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HERO and TRAVELER Official Re-Watch Thread, October 26th, 2012

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  • I didn't like the whole Veritas story much but I lived with it. I thought the Eternal (Doomsday coming down in the meteor carrying Kal-El's ship) explanation was reasonable to start with but fell away i.e. Lionel (and the members of Veritas) knew the Traveler was coming and had his men on the case at the crash site, but they grabbed Davis instead of Kal-El. Davis was then found to be an angry beast and cast out by Lionel as a kid. Why didn't Lionel then go back to the folks who found the meteor strike. Surely the LuthorCorp guys at the crash site saw the Kents (apparently not). Lionel and young Lex ended up in the truck with the Kents as Jono carried the ship back to the farm (but had to detour to SMC).

    With the Metropolis United Charities adoption business, surely Lionel would have put 2 and 2 together to realize Clark was the Traveler. But he showed no clear indication that he knew Clark was Kal-El until Season 5. This is where the retconn made least sense.
    Last edited by skully; 10-27-2012, 07:36 PM.

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    • Originally posted by skully
      With the Metropolis United Charities adoption business, surely Lionel would have put 2 and 2 together to realize Clark was the Traveler. But he showed no clear indication that he knew Clark was Kal-El until Season 5. This is where the retconn made least sense.
      This is where I have a serious problem. After the Kents found Kal-El, Lionel, desperatly searching for Lex, flagged them down. Jonathan helped Lionel find Lex. Lionel was disgusted by Lex's appearance (no hair), and Jonathan, disgusted by Lionel's disgust, had to carry Lex to the truck. Jonathan gave the Luthors a ride to the hospital. A grateful Lionel gave Jonathan his card, telling him if he ever needed anything, to contact him.
      Apparantly Jonathan did, as Lionel visited him not long afterwards, to have him sign papers for Lionel's bogus adoption service faking Clark's adoption. Lionel also forced Jonathan to agree to talk the Ross brothers out of not selling him their cream corn company (they had apparantly backed out after the pilot). So Lionel was always aware Clark came into the Kents' lives around the time of the meteor shower, as they couldn't go through normal channels to gain custody. All this is explained in a flashback when Jonathan fesses up to Clark about the circumstanses of his adoption, as jonathan's guilt over betraying Pete's dad and letting Lionel get a foohold in Smallville. The explanation is in a first or second season episode in which, I think, Chloe was interviewing the Kents for a profile on Clark for a school project (might have been the one where everyone had to tell her the truth).
      A good storyline, but retconned out of existence via Veritas. Not only would Lionel have realized right away that Clark was the Traveler and done whatever neccesary to get him (including having the Kents killed) he wouldn't need or care that the Ross brothers wanted out of the contract...as lex said, his visit to Smallville that day was a ruse.

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      • Originally posted by RightWingConspirator
        The explanation is in a first or second season episode in which, I think, Chloe was interviewing the Kents for a profile on Clark for a school project (might have been the one where everyone had to tell her the truth).
        It was two episodes. In the first they had a school project and Chloe looked into Clark's adoption (1x14 Zero). Then in season 2 Lex's half-brother's (Lucas) biological mother came into town claiming Clark was Lucas (she couldn't have known better) because Chloe was still looking into Clark's adoption (2x07 Lineage).

        The latter one was the one with the flashbacks and the explanation why Jonathan despises Lionel.

        Interestingly regarding these episodes is that there are a lot of small arcs in these early seasons that gave the show a feeling of roundness.

        For example: in 1x09 Rogue we meet Detective Phelan and he hints at a past with Lex. Then in 1x11 Hug the doctor who stitches up Kyle Tippet remarks on a knife wound in Club Zero. Then in 1x14 Zero we actually see what happened in that club and that Phelan was involved.

        Second example: As early as 1x08 Jitters Lionel hints at having met Jonathan before. Then in 1x14 Zero we learn that Lionel arranged the adoption and in 2x07 Lineage we learn why he did it.

        Third example: In episode 1x07 Craving the doctor who does a routine check on Lex remarks on his high white blood cell count. That topic come up again in 3x03 Extinction by both Chloe and Lex himself.


        By season 8 Clark can't even properly remember that the flower he gives Chloe for her wedding was given to him by her at the Spring Formal dance, not the Homecoming dance (he was busy being crucified during the Homecoming dance).

        Not to mention the 8472th retconning of the Sageeth prophecy when suddenly Davis becomes Sageeth.

        Also Clark notes in 1x01 Pilot that he remembers the castle being built. By season 8 the castle was already there when Lex and Davis played together "slay the dragon".
        Last edited by DJ Doena; 10-28-2012, 12:37 PM.

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        • Originally posted by DJ Doena
          It was two episodes. In the first they had a school project and Chloe looked into Clark's adoption (1x14 Zero). Then in season 2 Lex's half-brother's (Lucas) biological mother came into town claiming Clark was Lucas (she couldn't have known better) because Chloe was still looking into Clark's adoption (2x07 Lineage).

          The latter one was the one with the flashbacks and the explanation why Jonathan despises Lionel.

          Interestingly regarding these episodes is that there are a lot of small arcs in these early seasons that gave the show a feeling of roundness.

          For example: in 1x09 Rogue we meet Detective Phelan and he hints at a past with Lex. Then in 1x11 Hug the doctor who stitches up Kyle Tippet remarks on a knife wound in Club Zero. Then in 1x14 Zero we actually see what happened in that club and that Phelan was involved.

          Second example: As early as 1x08 Jitters Lionel hints at having met Jonathan before. Then in 1x14 Zero we learn that Lionel arranged the adoption and in 2x07 Lineage we learn why he did it.

          Third example: In episode 1x07 Craving the doctor who does a routine check on Lex remarks on his high white blood cell count. That topic come up again in 3x03 Extinction by both Chloe and Lex himself.


          By season 8 Clark can't even properly remember that the flower he gives Chloe for her wedding was given to him by her at the Spring Formal dance, not the Homecoming dance (he was busy being crucified during the Homecoming dance).

          Not to mention the 8472th retconning of the Sageeth prophecy when suddenly Davis becomes Sageeth.

          Also Clark notes in 1x01 Pilot that he remembers the castle being built. By season 8 the castle was already there when Lex and Davis played together "slay the dragon".
          Not only that, in the pilot (I think) Lex tells Clark Lionel had the castle shipped over from (I Think) Scotland stone by stone, just because he could, and that Lionel had never even been inside. Of course, if that happened, the orb (or whatever) that Lex finds in the mantle wouldn't be there. And, as you point out, by S8 we see Lionel hosting the Veritas members in the castle while Lex, Oliver and poor Patty play nearby.

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          • All excellent points, that clearly demonstrate that the rotating set of writers didn't follow the Smallville story anywhere nearly as closely as the fans did.

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            • Originally posted by skully
              All excellent points, that clearly demonstrate that the rotating set of writers didn't follow the Smallville story anywhere nearly as closely as the fans did.
              Usually that's what a show's "bible" is for. In it all relevant information grouped by topic are written down so that future writers have a guideline of the established history of the show. And if they want to retcon something they have a blueprint of what was told and they can try to find a way around it without actually contradicting established events.

              For example, such a bible would establish the character's ages from the start so that a certain headstone doesn't tell us that Chloe was born in 1987 and then only episodes later she becomes 18 in 2004. And then she has a birthday roughly four and a half years later. (Let's not even start with her age when her mother left.)

              Davis being attached to the ship is a retcon that works by itself. Veritas as a story? Not so much.

              Also it's a matter of where you're going with a retcon. For example, the pilot of Friends established that only Monica and Ross knew Rachel from before. Later all kinds of episodes created a backstory where Ross and Chandler went to college together and ran into Rachel and Monica. But because it's funny nobody cares.
              Last edited by DJ Doena; 10-28-2012, 11:44 PM.

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              • An example where it's done correctly.....in an episode of "Cheers" Fraiser mentions that his father is deceased. Of course, in the spin-off "Fraiser" the character's dad is not only alive, but in the main cast. When one of the "Cheers" characters visited, and said "Didn't you tell us..." Fraiser admitted he lied as at the time, he was not on speaking terms with his father.

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                • Originally posted by MrsK
                  Probably true. Odd, though, that Lex didn't mention that Lionel had stolen it from him.
                  Mention it to Pete? Dunno. Maybe Lex thought it was not relevant at all. I still think it interesting that with the amount of meteor infected (and others) he had at his disposal he would send Pete, who after all knew Clark's secret - and Lex knew that Pete knew Clark's secret as they already discussed after Lex saved him from the FBI guy. It looks to me as if Lex wanted it but he didn't want to involve people who don't already know Clark's secret.

                  Still, weren't the last few interactions between the two of them pretty hostile? After all, Lionel had forced Lana into a marriage with Lex to use her for information, and Lana had kidnapped Lionel... Certainly reason for some tension! All seems to be forgiven, though -
                  Yes. Because they all assume they are on the same side, Clark's side. It is not unusual for humans to behave in this odd fashion. An enemy of today can easily become a friend or ally tomorrow and vice versa. I mean, that is the whole problem with Lex. Lex isn't supposed to be on the side of Clark, because he is Sageeth, so they cannot treat him as friend or ally any more. They don't really treat him as an enemy, either, though. Lionel could have taken Luthorcorp back and send Lex to prison, Belle Reve, or kill him at any time. But he didn't.

                  just as Chloe evidently forgot about Lionel trying to blow her up and celebrated Thanksgiving with him with apparently no hard feelings!
                  To be fair he provided her with valuable information in the meantime, and even saved her life on Dark Thursday.

                  To be fair to CLark, he expressed a desire to tell her but then let Lionel and Lana talk him out of it. It would be a difficult story for her to believe, especially with no powers at the time.
                  Clark could have shown her his powers. That should have been proof enough.

                  I think Tippet killed Rickman in self-defense. Rickman was going to kill him, and there wasn't much opportunity for Kyle to knock him out.
                  Not really. Rickman waited for Lex to finish Clark and Tippet. Then Tippet appoached Rickman, not the other way round. Tippet could have alerted the police, he could have alerted Chloe. And when they fought he also could have given Rickman another order than to kill himself. He could have tried to draw Rickman away. There are countless possibilities but he chose to kill him, even though he knew that he was infected, ill.

                  I certainly didn't get the impression that he was going to go on a meteor-induced killing spree.
                  It never started that way. The infected first acted in a way one would think it plausible and become more and more psychotic with time and use of their power.

                  Exactly. Although the Pete in S3 was like that on occasion - though to a lesser degree.
                  In some ways the meteor infection is similar to how red-k influenced Clark or the nicodemus flower humans. They do not change completely, but they loose inhibitions and one desire that had been one among many before became suddenly their only and all important goal. Pete never liked Lex because he was jealous of his friendship with Clark and because he was a Luthor. But he only tried to kill him when influenced either by kryptonite or the Nicodemus flower. Pete was always envious of Clark but this only influenced his behaviour when infected.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MrsK
                    I thought he didn't need to be "cured" since he wasn't permanently infected; he only had the powers when he was actually chewing the gum. Regardless, I don't think a stay at 33.1 would have done Pete any good.
                    We never actually get to know how this kind of infection worked. But we saw in other cases (such as the gang that hired Whitney to move through walls) that even while they didn't have the powers their mind was influenced and their inhibitions reduced. It seemed to have a similar effect on them like a drug. I think Pete is not clean just because he decides to not take it for a few days. The addiction might return, especially as he is not living in Smallville any more. Not eating contaminated food, drinking contaminated water, and breathing contaminated air every day. I would love to peek into the results of the research of 33.1. It would explain a lot in the series.

                    Pete should be aware without having to be warned. He knows what Lex is capable of, and he has never liked or trusted Lex. Although Lex really has no use for Pete at this point, unless it would be to get at Clark's secret (which you assert he already knows anyway), so why go after him now?
                    I think Lex knows, yes, but the characters act as if they believe he does not. On the other hand, they think that they are save from Lex because of Clark. One cannot have it both ways, either Lex is not attacking them because he fears Clark's response, or he does not know about Clark's secret in which case one has to ask "why does he hold back?". Lex might have no reason to question Pete for Clark's secret because he already knows more than Pete, but does Pete know this? The power Lex has in season seven (even able to fire Agent Carter, meaning large parts of the secret services and the government - and likely even the army considering what we now saw in Guardian - stand in awe of him) Pete is not save from Lex by going on tour with a band. And while Pete might not know it at least Chloe and Clark should. Still, we don't see them asking Ollie to hide and protect Pete, right? He even walks uncaringly though the DP, owned by Lex.


                    I think Lionel still would have looked like the bad guy. His actions in this episode are not justified by the reasons he gives.
                    Are they not? Think of what happend when the phantom that became Bizarro found Clark. Jor Lionel tried to keep Clark from him because they knew he would be almost invincible if he ever saw Clark. Think of what happend when Edward Teague learned Clark's identity: Clark was almost killed. The problem with Clark is that he is not careful at all but believes himself invincible and rushes into danger without thinking and planning first. And he never listens to advice, either. Lionel didn't expect Patty to be behind the threats. He expected Edward, whom he knew had killed Dr. Swann and Bridget Crosby. And whom he knew didn't trust the Traveler but wanted to destroy him. And whom he knew had been the assistant of Dr. Swann and knew how to destroy Clark. Preventing Clark from rushing into danger and getting himself killed by an enemy who knew more about him than Clark himself probably seemed the only option to Lionel and Jor El. Lionel only chose the wrong guy to keep Clark prisoner. He should have trusted Lex had reason to fire him.

                    Are they, though? They just say she has to trust them and come with them. She has no reason not to trust Lex at this point,even believes that he is going to help her, but she willingly goes with Lana and Chloe, no questions asked.
                    But they told her that they would tell her EVERYTHING if she came with them. I think that is why she went.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by skully
                      A few brief comments:

                      Hero:

                      - Stretching power?? This is the Great Smallville, not a cartoon.

                      Stretching power was already mentioned by Chloe in the first seasons. Some guy who repaired cars if I recall correctly. He was killed by that guy who also tried to kill Lex due to Chloe's list of meteor freaks.


                      Traveler:

                      - Pierce was ridiculously angry, with a barely plausible motive.
                      I thougth so, too, and actually wondered if he was meteor infected himself. But maybe he had just really really bad experience with meteor freaks.

                      - I like Patty Swann's introduction and links to her father's legacy, and would've liked her to be around for a while to mentor Clark.
                      I would have liked her to be around, yes, but not to mentor Clark. That would have been a disaster, IMO.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RightWingConspirator
                        This is where I have a serious problem. After the Kents found Kal-El, Lionel, desperatly searching for Lex, flagged them down. Jonathan helped Lionel find Lex. Lionel was disgusted by Lex's appearance (no hair), and Jonathan, disgusted by Lionel's disgust, had to carry Lex to the truck. Jonathan gave the Luthors a ride to the hospital. A grateful Lionel gave Jonathan his card, telling him if he ever needed anything, to contact him.
                        Apparantly Jonathan did,
                        According to what Tess read in Lionel's journal it was Martha who called him regarding the adoption. After that Lionel send Davis away writing "I have the wrong boy".

                        as Lionel visited him not long afterwards, to have him sign papers for Lionel's bogus adoption service faking Clark's adoption. Lionel also forced Jonathan to agree to talk the Ross brothers out of not selling him their cream corn company (they had apparantly backed out after the pilot). So Lionel was always aware Clark came into the Kents' lives around the time of the meteor shower, as they couldn't go through normal channels to gain custody.
                        And with Lionel's curiousity and him actually wanting Jonathan to do things for him I always wondered why he never tried to find out where Clark really came from.

                        All this is explained in a flashback when Jonathan fesses up to Clark about the circumstanses of his adoption, as jonathan's guilt over betraying Pete's dad and letting Lionel get a foohold in Smallville. The explanation is in a first or second season episode in which, I think, Chloe was interviewing the Kents for a profile on Clark for a school project (might have been the one where everyone had to tell her the truth).
                        A good storyline, but retconned out of existence via Veritas. Not only would Lionel have realized right away that Clark was the Traveler and done whatever neccesary to get him (including having the Kents killed) he wouldn't need or care that the Ross brothers wanted out of the contract...as lex said, his visit to Smallville that day was a ruse.
                        I think the cream factory was a ruse, but a necessary one. Lionel kept it no matter what. He didn't need it for Luthorcorp, especially as it was not all that sucessful in financial terms, but he needed it as a cover for being interested in Smallville. He knew where the Traveler was but he didn't want the other members of Veritas to know. If the Kents died in a suspicious way and he adopted Clark they all would have known. Also, as we know Lionel always liked the Kents because he thought they were like his wife: good. Vertitas foretelling that the powerful alien will either save or destroy Earth it would be logical for him to let them keep Clark instead of raising him in his dysfunctional family himself.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DJ Doena
                          Interestingly regarding these episodes is that there are a lot of small arcs in these early seasons that gave the show a feeling of roundness.
                          I liked that very much.

                          For example: in 1x09 Rogue we meet Detective Phelan and he hints at a past with Lex. Then in 1x11 Hug the doctor who stitches up Kyle Tippet remarks on a knife wound in Club Zero. Then in 1x14 Zero we actually see what happened in that club and that Phelan was involved.
                          And it was quite a pattern that bad people like Phelan told Lex that he would "never hurt anybody again" and told Clark about how evil Lex was. It was so interesting because these people tried to show Lex in a bad light and later it turned out that he actually tried to save people (like that girl who shot her finacee) by taking the blame of their crimes.

                          Not to mention the 8472th retconning of the Sageeth prophecy when suddenly Davis becomes Sageeth.
                          I think this was only to include Veritas again into the storyline. It was only Tess who thought it and she didn't know about the starblade and that Lex was dead. The members of Veritas considered Lex to be Sageeth.

                          Also Clark notes in 1x01 Pilot that he remembers the castle being built. By season 8 the castle was already there when Lex and Davis played together "slay the dragon".
                          That striked even me as odd.

                          Then again was the castle shown to be in Kansas? Maybe it was in the hand of Lionel already and they played on that island.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RightWingConspirator
                            Not only that, in the pilot (I think) Lex tells Clark Lionel had the castle shipped over from (I Think) Scotland stone by stone, just because he could, and that Lionel had never even been inside. Of course, if that happened, the orb (or whatever) that Lex finds in the mantle wouldn't be there. And, as you point out, by S8 we see Lionel hosting the Veritas members in the castle while Lex, Oliver and poor Patty play nearby.
                            I think that was Lex's interpretation of why Lionel brought over from Scotland. Truthfully, even if he could, it doesn't really make sense that he would. If you remember in season 7 Lex says that he lost years due to damage from the meteor shower. Lex didn't remember Lionel or himself ever being in there. The orb is actually not in a stone, but in the fireflace, which appears to be something that would be put in separately.

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