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  1. #16
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    Some trains of thought believe that Michael and Jesus are one in the same. Because there has never been mention of Jesus before one could assume that Michael being the oldest and first born of the Arch Angels is equal to Jesus. This would give him the Power to take Cas or the Leviathans out

  2. #17
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    Quite possible. I believe Castiel (Misha Collins) is going to be filtered out however, so I don't believe he will be a main vessel so-to-speak for our "big bads" this year, like we had for Azazel, Lilith or Lucifer

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcufehttahw View Post
    Well just for the sake of simplicity, I'll refer him to his vessel form - Castiel stated to Crowley that they only needed to keep Michael locked in the pit. He didn't mention Lucifer
    It's kinda implied that Castiel was referring to Lucifer though as he told Crowley he wanted to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage, although if he was just focusing on Michael, he'd probably just say he wanted to keep Michael in the cage. That's what I thought when he only said Michael.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nike View Post
    Some trains of thought believe that Michael and Jesus are one in the same. Because there has never been mention of Jesus before one could assume that Michael being the oldest and first born of the Arch Angels is equal to Jesus. This would give him the Power to take Cas or the Leviathans out
    Well Eve did mention Jesus just being a "human" in "...And Then There Were None". I, myself, prefer Jesus just to be some "human" than actually being Michael in just a different vessel on Earth 2,000 years ago.

  4. #19
    Mr. Not-So Comatose xrayvision's Avatar
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    I think if there's any person representing Jesus in this show, I'd say it's Chuck. According to Christianity, Jesus is God incarnate and with all the clues in Supernatural that point to Chuck being God (Mistress Magda, the way he vanished in that ether in Swan Song, Joshua saying that God was on Earth which Chuck was, etc.) along with Chuck's very humble nature, if there's any Supernatural character representing Jesus, it's him. Even his appearance...if you imagine his hair a little longer and his beard a little more pronounced...he even looks like the way Jesus is depicted in Renaissance paintings. I don't think it will be confirmed in the show itself though Rob Benedict confirmed it at a panel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni7uidj9Rx8

    It would be ironic if it's the case given how Raphael said that God was dead but was the archangel assigned to protecting Chuck. I know Jesus won't be mentioned in the show to avoid offending too many viewers, but if it's confirmed Chuck is God then that could be a nod to Chuck representing Jesus for viewers who believe in Christianity. I wouldn't have a problem with them confirming Chuck is God because that would leave it up to the viewers if they want to also consider him to be Jesus or not.

  5. #20
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    I don't mean to keep trying to shoot anyone else's opinion down, however I have read certain speculation which has me thinking the same thing. I believe that throughout the episode Sam's visions of Hell were all hallucinations EXCEPT Lucifer. When Sam was pulled out of the cage, I believe that it was quite possible for Lucifer to somehow attach himself or at least a portion of himself to Sam's soul, so therefore I believe Lucifer is actually present. And I believe Castiel could possibly know this, which is why he only mentioned keeping Michael imprisoned. And of course Michael did not leave because he is attached to Adam. Just food for thought.

  6. #21
    Forum Regular SuperNinjaAlex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcufehttahw View Post
    I don't mean to keep trying to shoot anyone else's opinion down, however I have read certain speculation which has me thinking the same thing. I believe that throughout the episode Sam's visions of Hell were all hallucinations EXCEPT Lucifer. When Sam was pulled out of the cage, I believe that it was quite possible for Lucifer to somehow attach himself or at least a portion of himself to Sam's soul, so therefore I believe Lucifer is actually present. And I believe Castiel could possibly know this, which is why he only mentioned keeping Michael imprisoned. And of course Michael did not leave because he is attached to Adam. Just food for thought.
    If thats the case then, in GodCas/Leviathans eyes lucifer is no longer a threat to him or completely powerless in which case hed be useless to everyone including as an ally...which i doubt hed ever agree too

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrayvision View Post
    I think if there's any person representing Jesus in this show, I'd say it's Chuck. According to Christianity, Jesus is God incarnate and with all the clues in Supernatural that point to Chuck being God (Mistress Magda, the way he vanished in that ether in Swan Song, Joshua saying that God was on Earth which Chuck was, etc.) along with Chuck's very humble nature, if there's any Supernatural character representing Jesus, it's him. Even his appearance...if you imagine his hair a little longer and his beard a little more pronounced...he even looks like the way Jesus is depicted in Renaissance paintings. I don't think it will be confirmed in the show itself though Rob Benedict confirmed it at a panel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni7uidj9Rx8

    It would be ironic if it's the case given how Raphael said that God was dead but was the archangel assigned to protecting Chuck. I know Jesus won't be mentioned in the show to avoid offending too many viewers, but if it's confirmed Chuck is God then that could be a nod to Chuck representing Jesus for viewers who believe in Christianity. I wouldn't have a problem with them confirming Chuck is God because that would leave it up to the viewers if they want to also consider him to be Jesus or not.
    Chuck was more God than Jesus, imo.

    But that irony you brought up was supposed to be there ever since Chuck vanished at the end of "Swan Song". I mean, Raphael protecting God and saying He was actually dead, Castiel not knowing and the necklace not burning red hot was all part of the irony game, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcufehttahw View Post
    I don't mean to keep trying to shoot anyone else's opinion down, however I have read certain speculation which has me thinking the same thing. I believe that throughout the episode Sam's visions of Hell were all hallucinations EXCEPT Lucifer. When Sam was pulled out of the cage, I believe that it was quite possible for Lucifer to somehow attach himself or at least a portion of himself to Sam's soul, so therefore I believe Lucifer is actually present. And I believe Castiel could possibly know this, which is why he only mentioned keeping Michael imprisoned. And of course Michael did not leave because he is attached to Adam. Just food for thought.
    And I don't mean to shoot your opinion down, but I hope your theory doesn't come to fruition. Sam can't always have some kind of monkey on his back and there would be no way for Sam to get rid of Lucifer at all if Satan himself is strapped unto his soul. And plus, this just shows how Gabriel learned his tricks from Lucifer, which Lucy playing up this game of Sam still being in Hell. It's a nice ploy, but to have Lucifer be inside Sam, in any way, is just dragging out a storyline.

  8. #23
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    Anno, I do agree with you. Although I am a fan of the Michael/Lucifer storyline I believe Sam needs to be on his own. Like you said it seems he always has a monkey on his back. Meg, Azazel, Ruby, Lucifer.....I was just curious as to why they brought Michael back up if he would not fit into the story this year. And I do admit, during Season 5 I would have liked to have seen his full potential with the exception of smoking Anna. They really didn't show him much. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

  9. #24
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    Oh, I believe Michael and Lucifer could make a return, but I definitely don't want Lucifer to be tied up to Sam this entire time. I think a Michael/Dean and Lucifer/Sam v Leviathans would be something quite extraordinary. But for now? I'd rather Sam "kick the habit" with seeing Lucifer either in "Hello Cruel World" or early in the season, so that's probably why I couldn't see Lucifer strapped to Sam's soul. Just as a hallucination of sorts? Maybe a VERY powerful hallucination, but that's about it I think.

  10. #25
    Mr. Not-So Comatose xrayvision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
    And I don't mean to shoot your opinion down, but I hope your theory doesn't come to fruition. Sam can't always have some kind of monkey on his back and there would be no way for Sam to get rid of Lucifer at all if Satan himself is strapped unto his soul. And plus, this just shows how Gabriel learned his tricks from Lucifer, which Lucy playing up this game of Sam still being in Hell. It's a nice ploy, but to have Lucifer be inside Sam, in any way, is just dragging out a storyline.
    Well if this is a monkey, it would be a different one that the ones in the past. In the past the monkeys were demon blood, the powers that stem from demon blood, and not having a soul. Here it would be more like torture & revenge for what Sam did to Lucifer and wouldn't be a case of Sam having something that could make him potentially evil. Instead Sam would be an unwilling participant unlike what he was doing with Ruby or what he did while soulless.

    And I do think that if this happens, there would be a way of ridding himself of Lucifer's presence somehow, and that it relates to what Death wanted them to find out about souls. I don't think Death simply wanted them to find out what Cas was doing with the souls, but wanted the Winchesters to make a breakthrough discovery that no human or perhaps even angel knew, and that's how to not be influenced by angels and demons or how to remove their influence.

    The reason why I want something like that to happen is because it would make for a very interesting plot and I think other characters could contribute to it too, like Missouri Mosely. It would also show the beauty in God's plan because He would have a way for his most prized creations (humans) of breaking the hold of other more powerful creations on them, whether they are angels, demons, or perhaps even Leviathans. And I would love to see Sam ultimately turn the tables on Lucifer to the point where he can get some payback & even put him into a position where he's forced to help them with the Leviathans.

    I don't know if the current Sam plot could even work unless Lucifer is either in Sam somehow or still has a piece of Sam with him in the cage. If it's just severe torture that Sam received, I don't think it would be as believable.

  11. #26
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    If it's just severe torture that Sam received, I don't think it would be as believable.
    It's as believable as everything else in this series, lol.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoaibs48 View Post
    Death said God created purgatory to lock away the leviathans so maybe God created the Archangels to put them into purgatory.
    Good theory for sure. Archangels are heaven's most terrifying weapon, they are soldiers. It's very possible that God created the first angels, and the arch angels, to specifically deal with the leviathans. It's very possible that they could have something built inside of them or a weapon that could f--k with leviathans.

    In terms of angel power, if they ever bring the seraphim into the show, I firmly believe that nothing could top their power. If you read about the seraphim it's just mind boggling how powerful they are. Not even other arch angels can look upon a seraphim, save for Gabriel because he was the holy messenger of Heaven. For a while I thought Metatron would definitely be in Season 7 - I gotta say I'm disappointed.

    ----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
    If that's true, then Lucifer could turn into an ally of sorts. Which...would be VERY interesting.
    I was literally *dying* for Lucifer to become an ally before I saw ep. 2. Now I don't think it's gonna happen. I was really hoping Lucifer would give tips to Sam about dealing with the leviathan through Sam's psychic connection with Lucifer. Maybe it'll still happen?

    And this whole "leviathans are older than angels/arch angels so they are stronger thing" is absolute nonsense. We're not talking about True Blood here guys, we're talking about Supernatural. Older doesn't always mean stronger, and it was God that created them. God could create a plankton tomorrow that could devour the universe.
    Last edited by Sotaris; 10-01-2011 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #28
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    Well, I have a theory that the Leviathans were a mesh-up of what we have of humans and monsters in this day. They didn't have souls, but they were creatures, and they are sea-like beings, so humans could possibly have been a form of "simple" Leviathans since humans were fish once. Being a mesh of both ideas could give reason as to how powerful the Leviathans are.

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