#8.10 "Torn and Frayed"

[devlin]

You don't buy the logic because you clearly don't understand my point. I'm not saying there's a "rule" or "guideline" that states only Sam and Dean need to be the only survivors by the time the series ends, but the fact that a stronger character that meant more to the series, Bobby, died recently, it shows that someone less important, imo, shouldn't be able to be there when the series ends. It's pretty much selfish to kill off a more important character since almost the beginning but only keep another character just because a group of fans adore the character. Castiel continuing on from what was supposed to be a recurring role in season four was fine but now the character is just being used as a plot device now.

And yes, we will see what the writers end up doing with Cas this season, but I really hope they make the right decisions. Sera Gamble made a bold move actually killing off Bobby and took a few steps back with using Ghost!Bobby, so hopefully Carver can stand firm if he does choose to kill off Castiel.

IMO your logic still doesn't fly--sorry we'll have to disagree. I understand your point and your further explanation but just because Bobby died and was slightly more significant(and that's debatable) than Cas doesn't mean therefore they need to kill Cas too. And why they have kept Cas is only a guess on your part. IMO most fans like Sam, Dean, Cas and the late Bobby--not just a small group.

And i'd submit ultimately the writers disagree with you saying Cas is just a plot point and keep him because they think the character is an important part of the show and works well with their story. Otherwise he'd be gone. With the future neither of us knows the intent of Carver but my vibe is Cas survives Purgatory. And is it your guess, Cas dies? I kinda suspect you may think he survives too.

[devlin]

I am watching the series again from the beginning. In my opinion the strongest seasons by far were 4 and 5 with both Castiel and Bobby...there were plenty of other recurring characters to keep it fascinating. Even though I know what happens in Swan Song it is still riveting story telling. Season 6 is still extremely good, although I am fighting my disappointment and frustration because I know Castiel goes dark side and disappears and Bobby eventually dies. But then this is the season that brought The French Mistake (awesome)....Season 7 has been out for a week and yet I haven't rushed out to buy it. I will watch the cliffhanger again in anticipation of Season 8, but I am really praying that Carver takes me back to that dynamic that seasons 4 and 5 held for me. The Leviathan story was boring IMO, although I dearly loved Dick Roman. The BEST episodes IMO were the last few with all the players....Sam, Dean, Bobby, Cas, Meg and Crowley (and Lucifer in there too was just icing on the cake)...

The characters and how they are interacting with Sam and Dean are what make the story IMO. And I don't believe that either brother survives in the end.

Exactly...the show was best with the vibrant supporting characters ,led by Bobby and Cas, interacting with the boys.

[The Magnificent One]

...just because Bobby died and was slightly more significant(and that's debatable)

No, it's not.

[Anu]

Have you been watching the wrong show? Cas is more important and better character than Bobby.

[devlin]

No, it's not.

I'd put Bobby a little ahead of Cas in significance overall but I could see the other side. And sure it's debatable regardless of strong assertions on either side.

[devlin]

Have you been watching the wrong show? Cas is more important and better character than Bobby.

They are both important--personal preference is just individual taste.

[The Magnificent One]

Have you been watching the wrong show? Cas is more important and better character than Bobby.

No, I have been watching Supernatural unlike you who I suppose have been watching The Chronicles of Castiel.

[Anu]

No, I have been watching Supernatural unlike you who I suppose have been watching The Chronicles of Castiel.

Seriously?

[gmster]

No, I have been watching Supernatural unlike you who I suppose have been watching The Chronicles of Castiel.

Spinoff time.

Seriously, though. I like Cas. But, his credibility as a character has been screwed over by Sera Gamble. Now, it's either you love him to death or hate him to death. Any debate about him between hardcore fans turns into a *****fest. It's sad.

[Anno_Domini]

IMO your logic still doesn't fly--sorry we'll have to disagree. I understand your point and your further explanation but just because Bobby died and was slightly more significant(and that's debatable) than Cas doesn't mean therefore they need to kill Cas too. And why they have kept Cas is only a guess on your part. IMO most fans like Sam, Dean, Cas and the late Bobby--not just a small group.

And i'd submit ultimately the writers disagree with you saying Cas is just a plot point and keep him because they think the character is an important part of the show and works well with their story. Otherwise he'd be gone. With the future neither of us knows the intent of Carver but my vibe is Cas survives Purgatory. And is it your guess, Cas dies? I kinda suspect you may think he survives too.

Once more, it's not "logic". That is probably why you think it doesn't "fly", haha.

Plus...Bobby being more significant is NOT debatable. He's a human with every single emotion tugging at his sleeve which is what Supernatural was/is all about: humanity. To rank an angel above is "logic" that I would say does not "fly".

And also, how can you disagree that Castiel isn't a plot device? The past two seasons have been just that, using Castiel as a plot device in bringing out the souls from Purgatory, rescuing Sam's body from Lucifer's Cage and even "erasing" Halucifer from Sam's mind. He's been more of a plot device than ever before. At least he was fun to watch in seasons four and five. That's why he's got to go as he's become more of a plot device than an enjoyable character, imo.

Exactly...the show was best with the vibrant supporting characters ,led by Bobby and Cas, interacting with the boys.

Vibrant supporting characters? Do you know which season started that trend? Season two with the Harvelles and Ash. Supernatural can go on with interesting characters.

Have you been watching the wrong show? Cas is more important and better character than Bobby.

Castiel only became more important when he was the one the boys run to to solve their problems.

No, I have been watching Supernatural unlike you who I suppose have been watching The Chronicles of Castiel.

Supernatural's spin-off. Screw that idea of the Wild West or Ghostfacers....follow Castiel as he travels to different galaxies in search for God, lol.

This is not me being a jerk to Castiel or Misha Collins. Misha is an amazing actor and Divine: The Series is an extraordinary show, but I find it about time that the writers do something to Castiel. I don't find him necessary anymore.

[The Magnificent One]

Exactly...the show was best with the vibrant supporting characters ,led by Bobby and Cas, interacting with the boys.

I am all for supporting characters but I agree with Anno, Castiel is now nothing but a plot device. I like Misha and I think that Castiel was a great addition to the show, he was absolutely badass in Season 4 and I liked him in Season 5 as well but I think that they've done everything they can with the character.

Hopefully Castiel won't return from Purgatory and we'll only see him in flashbacks. Has there been any talk on how many episodes he will appear in? I recall reading somewhere that Misha said he was going to be in 8 episodes, has there been any confirmation on this?

[devlin]

Once more, it's not "logic". That is probably why you think it doesn't "fly", haha.

Plus...Bobby being more significant is NOT debatable. He's a human with every single emotion tugging at his sleeve which is what Supernatural was/is all about: humanity. To rank an angel above is "logic" that I would say does not "fly".

And also, how can you disagree that Castiel isn't a plot device? The past two seasons have been just that, using Castiel as a plot device in bringing out the souls from Purgatory, rescuing Sam's body from Lucifer's Cage and even "erasing" Halucifer from Sam's mind. He's been more of a plot device than ever before. At least he was fun to watch in seasons four and five. That's why he's got to go as he's become more of a plot device than an enjoyable character, imo.



Vibrant supporting characters? Do you know which season started that trend? Season two with the Harvelles and Ash. Supernatural can go on with interesting characters.





Castiel only became more important when he was the one the boys run to to solve their problems.



Supernatural's spin-off. Screw that idea of the Wild West or Ghostfacers....follow Castiel as he travels to different galaxies in search for God, lol.

This is not me being a jerk to Castiel or Misha Collins. Misha is an amazing actor and Divine: The Series is an extraordinary show, but I find it about time that the writers do something to Castiel. I don't find him necessary anymore.

By logic I mean your inner logic that since Bobby was killed(and to you is more important), Cas must be killed. That might sense to you but it doesn't necessarily follow.

It is totally debatable if Cas or Bobby is a more important character--next to the boys these 2 characters have been on the show the most by far and are both integrated into the boys world. So yes it's debatable. Just because Bobby is human isn't really a deciding factor.

Cas has had his own personal trajectory the last couple of years going down the route of hell being paved with good intentions and dealing with almost absolute power then dealing with the craziness from Sam AND also dealing with his strained friendship especially with Dean. So he has had much more than just plot points.

With regards to vibrant characters I love seasons 1 thru 5--so they all have that though IMO it got even better in season 4. With regards to Cas not being relevant--don't buy that at all. He's a long term character on the show with long history with the boys and is an interesting character. I suspect the writers are smart enough to see that and we'll see Cas back alive.

Regardless we can keep going back and forth but it will solve nothing--it's just a couple of opinions that don't agree.

[Castielle]

Castiel is by far my favorite character in the series, and I'll be heartbroken if he's killed off again. Just because Gamble didn't seem to know what to do with him in seasons 6 and 7 doesn't necessarily mean the new showrunner, Jeremy Carver, will be clueless as to how to seamlessly incorporate Castiel into the story arc for this season. I think season 7 showed it was a mistake to get rid of all the beloved support characters of the show, and I think, so far, Carver is on the right track in repopulating in the world with new characters that will hopefully prove to be interesting. Castiel is one of the few recurring ones they left, and a very popular one with great story potential. We also know angels are going to be back this season, and if there's going to be angels, there's certainly going to be a role for Castiel, and I sincerely hope there always will be.

I know I'm not the only fan of Castiel, and it seems to me when a show has a character that is loved by a lot of people, and is bringing in new fans (I became a fan of the show last year directly because of him) it would be smart of the showrunners to find a way to continue to have that character be a part of the show. I hope those who hate Castiel and want him gone are in the minority. Should Carver choose to get rid of him for good, I guess I'll just find another show to watch then, but I'd really rather be able to enjoy this show all the way through season 10.

[Castielle]

Castiel is by far my favorite character in the series, and I'll be heartbroken if he's killed off again. Just because Gamble didn't seem to know what to do with him in seasons 6 and 7 doesn't necessarily mean the new showrunner, Jeremy Carver, will be clueless as to how to seamlessly incorporate Castiel into the story arc for this season. I think season 7 showed it was a mistake to get rid of all the beloved support characters of the show, and I think, so far, Carver is on the right track in repopulating in the world with new characters that will hopefully prove to be interesting. Castiel is one of the few recurring ones they left, and a very popular one with great story potential. We also know angels are going to be back this season, and if there's going to be angels, there's certainly going to be a role for Castiel, and I sincerely hope there always will be.

I know I'm not the only fan of Castiel, and it seems to me when a show has a character that is loved by a lot of people, and is bringing in new fans (I became a fan of the show last year directly because of him) it would be smart of the showrunners to find a way to continue to have that character be a part of the show. I hope those who hate Castiel and want him gone are in the minority. Should Carver choose to get rid of him for good, I guess I'll just find another show to watch then, but I'd really rather be able to enjoy this show all the way through season 10.

[Anno_Domini]

I am all for supporting characters but I agree with Anno, Castiel is now nothing but a plot device. I like Misha and I think that Castiel was a great addition to the show, he was absolutely badass in Season 4 and I liked him in Season 5 as well but I think that they've done everything they can with the character.

Hopefully Castiel won't return from Purgatory and we'll only see him in flashbacks. Has there been any talk on how many episodes he will appear in? I recall reading somewhere that Misha said he was going to be in 8 episodes, has there been any confirmation on this?

Eight episodes so far from what I know and that Cas shows up in episode 2 first and then again in episode 5.

By logic I mean your inner logic that since Bobby was killed(and to you is more important), Cas must be killed. That might sense to you but it doesn't necessarily follow.

Didn't quite mean it like that. Only stating since a more important character died, I don't understand the reasoning of keeping a lesser important that has been dwindled down to just a plot device.

It is totally debatable if Cas or Bobby is a more important character--next to the boys these 2 characters have been on the show the most by far and are both integrated into the boys world. So yes it's debatable. Just because Bobby is human isn't really a deciding factor.

It isn't debatable at all because Bobby acted and was a father figure to Sam and Dean. I don't see how an angel is more important or more significant to anybody over a father figure on the series.

Cas has had his own personal trajectory the last couple of years going down the route of hell being paved with good intentions and dealing with almost absolute power then dealing with the craziness from Sam AND also dealing with his strained friendship especially with Dean. So he has had much more than just plot points.

And realistically, all of that "personal trajectory" ended up working as him being some plot device to further the storyline.

With regards to vibrant characters I love seasons 1 thru 5--so they all have that though IMO it got even better in season 4. With regards to Cas not being relevant--don't buy that at all. He's a long term character on the show with long history with the boys and is an interesting character. I suspect the writers are smart enough to see that and we'll see Cas back alive.

I don't see how it got better just because Castiel showed up. Granted, season five and four are my personal favorite seasons, but that's not because of only Castiel. The 66 Seals, the Apocalypse...those are the elements that made those seasons my favorite, but season two was where it was at, imo, when it came to vibrant characters. I only wished Ash and the Harvelles showed up more than they did.

And how could we really say the writers are smart enough to do something to Castiel when Sera Gamble obviously couldn't? She was part of the series when Castiel first showed up so I can't put the blame solely on Gamble for messing up Cas. Imo, Carver needs to do the wise thing and just cut ties with Castiel.