My finale thoughts on Lex in smallville

[Arbar]

"A deal is a deal - until a better one comes along, rule 16" (at times I wondered if some of the characters were actually Ferengi). The Luthor way (master morality) was portrayed as having a lot of flaws, too.

I think "A contract is a contract is a contract....but only between Ferengi" is actually quite applicable too, especially that last bit

Because he suspected it. According to the legend Naman and Sageeth were friends as close as brothers. There were not many options for Sageeth. Pete? In season nine he tells Zod that once there had been a friend who had been like a part of himself - but he was dead. I think Clark's feelings for Lex were always stronger than for Pete. Lex was always the most likely candidate for Sageeth.

Of course - I forgot that part, sorry

That is why Clark is The Traveler, IMO. Not because he is a Kryptonian - there are other Kryptonians on Earth - but because he can change fate. More precisely he can "influence the fate of individuals". It was part of the Traveler prophesy and the reason everybody was not sure that Clark was the Traveler - everybody but Lionel and Dr. Swann that is, who knew it from Jor El.
In their last dialoge Lex askes Lionel if he, Lionel, is the Traveler. Lionel denies by asking Lex "Do you really think I can influence the fate of individuals? You give me too much credit." A moment later Lionel tries to convince Lex that Lex himself is the Traveler. Both statements show that according to the prophesy The Traveler it not necessarily a Kryptonian but could just as well be a human. And even a few episodes later Edward Teaque, who knew the Traveler prophesy as well as Dr. Swann, Lionel, and Lex, tries to kill Lex to destroy The Traveler. Edward also tried to kill Clark, which makes some sense after he was sure that Clark was The Traveler, but why would he try to kill Lex, babbling about having to kill the Destroyer due to balance reasons after killing the Saviour, when a few scenes before he tells Clark that The Traveler is sometimes portrayed as a saviour and sometimes as a destroyer?

Really interesting theory; I read a bit of your discussion on this thread before too, and it's a fascinating angle.

What I'm not quite able to reconcile about Clark changing this is the question, can he really change fate? Either he can or he can't, but in some respects he is bound as tightly as everyone else by this thing called fate, and cannot escape it. We actually only have Jordan Cross' word that he *can* change fate (or do we.... I may have missed some point on this)

I admit, I am still confused by the desire of some fans to be able to file characters in terms of good and evil. This is not the first time I am on a forum discussing a science fiction TV series and I never encountered this before. You don't get questions like "when did Kira become good?" or "when did Ghul Dukat become evil?" or the like. Even the Borg were "gray" in Voyager and Seven of Nine proudly stated "I was Borg" whenever she did something to save the day.

Humans like neat boxes. It helps us to manage a world that defies logic and sense sometimes, and lets us try to process a vast amount of information (some psyhologists would call the boxes 'schema' or 'schemata', I believe) I've never actually discussed much sci-fi outside of SV but I would suggest the pre-determined fates of the characters, backed by decades of comic fandom, leads people to seek to confirm a juxtaposition of 'good' Superman and bad' Lex. In effect, those characters are lugging a lot of meta-textual baggage arouund with them

Yes, I agree. But only in relationship with our heroes. He did lie, cheat, manipulate, and threaten his adversaries - just recall that reporter who wanted to blackmail him to get money. Lex threatened to "destroy" him and got himself a "slave" in return (Luthor terminology !) - at least until the reporter found out Clark's secret and thought he would get a great story after all, tried to kill Jonathan, and Lex had to kill him. Another example for Lex loosing his power over others at times.

It would be interesting to compile a list of 'bad' things Lex did, in terms of general morality, and in terms of actual crimes, over the years. There'd obviously be room for debate though

It was. I think Lex believed that those meteor freaks were under his control and I am sure they had order to not hurt anybody. It was still a mistake, Lex should have known that his control over them was not perfect and someone could get hurt just because he wanted to test and teach Clark. It seemed to me that this was the reason Clark was so angry with Lex: not because Lex made another attempt to solve the riddle Clark Kent (even Martha understood that by now) but because Lex put Clark's parents and Lana into danger for it.

Oh definitely - that would have been, for me, the moment for Clark to legitimately start to really dislike Lex, rather than the half-baked reasons he apparently had before

That is a shame - season 5, 6, and 7 (and 9) are my favorites.

I can't help it - I like season 1-3, the classic Clex years when everything was bright and pretty and you could believe they had a chance Not to say that I don't find what I saw of the other seasons intruiging, just that I love those early years

No, we don't see that. I don't know where people got that idea from. He was doing experiments with them, not on them. The goal of all his experiments was to find out more about their powers (except for those experiments in which he tried to find a cure, Dr. Knox mentions that Lex had done this for years and none of his specialists was able to find a cure). The experiements he did with them were designed to find out about the nature of their abilities. Like when he let Bart run to test his velocity and endurance. They were constructed in the same sprit as him testing Clark's abilities in "Mortal", or Green Arrow, Cyborg, and JC (and later Watchtower) in season six and seven. But unlike, Clark and the JLA he could not let the meteor infected go but had to keep them in quarantine (not to mention that the JLA quasi joined his experiements willingly thinking they worked against him). And that was all the experiments he ever did with them as far as we ever see. Their DNA on the other hand he used to enhance his clone soldiers. By the end of season six he could have taken Earth by force and become world dictator using his meteor powered clone army, but that was not what he designed them for. He used the clones to capture meteor infected who ran amok (that is why we see less meteor psycho-killers in the later seasons, when there should have been actually more and more due to the second meteor shower, this was mentioned in "Prototype"). And he tried to find a way to create a multiple meteor power soldier by using alien DNA, someone who could stand against the aliens from the black ship. Considering what happened in the seasons 8-10 his foresight could have saved the Earth with less casualties than Clark's on the spot improvisations.

Well, there you go - I've only watched about two thirds of the season 6 episodes, and often fast-forwarded bits, so obviously I got that wrong - apologies. My issue with his acts in this season though are still part of the whole 'means to an end' thing. I think some of what he did, from what I saw and you describe, did do harm to the cloned entities and others. I also don't subscribe to saying that because he could have done worse, he didn't do harm. (I'm not saying you're saying that, btw, it was just what you mentioned about how he *could* have taken over the world )

Dunno. We speak about Lana after all. They were playing their game, Lana was just shocked that she had been fooled by him after thinking she was already playing on his level. It is what she told him after all. If it had been any other character I would agree, but it was Lana.

Ehhhhhh.... We'll have to disagree on this - I don't see how the fact that Lana can be manipulative on one level means what Lex did wasn't a big deal.

It was more of an accident. That doctor tried to blackmail Lex on the very day of his wedding and Lex got angry and hit him. The doctor fell, hit his head, and broke his neck. Lionel was really angry with Lex because of this, not because he killed the doctor but because it was done in a sloppy way. Lex should have pretended to accept that doctor's blackmail and dealt with him in the usual Luthor way.

I saw the killing as 'accidental' in a way too, but it was still not a positive act. A similar act would be what he did to Duncan....except in that case, he had a lot less to do with the 'death' (which wasn't really a death as it turns out).

Yeah... if you ask me her opinion was that Lex had forced her to believe she did not love him and had to return to Clark and now she didn't know how to end that dysfunctional relationship without getting on Clark's black list. Remember how Clark accused her of choosing his "enemy" in "Crimson" during the wedding dinner? She could not return to Lex without fearing Clark might run amok again. And she blamed Lex for that. For being Clark's "enemy". She desperately searched for something she could Lex really hate for, something that showed that she had not made a really big mistake by leaving him, but she couldn't find anything. And it infuriated her even more.
You have to understand her. She made a mistake by leaving Lex and returning to Clark and obviously it had to be Lex's fault. Because he is a man and everybody knows women make no mistakes and if they do it is a man's fault. After all men just think with the hairs on their chest and have to be manipulated for their own good. For sure, Lex couldn't be an exception and being able to beat her in the game and still do the right thing by protecting humankind.

I don't see her thinking like that, and I don't know any women who think like that about men in real life either (sure, I've seen sexist remarks on the internet, but those go both ways, sadly). I firmly believe that making someone think they're pregnant by feeding them drugs, and then making them think they've miscarried is way beyond playing the Luthor game, and certainly not what Lana expected in the 'chess game' she entered. I also think that that alone was reason enough for Lana to detest him. I didn't even see it as particularly clever on Lex's part, but rather born of sheer desperation.

There could be an element on Lana's part (following these events) that made her angry she hadn't been able to 'win the game' though, but I don't believe that was the main reason. I think she assumed Lex would have no qualms about destroying people considering what he did to her (she only full-out hated him after the baby revelation - for example, when she left him to die in Nemesis) and with that always on her mind, she wouldn't be able to see any future 'good' he did or would do.

It seemed to me that in the first seasons her way of manipulation is not fully conscious. In this she is different from Lionel and Lex who always knew when they used his skill. I agree, that fear is one of her main drives - she tries to overcome it in season 8.
She is not bad or evil, though. She also has her good sides. She can be warm and give wise advice. She is there for her friends when they need her. She can put her own life in danger to save others - like when she went to the hospital to lure the Kryptonians from the Black Ship into a trap to prevent them to kill more humans. But she learned the Luthor game really fast and then became scared of herself.

Oh yeah, I agree she was scared of herself, and I think she ended up almost split in three by trying to exist as the sweet farmer's wife, the business woman, and the last line of defense against Lex (in her mind, anyway!)

[Freawaru]

I think "A contract is a contract is a contract....but only between Ferengi" is actually quite applicable too, especially that last bit

Yes. Then again "Deep down everybody is a Ferengi".

Really interesting theory; I read a bit of your discussion on this thread before too, and it's a fascinating angle.

I hope BQM will explore it. There are actually other options than Lex being the Traveler, too (though one has to explain his ability to heal and survive in this case in a different way). For example, Clark could be both saviour and destroyer and we only see one aspect during the series. It could have been Doomsday, too, but he never even seems to change fate, while Lex has his moments. Obviously, I would prefer Lex, though.

What I'm not quite able to reconcile about Clark changing this is the question, can he really change fate? Either he can or he can't, but in some respects he is bound as tightly as everyone else by this thing called fate, and cannot escape it. We actually only have Jordan Cross' word that he *can* change fate (or do we.... I may have missed some point on this)

As far as I understand Jor El, Clark can change the fate of individuals, not worlds or a species. However, if one knows whose fate to change one can alter the whole timeline. This seems to have been the plan of Jor El because he saw that Earth was as doomed as Krypton. There seem to be backdraws to this, though. Whenever Clark changes the fate of somebody another fate is changed, too. I think this was meant by Jor El when he told Clark that he could save Lana but somebody else had to die then. In Hereafter (season three) we see through Jordan Cross that when Clark changes the fate of one person (such as saving his life) other fates are affected (such as this guy then killing Lana and her friend). By using this "butterfly effect" Clark should indeed be able to alter the fate of humankind if he influences the right person or persons.

Take for example: Lex. If that scenario Jor El showed Clark in "Apocalypse" season seven was a possible one, Lex played a key role. We don't know what exactly his plan was, except that Brainiac encouraged him on it for own reasons. The Lex in that scenario could even have been "evil Lex" if the separation in Onyx would have happened in that timeline, too, and not corrected by Clark. I mean, something must have happened to Lex because Kara was rather confused by his behaviour and that suggests that he was not always like that, too. Somehow, I wonder if really Zod would have been the dominating personality in the body if Lex was not weakened by his two sides fighting each other. Guess, we will never find out.

Anyway, it seemed to me that Clark understood this power of changing fate of individuals and the responsibility that comes with it. And he feared it was beyond him to make decisions like that. Later he felt he had no choice but to do what he thought was right: namely to save the lifes of those he cares for - even if that meant that others would die to keep the universal balance.

Humans like neat boxes. It helps us to manage a world that defies logic and sense sometimes, and lets us try to process a vast amount of information (some psyhologists would call the boxes 'schema' or 'schemata', I believe) I've never actually discussed much sci-fi outside of SV but I would suggest the pre-determined fates of the characters, backed by decades of comic fandom, leads people to seek to confirm a juxtaposition of 'good' Superman and bad' Lex. In effect, those characters are lugging a lot of meta-textual baggage arouund with them

You are probably right.

It would be interesting to compile a list of 'bad' things Lex did, in terms of general morality, and in terms of actual crimes, over the years. There'd obviously be room for debate though

Why don't you start it?

Oh definitely - that would have been, for me, the moment for Clark to legitimately start to really dislike Lex, rather than the half-baked reasons he apparently had before

That is what I think, too. It is one of Lex's dark spots. At times he is so absorbed into his plans and games he goes too far before realizing his mistake. As I said I don't think he wanted to get the Kents and Lana hurt and he even thought they were safe, but if he had looked at it again he should have known that they were not. But it is neglect rather than bad intentions.

I can't help it - I like season 1-3, the classic Clex years when everything was bright and pretty and you could believe they had a chance Not to say that I don't find what I saw of the other seasons intruiging, just that I love those early years

Oh, the Clex storyline I love, too. A reason why I slightly prefer the later seasons is that it was the "freak of the week" aspect that dominated many episodes in the first seasons. Not that they were bad, not at all, but I watched so many of their kind ("demon of the week" in Buffy, "head of the week" in Highlander, "break and enter into a X and steal a Y" in Alias) that I prefer story arcs and character devellopments. And those got more screen time in the later seasons.

Well, there you go - I've only watched about two thirds of the season 6 episodes, and often fast-forwarded bits, so obviously I got that wrong - apologies.

Not only you. I read this even from those who watched the whole series.

My issue with his acts in this season though are still part of the whole 'means to an end' thing.

Well, it is very human actually. Even the Federation conveniently forgets it's Prime Directive the moment humankind itself is prone to utter destruction. There is no limit for instincts, and the instinct to keep humankind survive is very strong - otherwise we wouldn't be here any more. The question is how much is necessary and did Lex go farther than necessary?

I think some of what he did, from what I saw and you describe, did do harm to the cloned entities and others.

He killed both Julien clones, yes. Hurt him like hell, too. As to his clone soldiers I don't think they had a personality. He needed to insert one into the Julien clones artificially to make them being really alive. The Lana clone she killed to fake her own death at the end of season six for example never recieved a personality. Instead of giving the clone soldiers personalities Lex seems to have experiemented on them (!) - not the meteor freaks - with the aim to control them via mechanical means. This must have been a success. Later he tried to use the same chip on Wes Keenan but it didn't work as well as with the clones because Wes still had his own personality. Look, by then Lex had a lot of experience with controling the clones in this way, if they had had a personality like a human he and his scientists would not have been so irritated the moment Wes was able to free himself from it's influence. It must have been the first time they tried that chip on a real human or they would have encountered (and dealt with) this bug before.

So Lex had his meteor powered clone soldiers. Including abilities like invisibility for example (he also could have used his himself as it was a potion he got in season one "Shimmer" right?). Is there really any chance that he didn't confirm his suspicions about Clark somewhere along the way?

I also don't subscribe to saying that because he could have done worse, he didn't do harm. (I'm not saying you're saying that, btw, it was just what you mentioned about how he *could* have taken over the world )

What I tried to point out is that SV Lex Luthor is a completely different person from the comic book Lex Luthor. As far as I know he would have used them to take over the world. SV Lex has different priorities.

I saw the killing as 'accidental' in a way too, but it was still not a positive act. A similar act would be what he did to Duncan....except in that case, he had a lot less to do with the 'death' (which wasn't really a death as it turns out).

I think Duncan actually weighted more on him. Duncan had been his friend after all, while Lana's doctor wanted to blackmail him (a million dollar if I recall correctly). In both cases however he became so angry he lost control over himself.

I don't see her thinking like that, and I don't know any women who think like that about men in real life either (sure, I've seen sexist remarks on the internet, but those go both ways, sadly).

I didn't meant this in a sexist way. I just wanted to portray her fury. She was angry with Lex and she was angry with Clark, and she was even angry with Grant Gabriel when he didn't immediately printed her story. In my experience when women are angry with their husbands or boyfriends they often fall into this pattern of thought. It is not to degrade the men but to tell themselves that it is not really the men's fault that they do wrong. It is not rational, you don't expect rationality during fury, do you? but a way to excuse whatever goes wrong. In the same way we excuse all the nonsense children do, by telling ourselves they are but children, thus controlling anger.

I don't think Lana thinks in this way when she is calm - but during a fury like that I would not be surprised.

I firmly believe that making someone think they're pregnant by feeding them drugs, and then making them think they've miscarried is way beyond playing the Luthor game,

You think, she didn't know that in their struggle for power Lex had put Lionel into prison to die from his liver desease, and Lionel had Lex poisoned with a leathal poison. Hmmm... Sure, she was in Paris at that time but it should have been in the Daily Planet even if Chloe didn't brief her on it when she returned. And wouldn't it be out of character if she had not tried to know everything that had happened while she was in Paris? Just remember how she was pestering Clark all the time.

and certainly not what Lana expected in the 'chess game' she entered.

Why do you call it a "chess game"?

I also think that that alone was reason enough for Lana to detest him.

She didn't detest him. In "Wrath" season seven she didn't act (and KK didn't act her) as if she detested him at all. She acted like a woman who felt neglected by the man of her choice. This was the origin of her fury and finally Lex recognized it as such and kissed her. And she kissed him back and let go of that high voltage wire.

I didn't even see it as particularly clever on Lex's part, but rather born of sheer desperation.

Yes, and I am sure once her first hurt and anger about the faked pregnancy subsided she actually might have thought of it as a compliment. Lex went that far to marry HER! Of all the women he could have he only really wanted her.

In a way she was probably even relieved that she had not lost a real baby - miscarriages happen a lot during the first three months of a pregnancy but that does not make it easier. I remember trying not to think too much about it during the first three months so I would not be hurt if it was not supposed to be. Of course, Lex hurt her even more with him constantly reminding her of the pregnancy. But I doubt he did it to hurt her. I think it was to show her that he really wanted to start a family with her. And I think Lana understood that, too, after a while at least.

So Lex did everything possible that Lana would marry him, he must have really really wanted to marry her, right? After she found out about the faked pregnancy (and also because she wanted back to Clark) she hit back in typical Luthor style by faking her own death in a way that Lex would be accused. But when he finds out all he does is to appologize and to stand calmly in front of her to be killed? He accepts her wish of divorce, her return to his "enemy", her stealing 10 million Dollar from him, and even her spying on him as if she was nobody worth of any attention. Of course she was hurt by him ignoring her like that. I mean, first Clark with all his complicated and conflicting signals, okay, but you don't expect something like that from Lex Luthor who always knows what he wants. On the danger of sounding like a sexist again: what is a girl supposed to make of it?

I think at the beginning of season seven Lana understood that she didn't really wanted to be with Clark. The almost last drop (the last one was Bizarro) was to almost be killed so that Clark would become a superhero and save the world. But she wasn't and he didn't. And this again lead to her conflicting emotions regarding Lex. Her spying showed her that Lex was fully focused on saving Earth - how far would he go for it? Would he sacrifice her to make Clark leave the farm and become a superhero? Again and again we see her trying to make Clark leave the farm (Bizarro finally did and she was happy), but he didn't. Lex had once been a Warrior Angel fan, too, what if he thought it a good idea to kill her to turn Clark into a superhero to save the world. Saving the world was about everything Lex was still interested in - why should it be beyond him, he was Sageeth after all?

Seriously, I don't think "Wrath" was about the faked pregnancy any more. Things were much more complicated and serious for Lana by then.

There could be an element on Lana's part (following these events) that made her angry she hadn't been able to 'win the game' though, but I don't believe that was the main reason. I think she assumed Lex would have no qualms about destroying people considering what he did to her (she only full-out hated him after the baby revelation - for example, when she left him to die in Nemesis) and with that always on her mind, she wouldn't be able to see any future 'good' he did or would do.

But she did. She spied on him (and he completely ignored her doing it !) and didn't find anything she couldn't accept. Including 33.1 and the clones, btw. She never tried to publish 33.1 or the clone army. Only project Scion and only because she didn't know what it was about - she never would have tried to publish the whole Milton Fine story, right?

Oh yeah, I agree she was scared of herself, and I think she ended up almost split in three by trying to exist as the sweet farmer's wife, the business woman, and the last line of defense against Lex (in her mind, anyway!)

Yes, and Clark only wanted her to be the first one of those three. And people still believed that she would choose Clark over Lex. If Chloe had not been so occupied with her own life (being a meteor freak, the JLA, Kryptonians, and keeping everything from Jimmy) I am sure she would have seen through her.

[Arbar]

Q

As far as I understand Jor El, Clark can change the fate of individuals, not worlds or a species. However, if one knows whose fate to change one can alter the whole timeline. This seems to have been the plan of Jor El because he saw that Earth was as doomed as Krypton. There seem to be backdraws to this, though. Whenever Clark changes the fate of somebody another fate is changed, too. I think this was meant by Jor El when he told Clark that he could save Lana but somebody else had to die then. In Hereafter (season three) we see through Jordan Cross that when Clark changes the fate of one person (such as saving his life) other fates are affected (such as this guy then killing Lana and her friend). By using this "butterfly effect" Clark should indeed be able to alter the fate of humankind if he influences the right person or persons.

I see. I guess then I'd ask in general, why didn't he try to change the Naman/Segeeth prophesy? Or do you believe a prophesy is different from fate?

Take for example: Lex. If that scenario Jor El showed Clark in "Apocalypse" season seven was a possible one, Lex played a key role. We don't know what exactly his plan was, except that Brainiac encouraged him on it for own reasons. The Lex in that scenario could even have been "evil Lex" if the separation in Onyx would have happened in that timeline, too, and not corrected by Clark. I mean, something must have happened to Lex because Kara was rather confused by his behaviour and that suggests that he was not always like that, too. Somehow, I wonder if really Zod would have been the dominating personality in the body if Lex was not weakened by his two sides fighting each other. Guess, we will never find out.

I love wondering how stories would have turned out if only one thing had changed - I think your idea of Zod being dominant is great. (It;s also why I liked the season ten episodes that dealt with this - although I would have much preferred them to have occurred when MR and other actors were still around, to provide a fuller picture)

Why don't you start it?

Maybe I will - but you have to come and join it

That is what I think, too. It is one of Lex's dark spots. At times he is so absorbed into his plans and games he goes too far before realizing his mistake. As I said I don't think he wanted to get the Kents and Lana hurt and he even thought they were safe, but if he had looked at it again he should have known that they were not. But it is neglect rather than bad intentions.

But neglect or omission is often seen as akin to an actual action in terms of the duty of care humand owe other humans.

Oh, the Clex storyline I love, too. A reason why I slightly prefer the later seasons is that it was the "freak of the week" aspect that dominated many episodes in the first seasons. Not that they were bad, not at all, but I watched so many of their kind ("demon of the week" in Buffy, "head of the week" in Highlander, "break and enter into a X and steal a Y" in Alias) that I prefer story arcs and character devellopments. And those got more screen time in the later seasons.

Yeah, I can see your point. I usually love arcs, but unfortunately I started disliking the characters during season 5, so I just grew apathetic. I am planning on watching the episodes when they come up on repeats though. I think because of them never knowing when the series was going to end, I was disappointed in the long run with how soon the good Clex ended, and how low the Clana dragged on - both those apsects turned me off (and a lot of other people by the looks of it!) I would have liked Seasons 6 and 7, if I hadn't already fallen in love with how the first seasons were progressing!

Well, it is very human actually. Even the Federation conveniently forgets it's Prime Directive the moment humankind itself is prone to utter destruction. There is no limit for instincts, and the instinct to keep humankind survive is very strong - otherwise we wouldn't be here any more. The question is how much is necessary and did Lex go farther than necessary?

I think he did. But like I said, I'm a hippie

What I tried to point out is that SV Lex Luthor is a completely different person from the comic book Lex Luthor. As far as I know he would have used them to take over the world. SV Lex has different priorities.

Ah, I get you now. Point taken

I think Duncan actually weighted more on him. Duncan had been his friend after all, while Lana's doctor wanted to blackmail him (a million dollar if I recall correctly). In both cases however he became so angry he lost control over himself.

Agreed. I also think the doctor event occurred at a time when he was so 'lost' that he bottled everything up and couldn't take in what he'd done properly.

I didn't meant this in a sexist way. I just wanted to portray her fury. She was angry with Lex and she was angry with Clark, and she was even angry with Grant Gabriel when he didn't immediately printed her story. In my experience when women are angry with their husbands or boyfriends they often fall into this pattern of thought. It is not to degrade the men but to tell themselves that it is not really the men's fault that they do wrong. It is not rational, you don't expect rationality during fury, do you? but a way to excuse whatever goes wrong. In the same way we excuse all the nonsense children do, by telling ourselves they are but children, thus controlling anger. I don't think Lana thinks in this way when she is calm - but during a fury like that I would not be surprised. You think, she didn't know that in their struggle for power Lex had put Lionel into prison to die from his liver desease, and Lionel had Lex poisoned with a leathal poison. Hmmm... Sure, she was in Paris at that time but it should have been in the Daily Planet even if Chloe didn't brief her on it when she returned. And wouldn't it be out of character if she had not tried to know everything that had happened while she was in Paris? Just remember how she was pestering Clark all the time.

I generally only ever come across this attitude (not your attitude, the concept of women blaming men) in popular culture, and it's one that makes me want to growl. So I can't say that I would ever think of it, or use it in reference to Lana (and even if I thought it applied, I wouldn't use it because that can then serves to propogate these sexist ways of thinking!) What I do believe instead is that Lana when in a fury lashes out at *everyone* who does not behave how she wants them to, regardless of sex. She seems to believe that to defy Lana, is to be 'bad'!

I also think that, very naively, Lana believed that when it came to Lex, there were boundaries, and that being in a romantic relationship with him made her untouchable beyond a certain point. She's used to being adored; I suspect her thinking pattern was that Lana Lang, SV sweetheart, could never be just another person to be manipulated to him, but that she would be given a special place "by his side" if you will. Some of her fury could stem from the realization that she never was special in that way when she trusted that she was.She also had a tendency to suddenly believe whoever she was dating had no faults, so I see a lot of naivety there that couldn't prepare her for what happened - it could have been wilfull naivety, or unconscious.

As to what she knew about the Luthor game - well, it's open to interpretation because Smallville so often left the audience wondering who had been told about what. I also assume that Lana, self-involved as she is, would only pay full attention to what concerned her - which was at that time, Jason, and how jealous Clark would be about it.

Why do you call it a "chess game"?

Just an analogy - nothing deeper in my useage

She didn't detest him. In "Wrath" season seven she didn't act (and KK didn't act her) as if she detested him at all. She acted like a woman who felt neglected by the man of her choice. This was the origin of her fury and finally Lex recognized it as such and kissed her. And she kissed him back and let go of that high voltage wire.

My point is, no matter what good she saw Lex do, Lana's self-esteem and self-image had been hurt,- she'd been emotionally and phsysically manipulated, and she was mad as hell. It was a deeply personal wound against her, and Lana's characterization meant that she would never let that go. It wasn't about what he was doing to others - it was always about what he did to her. Even if he hadn't faked the pregnancy, the fact that Lana got tricked, got shown she wasn't somehow 'special' would be enough to infuriate her. And the idea of being special meant that when Lex kissed her, I think she had a moment of thinking that perhaps even after all that, there was something about her that made her different to him, because why else would he still want her? (<---Lana's thoughts there, not mine!)

Yes, and I am sure once her first hurt and anger about the faked pregnancy subsided she actually might have thought of it as a compliment. Lex went that far to marry HER! Of all the women he could have he only really wanted her.In a way she was probably even relieved that she had not lost a real baby - miscarriages happen a lot during the first three months of a pregnancy but that does not make it easier. I remember trying not to think too much about it during the first three months so I would not be hurt if it was not supposed to be. Of course, Lex hurt her even more with him constantly reminding her of the pregnancy. But I doubt he did it to hurt her. I think it was to show her that he really wanted to start a family with her. And I think Lana understood that, too, after a while at least. So Lex did everything possible that Lana would marry him, he must have really really wanted to marry her, right? After she found out about the faked pregnancy (and also because she wanted back to Clark) she hit back in typical Luthor style by faking her own death in a way that Lex would be accused. But when he finds out all he does is to appologize and to stand calmly in front of her to be killed? He accepts her wish of divorce, her return to his "enemy", her stealing 10 million Dollar from him, and even her spying on him as if she was nobody worth of any attention. Of course she was hurt by him ignoring her like that. I mean, first Clark with all his complicated and conflicting signals, okay, but you don't expect something like that from Lex Luthor who always knows what he wants. On the danger of sounding like a sexist again: what is a girl supposed to make of it?

I'm sorry, we'll have to just disagree on this. I really dislike the idea that a female character's motivation in this instance would only be about attention - wanting it to be bestowed, and hurting over a lack of it - from a man. Purely from her standpoint, she had been betrayed by Lex, she had something horrible done to her (the baby storyline) and she had been shown to be a fool for trusting him against others' advice, and for thinking she was special to him. That last one must have hurt Lana's self-esteem - and I think when's Lana's self is threatened in some way mentally, she turns vicious. However, I still believe that on a gut level, Lex putting her through thinking she'd lost a baby did make her hate him.

If he wanted to start a family, he could have proposed - isn't that enough? Why did he have to mis-use her body like that? I just don't like that Lex Luthor had to resort to trapping Lana Lang to keep her (besides the fact that I think Lana would have stayed with him had he not rushed it by causing the wedding which made Clark decide to act, and Lana so jittery that she resorted to tricking Clark's secret out of him.)

[QUOTE=Freawaru;7779537]
Yes, and Clark only wanted her to be the first one of those three. And people still believed that she would choose Clark over Lex. If Chloe had not been so occupied with her own life (being a meteor freak, the JLA, Kryptonians, and keeping everything from Jimmy) I am sure she would have seen through her[QUOTE]

I believe she ultimately didn't want either. I think she would never let herself look at her existing feelings for Lex, because that would open up a *lot* of self-questioing, and I think it was starting to emerge that Clark couldn't give her what she wanted. I guess Chloe did see through her quite a bit, but they didn't follow through with that.

[Freawaru]

I see. I guess then I'd ask in general, why didn't he try to change the Naman/Segeeth prophesy? Or do you believe a prophesy is different from fate?

Now that is a really good idea. Maybe, it never occurred to him. Lex seems to have wanted not to change the prophesy but to re-interpret it. By being "officially" Clark's opponent and the JLA fighting against him he might have thought to trick it. But then, there were also all these warnings that Lex would be responsible for the death of many humans and I suspect this was another reason why he taught the JLA to fight against him: he hoped when he would change and become evil they knew how to defeat him and prevent the death of others. Like Clark giving a meteor stone to whomever he trusted with his secret.

Maybe I will - but you have to come and join it

I would love to.

But neglect or omission is often seen as akin to an actual action in terms of the duty of care humand owe other humans.

That is why I think it is one of the mistakes Lex really has to work on. He has the power and he is a master schemer.

Agreed. I also think the doctor event occurred at a time when he was so 'lost' that he bottled everything up and couldn't take in what he'd done properly.

Even people who are as rational as Lex can have strong emotions, right?

I generally only ever come across this attitude (not your attitude, the concept of women blaming men) in popular culture, and it's one that makes me want to growl.

I know what you mean. I used to be rather angry when people wondered why I, as a girl, would read science fiction. But after reading "Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan I can only find the whole subject amusing.

What I do believe instead is that Lana when in a fury lashes out at *everyone* who does not behave how she wants them to, regardless of sex. She seems to believe that to defy Lana, is to be 'bad'!

Sounds plausible. After all she did hit Lois unconscious.

I also think that, very naively, Lana believed that when it came to Lex, there were boundaries, and that being in a romantic relationship with him made her untouchable beyond a certain point.

She was - they just had different of those "points" in mind. Lex never had any qualms even about letting dubious experiments on himself being done. The hormons didn't harm her body. Mind you, I still think he should not have done it, but one should not overrate it, either.

She also had a tendency to suddenly believe whoever she was dating had no faults, so I see a lot of naivety there that couldn't prepare her for what happened - it could have been wilfull naivety, or unconscious.

Why do you think that?

As to what she knew about the Luthor game - well, it's open to interpretation because Smallville so often left the audience wondering who had been told about what. I also assume that Lana, self-involved as she is, would only pay full attention to what concerned her - which was at that time, Jason, and how jealous Clark would be about it.

That is possible, I guess. But it would throw a bad light on Chloe. Also, Lana had first hand experience with "evil" Lex in "Onyx". She knew that that was a part of him. Not the whole - but a part, nevertheless.

My point is, no matter what good she saw Lex do, Lana's self-esteem and self-image had been hurt,- she'd been emotionally and phsysically manipulated, and she was mad as hell. It was a deeply personal wound against her, and Lana's characterization meant that she would never let that go. It wasn't about what he was doing to others - it was always about what he did to her.

Yeah, he tricked her. And he gave her hormons and make her go through emotional pain. Still, don't you think it should still count that he risked his own life for hers at least three times (three times that she knows about, anyway). Jitters, Lockdown, and Fade. Lana is neither stupid nor naive. I think she can be very emotional - but once the emotions subside she might be rational again.

That is why I think her fury when confronting him in "Wrath" was about the present and the future. Not the past.

Even if he hadn't faked the pregnancy, the fact that Lana got tricked, got shown she wasn't somehow 'special' would be enough to infuriate her.

But she was special. Special enough for him to go to such lenghs to marry her. Right how "evil" Lex was going to close the Talon if she wouldn't live with him in the mansion.

And the idea of being special meant that when Lex kissed her, I think she had a moment of thinking that perhaps even after all that, there was something about her that made her different to him, because why else would he still want her? (<---Lana's thoughts there, not mine!)

I agree that it wasn't about others. That was just a convenient excuse for her spying on him - something he actually appreciated.

I really dislike the idea that a female character's motivation in this instance would only be about attention - wanting it to be bestowed, and hurting over a lack of it - from a man.

Why ?

Purely from her standpoint, she had been betrayed by Lex, she had something horrible done to her (the baby storyline) and she had been shown to be a fool for trusting him against others' advice, and for thinking she was special to him. That last one must have hurt Lana's self-esteem - and I think when's Lana's self is threatened in some way mentally, she turns vicious.

Lana was special to about everybody. Why should it hurt her self-esteem so much if one single person threatened it?

However, I still believe that on a gut level, Lex putting her through thinking she'd lost a baby did make her hate him.

She was clearly infuriated by it. Hate, however, I doubt it.

If he wanted to start a family, he could have proposed - isn't that enough?

I don't think so. Not with Lana still having feelings for Clark like that. It was Clark who ended their relationship, not Lana. And both knew that Clark was, well, Clark. And we saw that even with the pregnancy Lana was not sure she wanted to marry him because of Clark. In fact, the moment she learned Clark wanted her after all she already thought about how to leave Lex again.

Why did he have to mis-use her body like that? I just don't like that Lex Luthor had to resort to trapping Lana Lang to keep her (besides the fact that I think Lana would have stayed with him had he not rushed it by causing the wedding which made Clark decide to act, and Lana so jittery that she resorted to tricking Clark's secret out of him.)

I am not sure. Lex said several times that he didn't have much time with Lana. Maybe it was because of all those visions and warnings. He must have worried that something like with Zod or in Onyx would happen again. The whole time with Lana he seemed to feel a need to hurry: marry her, teach her, give her resources, money, power, and information and teach her how to get it all by herself. He did not seem to really believe that there would be the time for them to start a family, to be happy.

I believe she ultimately didn't want either. I think she would never let herself look at her existing feelings for Lex, because that would open up a *lot* of self-questioing,

Might have been a good arc and character devellopment. They hinted the whole time that Lana would have to fight her own darkness (even Lara, Clark's mother, told her so). As to not wanting either, maybe. We will see if BQM has some good ideas here.

and I think it was starting to emerge that Clark couldn't give her what she wanted.

Yes, and that is why she didn't want to return to Clark in season eight. She finally decided to after all but had a plan how to leave Clark without him being angry with her.

There is something else. About the Lex-clones. I have not watched season 10 and it looks like I have to wait at least till autuum but I read some reviews and recaps. It seems to me that the Lex-clones recieved an imperfect memory and thus a distorted personality. The Lex clone in season eight didn't remember that Lex had told Clark that in his opinion it was not a good idea to kill someone close to a hero to turn him into a superhero. I think, Lex just looked into himself and saw that he was doing everything for those he loved, to keep them alive. It would not have made much sense to Lex to kill Lana (or make her leave Clark) because then Clark might not have as much reason to help humankind as with Lana. Other clones show odd behaviour, too. One told Clark that Clark had been spying on Lex the whole time - while it had been the other way round. And Alexander shaved his head, Lex always wanted hair - real hair, I stongly doubt he would have done that. And why should Lex hate the symbol of El? There is nothing till Arctic that shows that Lex hated Clark or his family. My question is, is this distortion of the personality and the memory due to a problem in the procedure or was it intentionally inserted by someone, and if yes, why? Any ideas? Also, why are the Lex clones so instable, when Julien clones were not?

[Arbar]

Now that is a really good idea. Maybe, it never occurred to him. Lex seems to have wanted not to change the prophesy but to re-interpret it. By being "officially" Clark's opponent and the JLA fighting against him he might have thought to trick it. But then, there were also all these warnings that Lex would be responsible for the death of many humans and I suspect this was another reason why he taught the JLA to fight against him: he hoped when he would change and become evil they knew how to defeat him and prevent the death of others. Like Clark giving a meteor stone to whomever he trusted with his secret.

Another interesting interpretation - it would add depth to Lex's actions. I suppose I'm more fixated on why it didn't occur to Clark - he wasn't above changing fate when it came to people he cared about, and yet he didn't really do anything to combat a prophesy that would inevitably hurt a lot of people. In fact, it was a self-fulfilling prophesy to an extent, because once he heard the legend, and saw Lex touch the knife, he began to act in a way that would drive Lex away. So did he actually make the prophesy come true, simply because he believed in it?

She was - they just had different of those "points" in mind. Lex never had any qualms even about letting dubious experiments on himself being done. The hormons didn't harm her body. Mind you, I still think he should not have done it, but one should not overrate it, either.

Experimenting on himself is fine, if he wants to do it - but Lana's part in that particular experiment was not consensual - that's the difference to me. (She did get headaches, fainting spells and other symptoms - not terrible side-effects, but they were harmful)

Why do you think that?

Heh, I was being a bit hyperbolic there. I was referring to how she ignores everyone's warnings when she first gets involved with Lex, and even rejects them outright. It seems to be a pattern that if someone says something against someone she's dating, she lashes out at the messenger first. To be fair, a lot of the time people just told her not to see someone, or not to get involved without giving her a good reason, so she is often quite justified!

[QUOTE=Freawaru;7781203]

That is possible, I guess. But it would throw a bad light on Chloe. Also, Lana had first hand experience with "evil" Lex in "Onyx". She knew that that was a part of him. Not the whole - but a part, nevertheless.

Yeah, he tricked her. And he gave her hormons and make her go through emotional pain. Still, don't you think it should still count that he risked his own life for hers at least three times (three times that she knows about, anyway). Jitters, Lockdown, and Fade. Lana is neither stupid nor naive. I think she can be very emotional - but once the emotions subside she might be rational again.

Probably this is another place where we differ in perspective - I don't think I could weigh and balance things quite like that, and say that because someone did good acts, the bad acts they recently did can be crossed out. (Like a retrospective redemption....Just kidding ) But I can see the other viewpoint too. I'm not sure Lana would think like that though, but I can't say either way in reality. It's not particular to do with emotions, it's to do with asking herself if the potential harm he could cause, and has caused, is worth sticking around on the chance that he could be her rescuer again.

Why ?

Because it harks back to the denigrating way women have been (and still are) perceived by society - motivated by men's whims, desires and attention. It suggests that Lana is angry and hurt not for legitimate, rational reasons, but because she couldn't 'fascinate' Lex any longer.

Lana was special to about everybody. Why should it hurt her self-esteem so much if one single person threatened it?

Well, my answer to that is: she's Lana. She wants those who she esteems to esteem her too. It's not that one person threatened it - it's *who* that one person was in relation to her.

I don't think so. Not with Lana still having feelings for Clark like that. It was Clark who ended their relationship, not Lana. And both knew that Clark was, well, Clark. And we saw that even with the pregnancy Lana was not sure she wanted to marry him because of Clark. In fact, the moment she learned Clark wanted her after all she already thought about how to leave Lex again.

So Lex's plan didn't actually work, did it? I think that's the problem I have - is Lex really so old-fashioned that he thinks Lana will automatically marry him if she's pregnant? It just seems, to be frank, a stupid plan, especially if he knows she'll run to Clark whenever he asks her to. But I guess that's canon - Lex often didn't think through his plans!

I am not sure. Lex said several times that he didn't have much time with Lana. Maybe it was because of all those visions and warnings. He must have worried that something like with Zod or in Onyx would happen again. The whole time with Lana he seemed to feel a need to hurry: marry her, teach her, give her resources, money, power, and information and teach her how to get it all by herself. He did not seem to really believe that there would be the time for them to start a family, to be happy.

Hmmm....if he didn't think there was time to be happy or start a family, what need was there for him to marry her? Teach her, give her resources, yes, (I like those ideas ) but if he's not going to be around as you suggest, he doesn't need to trick her into a marriage.

There is something else. About the Lex-clones. I have not watched season 10 and it looks like I have to wait at least till autuum but I read some reviews and recaps. It seems to me that the Lex-clones recieved an imperfect memory and thus a distorted personality. The Lex clone in season eight didn't remember that Lex had told Clark that in his opinion it was not a good idea to kill someone close to a hero to turn him into a superhero. I think, Lex just looked into himself and saw that he was doing everything for those he loved, to keep them alive. It would not have made much sense to Lex to kill Lana (or make her leave Clark) because then Clark might not have as much reason to help humankind as with Lana. Other clones show odd behaviour, too. One told Clark that Clark had been spying on Lex the whole time - while it had been the other way round. And Alexander shaved his head, Lex always wanted hair - real hair, I stongly doubt he would have done that. And why should Lex hate the symbol of El? There is nothing till Arctic that shows that Lex hated Clark or his family. My question is, is this distortion of the personality and the memory due to a problem in the procedure or was it intentionally inserted by someone, and if yes, why? Any ideas? Also, why are the Lex clones so instable, when Julien clones were not?

I've only skipped through season 10, so I'm not sure of the details either, but that always puzzled me too. On the question of the first clone, you're assuming that his motivation for placing the bomb was killing Lana - I didn't get that from his motivation, so I can't answer that one. But I think the points about the other clones are definitely interesting. I tend to assume that the clones didn't need to be perfect mentally since they were only going to be used to heal Lex. (The new comics confirmation that Lex was an assembly of clone parts doesn't qute gel with that, since I thought beforehand that original Lex was still around somewhere, just biding him time while he healed. I guess his brain could still have been in tact though.) The other point is, Julian had a few months of memories, personal growth etc. before he was killed. When Lex created memories and experiences for him, he was essentially drawing on an almost clean piece of paper. And we can't say for certain that the Julian clones didn't have the same kind of inconsistencies, because we did't *know* Julian over the course of how ever many years. The Lex clones, on the other hand, had all the memories and thought processes of original Lex to deal with - I think some of them couldn't assimilate them properly, some rebelled against them etc. I think that once the clone is out of the tube, they're not necessarily going to have the same reactions that the original did, because free will still would play a part. Argh, I may have just opened a can of worms on the subject of cloning :

[Freawaru]

Another interesting interpretation - it would add depth to Lex's actions.

It would also explain a lot about what happened in season six and seven. Like the odd way our heroes met Black Canary for example. Or how easily they found Bart in "Justice". Why Lex was not at all bothered by Lionel accusing him to let the terrorists compromise six 33.1 facilities. Why Lex first tried to make Chloe quit her job at the Daily Planet and when she didn't he fired her at the next best reason. And, and, and.

I suppose I'm more fixated on why it didn't occur to Clark - he wasn't above changing fate when it came to people he cared about, and yet he didn't really do anything to combat a prophesy that would inevitably hurt a lot of people.

Maybe. But originally the prophesy was there to save mankind. As far as I understood it Earth is doomed. Jor El had time travel and he must have seen that Earth would be destroyed just like Krypton. The whole Traveler plan of Jor El was to give it a chance. A chance that might be the reason for Earth's destruction in the end, but Chloe made the same choice of taking her chances when she simply injected Lex what might be the antidote or not when he was dead.

In fact, it was a self-fulfilling prophesy to an extent, because once he heard the legend, and saw Lex touch the knife, he began to act in a way that would drive Lex away. So did he actually make the prophesy come true, simply because he believed in it?

That is how prophesies usually work, right?

It's not particular to do with emotions, it's to do with asking herself if the potential harm he could cause, and has caused, is worth sticking around on the chance that he could be her rescuer again.

But think about Lex in "Shattered" and "Asylum". It was not only the fault of Lionel that Lex suffered so much there. He was drugged, handcuffed, mistreated, electroshocked. And who could have prevented it? Clark. But he didn't. He didn't because everybody he trusted was against it. His parents, Chloe, Lana. They all knew that it had been a trick of Lionel, that Lex was not really mentally ill. The Kents knew that it would be easy for Clark to free Lex but forbid it. Chloe and Lana at least suspected that Clark had some powers and they could have asked him if there was not a way to help Lex. But they didn't. Lana was in hospital, yes, but she was healthy enough to break up with Clark, she could at least have tried to help Lex by encouraging Clark. She didn't. They all just let Lionel do whatever he wanted to do to Lex and Jonathan even hoped Lex would never leave Belle Reve.

Now, if you compare their behaviour and what was done to Lex in these episodes with their consent, with what was done to Lana by Lex, what is worse? If you ask me Lana had the better part. They all cannot be trusted, right? The potential harm people like the Kents, Chloe and Lana can cause, is it worth sticking around them on the chance that once in a while they rescue somebody?

If Lex is pure evil because of what he did to Lana - what are the Kents, Chloe, and Lana? What is Clark because he listens to them instead of doing what he knows is right?

What Lex did was wrong, but that is no reason to condem him. If I did condem Lex I would have to condem them all.

Because it harks back to the denigrating way women have been (and still are) perceived by society - motivated by men's whims, desires and attention. It suggests that Lana is angry and hurt not for legitimate, rational reasons, but because she couldn't 'fascinate' Lex any longer.

Is this so? I never noticed. Maybe I am living in a different society someplace on the far side of the moon of a different planet in another galaxy.

Well, my answer to that is: she's Lana. She wants those who she esteems to esteem her too. It's not that one person threatened it - it's *who* that one person was in relation to her.

That is how it seems to me, too. And that means, Lex means a lot to her. Even after she returned to Clark, Lex meant a lot to her. She usually forgot all about her other boyfriends, Whitney, Jason, or whoever she was dating, when she was with Clark. But not Lex.

So Lex's plan didn't actually work, did it? I think that's the problem I have - is Lex really so old-fashioned that he thinks Lana will automatically marry him if she's pregnant?

I suspect so. He still had the sweet, naive Lana-image of "Lexmas" in mind. But Lana is not like that at all and we saw that even pregnant she decided not to marry Lex as long as she could return to Clark. Lex told Lana he underestimated her and I think he did. Lionel finally got it right: she is a Luthor.

It just seems, to be frank, a stupid plan, especially if he knows she'll run to Clark whenever he asks her to. But I guess that's canon - Lex often didn't think through his plans!

Yes, looks like that to me, too. He feels sure he had everything and everybody under control but he has not and things go wrong.

Hmmm....if he didn't think there was time to be happy or start a family, what need was there for him to marry her? Teach her, give her resources, yes, (I like those ideas ) but if he's not going to be around as you suggest, he doesn't need to trick her into a marriage.

Status! Being Mrs. Luthor or even Ms. Ex-Luthor gives her status. I know there is no nobility officially but we saw that in general people in the series classify others in this way nevertheless. For example Ollie and his friends were against Duncan just because he was not born rich and powerful. Lex was born a Luthor and Jonathan never was able to see beyond that. Tess had to fight odds Lana never would have, just because she was never offically a Luthor. People in season eight would have treated her differently if they had known that she was Lex's half sister. By marrying Lana Lex managed to smooth obstacles before they even crossed her way. She won't be just another Ms. Ex- Lexgirl.

I've only skipped through season 10, so I'm not sure of the details either, but that always puzzled me too. On the question of the first clone, you're assuming that his motivation for placing the bomb was killing Lana - I didn't get that from his motivation, so I can't answer that one.

I don't think the idea was to kill Lana, either. Especially, as I think Lana was the one to plan it in the first place, and I even think she planted the kryptonite bomb - she had the time and the superpower to do it without anybody knowing it.

I think the idea was to separate Clark and Lana - without killing her, and without making Clark angry with her. "Officially" the idea was to turn Clark into a superhero by loosing Lana (same idea as in "Warrior Angel"). In fact, I think it likely that it was Lana who activated the Lex clone in the first place. Lana knew everything about the clones as Lex didn't keep anything from her and she had made it her full time job to spy on him. She had the motive, the intelligence, the resources, and the knowledge to activate a Lex clone when the real Lex didn't return from the arctis.

But I think the points about the other clones are definitely interesting. I tend to assume that the clones didn't need to be perfect mentally since they were only going to be used to heal Lex. (The new comics confirmation that Lex was an assembly of clone parts doesn't qute gel with that, since I thought beforehand that original Lex was still around somewhere, just biding him time while he healed. I guess his brain could still have been in tact though.)

With Lex's healing powers what kind of desease or illness should he have to take so long to heal? If you ask me Lex never returned from the Fortress - at least not in the flesh. Maybe his original body is still somewhere in Jor El. Or it died somehow and Lex was a kind of spirit until possessing the composite clone.

The other point is, Julian had a few months of memories, personal growth etc. before he was killed. When Lex created memories and experiences for him, he was essentially drawing on an almost clean piece of paper. And we can't say for certain that the Julian clones didn't have the same kind of inconsistencies, because we did't *know* Julian over the course of how ever many years.

Yes, we don't know much about the Julien clones. Would the real Julien have become a killer like his clones? He was a Luthor after all. But I guess, we never will know. The Julien clones recieved a memory that was completely faked. Like in Blade Runner. That is why Grant Gabriel didn't even suspect he was a clone, he remembered being alive for decades. He remembered a childhood he never had.

The Lex clones, on the other hand, had all the memories and thought processes of original Lex to deal with

And that is my question: do they really have his memories and thought processes? Or was it like with the Julien clones and someone fashioned them. Someone who knew Lex well. Like Lana. Or even Lanarainiac - we never found out if her Brainiac infection had any effect on her. After all, Brainiac was quite busy in Chloe at that time. We never see somebody who is infected by an A.I. getting free from it again except Chloe. Both Lionel and that archeologist who were infected by the A.I. Jor El stayed so till death. Chloe was infected by Brainiac and after some months Brainiac controled her. But what about Lana's infection?

- I think some of them couldn't assimilate them properly, some rebelled against them etc. I think that once the clone is out of the tube, they're not necessarily going to have the same reactions that the original did, because free will still would play a part. Argh, I may have just opened a can of worms on the subject of cloning :

Let's stick to the cloning that was introduced in Smallville so far, okay? The Kryptonians had a way to clone a person including what seems to be the memories and personality of the time the DNA (and memory) was copied. This seemed to have worked quite well.

Luthorcorp experimented with cloning. We see clones since that friend of Lana who died in the river and was cloned by her father. But this clone didn't recieve any memory or personality copy. It was a completely different person.

That "exploding baby" provided Lex with a way to increase the speed of aging of the clones. It didn't take long until a clone was adult, days maybe. But still such a clone didn't have a personality. Lex used these kind of clones as soldiers and Lana used her own clone to fake her death.

It seems Lex wanted to go a step further then. Like in BladeRunner he tried to implement memories and a personality into the impersonal clones. I think it likely that he used Julien's DNA as prototype because he knew that once they had a personality they were like real humans to him - we know that he was only able to kill the first Julien clone after he commited murder, and having to kill Grant Gabriel hurt Lex like hell.

But Grant Gabriel seemed not to age too fast, or to have that strange kind of desease all the Lex clones had - except the composite one, and Alexander/Connor (but he is part Kryptonian).

We know that Lex experimented with memories, maybe he did find a way to copy it somehow. But all the Lex clones' memories seem distorted. Even the composite clone told Clark that he, Lex, had been hurt by Clark not accepting his fate. Hu? We never saw that. On the contrary, it was Lex who always had problems accepting his own fate, who even in season seven tried so hard to still be Clark's friend. Who always protected Clark and his friends. Seriously, not even the "evil Lex" in Onyx wanted Clark as his enemy - after his attempt to murder Clark failed he went straight to trying to get Clark to work for him or with him, no matter the means he had to use. The only enemy "evil Lex" saw was "good Lex", not Clark. And then, this talk about how Clark having always been a step ahead of Lex. Who is he kidding? Lex was always a step ahead of Clark and when Clark finally got there, too, Lex retreated willingly and let Clark save the day. If you ask me this sounds more like Lana than Lex. She was hurt by Clark not accepting his fate and leaving the farm. She never knew that Lex told Clark that the Warrior Angel scenario of a person becoming a superhero because his beloved was killed was nonsense.

Seriously, I think someone meddled with the memories of the clones. And I can't help but suspect it to be Lana or Lanarainiac.

[the jester]

But Conner now has Clark Martha and Lois to guide him but we saw in Scion that his darkness is still deep in him and it's up to him to battle it. With Lex he is alone with all the power of Lexcorp at his finger tips and from what we know of Lex that power will corrupt him.

[retconville]

"Just an ordinary man - but with the cloned brain of a super-genius!"