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My finale thoughts on Lex in smallville

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  • #61
    "But it will matter because every event/episode in the show lead him to where he ended in the finale".

    Exactly; every event in the show made Lex the man he became. Lex is still that same man, only he doesn't remember why he is. Clark--and the audience--have the advantage over Lex of knowing what made him become who he is, but Lex doesn't. That doesn't mean he's not the same Lex. Simply that he can't figure out why he is the way he is, or why he does the things that he'll continue to do.

    "Me personaly I wished it was the mind control formula made from Chloe's mother's DNA but a new batch that has the person carry out the command forever and Tess's command would be "I want you to forget all you know about Clark Kent" and in the flashes Lex sees the ones with Clark he's still there but his face is blured then Lex looks down at a dead Tess and his last words are "who was the alien traveler?"

    Great idea, jester! I would've preferred something like that as well. Because even if we disagree with Boyscout about his take on the mind wipe, he definitely makes valid points and the execution could've definitely been handled a lot better. That being said though, I agree with you that the wipe was meant to show us that Lex will still be Lex but just can't remember why, like we've been saying. And I agree with you about how epic the scene was overall!

    "The difference with the other mindwipes on the show as I have mentioned many times is that we saw the characters gaining their memories back and continue on their path."

    Good point, Boyscout. But then again, we're given iconic President Lex. Doesn't that suggest he's back on his path? I know we disagree about this, but what else would be the point of showing him as President Lex?

    "Lex forgot Clark's secret but he didn't forget about Clark. There's a huge difference if one of the show's main reasons to exist was to show how friends end up hating each other. Now Lex doesn't hate Clark, he can't, because he can't remember him."

    But he can hate Superman and probably would feel the same emotions but just toward Superman and not Clark. Why else would they give us a scene like the final one between Clark and Lex that greatly foreshadows the future relationship? I think we're meant to believe that he and Superman will share a similar one, even if Lex can't put his finger on the specifics of why he feels this way about Superman.

    "He can't be bitter about losing Lana (own fault but still) because to him she doesn't exist. His hatred for his father and how Lex killed him isn't present to shape his future decisions because it's wiped away...burnt like the scene showed us."

    But again Lex still becomes the same Lex, as we're shown in the epilogue. Surely all these things made him the man he is. Here's how I see the mind wipe: rather than it changing Lex's personality and decision-making, it simply made it so that Lex would not understand WHY he does the things he does...but he will continue to do them. Again it's like the Joker in "The Killing Joke" or even real life killers with repressed memories like Ted Bundy. They don't always understand why they are such evil people because their memories are repressed, but they still continue to do the same evil things because of how deeply their past influenced them.

    "We agreed that Lex's personality would remain the same and Lex is left with the things he choose in Lexmas money and power,plus he doesn't have the Clark influence and he already killed the good side of his mind. so to me if we use the mental picture they used in fracture the only one left in Lex's mind is the evil Lex "

    Exactly, Lex chose money and power, he burnt the good side of his mind, and now Clark's influence is also gone as well. He's basically left with all the dark choices he made even if he can't remember why he made them, and why he will continue to make them over and over.

    "In any case I'm interested in seeing how Lex will act with BQM writing the comic. Will it be like comic book Lex, Smallville Lex or something in between?"

    Great question, BoyScout! I think he'll be somewhere in between. If my theory (and jester's) proves correct, then I think Lex will be a continuation of Smallville Lex but just won't remember the specifics that made him this way. I think that will lead him to also become a bit like comic book Lex too where he'll hate Superman but--because he doesn't remember WHY he hates him--will start to come up with more and more justifications for his hatred. Philosophical justifications like Lex in "Lex Luthor: Man of Steel" for instance.

    "This is still up for debate? The finale made it very clear that the real Lex was dead and this was a composite clone, created from the best parts of his imperfect clones (only the heart could not be cloned perfectly). "

    They never said Lex was dead in "Finale" though. Lionel simply said that he grafted the best pieces of his clones together to "create a masterwork". Then we're shown Lex with a burnt hand...I took that to mean that this was the original Lex who was severaly injured and suffered terrible burns (from the truck explosion? Or ice burn from the Fortress? still not sure on this one but the Fortress seems more like it...) and that's why he's been working all these years on piecing together the best clone parts to recreate himself. IMO.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by MozartRequiem
      Good point, Boyscout. But then again, we're given iconic President Lex. Doesn't that suggest he's back on his path? I know we disagree about this, but what else would be the point of showing him as President Lex?

      But again Lex still becomes the same Lex, as we're shown in the epilogue. Surely all these things made him the man he is. Here's how I see the mind wipe: rather than it changing Lex's personality and decision-making, it simply made it so that Lex would not understand WHY he does the things he does...but he will continue to do them. Again it's like the Joker in "The Killing Joke" or even real life killers with repressed memories like Ted Bundy. They don't always understand why they are such evil people because their memories are repressed, but they still continue to do the same evil things because of how deeply their past influenced them.
      I think the idea was to give the impression that Lex was an evil president. They're playing with the nostalgia of S1 where we saw flashes of Lex's future and again in S7 with that Apocalypse scenrio. The problem is it doesn't work given what happened with Lex. Had we seen a Prophecy styled Legion of Doom scene it would have been more fitting. To me when Lex Luthor becomes the president in SV-universe it's Game Over like we've already seen.

      Lex Luthor is quite the opposite to Joker. Both are evil but on the different ends of that spectre imo. Smallville Lex lost his memories. He's a blank slate. He doesn't remember things one way one day and differently in another day like the Joker did in Killing Joke. A big part of Smallville was to see how characters developed but also learn and understand things about themselves. With Lex there is no understanding anymore. It might make him more tragic but also more hollow as a character.

      Lex should do the things he does because of his world view not because he doesn't know any better what was exactly the finale ended up doing.

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      • #63
        " The problem is it doesn't work given what happened with Lex. Had we seen a Prophecy styled Legion of Doom scene it would have been more fitting."

        What's the difference though? They both mean the same exact thing only one of them is just a visual iconic symbol of Lex's evil in the series whereas another would take a bit more exposition, right? (NOTE: I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy a Legion of Doom scene...in fact I'd LOVE if they had done that, and it's a great idea Boyscout! All I meant was that both scenes mean the same thing, IMO. One is just "visual language" and another requires more dialog).

        "To me when Lex Luthor becomes the president in SV-universe it's Game Over like we've already seen."

        But that's only when Clark is not Superman to stop Lex. That's the whole point of Clark saying, "I'll always be there to stop you, always" in "Finale". It was the whole point of Casandra's message to Clark in "Hourglass" that he is destined to "save people from darkness". And of course in season seven's "Apocalypse" it was the entire message of the episode, that if Clark wasn't there to foil Lex's schemes as president, Lex would destroy almost the entire world.

        With Clark stepping into his destiny as Superman, he will always be there to stop Lex's schemes. That doesn't mean he can stop Lex from becoming president (just like Superman did not stop him from becoming president in the comic books) but it DOES mean that he can--and will--do everything in his power to stop Lex from destroying the entire world along the way.

        "Lex Luthor is quite the opposite to Joker. Both are evil but on the different ends of that spectre imo. Smallville Lex lost his memories. He's a blank slate. He doesn't remember things one way one day and differently in another day like the Joker did in Killing Joke."

        But how do we know? If he still ends up being the same Lex in the end (the presidential Lex being the symbol of "evil Lex" in the series, even if you'd do it differently), then who's to say that he is not like the Joker in "The Killing Joke"? And for that matter, I wasn't trying to say Lex remembers it one way one day and a different way the next or that he comes up with different origin stories like the Joker does, because that is not really in-character for Lex. I agree with you there. What I meant to suggest is that--like the Joker--Lex does not have full recognition of his past. But obviously his past--like whatever happened to the Joker--shaped Lex into the man he became, even if he can't remember the specifics of it.

        "Lex should do the things he does because of his world view not because he doesn't know any better what was exactly the finale ended up doing."

        But Lex's dark choices all have been due to his world view. Post-mindwipe, he'd still have the same world view but just wouldn't remember what brought him to have it. Again, refer back to my Ted Bundy example .

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        • #64
          We're lead to believe Lex is evil again but him becoming the president would imply that he's turned good and is not an evil genius running LexCorp like the sign made out to be. Had he been at a table with the Legion of Doom he'd surely be evil even if the path to that wasn't shown oscreen (he still got a new start because of the mindwipe - he became evil but not out of the same reasons).

          But Clark was there to stop Lex and still lost. He got shot even if it was just a scenario from Jor-El. Lex already had too much power and powerful allies. We saw that Clark would outlive his loved ones (thus being alive) and we saw Lex being president and still there was going to be death all around. That's why it was important to stop Lex in S5. He would have become a senator and then head over to the White House.

          To me here's the difference between the comic and the show. We've seen the world pretty much get destroyed when Lex is the president on Smallville. Comic book Lex is different, it's a different world/set of circumstances. Making Lex become president on SV illustrates how mixing and matching stuff from different genres might not work in the context of the show. Just because Superman: The Movie started with a comic book doesn't mean the finale should start that way...it didn't and still doesn't make much sense.

          But the specifics are the heart and soul of the show. How Clark Kent and Lex Luthor made the decisions and then accepted and lived by those decisions. Even when I agree that Lex is indeed like the Joker from The Killing Joke he's still a different character than what we saw on Smallville. Imo there's a difference in the Lex who stated he's the villain of the story, fully aware of his past and relishing on it than a Lex who does what he does because his past lead him to a point (killing Tess) where it was taken away from him (even if Tess' lines about forgetting or even Lex's lines about not truly forgetting have an impact)

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          • #65
            In Lexmas It showed that the only way Lex could be good is if he gave up his quest for power. Being President and having all that power is like a drug for Lex so yes being President (for Lex)does mean he is the villain he was ment to be. While Lex did start out trying to do good he still had to do just that try to be good it wasn't something he could just be without thought which is sad if you think about people should just know what being good is. As time went on and being "good" got harder Lex stoped trying and made a choice to go after money and power.I'm not saying Lex himself was born evil but he was born having a evil future and maybe losing his memories wasn't him losing the things that turned him evil but were the things that made him try and be good, Like his friendship with Clark or the desire to not be like his father. And seriously the fact that when we saw Lex as President during the show and it would end with the world ending it's only cause there was no Superman yet. Now that there is Lex may become President but won't get to rule like he wants. And does it really matter if Lex remembers his past he would only lie about it anyway cause thats what he does hence why he wasn't in jail in the future for killing Tess. Which is the biggest hint I saw that shows Lex is still the same man if he was good he would have turned himself in.

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            • #66
              What I saw in the Finale was Lex becoming president of the U.S. in his white suit which brought me to S1 and the foretelling of Lex destroying the world. It showed me that Lex ends up in the same place whether he remembers or not. Probably the reason he doesn't succeed in nuking the world, is Superman. Clark saw Lex as well pushing the button of destruction when Jor-El made Clark non-existant as in never having come to earth as a child so he will be prepared to intercede whatever evil plan Lex has in mind as president. Others may still have question about Lex becoming evil even though he doesn't remember but since we see Lex becoming Superman's nemises in other medias, it's a done deal. Smallville brought us up to the end of Clark's journey and then the story continues and I'd say most people know what that is.

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              • #67
                ^ Even if I'm not fond of the president idea and we don't see him do anything really evil post mind wipe I could see him being evil even if it's just a few vague visual cues. The point is that because he doesn't have his memories he won't be evil for the same reasons. There are different kinds of evil and the future Lex is just not the same as SV-Lex was.

                To some this is just a potato-potata - situation but imo in a show where the point was to see the how and why I think the finale sorta cheated with Lex. I appreciate when the show sticked to the comic mythos but that didn't mean the show can take things for granted (Clark Kent is known to become Superman so they don't need to show his debut clearly or name him on the spot - wrong!) (Lex Luthor is the villain of the story so it doesn't matter if he loses all the memories and experiences that made him decide to become the villain - without that baggage Lex would be free to choose again, differently, no matter if he ends up evil again.)

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                • #68
                  I feel Lex is the same after the wipe. His time on the show drove him to be evil right down to his core. So after the wipe his core personality would still be evil. I know they didn't show him do anything evil post mind wipe but like I said earlier the fact that he was President and not in jail for the death of Tess is all the evil acts I need to see. People assume to much with the wipe it wasn't ment to mess with the character of Lex it had two purposes one make it so Lex doen't know Clark is Superman and two so Lex didn't see himself as the villain in the future which makes his actions worst.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by the jester
                    People assume to much with the wipe it wasn't ment to mess with the character of Lex it had two purposes one make it so Lex doen't know Clark is Superman and two so Lex didn't see himself as the villain in the future which makes his actions worst.
                    I think that qualifies as messing with SV-Lex's character. Especially since the mind wipe altered so much more than that.

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                    • #70
                      "I feel Lex is the same after the wipe. His time on the show drove him to be evil right down to his core. So after the wipe his core personality would still be evil."

                      Exactly, this is totally what I was saying too. His experience on the show drove him to become evil. After the wipe, he is still too far gone down the evil path and even if he can't remember why he is the way he is, he's still the same person.

                      "People assume to much with the wipe it wasn't ment to mess with the character of Lex it had two purposes one make it so Lex doen't know Clark is Superman and two so Lex didn't see himself as the villain in the future which makes his actions worst."

                      Yes, the wipe is just so that Lex doesn't put two and two together with Clark and Superman. I think the writers were worried that if they only made it selective amnesia that Lex would still easily put two and two together. Still not the way I would've done it if I wrote the scene, but I'm just clarifying what their intentions probably were: they were trying to rob Lex of his knowledge about who Clark really is, but still have him maintain the same personality due to the experiences on the show that made him who he is, IMO.

                      Although I don't think Lex ever saw himself as a villain, jester. He may have referred to himself that way in "Finale" but I don't think he meant in a literal way. I think he just meant that he's aware that some of his actions will be viewed as "villainous" when compared to Superman but he believes that he is a "necessary evil" so to speak. IMO. That's why I don't think Boyscout's critique about the writers doing too much of a "crystal ball of the mythos" with Lex calling himself that is really accurate, although I can definitely understand why BoyScout would feel the way he does. I just don't think Lex was being as blatant. Lex probably thinks the line between hero and villain is "semantics" and all in the eye of the beholder.

                      "I think that qualifies as messing with SV-Lex's character. Especially since the mind wipe altered so much more than that."

                      But if jester's theory and mine is correct, then it doesn't alter more than that. Not if our theory is true.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Exedore
                        This is still up for debate?
                        Lx0=Original Lex+clone parts

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by MozartRequiem
                          Exactly, this is totally what I was saying too. His experience on the show drove him to become evil. After the wipe, he is still too far gone down the evil path and even if he can't remember why he is the way he is, he's still the same person.
                          You say that his experiences drove him to evil. I agree. But that isn't something that gets imprinted on his DNA. He does evil things because past experiences have taught him that he can get away with it. Now all of that is gone. He's a blank piece of paper. He has no memories from which to go on.

                          Just like Connor wasn't Lex anymore when he lost Lex' memories. He was a blank who had to go from there and find his own life.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by DJ Doena
                            Just like Connor wasn't Lex anymore when he lost Lex' memories. He was a blank who had to go from there and find his own life.
                            So far I like the Lex Luthor in the SV-comic but I agree with what you said. The show contradicted itself in the same season.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow
                              The show contradicted itself in the same season.
                              They tend to do that often. In season one Clark offered to stop using his powers because of the dirty cop and his parents insisted that his gifts are who he is. Three episodes later he'd lost them and suddenly hiw powers were only part of him but didn't define him. Or maybe that's just parenting.

                              In season 4's Facade Lois asks him why he isn't on the football team and basically pushs him to try out. One episode later she mocks him for trying to be a "conformist" because he wasn't the lame plaid-wearing farmboy anymore. Or maybe that's just Lois.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by DJ Doena
                                You say that his experiences drove him to evil. I agree.
                                I don't. I think it was Jor El's prophesy.

                                He does evil things because past experiences have taught him that he can get away with it.
                                I doubt that this is the reason. Already in season one he knew that he would get away with anything. He knew that whatever he would do - kill his brother, kill that dude in the bar - his father would cover him. Do you think that people do evil things whenever they think they can get away with it?

                                Now all of that is gone. He's a blank piece of paper. He has no memories from which to go on.
                                "He still has his instincts" said Miller. And that is not nothing. In Blank (season four) Clark also suffers from amnesia but he is still himself. In fact we see Clark suffering from two very different forms of amnesia, one in Blank and the other in Crusade. Clark isn't the same amnesiac in both.

                                Just like Connor wasn't Lex anymore when he lost Lex' memories. He was a blank who had to go from there and find his own life.
                                I think this is a different situation. If the current Lex in season 11 is the original Lex he also needs to have the soul. We saw in Transference (season four) that a "soul" can be transferred into another body, keeping the full memory and personality. The body and it's abilities on the other hand stays the same - Lionel had Clark's abilities and didn't need to learn them, and Clark was suddenly a crack at hand to hand combat within Lionel's body. I think Smallvilleverse differs between body and soul, and Connor didn't get Lex's soul.

                                ----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

                                Originally posted by DJ Doena
                                They tend to do that often. In season one Clark offered to stop using his powers because of the dirty cop and his parents insisted that his gifts are who he is. Three episodes later he'd lost them and suddenly hiw powers were only part of him but didn't define him. Or maybe that's just parenting.
                                Just the Kents, I would say.

                                In season 4's Facade Lois asks him why he isn't on the football team and basically pushs him to try out. One episode later she mocks him for trying to be a "conformist" because he wasn't the lame plaid-wearing farmboy anymore. Or maybe that's just Lois.
                                That is Lois - using everything possible and impossible for her light bantering with Clark.
                                Last edited by Freawaru; 04-29-2012, 12:20 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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