REUNION and FALLOUT Official Re-Watch Thread, July 13th, 2012

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

That is not correct. Laws are established to keep a certain stability of society and culture. Laws and rules are no absolutes.

1) Why are students not allowed to look at the answers of exams before the exams?

2) Why are students not allowed to steal money from other students or the teachers?

3) Who would have been hurt if Dunan and Lex simply had let Ollie and his gang know the answers?

4) Who would have been hurt if you had let that dude in your school steal and keep the money?

Duncan betrayed Lex in the first scene. Lex was ready to fight against Ollie for Dunan's! comic, but Duncan was not willing to back him up. That is not a friend in my book. A friend is loyal to me, even when times are hard. Ollie was in the wrong by destroying Duncan's comic, and Lex right in attacking Ollie to get the comic back. But Duncan deserted Lex. Why? In that final scene where Lex beat Duncan, we see that Duncan only wanted Lex as friend because Lex did always did what Duncan wanted. Even letting himself being ridiculed by all his schoolmates.

Words can hurt, too. And Ollie uses words as weapons just as as arrows.

Agreed, laws aren't absolutes. But you also seem to imply there's no moral reasons behind certain laws. They aren't made just for convinience sake.

1) I think it makes the test pointless. Sounds like taking notes to me like any other class where you're been taught

2) It's wrong, you don't take other peoples belongings. If that doesn't concern you then it's also against the law.

3) Duncan and Lex would have been in the same boat with Ollie. If the truth would have come out it would have affected them too. Suppose the cheating became a pattern, they wouldn't have learned anything and it would caught on somewhere down the line. Maybe Ollie would make Duncan and Lex do favors since they're in the same boat now. That or dozens of other unforeseeable reasons.

4) How can you even ask that? For some it might be pocket money, for others it could be a difference of a day's meal. One dude at our school couldn't spend 2 euros for school photos.

Duncan being too weak to fight back can't really be hold against him. The bullies are bigger and outnumber them. Saying Duncan betrayed Lex is outright ludicrous. Out of all the people you side with Lex who turned out to be a pathetic black mailer and someone who beat his only real friend. It lead Duncan into a coma! You have a weird notion that might makes right since you seem to sympathize with Lex trying to be the top dog no matter what.

Let me repeat myself yet again. Ollie doesn't bully people without reason. He doesn't get violent without a purpose. He "attacked" at Lex because he knew what he was like. A double crossing piece of human garbage who can beat his best friend into a bloody pulp if they disagree with him or stop Lex from gaining a better position no matter what laughable social status they are fighting for. Not to mention Lex's 33.1 projects. Oliver lashed out to Lois the worst when she was writing about the Green Arrow. Oliver Queen is a liberal, he has strong opinions. But he doesn't attack people on a personal level (other than Lex maybe) like he did as a bully.

[Freawaru]

1) I think it makes the test pointless. Sounds like taking notes to me like any other class where you're been taught

2) It's wrong, you don't take other peoples belongings. If that doesn't concern you then it's also against the law.

3) Duncan and Lex would have been in the same boat with Ollie. If the truth would have come out it would have affected them too. Suppose the cheating became a pattern, they wouldn't have learned anything and it would caught on somewhere down the line. Maybe Ollie would make Duncan and Lex do favors since they're in the same boat now. That or dozens of other unforeseeable reasons.

4) How can you even ask that? For some it might be pocket money, for others it could be a difference of a day's meal. One dude at our school couldn't spend 2 euros for school photos.

I asked it because I hoped you see the answer to your question yourself. The difference between the two situations and choices - yours and Duncan's - is that in the case of what Ollie did only Ollie and his gang would have been hurt - as you said - because they wouldn't learn. The reason for the school rule is that the idea of school is that it's pupils learn something. In the case of you and your friend however, the situation is completely different. The one who was stolen from would have been hurt. The reason for such a rule is that everybody maintains one's own property.

That is why what you and your friend did was noble. You chose to put the need of a stranger, namely whoever owned the money, before your own needs (let's face it one cannot have enough money, right? so what you did was noble.). But what Duncan wanted to do was selfish because he didn't put somebody elses needs before his own at all. In fact, he acted out of revenge, namely to get Ollie expelled.

Duncan being too weak to fight back can't really be hold against him. The bullies are bigger and outnumber them.

That is no argument. Lana hit that guy who wanted to rape her - and she was half his size. In fact, Lana put herself twice into mortal danger to save Lois' life from whom one can savely consider as overpowering adversaries (the "terminator" send by Lionel and the two Kryptonians in the hospital). Both Lex and Ollie shielded somebody they loved with their own body, expecting to take a bullet. And I am not even going to start about what Clark does even without superpowers. And before you say that this is fiction and not reality: I was about the age of Duncan when I went in between fighting dogs. And I don't mean the Chiwawa kind of dogs but full grown sheep-hounds who could tear me apart with their jaws. Got me lots of reprimands by my parents (and rightly so, I really don't recommend it to anybody because it is really dangerous) but I cared for the dogs and didn't want them to hurt or even kill each other. If one really cares for somebody (or even animals) one does this kind of thing: risking oneself being hurt to save them. And, yes, I would have done this kind of thing for my friends at school, too. But maybe the other kids sensed it somehow as I was only attacked physically once (verbally is a different story) and it ended quite shocking for the attacker. Never happened again. And before you assume now that I am some kind of muscled power guy, my stature while at school was a bit like Lana's - just not as pretty.

What do you expect Ollie would have done to Duncan if he has just stayed by Lex's side and demanded the comic back? Kill him? Even if it came to a physical fight there is a small chance that Duncan would have recieved worse hurts than some bruises. Duncan wanted to become a lawyer - but he didn't even had the courage to fight Ollie with words. Never watched "Ally MacBeal", I guess.

No, I can't see Duncan as a friend to anybody but himself. He was selfish and a coward who didn't even care enough for his only friend to back him up against some teenagers. He never understood the message of comics, namely to put the needs of others before your own.

[Karafan1]

I had momentary romantic high hopes for the big guy when Raya showed up.

I sucked that Raya couldn't have lasted for a season!!!

100% agreed.

Agreed also!!!! I was hoping she'd be around the rest of the season too! Somebody Clark could talk to about his home planet and his parents.. And one of the few people he wouldn't have to lie to all the time!

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

Ollie and his gang would have been hurt - as you said - because they wouldn't learn. The reason for the school rule is that the idea of school is that it's pupils learn something. In the case of you and your friend however, the situation is completely different. The one who was stolen from would have been hurt.

But what Duncan wanted to do was selfish because he didn't put somebody elses needs before his own at all. In fact, he acted out of revenge, namely to get Ollie expelled.

Lana hit that guy who wanted to rape her - and she was half his size. In fact, Lana put herself twice into mortal danger to save Lois' life from whom one can savely consider as overpowering adversaries (the "terminator" send by Lionel and the two Kryptonians in the hospital). Both Lex and Ollie shielded somebody they loved with their own body, expecting to take a bullet. And I am not even going to start about what Clark does even without superpowers. And before you say that this is fiction and not reality: I was about the age of Duncan when I went in between fighting dogs.

What do you expect Ollie would have done to Duncan if he has just stayed by Lex's side and demanded the comic back? Kill him? Even if it came to a physical fight there is a small chance that Duncan would have recieved worse hurts than some bruises. Duncan wanted to become a lawyer - but he didn't even had the courage to fight Ollie with words. Never watched "Ally MacBeal", I guess.

No, I can't see Duncan as a friend to anybody but himself. He was selfish and a coward who didn't even care enough for his only friend to back him up against some teenagers. He never understood the message of comics, namely to put the needs of others before your own.

I guess the situations were different. However the guy who took the wallet did get into trouble because we told about him. Don't remember how much detention he got. So essentially he got "hurt".

Okay I can admit that Duncan was angry towards Oliver & co. He could have wanted revenge but even still I just didn't see Duncan vindictive. He was the sort of dude who wouldn't hurt a fly. That's just me though. And given how Ollie and his friends were school bullies and Lex had just joined them in the cover up I can't see how Duncan would have put their needs above what needed to be done. They weren't little kids, they knew what they were doing was wrong.

And one could argue that without Oliver in the picture Lex wouldn't have to "pretend" being his friend. Both Duncan AND Lex won't be bullied again. It might include other kids as well. So while Lex didn't see the benefit in it, he too would have been a lot better off without hanging out with douches like Ollie and his friends. Plus, in extreme cases, bullying can lead to suicides. Still not saying Duncan was vindictive and his later actions are explained by his conditions...but if Oliver's and his pals actions would have lead kids like Duncan to doing school shootings...well, enough said. It's good to stop it before it gets out of hand no matter if the reason at hand for their expelling is for bullying or stolen test results.

Like you said it yourself, Duncan wasn't in mortal danger. He wasn't going to be raped either. He obviously took the bullying but couldn't retort back verbally or physically. Duncan wanted to be a lawyer and I guess breaking in and stealing something got him deciding that enough is enough.

Heroes put other peoples needs before their own but that doesn't include when they're doing stupid stuff. If that's too harsh you could also see them getting expelled a good thing. They'd probably think twice about bullying and stealing test results at their new schools. They weren't from poor families either like Duncan was. He works hard on a scholarship (was it?) while the others got it more easier. Whatever Duncan does they'll land on their feet. If not through education then by their trust funds.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Agreed also!!!! I was hoping she'd be around the rest of the season too! Somebody Clark could talk to about his home planet and his parents.. And one of the few people he wouldn't have to lie to all the time!

That would have been cool. They were a lot more friendlier towards each other than how it was with Kara a season later.

[DJ Doena]

That would have been cool. They were a lot more friendlier towards each other than how it was with Kara a season later.

To be honest; I thought she lectured him too much. One of my problems with Jor-El is that he wanted to force Clark to become Earth's protector.

Some argue that Smallville was a bad incarnation of Superman because Clark had to be "carried" to become Superman. Well, maybe that was caused by his birth father who pushed him with all his might in this direction and it's just a natural reaction to push back.

And Raya was enforcing this. She practically scolded him like a school boy when he hadn't started his training yet or got the fortress damaged. The fortress got damaged because Clark got tricked by Brainiac into "killing" him with the dagger. But what would the alternative narrative of Vessel have been? Jor-El gives Clark the dagger and Clark kills Lex in cold blood? Is that the Superman we want?

[MrsK]

To be honest; I thought she lectured him too much. One of my problems with Jor-El is that he wanted Clark to force to become Earth's protector.

Some argue that Smallville was a bad incarnation of Superman because Clark had to be "carried" to become Superman. Well, maybe that was cause by his birth father who pushed him with all his might in this direction and it's just a natural reaction to push back.

And Raya was enforcing this. She practically scolded him like a school boy when he hadn't started his training yet or got the fortress damaged. The fortress got damaged because Clark got tricked by Brainiac into "killing" him with the dagger. But what would the alternative narrative of Vessel have been? Jor-El gives Clark the dagger and Clark kills Lex in cold blood? Is that the Superman we want?

I agree.

[Freawaru]

I guess the situations were different. However the guy who took the wallet did get into trouble because we told about him. Don't remember how much detention he got. So essentially he got "hurt".

Yes. But you and your friend acted to protect somebody else, namely whoever owned the money. That is the difference.

Okay I can admit that Duncan was angry towards Oliver & co. He could have wanted revenge but even still I just didn't see Duncan vindictive. He was the sort of dude who wouldn't hurt a fly.

In the scene where Ollie confronts Lex by taking Duncan's comic out of his hand, Duncan did nothing to help or defend Lex. In fact, he just stands there, making it clear by bodylanguage and what he said that he won't stand by his side. Compare the body language of Ollie and his gang to how Lex and Duncan interacted. Ollie's friends made it clear they were on his side and would take action if he was attacked, verbally or physically. But right from the beginning Duncan does not glare or even watch Ollie and his gang. Instead he looks at Lex. This shows an extreme disloyalty to his supposed best friend and a willingness to let his best friend be hurt.

And given how Ollie and his friends were school bullies and Lex had just joined them in the cover up I can't see how Duncan would have put their needs above what needed to be done.

I am talking about how Duncan treated Lex before they observed Ollie stealing the mid-term answers. The scenes clearly showed that Duncan's treatment of Lex was really mean. More mean than everything Ollie did because Duncan claimed to be Lex's friend. But he betrayed that friendship all the time and just used Lex for his own goals. Why do you think he was not worried about his comic? He knew Lex, Lex always had more money than ideas what to do with it. Lex would have done everything in his power so that his friend would get the comic again. It is how we see him acting in the first seasons. Wanting to give Clark a car, wanting to financially help the Kents. Giving Chloe computers. Financing Lana's Talon. There are patterns in the behaviour of people and this is one of Lex's.

Back to the incident with the comic. If it had been Lionel and Morgan Edge they had confronted I would agree with you that not rising to the challenge was the right course of action. Lionel and Edge had been growing up in the suicide slums of Metropolis and likely make their first kill in self-defence before they turned fourteen. But Ollie? Just a spoiled rich kid testing boundaries and limitations as befitting his age. One can see it in the scene where Lex hits Duncan, at first they encourage him but then they see themselves that it is enough and Ollie even interfered on Duncan's behalf. They all were shocked by what had happened even before Duncan was hit by the car. And Duncan had not even been seriously hurt. He was more angry than scared and could stand up alone, walk, and talk. The actual danger he would have been in by being loyal to Lex was minimal to begin with.

It seems there are comic fans and comic fans. Clearly Duncan didn't get the message of the Warrior Angel comics. He must have thought that being a superhero means that one can confront villains safely with one's superpowers and put them into jail. No danger to oneself. He never got the idea that one has to take risk oneself if one wants to protect those one cares for.

They weren't little kids, they knew what they were doing was wrong.

They were spoiled teenagers and doing this more out of fun than anything else. Teenagers just love to break rules and do something forbidden. It was shown in the scene where they stole the answers - they all were giggling and one of them said "this is soooo cool".

If one of the teachers had been in Lex and Duncan's place (seeing them without them being aware of it) he likely would not have turned them in. There are other ways to deal with it. For example, after the exam during class he might have asked them for answers of other questions telling them that they should know these answers, too, as they had an A in the test and thus must have learned really well. Little tricks like these suit the goal much better than turning kids in for cheating. Because if they want to live up to their A they have to really learn now - which is the goal of the teacher; and if they don't they certainly won't cheat again like that because of all the embarrassing moments in front of their schoolmates.

And one could argue that without Oliver in the picture Lex wouldn't have to "pretend" being his friend. Both Duncan AND Lex won't be bullied again. It might include other kids as well.

I think it was made really clear that that was not the situation. Duncan and Lex were bullied by many, not just Ollie. One aspect of Lex wanting Ollie's protection was that they won't be bullied by others any more, not just Ollie himself.

Plus, in extreme cases, bullying can lead to suicides.

That is right and the reason one has to be very thorough interpreting each situation itself. There are no general rules. In this case Ollie was clearly bullying Lex (not Duncan), because he was interested in Lex. Ollie remembered them playing as kids and probably didn't understand why Lex had changed so much. He challenged Lex again and again, and Lex responded in the correct way, rising to the challenge, but was held back by Duncan, his best friend.

Like you said it yourself, Duncan wasn't in mortal danger. He wasn't going to be raped either. He obviously took the bullying but couldn't retort back verbally or physically. Duncan wanted to be a lawyer and I guess breaking in and stealing something got him deciding that enough is enough.

Yes, he wanted to be a lawyer. How he thought he could manage that without some courage and inclinations to confront others at least with words, such as the opposing lawyer at court, remains a mystery forever.

[Lieslchen]

I was busy training a new colleague last week... so I wasn't able to post anything... so here are the banners! I hope you'll still appreciate them!