[Backward Galaxy]

ETA and Off-Topic:

You and I used to argue about the quality of Smallville. In hindsight, you were right and I was wrong. The show was very poorly written. It had some early momentum due to the fact the first few seasons had good parts (e.g. Chloe-Clark friendship), and it could strip mine a rich mythology, but other then that there were too many problems.

I tuned out of Smallville when they made Clark a bad, abusive boyfriend of Lois. That may not have been the heaviest straw (legitimate argument though), but it was the last straw.

Smallville was a legitimately successful show that had a lot going for it early on. But yes, the writing was trainwreck bad in a lot of places.

[maasaloo]

I'll put this here. Snyder's was in Japan promoting MOS there. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/.../#.Uh-ZWH89XAr

“I wanted the movie to have a mythological feeling. In ancient mythology, mass deaths are used to symbolize disasters. In other countries like Greece and Japan, myths were recounted through the generations, partly to answer unanswerable questions about death and violence. In America, we don’t have that legacy of ancient mythology. Superman (who first appeared in ‘Action Comics’ in 1938) is probably the closest we get. It’s a way of recounting the myth.”

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

I'll put this here. Snyder's was in Japan promoting MOS there. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/.../#.Uh-ZWH89XAr

“I wanted the movie to have a mythological feeling. In ancient mythology, mass deaths are used to symbolize disasters. In other countries like Greece and Japan, myths were recounted through the generations, partly to answer unanswerable questions about death and violence. In America, we don’t have that legacy of ancient mythology. Superman (who first appeared in ‘Action Comics’ in 1938) is probably the closest we get. It’s a way of recounting the myth.”

That's interesting though I think a modern spin on the Twelve Labors of Hercules (for example) would have been more fitting for Superman's character.

[Backward Galaxy]

I'll put this here. Snyder's was in Japan promoting MOS there. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/.../#.Uh-ZWH89XAr

“I wanted the movie to have a mythological feeling. In ancient mythology, mass deaths are used to symbolize disasters. In other countries like Greece and Japan, myths were recounted through the generations, partly to answer unanswerable questions about death and violence. In America, we don’t have that legacy of ancient mythology. Superman (who first appeared in ‘Action Comics’ in 1938) is probably the closest we get. It’s a way of recounting the myth.”

That man should stop talking.

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

So basically because America doesn't have a legacy of ancient mythology the movie is promoted as being realistic and about an alien immigrant who's still an average joe rising up to become the greatest superhero there is - the American Dream come true.

But in Asia people care about mythology and larger than life figures so the movie is mysteriously promoted as being just that. A spiritual journey to answer questions about death and violence. Trunks on, trunks off Kal-El-san!

[Anno_Domini]

You guys are bringing up Smallville, but there is a HUGE difference with Superman killing Zod in MOS and Clark killing the "freaks" in SV. While some were accidental, most were Clark's doing and he didn't act like he cared on what he did. At least we saw the pure emotion after Superman snapped Zod's neck.

One thing that I felt was missed in Batman Begins. I would have loved to see Batman showing emotion when Ra's al Ghul died, but I guess it matters with the pacing too and wouldn't have fit, but with Smallville's case, there would be fitting pacing to show Clark showing some emotion after a "freak" died during a fight with him. It could've been an overlapping theme too within the series up until the point he becomes The Blur and vows to focus more of just stopping the baddies and not having them killed in action.

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

At least we saw the pure emotion after Superman snapped Zod's neck.

Superman feels bad about killing someone. That's as far as it went. There was no lines about: "Never again." or anything like that. The next we see Superman is happily bringing down a spy drone in a quirky scene where a female soldier comments that Superman is hot. After that we see Clark joining the Daily Planet in a nostalgia inducing scene. It's like killing someone didn't faze him all that much really.

By all intents and purposes the movie is condoning Superman's actions and doesn't care to follow up on the killing with...anything. And it makes no sense that by killing Superman developes his "no killing rule". So when the next "Zod" comes along he doesn't kill him? Well good for that movie.

The closest we get to the issue is when young Clark asks whether he should have left some people to die. Jonathan answers "maybe". And then Clark lets Jonathan die when the tornado hits when he could have easily saved him. Damn any secret identity.

[DA_Champion]

Superman feels bad about killing someone. That's as far as it went. There was no lines about: "Never again." or anything like that. The next we see Superman is happily bringing down a spy drone in a quirky scene where a female soldier comments that Superman is hot. After that we see Clark joining the Daily Planet in a nostalgia inducing scene. It's like killing someone didn't faze him all that much really.

By all intents and purposes the movie is condoning Superman's actions and doesn't care to follow up on the killing with...anything. And it makes no sense that by killing Superman developes his "no killing rule". So when the next "Zod" comes along he doesn't kill him? Well good for that movie.

The closest we get to the issue is when young Clark asks whether he should have left some people to die. Jonathan answers "maybe". And then Clark lets Jonathan die when the tornado hits when he could have easily saved him. Damn any secret identity.

The drone scene is one of the best character moments I've ever seen in a superhero movie.

As for the agony, it's the first time I've ever seen Clark/Superman feel bad about killing someone, and I've seen it a several times in various mediums, live action TV, movies, comics, cartoons, etc. You want him to feel more guilt, and that's fine, I'll remind you that trauma is not linear. Sometimes it doesn't hit people until long after the fact. Think of military vets for example, my understanding is that depression doesn't hit them immediately.

I have one caveat though. I'm not sure Clark felt bad about killing Zod because it was killing Zod. Maybe he felt bad because it was severing the last link to his homeland. He is now a pure orphan.

ETA: Does anybody understand what Snyder is talking about?