Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ZOD and SNEEZE Official Re-Watch Thread, June 29nd, 2012

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sorry I'm so late! I was ill last week...





    I've put up all S6 banners here, please go comment in my thread to let me know what you think!

    Comment


    • Hope you are feeling better, L.

      Great banners as always.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Arbar
        I can't check this because it won't be repeated for a while, but I always got the impression that Lana had gone through the feeds beforehand and cued them up to that scene, then she did the dramtic reveal to Lex to hammer home her point. Otherwise, her not noticing that the feed wasn't live was kinda dumb (okay, I know it's Lana, but still - she can be clever!)
        Maybe that's the case the second time around, when she shows them to Lex, but not the first time, when she first discovers them.

        ----- Added 25 Minutes later -----

        Originally posted by Freawaru
        Do you really think Chloe would not lie when it suits her purposes?
        No, I agree that she would lie (and lie well, too) if it suited her purpose; I just don't see what that purpose might be in this case.

        Originally posted by Freawaru
        Sure. Brilliant mind. Self-healing body. Knowing a lot about almost everything. Best choice, except for Clark of course.
        Not to mention that Lex isn't bothered by conventional ideas of right and wrong. The ends justify the means for him, and if it suits his purpose, it is all good with him.

        Originally posted by Freawaru
        Or he did not want Lionel to know it. After all, not so long ago Lionel threatened to kill Lex if Clark would not do what he wanted.
        Maybe, but it did not appear to me that Clark had any thought of looking for Lex: "Lex and I have nothing to do with each other anymore." That's not to say that he might not have reconsidered later, but I don't think he was thrilled at the prospect when Lionel proposed it.



        Originally posted by Freawaru
        It seemed to me that Lana really did not trust Clark any more. After all, she, Lionel, and Martha plotted to kill Lex after he had been possessed by Zod. But Clark wanted to kill Lex before this happened. Lex told her he was not sure whom to trust any more, and I think for Lana this included Clark.
        Could be. Interesting to note that Lionel, Martha and Lana all plotted to kill Lex, fully intending to do so if they could, but while Clark wrestled with the idea (as Lana overheard), he ultimately refused to go through with it when the opportunity presented itself. Lana, of course, didn't know that, but she did seem to understand, once Lex had been taken over by Zod, why Clark had said what she overheard him say - hence her willingness to kill Lex if she could. She just didn't know how he knew ahead of time...



        Originally posted by Freawaru
        What is so creepy about that? Clark uses his superpowers for this very purpose whenever he is freed from his constrains by red kryptonite. Lois wasn't exactly averse to take a good look at amnesiac Clark, either. Or to enter his shower. I never got the impression that Lex was prudish. And they were already in a relationship after all, snuggling, kissing, and all that.
        It is not a matter of being a prude, but of respecting certain boundaries. Being in a relationship does not give someone the right to spy on one's partner without their knowledge. It isn't right when Clark does it via x-ray vision when he is on redK, and it isn't right when Lex does it to Lana here. The Lois instances you cite are different. She should probably have stayed out of Clark's shower, but at least he was aware of her presence, and her purpose in going in the bathroom was to embarrass/annoy him, not sneak a peek. And it would be pretty hard to ignore a naked guy like the one she found in the cornfield. Kal was aware of and did not seem to mind her scrutiny.


        Originally posted by Freawaru
        They usually are reasonably. Just not always the complete truth.
        True.



        Originally posted by Freawaru
        I would think he did, because she could have searched for one. But it was back when Kara lived in that room.
        Maybe, but I would imagine Lex knows how to hide these things pretty well. Also, she was likely at this point to take him at his word; he certainly seemed sincere, after all, and Lana believes Lex doesn't lie to her. Still, you are probably right, since it would have destroyeed the trust Lex had worked so hard to build if she were to discover that there was still a camera in her room.



        Originally posted by Freawaru
        How do we know that they didn't?
        There is no way. Lex would have made reference to something like that.
        Last edited by MrsK; 07-03-2012, 04:55 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MrsK
          Maybe that's the case the second time around, when she shows them to Lex, but not the first time, when she first discovers them.
          Ah, okay. Sorry about that - I must have missed her first discovery of them

          Comment


          • I love the analysis people put into my fave ever show.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MrsK
              No, I agree that she would lie (and lie well, too)
              Yes. Chloe is good at lying - unlike Clark.

              if it suited her purpose; I just don't see what that purpose might be in this case.
              She had her computer and her records in the DP. She was working on something before Jimmy scared her. Maybe she didn't want to tell Lionel what she was doing.

              Not to mention that Lex isn't bothered by conventional ideas of right and wrong. The ends justify the means for him, and if it suits his purpose, it is all good with him.
              Yes. I guess that is what I like so much about Lex (and also Lionel). They are not hampered by conventional ideas or idealism. This means they don't lie to themselves. When they decide to help someone it is truely compassion that motivates them. They are a bit like 5000 years old Methos (Highlander) who had gone through so many different idealisms and conventions and morals that he finally was only true to himself.

              Maybe, but it did not appear to me that Clark had any thought of looking for Lex: "Lex and I have nothing to do with each other anymore." That's not to say that he might not have reconsidered later, but I don't think he was thrilled at the prospect when Lionel proposed it.
              You are probably right, about both. Just wanted to point out that at times Clark might have his own agenda, too.

              Could be. Interesting to note that Lionel, Martha and Lana all plotted to kill Lex, fully intending to do so if they could, but while Clark wrestled with the idea (as Lana overheard), he ultimately refused to go through with it when the opportunity presented itself.
              Yes. He chose to take the risk. I would not call this "good", however. Because unlike normal humans Clark is able to change fate and he must indeed have pulled some strings here to get the chance to exorcise Lex. Otherwise humankind would not be any more.

              Lana, of course, didn't know that, but she did seem to understand, once Lex had been taken over by Zod, why Clark had said what she overheard him say - hence her willingness to kill Lex if she could. She just didn't know how he knew ahead of time...
              She asked him how he knew and he didn't answer. So, she couldn't be sure that that had been the reason. Also, was Zod still in Lex as Isobel had been in Lana even after the first "excorcism"? Lex must have worried about this, too.

              It is not a matter of being a prude, but of respecting certain boundaries. Being in a relationship does not give someone the right to spy on one's partner without their knowledge. It isn't right when Clark does it via x-ray vision when he is on redK, and it isn't right when Lex does it to Lana here.
              I agree it is not right. But I don't consider it "creepy" either. And Clark just does not do it because he still has those inhibitions. Lex never had them to begin with - and Lana knows that.

              Also, I am not completely sure that Lana was not even secretly pleased by it. Not that she would ever tell this Lex. But she had been down for months by Clark's unwillingness and probably must have wondered if she had lost her attraction. I mean, first Jason refused her and then even Clark.

              The Lois instances you cite are different. She should probably have stayed out of Clark's shower, but at least he was aware of her presence, and her purpose in going in the bathroom was to embarrass/annoy him, not sneak a peek.
              Are you sure? I am not. Think of the way she enjoyed seeing Ollie's body.

              And it would be pretty hard to ignore a naked guy like the one she found in the cornfield. Kal was aware of and did not seem to mind her scrutiny.
              But Lois is, well, Lois. I mean, she is the girl who spends her nights drinking with fellow students in her pyjamas. She "escapes" hospital with just her back-free hospital garb through the main entrance. She strips in a mens club and her only worry is that she might not do it well (and was pretty proud of it afterwards). And when someone stalks her while she is in the shower she does not grab her towel or clothes, no, she takes a weapon. If you ask me Lois only feels naked if she cannot use her body to fight.

              Maybe, but I would imagine Lex knows how to hide these things pretty well. Also, she was likely at this point to take him at his word; he certainly seemed sincere, after all, and Lana believes Lex doesn't lie to her. Still, you are probably right, since it would have destroyeed the trust Lex had worked so hard to build if she were to discover that there was still a camera in her room.
              Lex being Lex I suspect he even had a hidden motive. He had already decided that Lana would be his replacement as CEO in Luthorcorp when the vision of him turning against humankind would become true (but he never told her about this). It had been one of Lionel's first hard lessons: don't let anybody put cameras where you don't want them. As CEO of Luthorcorp Lana would need to pay attention to that danger. I guess, if Lana had not found the camera in her room by chance Lex would somehow have construed a scenario where she had to find it.

              There is no way. Lex would have made reference to something like that.
              To whom?

              Comment


              • Also, I am not completely sure that Lana was not even secretly pleased by it. Not that she would ever tell this Lex. But she had been down for months by Clark's unwillingness and probably must have wondered if she had lost her attraction. I mean, first Jason refused her and then even Clark.
                Hmm. Could be. I hadn't thought about that way


                Are you sure? I am not. Think of the way she enjoyed seeing Ollie's body.
                Sure she did. I'm not saying she didn't also enjoy seeing Clark. But I don't think, judging by the smirk on her face at the time, that was her reason or going into Clark's bathroom while he was showering. And she made sure he was aware of her presence before he got out, giving him a chance to cover himself.

                But Lois is, well, Lois. I mean, she is the girl who spends her nights drinking with fellow students in her pyjamas. She "escapes" hospital with just her back-free hospital garb through the main entrance. She strips in a mens club and her only worry is that she might not do it well (and was pretty proud of it afterwards). And when someone stalks her while she is in the shower she does not grab her towel or clothes, no, she takes a weapon. If you ask me Lois only feels naked if she cannot use her body to fight.
                No argument there.

                To whom?
                Lionel, probably. He has shown Lionel other blurry photos, like the one of Bart in Mexico in Justice, and they have discussed odd things about Clark on numerous occasions (e.g. end of Justice, end of Mercy).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MrsK
                  Hmm. Could be. I hadn't thought about that way
                  Does not make what Lex did "right". But I think it hurt Lana less than than one would think. And as Lana used to talk with Lex about her boyfriends and problems in her relationships I assume that Lex had an idea about how much Lana felt hurt by Clark's disinterest in this respect.

                  Sure she did. I'm not saying she didn't also enjoy seeing Clark. But I don't think, judging by the smirk on her face at the time, that was her reason or going into Clark's bathroom while he was showering.
                  As usually people have more than one reason for an action I guess I simply consider both reasons to have been hers.

                  And she made sure he was aware of her presence before he got out, giving him a chance to cover himself.
                  That is right.

                  Lionel, probably. He has shown Lionel other blurry photos, like the one of Bart in Mexico in Justice, and they have discussed odd things about Clark on numerous occasions (e.g. end of Justice, end of Mercy).
                  I don't think Lex's cameras ever got a shot of Clark superspeeding. But they should have caught him when he stopped, right? For example, when he came into the Mansion late at night (without Lex knowing it) to take another look at the "map" of the stone's location. It is not clear at what point Lex installed the cameras in the mansion. I doubt that in "Wither" he came into his green house by chance. His cameras must have alerted him of an intruder and obviously he knew it was Clark because he didn't have an army with him. But Clark being Clark he superspeeded into it and would have just appeared on a camera without the others presenting pictures. Just like Milton Fine on the pictures taken in Honduras.

                  For getting a picture of Bart superspeeding Lex must have used another of his machinations to get Bart to a point at a specific time where he could shoot it. We see him manipulating Bart in "Justice", and I think he must have done that before. Planting some information that should be interesting to Ollie. And then making sure that Bart would take a certain route to get it. Bart might be superspeeding but the computers he stole information from are not. They might have send a signal to the camera to start and thus Bart was shot superspeeding out instead of teleporting or going invisible, something that would also explain his appearances and disappearances from cameras. Superspeed was one of Lex's main meteor powers interests because Milton Fine and the two Kryptonians of the Black ship had been able to do it. He wanted that power to create clones and Ares to fight an invasion.

                  I doubt that he thought it was Clark on the camera. He must have seen Bart on his cameras before, and even with Bart's costume they don't look that much alike. Also, at this point he already knew about Clark's superstrenght, right? He had told Clark he knew he was Naman in "Blank", Clark just had forgotten it. If it had been Clark who was the intruder there should have been signs of superstrenght.

                  Anyway, it seemed to me that Lex always tried to protect Clark from Lionel. It was actually pretty amusing to watch how they both tried to protect Clark from each other. In "Justice" Lex finally realized that his father was protecting Clark, too. Lionel had suggested it to him already in "Mercy", telling him about Clark being someone a father could be proud of. Lex had always considered Clark a brother and here Lionel tells him that he included Clark into the family, too. But this also meant that Lionel would try to influence both to compete against each other - as he did with Lucas.

                  So I doubt that Lex would have spoken about the topic Clark's powers with his father. He knew that Lionel knew about Clark's powers and likely that he was Naman (was not that difficult to deduce after all). Lex was just not sure about Lionel's plans regarding it. Lionel certainly did his best to protect Clark but also to gain influence over him: helping Martha, helping Chloe and Lana, helping Clark directly. This influence over Clark was obviously Lionel's main plot at the moment because Lex was able to use it to get Luthorcorp back after the hostile takeover by Apex. Lionel had Luthorcorp back - until Lex threatened to tell Martha that Lionel had been communicating with Jonathan shortly before his death. At the end of Justice Lex tried to find out how much Lionel knew and what his plans regarding 33.1 and Clark were - that is why he told Lionel about "his man" seeing Clark at the facility. Lionel denied everything and presented Lex with an obvious lie about him and Clark having dinner at the Kents. Lex and Lionel had been playing the "I monitor you, you monitor me" game for years, with Lex currently at the upper hand. Lex knew there had been no dinner at the farm, and Lionel knew that Lex knew.

                  Lionel on the other hand had been completely confused by Lex's behaviour in "Onyx". Who is Lex? He even asked this question directly. I doubt they ever had an honest discussion about Clark, just hints here and there.

                  Comment


                  • Does not make what Lex did "right". But I think it hurt Lana less than than one would think. And as Lana used to talk with Lex about her boyfriends and problems in her relationships I assume that Lex had an idea about how much Lana felt hurt by Clark's disinterest in this respect.
                    I don't think she was hurt much, if at all, by Lex's actions. She seemed more angry than anything else.


                    Interesting thoughts on Lex/Lionel/Clark. We disagree on how much Lex knew, and when, so I''m not sure I agree with everything you said, but you could be right. I do like your theory about Clark's superspeeding not showing up on camera. He did show up in earlier seasons (e.g. Rogue) but by now he has gotten much faster, so maybe he wouldn't.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MrsK
                      I don't think she was hurt much, if at all, by Lex's actions. She seemed more angry than anything else.
                      Yeah. Lex has quite a talent for making people angry with him.

                      Interesting thoughts on Lex/Lionel/Clark. We disagree on how much Lex knew,
                      That is okay. I don't have any meta arguments like "producer XY said so." But I do have a meta-meta argument: there are less inconsistencies regarding Lex and Lex related plots if one assumes that he knew and that he didn't really change since season one (meaning he still adored Clark, he still wanted to save humans, but at times he didn't think through his plans). I had a lot of fun watching season six and seven and was quite surprised reading comments on this forum about those supposed inconsistencies. I prefer stories and characters to be self-consistent and the idea that Lex didn't know and just was too stupid to see it (especially as all other characters were able to reason it out) just doesn't appeal to me.

                      I do like your theory about Clark's superspeeding not showing up on camera. He did show up in earlier seasons (e.g. Rogue) but by now he has gotten much faster, so maybe he wouldn't.
                      Considering how cameras work I think it is a matter of chance. Sometimes it "clicks" just at the right moment. The faster Chlark became the less the chance but even in season eight Jimmy was able to get a snapshot by pure luck. I guess to get a picture of Bart superspeeding Lex must have put several high speed cameras along his way, simply to enhance the chance that he would get one shot.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Freawaru
                        Well, well, well. Isn't it fascinating how quickly all so-called values and moral slogans like "the ends do not justify the means" vanish during a real crisis? Everybody suddenly showing their true colours. Chloe shooting to kill whoever might lurk in the back of the DP. Martha plotting to kill Lex. Lana going ahead and trying to kill Lex with Martha's blessing. Lionel is the only one true to his ideals. And Lex himself actually appreciates their efforts to kill him.
                        I don't think this is really fair.

                        The "ends" here was nothing short of preventing the deaths of virtually everyone on earth. There was just no choice. And it was Clark--the one person who would arguably profit from Lex's death--who ultimatly refused to kill Lex when he had the chance. Later, Clark blamed himself for the release of the Phantom Zone criminals, due to the fact that if he had killed Lex, Zod wouldn't have been able to send him into the Zone. Clark also took responsibility (in the next episode) for cleaning up the destruction of Black Thursday, noting that if he had listened to Jor-El (meaning, kill Lex) Zod wouldn't have caused Black Thursday.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RightWingConspirator
                          The "ends" here was nothing short of preventing the deaths of virtually everyone on earth. There was just no choice.
                          That is what I mean. The ends justify the means - sometimes. And this is why Lex changed his means. He changed his means after he understood that there were threats "out there" (the aliens) and "in here" (the meteor infected), a threat to all of humankind with the power to eradicate everybody on earth. A long time before anybody else (such as Martha, Chloe, etc) realized that humankind as a whole was on stake he started to come up with countermeans against the threatening genocide. And they all - especially Clark - blamed him for it (well, except Lana).

                          And it was Clark--the one person who would arguably profit from Lex's death--who ultimatly refused to kill Lex when he had the chance.
                          Yes. And how many humans died for it? Zod created a world wide crisis and if it was like in Metropolis everywhere thousands died.

                          Later, Clark blamed himself for the release of the Phantom Zone criminals, due to the fact that if he had killed Lex, Zod wouldn't have been able to send him into the Zone. Clark also took responsibility (in the next episode) for cleaning up the destruction of Black Thursday, noting that if he had listened to Jor-El (meaning, kill Lex) Zod wouldn't have caused Black Thursday.
                          Frankly, I don't blame him for his choice to not kill Lex. It was a tough decision, the sure death of someone he cares for against the possible deaths of thousands and even the possible death of all of humankind. But his choice is the reason Lex never trusted him any more, in the sense of not trusting him to make the right decision if it came to similar situations. He trusted Lana instead. And in a way Ollie and Chloe. Because they all would have killed him to save humankind - just as he would have killed himself (and anybody else, even his father) for it. Remember, in Descent when he talks with "child Lex" he tells him that he had no choice but to kill Lionel. And child Lex did not disagree.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X
                          😀
                          🥰
                          🤢
                          😎
                          😡
                          👍
                          👎