"The Great Escapist" Countdown/LIVE Discussion Thread!

[SuperSheltie]

Good catches....I'm hoping that some of them are addressed in the "penultimate episode" but I'm thinking when Metatron and Cas have their sit-down chat on the bench (Cas does seem to like benches) that some of the backstory of Metatron and the angels will be addressed further.

I think that Metatron used a shotgun because originally he did not know who the Winchesters were and they could just be some regular old people out to steal his stories....

I also think at the time they didn't realize how the batcave worked, i.e. communications block, etc., and Kevin was in the sigil-encrusted boat before they discovered the MoL bunker, so I am assuming that they felt he was safe on the boat, until he disappeared that is.

Crowley has set up the whole boat thing as a replica to fool Kevin, so it's not surprising it was just plain water in the guns.

And frankly the angels aren't that clever....apparently so wrapped up in their own infighting they never figured it out, or perhaps, Naomi knew were he was, but just kept wiping the slate to keep them away from him....

[InactiveUserID]

Metatron isn't an archangel. He's a...... NERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been disappointed with how low-key the trials have been. These are the kind of trials I'd expect if the goal was to "Become an Angel" or something relatively minor like that. If your goal is to forever change the dynamics of how hell does business, how would killing a hell hound even register as a blip on the radar. It doesn't seem like a task properly scaled to the grandiose mission of closing hell's gates. The 2nd and 3rd tasks seem more like angelic finishing school stuff you'd do to earn your wings.

It's a narrow scope this season. Coasting along, mostly, as if the show was a burger that's been put under a heating lamp to make it last longer. And I've assumed for a while that this was the final season... now somebody above ^ says there's going to be even more show next year????? That's crazy. Are they trying to follow the Simpsons into eternity or something?

[Sotaris]

Metatron isn't an archangel. He's a...... NERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been disappointed with how low-key the trials have been. These are the kind of trials I'd expect if the goal was to "Become an Angel" or something relatively minor like that. If your goal is to forever change the dynamics of how hell does business, how would killing a hell hound even register as a blip on the radar. It doesn't seem like a task properly scaled to the grandiose mission of closing hell's gates. The 2nd and 3rd tasks seem more like angelic finishing school stuff you'd do to earn your wings.

It's a narrow scope this season. Coasting along, mostly, as if the show was a burger that's been put under a heating lamp to make it last longer. And I've assumed for a while that this was the final season... now somebody above ^ says there's going to be even more show next year????? That's crazy. Are they trying to follow the Simpsons into eternity or something?

Exactly. That's the kind of lazy, inexperienced writing I'm talking about. It's as if they've plucked someone unfamiliar with the genre and Supernatural off the streets and put them in charge. And don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of Jeremy Carver and was super happy to hear the news when he replaced Gamble. But I'm starting to wonder if we were wrong about him, if we only thought he was so great because it *looked* as if he had done great work, but it was really Kripke or Singer that did the work we often attribute to our fondness for Jeremy. Perhaps Jeremy has good ideas, but not without the support of Kripke, or maybe he writes amazing standalone, monster of the week episodes, but can't handle large mythology story archs.

I mean think about this whole season, has anything *really* happened, has anything felt *really* important? Sure, closing the gates of hell *sounds epic* on paper, but it certainly hasn't felt that way this season. As you mentioned, these trials are seriously a joke. I would have expected something more along the lines of "Trial 1: Break into Hell and slay a Knight of Lucifer (then they would have broken into hell, and we'd have seen the background of hell/scenery of hell the way we did when they rescued Bobby, except they'd be battling there way through throngs of demons to get to Abaddon, who is atop a throne of bones and flesh, laughing maniacally. I mean we heard about how "many angels were lost" to rescue Dean from hell, and then Cas from Purgatory, and yet Sam strolls in like it's nothing, and finds exactly what he needs like it's nothing, despite Hell's massive size and despite past events. Abaddon was squandered and would have been much cooler as a leader and ruler of a sect of Hell, powerful and different than other demons, with her own schemes and plans.

Trial 2: Break into Purgatory and slay a high ranking leader of Purgatory. Bam, they break into Purgatory and have to kill Dick AGAIN, for good. We all loved Dick, and it would have been nice to see him again, and get some real closure on the Leviathans, instead of the show pretending as if they never existed. We'd have got to see Purgatory and its power structure and dynamic of hiearchy. Before this season, I imagined Purgatory like a dark Ancient Egypt, with tiers of power, different clans and leaders. After actually seeing it on the show, it looks like a really lame, low budget forest with a gray lens cap use for dramatic "eery, gloomy" faux effect. It's certainly not the kind of place you imagine when you heard the leviathan in Season 7 tell a vampire that he's from a place "far worse than Hell."

Trial 3: Break into Heaven and slay a high ranking angel.Boom, pan to Naomi and all the stuff we've scene with her secret room in Heaven, and imagine the boys navigating Heaven again, seeing some old friends from the past, the way they did in the other episode of Heaven, and getting a little help from them, and perhaps one of them dying (for good) in the battle, making it more epic and raising the stakes, as well as potentially setting up some lore for future season.

So bam. Look at all that logical consistency and flavor. Kill the leader of Hell (despite Crowley being the "king" of hell, it could have easily been explained that he's not actually the official leader/king of Hell, but just the person wielding all the power (think British Parliament vs. the Queen... Crowley is Parliament, and Abaddon is the Queen.). Kill the leader of Purgatory. Kill the leader of Heaven. Now THOSE are some freaking cool trials, that allow us to explore a lot of really cool places, concepts and characters.

I mean ****. I just shat that out in 5 minutes, and call me arrogant, but it's way better than what we're getting in my opinion. These trials in the show don't even have any logical consistency, nor do they, by any means, feel epic or difficult. Making Sam really sick as a way to illustrate the difficulty of the trials is a cop out, and doesn't actually raise any stakes or make the overall difficulty feel challenging. It just feels like bad writing.

[Dexter]

It is bad writing and yeah, your ideas are better than what we are actually watching. I probably would have abandoned this show a couple of years ago had it not been for the characters. The characters are keeping this show alive. The plot is a complete mess and the filler episodes are just forgettable at this point. And if Amelia comes back pregnant, you can expect some pretty nasty rants.

[The Magnificent One]

I mean think about this whole season, has anything *really* happened, has anything felt *really* important? Sure, closing the gates of hell *sounds epic* on paper, but it certainly hasn't felt that way this season.

No, why? Because the show has gone on for far too long. At this point, it feels pretty unnecessary to ***** about the fact that the show continued beyond the fifth season but the fact remains that it should have ended back then. It was a huge mistake not to end the show with "Swan Song" and neither Gamble or Carver has been able to prove that wrong. Sure, the show still delivers enjoyable episodes and sometimes they even surprise us with really good episodes but it still feels like everything that has happened post-apocalypse has been pointless. The story isn't interesting enough, the stakes aren't high enough. They can kill the brothers, send them to Purgatory, make them lose their minds or whatever but it never really gets interesting because we've seen it all before and we've seen it been done much better.

I agree with you Sotaris, the trials are a joke. The level of danger involving them is not nearly high enough and the way it's affecting Sam by making him sick feels ridiculously redundant. And yes, closing the gates of Hell looks like an epic arc on paper and if done right it probably could have been. But just like Dexter says the plot is a complete mess, the storylines are all over the place and it doesn't feel like it's really going anywhere. They should have made this the last season, closing the gates of Hell forever should have been a one-season arc and it should have been the final-season arc. They should've had this arc right after the Apocalypse. That would have been a logical way to follow up the fifth season. The major problem with this show post-Season 5 is that they tried to go bigger, they wanted to top the Apocalypse. But they didn't have a plan. You need a plan. Look at season 1-5. The show got bigger and the stakes got higher with every season, it was all building up to something and that's why the fifth season had that epic feel to it that this season and it's two predecessors lacks.

We all know that they're going for 10 seasons and let's face it, it'll probably happen. But if they want me, and I believe a lot of fans agree, to keep watching they seriously need to step up their game. The nostalgia-factor and the characters can only carry the show for so long. If there's not an obvious improvement next year I don't care how good the show used to be, if Carver and the writers don't get their sh!t together next season I'm done.

[Welling_is_pretty]

So this episode was really good, I thought!

The start with Kevin (I figured he was dreaming or it was a trick of some sort) and squirting Dean with the holy water gun was fun. But the way the boys were talking definitely made me think something was up (since when does Sam talk like Dean? "Special K?" "Godstone?"). The reveal that Crowley's 'directing' everything (and his little joke about 'he could have played Dean' was cute) was a nice thing.

Awwww, Dean mother henning Sam. So sweet! And did anyone else love the little touch of Sam holding onto the wall to get up stairs to view Kevin's email/video? Very nice.
Then Kevin's message. Ha, watching him blow up like that? Was great. I loved it. Of course he'd be super upset about everything and tell everyone to go to hell. And Dean's reaction was priceless as well.

So Garth is MIA? And Cas is in Santa Fe, hopping from Biggerson's (home of the pie bar!) to Biggerson's.

Sam getting all worked up and telling Dean not so say Indians (aww, that's our Sammy!).

Castiel is a "spanner in the works"? Makes me wonder, did God create him to be just that? Did God make Cas his 'monkey in the wrench' as it were? And one of the angels is now working for Crowley. Huh.

So now I'm confused. Sam's remembering things and recalls a trip he, Dean and Papa Winchester took to the Grand Canyon when the boys were kids (and Dean rode a farting donkey). Yet, in Croatoan Dean specifically says that he had never been to the Grand Canyon, in fact he wished he could see it before he dies. I realize that they left a tiny amount of wiggle room with Dean's "I barely remember that" but barely means he does remember it! So they've just Jossed that whole bit from before. Seriously, where is the continuity wrangler this season? Cause they've been messing up more lately than ever before!

Sam being all punch drunk or whatever and babbling reminded me of his scenes from Playthings.

Okay, melting down the blades to bullets and making an angel killing gun? May be the smartest thing Crowley has ever come up with. That is seriously clever.

So the tablets were meant for humanity? And Cas hid it inside himself (and with it gone does that mean Naomi can control him again?) and now Crowley's got it.

Awww alert again! Dean read to Sam when they were small children? And Dean read Sam Illustrated Comics--the King Arthur ones? I love it! And the reveal that Sam thought he was 'unclean' even then. So on some level he did know about the demon blood in him? And he thinks the trials/quest (how Arthurian!) will purify him?

Metatron. Why are the boys surprised that the angels are jerks? They've been shown time and time again. And that they sit out the war? Gabriel was doing the exact same thing until they talked him into joining their side.

And can I say that only Ben Edlund could write a line like the one about creating stories makes you God. Ah, Ben, never change!

Kevin saved (whoo!) and he even claimed the missing bit.

3rd trial is they have to 'cure a demon'? And they almost ran over Cas!

Team Free Will back together again to finish out the season! This one had a lot in it (I do have to wonder why they're putting so much of the Season 8 storyline in the bottom half of the season. Some of this could have been revealed/spread out earlier in the run, IMO.) but what I loved most were the 'awww' moments.

[Anno_Domini]

Exactly. That's the kind of lazy, inexperienced writing I'm talking about. It's as if they've plucked someone unfamiliar with the genre and Supernatural off the streets and put them in charge. And don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of Jeremy Carver and was super happy to hear the news when he replaced Gamble. But I'm starting to wonder if we were wrong about him, if we only thought he was so great because it *looked* as if he had done great work, but it was really Kripke or Singer that did the work we often attribute to our fondness for Jeremy. Perhaps Jeremy has good ideas, but not without the support of Kripke, or maybe he writes amazing standalone, monster of the week episodes, but can't handle large mythology story archs.

I mean think about this whole season, has anything *really* happened, has anything felt *really* important? Sure, closing the gates of hell *sounds epic* on paper, but it certainly hasn't felt that way this season. As you mentioned, these trials are seriously a joke. I would have expected something more along the lines of "Trial 1: Break into Hell and slay a Knight of Lucifer (then they would have broken into hell, and we'd have seen the background of hell/scenery of hell the way we did when they rescued Bobby, except they'd be battling there way through throngs of demons to get to Abaddon, who is atop a throne of bones and flesh, laughing maniacally. I mean we heard about how "many angels were lost" to rescue Dean from hell, and then Cas from Purgatory, and yet Sam strolls in like it's nothing, and finds exactly what he needs like it's nothing, despite Hell's massive size and despite past events. Abaddon was squandered and would have been much cooler as a leader and ruler of a sect of Hell, powerful and different than other demons, with her own schemes and plans.

Trial 2: Break into Purgatory and slay a high ranking leader of Purgatory. Bam, they break into Purgatory and have to kill Dick AGAIN, for good. We all loved Dick, and it would have been nice to see him again, and get some real closure on the Leviathans, instead of the show pretending as if they never existed. We'd have got to see Purgatory and its power structure and dynamic of hiearchy. Before this season, I imagined Purgatory like a dark Ancient Egypt, with tiers of power, different clans and leaders. After actually seeing it on the show, it looks like a really lame, low budget forest with a gray lens cap use for dramatic "eery, gloomy" faux effect. It's certainly not the kind of place you imagine when you heard the leviathan in Season 7 tell a vampire that he's from a place "far worse than Hell."

Trial 3: Break into Heaven and slay a high ranking angel.Boom, pan to Naomi and all the stuff we've scene with her secret room in Heaven, and imagine the boys navigating Heaven again, seeing some old friends from the past, the way they did in the other episode of Heaven, and getting a little help from them, and perhaps one of them dying (for good) in the battle, making it more epic and raising the stakes, as well as potentially setting up some lore for future season.

So bam. Look at all that logical consistency and flavor. Kill the leader of Hell (despite Crowley being the "king" of hell, it could have easily been explained that he's not actually the official leader/king of Hell, but just the person wielding all the power (think British Parliament vs. the Queen... Crowley is Parliament, and Abaddon is the Queen.). Kill the leader of Purgatory. Kill the leader of Heaven. Now THOSE are some freaking cool trials, that allow us to explore a lot of really cool places, concepts and characters.

I mean ****. I just shat that out in 5 minutes, and call me arrogant, but it's way better than what we're getting in my opinion. These trials in the show don't even have any logical consistency, nor do they, by any means, feel epic or difficult. Making Sam really sick as a way to illustrate the difficulty of the trials is a cop out, and doesn't actually raise any stakes or make the overall difficulty feel challenging. It just feels like bad writing.

Your trial ideas would be great...if the endgame was to seal away Heaven, Hell and Purgatory by visiting all three places for the trial. Killing a powerful monster in Purgatory or a powerful angel in Heaven to close the gates of Hell makes no sense.

[Sotaris]

Your trial ideas would be great...if the endgame was to seal away Heaven, Hell and Purgatory by visiting all three places for the trial. Killing a powerful monster in Purgatory or a powerful angel in Heaven to close the gates of Hell makes no sense.

No, you just need to spin it the right way. They need to kill each respective ruler of Heaven/Hell/Purgatory because they need to show they have experienced enough of each realm that they can be sure they're making the right choice in closing which door. You write into the tablets that only 1 of the 3 doors can be closed, and the trials are the same for all 3 doors, but with different words, or done in a different order. Thus, to close a door to any of them, you have to, as Metatron said, "know what you're doing, what you're undertaking, and what the consequences will be, and what the world will be like afterward" which you could only do by understanding each world, via killing each of its leaders.

Plus. 5 minutes.

[Antiagonist]

I agree that the trials could've been more epic, but it's not the first time an interesting concept was dropped or didn't live up to expectations. (Alphas, weapons of Heaven, what really happens to a monster soul after they die in purgatory, etc.)

I'm sure some of it is due to budget constraints, but politics, lack of imagination, and/or lazy writing may also play a factor.

That being said, I'm eagerly awaiting this season's "Carry On Wayward Son".

[SuperWalter]

MetaTron holds the wee little historical relevance of being the highest ranking angel in jewish mythology. And they make him out to be a weenie? Gimme Gabriel back please, he had real talent. Should have never killed Gabriel,and Bobby of course. These two guys need a father figure, lets face it. Bobby was their voice of reason. It feels like they are just wandering around without him. Think of having Bobby with all those books in the MoL bunker.

Oh, and Naomi does not a good "good villain" make. This season flirted with some epic mythology and arcs, but has seemingly fallen flat. Crowley needs to get juiced up and give the boys incentive to close the gates. Right now, he is a nazi obsessed "higher" level demon that is chock full of one liners and likes to torture things. This story needs Bobby, and a sense of urgency back. Right now, treading water is about what they are doing. God, I miss Kim Manners.

[LordOfDarkness]

Changing the trials to killing leaders in Heaven, Hell and Purgatory would have been great, but I think they already killed the leader of Purgatory, which was Eve not Dick. Dick was the leader of the Leviathan sure, but there were/are 10s of billions of souls separate from Leviathan in Purgatory and they belonged to Eve. She said that the reason she came to Earth was to change all humans thus making all souls go to her (it's all about the souls), by killing her they have made the same mess they made in Heaven and Hell by trapping the leaders of those two realms.

What concerns me most is the repercussions to closing Hell. There will still be evil people that would not have gotten into Heaven when they die and then there the people that are selling their souls with still active contracts with get out jail free cards (it would be interesting to see people somehow finding out about the boys trying to close the gates and they just start selling their souls left and right because they hope hell will be closed before their contact is up). But back to the point of this concern, won't they essentially just be making Hell on Earth? Where would reapers take souls that were meant for hell with no hell? The earthbound spirit population would skyrocket. Human souls aren't meant to go to Purgatory and Heaven doesn't just left anybody in, remember how people tricked by the Whore are going to hell, even though the angels know what she is doing? People are still gonna do evil things, so do these evil people get out of jail free and be left to continue doing evil things this time with supernatural powers as earthbound spirits? I thought maybe reapers can still take you to hell after it closes, but then that means the gates are not forever sealed and makes closing them less of a big deal. Reapers can be controlled by demons so if they have a way in or out I'm sure some demon will find out. So unless they make light of something being sealed forever, what happens to evil hell-bound souls without any hell to go to?

[SVfan26]

So unless they make light of something being sealed forever, what happens to evil hell-bound souls without any hell to go to?

Been wondering this, for awhile, myself. Its great they want to seal off Hell so demons can't get out anymore... but how do bad souls get 'put away' if its sealed off? Do they just go into nothingness, or wander the earth as ghosts for eternity, or go to a reserved area of Heaven for unworthy souls - or...???

[SuperWalter]

I'm pretty sure that nothing in the end will get sealed. In the end, Sam and Dean will make some cliffhanger decision that humans need heaven and hell, or chaos would ensue. I could see the end episode of the entire series with them in their Impala, off to gank the next demon, vamp or ghost (enter your favorite monster here). At least that is where I see it going.