Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Questions I have after last season & watching Meet The New Boss

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Questions I have after last season & watching Meet The New Boss

    I have a bunch of questions & observations I wanted to mention after watching last season & this season's premiere:

    1. Eve said that she is older than angels. The alpha vampire, who she created said he was the thing in the dark when humans built fire, which dates much further back than the age of angels & the archangels. Castiel in The Man Who Would Be King comments on how he witnessed the birth of humanity, which would have occurred before what the alpha vampire said. So I'm confused with who's older than who. Did Eve need humans as a base ingredient to create her alpha monsters or did she create them out of nothing? And wouldn't the creation of alphas & their first generations of children be dependent on humans since it seems like all monsters feed on humans in some form?

    2. Is Sam seeing Lucifer in the embodiment of Nick because that's how he mostly remembers him? Because Lucifer in his true form would not look like Nick since he was only his vessel. Given that this all seems to be in Sam's head, I'm guessing that the representation of Lucifer as Nick wouldn't contradict with anything.

    3. I noticed how in this episode when Death was bound he had chains on his wrist, but back in Two Minutes to Midnight, no such chains were seen. Do you think they shouldn't have shown the chains just to be consistent, even though I thought they were cool.

    4. In this episode, Dean said that as long as they're bound to Death, Castiel couldn't kill them. Does this mean that it would have been impossible for Michael to kill Lucifer had Lucifer not been sent back to his cage since at the time Death was bound to him? Or were the binding spells they used different so that Death was bound to Lucifer as a servant but was bound to the Winchesters & Bobby as a shield & weapon? Why didn't they just borrow his scythe & use it to kill Cas?

    5. I'm really looking forward to seeing Supernatural's depiction of hell as it comes to Earth in Sam's mind. I would love to see what Michael & Lucifer did to him in the cage and if Michael participated in the torture & changed since we last saw him.

    6. Is Cas really dead? I don't think so, but I'm dying to find out. I also wonder about Jimmy's soul & if it's still in his body with Cas.

  • #2
    1. Eve (if she's telling the truth) could still be older than the angels. Maybe she's from the same time as the Leviathans or soon after. She didn't make her creations until later though, when she had humans to play with. My guess, anyway.

    2. Probably. And because it's how we know him. It could be argued that Sam sees Lucifer as he saw him in the pit, and we have no way to represent that other than Nick. But either or.

    3. He didn't have them on the whole time though, I guess he can choose to show his chains. Or not.

    4. That right there is a plot hole brought on by Supernatural's definition of death, which is murky to say the least.

    5. I won't complain about any more archangels. I do hope we get better than the same fire shot, and a red-lit Bobbys basement though.

    6. I don't think Cas is dead. I actually thought for a second Jimmy was gonna wake up in massive pain of course, and the story would be Cas was trapped in purgatory, which would have made sense. I thought the story would then be the leviathans already got out. Obviously I was wrong, but that's what I was expecting in that scene.

    Comment


    • #3
      One thing I can count on are your threads for every new episode of Supernatural. Continuity is the key, yes?

      Originally posted by xrayvision
      I have a bunch of questions & observations I wanted to mention after watching last season & this season's premiere:

      1. Eve said that she is older than angels. The alpha vampire, who she created said he was the thing in the dark when humans built fire, which dates much further back than the age of angels & the archangels. Castiel in The Man Who Would Be King comments on how he witnessed the birth of humanity, which would have occurred before what the alpha vampire said. So I'm confused with who's older than who. Did Eve need humans as a base ingredient to create her alpha monsters or did she create them out of nothing? And wouldn't the creation of alphas & their first generations of children be dependent on humans since it seems like all monsters feed on humans in some form?
      Well, Death explained it quite perfectly to me, imo. Universe, sun, planets(including Earth) and then Leviathans...and Leviathans makes sense because there was only Pangea at that time, so having huge sea beasts be the dominant species makes sense, but they tried to destroy the planet already as they were also chaotic beasts, so God created Purgatory and it makes me think that when God created fish, it was him making simplistic forms of Leviathans that are now humans today...now that could come up later on how "simple" humans could defeat the Leviathans later down the line. But, I'm getting ahead of myself...after God imprisoned the Leviathans, I think he created the fish and Eve at the same time, so while the fish were evolving, Eve was creating her own types of beasts, but once again, much more simplistic than the Leviathans.

      2. Is Sam seeing Lucifer in the embodiment of Nick because that's how he mostly remembers him? Because Lucifer in his true form would not look like Nick since he was only his vessel. Given that this all seems to be in Sam's head, I'm guessing that the representation of Lucifer as Nick wouldn't contradict with anything.
      It doesn't really make sense, but it's much more scarier than having an "evil" Sam again. Or perhaps inside Lucifer's cage, for some time, Lucifer was shown as Nick while Sam was trying to fight off Satan.

      3. I noticed how in this episode when Death was bound he had chains on his wrist, but back in Two Minutes to Midnight, no such chains were seen. Do you think they shouldn't have shown the chains just to be consistent, even though I thought they were cool.
      The chains were shown only once to show what "binds" him, and then another time for when Castiel broke them. They weren't really needed at all to be shown in "Two Minutes to Midnight", imo. Plus...I heard that a chain was meant to be around his neck...I mean, the chains were a great idea, but I thought the chain around the neck was a much better idea.

      4. In this episode, Dean said that as long as they're bound to Death, Castiel couldn't kill them. Does this mean that it would have been impossible for Michael to kill Lucifer had Lucifer not been sent back to his cage since at the time Death was bound to him? Or were the binding spells they used different so that Death was bound to Lucifer as a servant but was bound to the Winchesters & Bobby as a shield & weapon? Why didn't they just borrow his scythe & use it to kill Cas?
      I think Dean was just blowing smoke about Cas not being able to kill them just because they had Death "as their *****". And also...I seriously doubt Death would've just handed his scythe to Dean; he was very much wanting the weapon back in "Two Minutes to Midnight", so it seems to be his special toy and no one else's. And also, Death seemed to have been about to kill Cas with a touch on the head, and not with the scythe. That was interesting to me.

      5. I'm really looking forward to seeing Supernatural's depiction of hell as it comes to Earth in Sam's mind. I would love to see what Michael & Lucifer did to him in the cage and if Michael participated in the torture & changed since we last saw him.
      I still think, to this day, that Michael tried to protect Adam in the cage in reversal roles of how Lucifer tried to torture Sam. So, to say Michael did part of the torturing is something I don't believe, as that would have left Adam wide in the open, so to speak.

      6. Is Cas really dead? I don't think so, but I'm dying to find out. I also wonder about Jimmy's soul & if it's still in his body with Cas.
      The whole Jimmy debate is something I don't want to touch with a 20 ft. pole as it's always been rather confusing, but I don't think Castiel is dead. Mind you, the souls mentioned Cas was gone beforehand as well, but we saw and heard the real Castiel. I think the Leviathans tried to lock the angel inside the vessel somehow instead.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks to both of you guys for weighing in.

        I would think that Michael would protect Adam in the cage since he willingly said yes to him & Michael wouldn't betray him and I could even think that Lucifer given how he still loves Michael would respect his wishes & not harm Adam. But I do think that Michael would be pissed off enough at Sam to harm him. I don't know. But I have a good feeling we'll be learning more about the cage & may see the return of Adam this season or at least a glimpse of him in hell from Sam's experiences.

        I wonder if the Leviathans in Cas' body will try to open the gates of Purgatory to unleash other friends they may have. I've been really wanting to see what a monster's spirit could do & the Winchesters hunting a bunch of them down. Would the salt & burn method work on them or would something else be needed to put them to rest? I really hope that we get both forms of Leviathans (the Biblical & demology forms) this season & that they both break free from Cas & end up in other vessels. That would really be interesting. Just imagine, the demology Leviathan being a gatekeeper of hell going down to hell & threatening Crowley's rank as King of Hell, forcing him to work with the Winchesters again. That would definitely work. And how would the Meg demon align with that Leviathan? I'd bet the hell's gatekeeper Leviathan would not like the demons Lucifer created since they pretty much replaced him, so they would be the enemy of all demons. But there could be a faction of demons who would align with him as his army.

        I really wonder how Alastair got Death's scythe. Death must have lost it before being locked away after his previous appearance on Earth back during the Noah's Ark flooding. Alastair was probably around back then to swipe it given how powerful of a demon (the only other white eyed demon besides Lilith) he was & how old he must have been.

        I think the Leviathans did lock him in his body. But do they have access to his angelic powers? I doubt it. But then again, I don't think they need them since Cas mentioned how powerful they were, so they're probably much stronger than him. At least together they are, and we don't know how many are in him now.

        By the way---I have one more question. Do you think that Uriel was using his powers to protect Alastair back in On The Head Of A Pin? Castiel tried to kill him, which he should have been able to do since the angels are more powerful than the strongest demons, but he was unable to. I'm under the impression that he created some sort of shield around Alastair that prevented Cas from killing or exorcising him. Alastair was also stabbed by the demon killing knife & wasn't killed. He was one tough SOB. He also was the only demon who knew how to exorcise angels---perhaps another thing Uriel taught him.

        ----- Added 31 Minutes later -----

        Edit:

        Also, did we find out what Death wanted them to find out about souls? Was it that they could be used for harvesting power. Or is this still unanswered. I hope it's the latter because that would be sort of a letdown.
        Last edited by xrayvision; 09-23-2011, 10:41 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

        Comment


        • #5
          Castiel couldn't defeat Alastair in "Heaven and Hell" either. I just think Cas was just a weak angel.

          And...I don't think Death was searching for any info on the souls, he was just trying to guide Dean into finding out what Castiel was up to, imo.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by xrayvision
            1. Eve said that she is older than angels. The alpha vampire, who she created said he was the thing in the dark when humans built fire, which dates much further back than the age of angels & the archangels. Castiel in The Man Who Would Be King comments on how he witnessed the birth of humanity, which would have occurred before what the alpha vampire said. So I'm confused with who's older than who. Did Eve need humans as a base ingredient to create her alpha monsters or did she create them out of nothing? And wouldn't the creation of alphas & their first generations of children be dependent on humans since it seems like all monsters feed on humans in some form?
            As far as I'm concerned, it goes God and Death -> Leviathans -> Eve/Monsters -> Angels -> Humans.

            2. Is Sam seeing Lucifer in the embodiment of Nick because that's how he mostly remembers him? Because Lucifer in his true form would not look like Nick since he was only his vessel. Given that this all seems to be in Sam's head, I'm guessing that the representation of Lucifer as Nick wouldn't contradict with anything.
            This is pretty much done for the same reason why the angels still have human vessels in Heaven. It's done for the viewers, now if you wanna look at it story wise, yeah I guess you could go with that being how that's Sam really remembers him.

            6. Is Cas really dead? I don't think so, but I'm dying to find out. I also wonder about Jimmy's soul & if it's still in his body with Cas.
            I believe Jimmy's soul is still trapped in his body. I see no reason why it shouldn't be, seeing as how it was trapped in there while Castiel was possessing him (evident by his comment about being possessed by an angel felt like being strapped to a comet or whatever).

            Comment


            • #7
              I think Eve made the monsters after humans came around because if she didn't then what would they feed on? If monsters came before angels, then I don't think Cas could have killed Lenore the way he did. But then again, what the heck was Eve doing all those 1000s of years before humans were made? I wonder if she was initially good & was led to a path of evil by Lucifer, who got her to start screwing with humans by turning them into monsters. They could have created an Eve-Lucifer link last season that would have been nice & led into this season with Lucifer's return.

              Comment


              • #8
                Did the show ever say what Eve really is? In my opinion, I think Eve and Death don't really know what they're talking about and there are certain things they just don't remember correctly.


                Question I have is was death actually lying about killing God?
                Last edited by Kaleltheking; 09-25-2011, 06:29 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by xrayvision
                  I think Eve made the monsters after humans came around because if she didn't then what would they feed on? If monsters came before angels, then I don't think Cas could have killed Lenore the way he did. But then again, what the heck was Eve doing all those 1000s of years before humans were made? I wonder if she was initially good & was led to a path of evil by Lucifer, who got her to start screwing with humans by turning them into monsters. They could have created an Eve-Lucifer link last season that would have been nice & led into this season with Lucifer's return.
                  How is Eve, in any way, evil? Crowley is the one messing with her children and in her eyes, Sam, Dean, Castiel, Bobby, whoever was just lying and knew about Crowley being alive. I never really saw Eve being very evil, imo, since she was only wanting to protect her own children and having her own revenge because of it.

                  Originally posted by Kaleltheking
                  Did the show ever say what Eve really is? In my opinion, I think Eve and Death don't really know what they're talking about and there are certain things they just don't remember correctly.


                  Question I have is was death actually lying about killing God?
                  I'm not so sure I'm 100% confident that Death was lying about killing God. I mean, he WAS just about to kill Castiel. More important than Death, I wonder where War, Famine and Pestilence lie in the "hierarchy". Are they related to God and Death, seeing if they're related in some way, or are they soldiers of Death only? I mean, Death could very well be the "leader" of the Horsemen since the other three were just there on Earth and a ritual had to happen for Death to show up. Perhaps while God created everything else, Death created soldiers of his to even out the levels of "evil" since good and evil had to exist way before Lucifer was created since there's always a balance.

                  And Eve...I suspect her to have been the mother of all monsters as always presumed, but I have been thinking that the Leviathans taught her how to stop an angel's powers. I only wish we get some more insight on her origins from a Leviathan's standpoint.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I mean what would Eve be classified as? This is just me, but for a while I thought Death was lying and when he asked Dean when did he say he could that just nailed it for me, but then again I may be wrong.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Anno_Domini
                      I mean, Death could very well be the "leader" of the Horsemen since the other three were just there on Earth and a ritual had to happen for Death to show up.
                      Who's to say that the other Horsemen weren't summoned via ritual spell? Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean they weren't summoned as well. Only reason we saw Death get brough to Earth was because Sam and Dean were hunting the Devil down as opposed to getting word of Horsemen attacks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Anno_Domini
                        How is Eve, in any way, evil? Crowley is the one messing with her children and in her eyes, Sam, Dean, Castiel, Bobby, whoever was just lying and knew about Crowley being alive. I never really saw Eve being very evil, imo, since she was only wanting to protect her own children and having her own revenge because of it.
                        The same way monsters are evil. She created them & knew that they would have to feed on God's creations. I would say that she was put into Purgatory for the same reason that the Leviathans were, though it seems the Leviathans are a lot more dangerous. Last season I thought that she got into Purgatory by being killed, but now I think she was trapped there alive for the same reasons the Leviathans were. I think just like the alive angels' realm is Heaven & the alive demons' realm is hell, Eve's & the Leviathans' realm is Purgatory & they were locked there alive. Probably because they were too powerful to be contained by hell, where demons who are much weaker than them can easily get out (I'm not counting the cage in hell, which is probably the most secure prison there is).

                        If Eve was good, I don't think her creations would need to feed on God's creations. The way I look at it, monsters, as Dean has referred to them several times in the past, are evil SOBs and Eve, their creator is just another. Sure there are exceptions like Lenore, but even she was forced to feed on humans.

                        By the way, I wonder what the being possessing Dr. Eleanor Visyak was. I don't think it was ever revealed. Was she possessed by a being opposed to Cthulu & the Leviathans? She must have known about them given how she wanted to keep them out? Or was she possessed by a soul of a dead monster given how Castiel was able to kill her easily as opposed to a beast like Cthulu which would probably be as powerful as a Leviathan (if not one of/the leader of the Leviathans). I really want an episode where the Winchesters time travel back to Lovecraft's time & meet him to find out what Eleanor was possessed by & more about the private party at Lovecraft's house & Cthulu itself.
                        Last edited by xrayvision; 09-25-2011, 08:44 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kaleltheking
                          I mean what would Eve be classified as?
                          Purgatorian.

                          I think Purgatory has "citizens" that never walked on Earth from the beginning, such as Dr. Visyak from last season.

                          Originally posted by Kar.
                          Who's to say that the other Horsemen weren't summoned via ritual spell? Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean they weren't summoned as well. Only reason we saw Death get brough to Earth was because Sam and Dean were hunting the Devil down as opposed to getting word of Horsemen attacks.
                          It's just an assumption to me, mostly because we never saw rituals, because, if there was, you'd think Bobby would get a sniff of it, or heard something from other hunters.

                          Originally posted by xrayvision
                          The same way monsters are evil. She created them & knew that they would have to feed on God's creations. I would say that she was put into Purgatory for the same reason that the Leviathans were, though it seems the Leviathans are a lot more dangerous. Last season I thought that she got into Purgatory by being killed, but now I think she was trapped there alive for the same reasons the Leviathans were. I think just like the alive angels' realm is Heaven & the alive demons' realm is hell, Eve's & the Leviathans' realm is Purgatory & they were locked there alive. Probably because they were too powerful to be contained by hell, where demons who are much weaker than them can easily get out (I'm not counting the cage in hell, which is probably the most secure prison there is).

                          If Eve was good, I don't think her creations would need to feed on God's creations. The way I look at it, monsters, as Dean has referred to them several times in the past, are evil SOBs and Eve, their creator is just another. Sure there are exceptions like Lenore, but even she was forced to feed on humans.

                          By the way, I wonder what the being possessing Dr. Eleanor Visyak was. I don't think it was ever revealed. Was she possessed by a being opposed to Cthulu & the Leviathans? She must have known about them given how she wanted to keep them out? Or was she possessed by a soul of a dead monster given how Castiel was able to kill her easily as opposed to a beast like Cthulu which would probably be as powerful as a Leviathan (if not one of/the leader of the Leviathans). I really want an episode where the Winchesters time travel back to Lovecraft's time & meet him to find out what Eleanor was possessed by & more about the private party at Lovecraft's house & Cthulu itself.
                          I don't know...to me, Eve should never be viewed as something evil. She WAS created by God to create these monsters for some kind of reason and imo, I wouldn't put her as something as evil as, say...Lucifer, or Azazel. Eve is just balancing things out, which was, said in "Mommy Dearest", the compromise she had with God and Man from the beginning.

                          Wouldn't it be crazy as heck if Dr. Visyak was Cthulhu? Haha. But, as I said, the doctor was probably just a citizen in Purgatory that was never a monster that walked on Earth. Perhaps the Leviathans created children of sorts that resides in Purgatory.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Anno_Domini
                            I don't know...to me, Eve should never be viewed as something evil. She WAS created by God to create these monsters for some kind of reason and imo, I wouldn't put her as something as evil as, say...Lucifer, or Azazel. Eve is just balancing things out, which was, said in "Mommy Dearest", the compromise she had with God and Man from the beginning.
                            I think Eve must have done something to have been trapped in Purgatory just like the Leviathans did. I don't think God would have had her locked away if she was just balancing things out. But then again, Death was locked away somewhere sometime during the Old Testament times from what Bobby said in Abandon All Hope:

                            "They keep this guy chained in a box 600 feet under. Last time they hauled him up, Noah was building a boat".

                            I know he wasn't in Purgatory, but Death was definitely locked up somewhere, probably deep within Earth and we know how he balances things out in the life-death equilibrium. Perhaps she was locked away once she made enough monsters so that the balance wouldn't favor the monsters.

                            Wouldn't it be crazy as heck if Dr. Visyak was Cthulhu? Haha. But, as I said, the doctor was probably just a citizen in Purgatory that was never a monster that walked on Earth. Perhaps the Leviathans created children of sorts that resides in Purgatory.
                            I don't think she would have died that easily if she was Cthulu unless she was really evil & sacrificed herself, but if that was the case, she could have released Eve & the Leviathans herself. Perhaps Eve created the being possessing Dr. Visyak while in Purgatory and she saw how bad the Leviathans were & wanted to keep them in Purgatory. Maybe she was a dragon since she had that sword. I don't know.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You know, it's too bad I have a feeling that we'll never know the answers to any of this.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X
                              😀
                              🥰
                              🤢
                              😎
                              😡
                              👍
                              👎