^ LEX did that to himself he didnt want to be "saved" in all honesty. Lionel made the effort to be redeemable while lex was snarky about it, pretending to want it while doing other stuff behind clark and everyone's back. His way was the right way.
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Lex did not kill Tess! It was Clone!Lex they are not the same thing. There is only one Lex Luthor and he died in season 8. A clone killed her. Yes the clone had Lex's memories but as we see with the other clones, and Alexander that they become their own beings, they are not an extension of Lex he does not just live on through them. They have his memories but they are not him.Comment
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"Lex did not kill Tess! It was Clone!Lex they are not the same thing. There is only one Lex Luthor and he died in season 8. A clone killed her. Yes the clone had Lex's memories but as we see with the other clones, and Alexander that they become their own beings, they are not an extension of Lex he does not just live on through them. They have his memories but they are not him."
Hey been a while since anyone's posted in this thread, but wanted to respond to this: actually it was the real Lex Luthor in "Finale". It was just that he was resurrected using pieces of his clones. That's why his label before he is brought back is "Lex Luthor: 0". Remember how all the other clones had numbers, like "Lex Luthor: 1", "Lex Luthor: 2", etc? This one was zero, suggesting that it was in fact the original Lex Luthor. He may have had cloned body parts to heal his injuries but his body as a whole was still the same.
Hope that shed some light on it, as I know there's been a lot of confusion from fans about this!Comment
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I think the original Lex Luthor wouldn't have any number. All numbers refer to clones. When you make copies of something you usually don't give the original a number, only the copies. I think the zero stands for a composite clone that was intended to be composite from the beginning.
However, the Lex Luthor in the SVS11 could still be the original Lex if he had his soul. Judging from what I read in season 11 it looks like it is the pre-Arctic Lex again, not at all like the Lex's season eight and ten, except for that odd dislike of Superman or the house of El, that might be a remnant of the program the clones recieved. Anyway, Smallville lore allows for transference of a soul from one body to the next so it is possible that we have our original Lex back.Comment
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But when you number things you usually don't start with zero. You start with 1. That's why I think Lex: Zero refers to the original Lex. Otherwise what would be the point of calling him that? (Plus the cinematic language that was used with the epic zoom-in of the camera and intense music, etc.)
Good point about soul transference and how it is definitely possible in "Smallville"!Comment
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But when you number things you usually don't start with zero. You start with 1. That's why I think Lex: Zero refers to the original Lex. Otherwise what would be the point of calling him that? (Plus the cinematic language that was used with the epic zoom-in of the camera and intense music, etc.)
Good point about soul transference and how it is definitely possible in "Smallville"!
I do hope it is really Tess' soul that is now in Lex's body, too. Would make for an interesting dynamic, right? And a way, we, the audience, can learn how Lex thinks and his motives. For example, we already learned that the present Lex really does not trust Superman, but he isn't all sure Superman will destroy humankind, either. Thus, it is plausible to assume that much of what Lex does in regard to Superman is testing him, finding out what Superman's true goals are. And we know that the present Lex is not interested in being Superman's enemy or something like that (as the Lex's in season eight and ten), but he really wants to save humankind from alien attacks, again.Comment
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murdering people is pretty much evil of Lex that goes without saying, but for me, I would have to go with the fake pregnancy that Lex created by the use of synthetic hormones causing Lana to believe that she's pregnant when she never was to begin with.Last edited by laurarawlins; 12-06-2012, 06:11 PM.Comment
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Yes. That wasn't nice. However, he didn't actually harm her by it, neither physically, nor emotionally (she is not the first woman to loose her baby early in the pregnancy, nor the last - it is not exactly a rare occurrance and being pregnant one has to anticipate that possibility). And his motive was to enhance her decision to marry him, too, nothing bad in that. However, what the Kents did in Asylum, allowing an innocent friend to be drugged, imprisoned, and tortured for over a month, that really was evil - and for no reason but their envy, too. Lex never had given them a reason to harm him like that, on the contrary, he always had tried to help them. No wonder Clark always had a bad conscience after that. I never understood how either Martha or Jonathan were able to even look Lex in the eye again. I guess, they simply don't have any conscience at all. They are truely evil - not Lex.Comment
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Yes. That wasn't nice. However, he didn't actually harm her by it, neither physically, nor emotionally (she is not the first woman to loose her baby early in the pregnancy, nor the last - it is not exactly a rare occurrance and being pregnant one has to anticipate that possibility).
And his motive was to enhance her decision to marry him, too, nothing bad in that.
However, what the Kents did in Asylum, allowing an innocent friend to be drugged, imprisoned, and tortured for over a month, that really was evil - and for no reason but their envy, too. Lex never had given them a reason to harm him like that, on the contrary, he always had tried to help them. No wonder Clark always had a bad conscience after that. I never understood how either Martha or Jonathan were able to even look Lex in the eye again. I guess, they simply don't have any conscience at all. They are truely evil - not Lex.Comment
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There are also two other reasons why Lex did what he did, btw. First, Lana and Lex were playing the Luthor game. Lana entered it knowingly and willingly and already told Lex weeks before he started to give hormones to her that she played this Game on his level. But she wasn't! She should not have been able to be drugged or poisoned. Lionel taught this lesson to Lex way more painful. The other reason is that Lex had had enough warnings that he himself might turn against humankind one day. That is why he trained Lana to inherit Luthorcorp. Even after she returned to Clark he allowed her to spy on him and find out his secret activities so that she would be able to take over if he changed.
both by the loss of her baby (and no, it doesn't matter that there never was a baby, because she believed there was and the pain of loss she felt was real) and by the betrayal she felt when she found out that Lex had drugged her and lied to her about the whole thing.
It doesn't matter that Lana wasn't the first or last woman to lose her baby early in a pregnancy. The point is that Lex violated her, physically and emotionally, by drugging her and lying about it the entire time. Anyone who can do that is evil, plain and simple.
There's nothing bad about manipulating someone, deliberately deceiving them, in order to force them to do something that they may not have wanted to do in the first place?
Again, are you kidding me?!
If Lana didn't want to marry Lex,
But we saw in season seven that Lana was not able to let go of Lex. Nor really in love with Clark (the Bizarro affair for example showed this pretty clearly).
then he should've let her go, and he certainly didn't have the right to fake a pregnancy in order to make her marry him.
Manipulating and lying to someone in order to get them to do what you want isn't love.
Dude, seriously? The Kents were envious of Lex, and that's why they didn't allow Clark to rescue Lex from the asylum? That couldn't be further from the truth. The Kents never envied the Luthors, if anything, they feared and/or pitied them. The reason the Kents didn't allow Clark to rescue Lex is because they were afraid that Lex would expose Clark's secret, or that Clark would expose his secret himself by rescuing Lex. If you ask me, those were legitimate fears.
And while it wasn't cool to knowingly sit by and do nothing when Clark could've saved Lex, the Kents' first priority was to protect Clark at all costs, and if that meant allowing Lex to suffer in the asylum, then so be it.
However, just because the Kents didn't try to save Lex, doesn't mean they weren't concerned for his well-being. Sometimes, hard choices have to be made, and people have to be sacrificed for the greater good,
and if Lex being sacrificed meant that Clark could remain safe and eventually fulfill his destiny, then it was the right move.
Guess that is why I like Clark so much. He is able to question himself and his decisions and to overcome the evil his parents taught him.Last edited by Freawaru; 12-12-2012, 05:23 AM.Comment
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Nothing compared to the scarring Jonathan and Martha (and also Clark) gave to Lex. If Clark had simply saved Lex after he found out that he truely was drugged Lex could have been spared a lot of physical and emotional pain. But he didn't. And both Jonathan and Martha even told him not to after he got second thoughts on the matter.
There are also two other reasons why Lex did what he did, btw. First, Lana and Lex were playing the Luthor game. Lana entered it knowingly and willingly and already told Lex weeks before he started to give hormones to her that she played this Game on his level. But she wasn't! She should not have been able to be drugged or poisoned. Lionel taught this lesson to Lex way more painful.
The other reason is that Lex had had enough warnings that he himself might turn against humankind one day. That is why he trained Lana to inherit Luthorcorp. Even after she returned to Clark he allowed her to spy on him and find out his secret activities so that she would be able to take over if he changed.
As Lex told Clark - and Clark was not able to disagree - Lana didn't learn about betrayal from Lex. I think Lex would have treated Lana differently if she had not been betrayed by Clark many times before.
If that is evil - what are the Kents? Ultimate evil?
Such as all the deceiving Clark does to his friends? All the lies the Kents told Clark's friends to force them to do what they wanted and even bringing them into mortal danger by it?
But she wanted to - until Clark interfered again. Lana always wanted the most powerfull male around and she thought that was Clark. We saw it several times before: in Nicodemus for example. The moment Lana has no inhibitions she wants Clark, and if she cannot get him she wants Lex. The problem with Lex was that Lana was also scared of Lex - because of all the lies about him the Kents and others had told her. That was why she turned to Clark the moment he became avaiable again.
But we saw in season seven that Lana was not able to let go of Lex. Nor really in love with Clark (the Bizarro affair for example showed this pretty clearly).
I agree to you in general, but not in this case.
Like Jonathan and Martha - even lying to each other about the important things (such as where the octagonal key is)?
Had Lex ever given them reason for that fear? Up until that point Clark didn't even know that Lex would be Sageeth. Lex was Clark's best friend - like a brother, even. He always helped the Kents, gave them back the farm when they needed it. He was always there if they needed help. How many times did Clark go to Lex so that he would fix something. And whenever Lex felt to be in real danger he went to Clark. They were true friends. Lex also was already good at keeping secrets, much better than Pete or Chloe or Lana. No, the Kents based their decision on nothing but predudice, based on jealousy because they didn't have money (many times Jonathan mentioned his bad conscience that he couldn't give Martha what he thought she deserved, moneywise). Of course, the fact that Martha's rich and powerfull (and as such Luthorlike) father didn't accept Jonathan didn't make it easier for Jonathan. Still, he should not have let his frustration and anger for Martha's father influence his feelings for Lex. They had nothing in common but money. It is not money that makes a person, but inner values. Jonathan was never able to see this.
Also, Jonathan was not jealous of people with money. Sure, he would've liked to have been able to get his wife certain things and not have to worry about how they were gonna pay their bills all the time, but he wasn't envious or jealous of those with money. he certainly didn't like those with money, but that's because he'd experienced, first-hand, that people with money didn't treat those without money very well. For instance, Martha's father didn't like Jonathan, because he didn't think Jonathan was good enough for Martha. he thought Martha would be wasting her life and her potential by marrying a farmer. And since Martha's father didn't like Jonathan, was prejudiced against him first, Jonathan didn't like Martha's father. similarly, Jonathan didn't like the Luthors, Lionel in particular, because Lionel thought he could buy anything and anyone as long as the price was right and he got what he wanted. That kind of thinking goes against everything Jonathan believes, so it's no wonder that Jonathan didn't like the Luthors, Lex included.
I think to turn your back on your best friend like that, a friend like a brother who had been always there for you, is evil. They didn't even know that Lex would harm Clark, right? In fact, everything that had happened before showed that Lex would have protected Clark at all costs. Lex was innocent and the Kents knew that and still allowed him to go to something worse than prison. The Kents are simply evil and taught Clark their evil ways.
This attitude is called "the ends justify this means".
I agree with you when it comes to Martha potting to kill Lex to save the world from Zod. But there was no danger in letting Lex know in Asylum - he had already suspected for a long time anyway and would have known for sure if his friendship with Clark would not have prevented him from really spying on him. Remember Onyx? The moment Lex didn't have this softer feelings of friendship and loyality to Clark any more he knew that Clark was an alien with superpowers and that he didn't like meteor rock. The Kents had no reason to mistrust Lex at the time of Asylum. Still, they were happy enough to know him tortured forever. These are very dark feelings that influence the Kents. They don't act out of love or compassion, but have hidden selfish and evil agendas. Unfortionately, they believe themselves to be good and thus never question their decisions or their haveing agendas.
Guess that is why I like Clark so much. He is able to question himself and his decisions and to overcome the evil his parents taught him.Comment
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Also, it was never as simple as Clark saving Lex. You have to realize that Lionel was responsible for Lex being drugged in the first place, and if Clark intervened, Lionel may have discovered Clark's secret, and then Clark, the Kents and Lex would've been in terrible danger.
On the up-side I think Clark learned from this experience and his terrible bad conscience. After Asylum he never really listened to his parents any more and went his own way.
I don't doubt that Lionel would've killed the Kents and Lex, if necessary, in order to learn about Clark and possibly even control him. That's too great a risk, which is why the Kents told Clark to stay away and not to save Lex.
The Kents pretended (and even believed) they were good and compassionate and helpfull, but there were episodes that showed that they were in fact predjudiced and selfish. Martha didn't take in little Kal El because she was so compassionate, but because a child was her own desire and Kal El was so cute. That is hormones, instinct, not compassion. In Subterranean Clark has to teach her compassion. Jonathan always considered himself to be soo helpful to others but in Nicodemus, when his inhibitions were reduced, we see that in fact he always expected something in return. No different from Lionel, except that Lionel was truthfull about it while Jonathan lied all the time.
Ah, but Lex shouldn't have been playing games with Lana in the first place.
You don't do that to someone you love, especially not to someone you want to spend your life with. Lionel was sick and twisted, which explains why he taught Lex that everything was a life and death struggle, that you can't trust anyone, not even family.
That's no way to live.
Besides, I don't believe Lana was in on this 'Game', not really. I think she believed Lex was testing her loyalty, but I highly doubt she thought he'd mess with her heart and mind by drugging her and making her think she was pregnant.
Also, if they were playing a game, what was the purpose of the faked pregnancy?
Personally, I think Lex just wanted to make sure Lana didn't leave him, and he knew that if she knew the real him, then she'd eventually leave him, just as everyone else he'd cared about had done.
I disagree. Lex never saw himself as evil. He always believed he was the hero, the one person who was smart and driven enough to take on and defeat any threat.
He wanted to be in control of everything, people included, because he believed he knew best.
You see, the greatest villains never try to be evil. They believe they're doing good, doing what's best for mankind, but in actuality, they're committing terrible acts of evil.
Lex, in his attempt to protect humanity from the meteor infected and from an alien invasion, rounded up and experimented on innocent people, even killed some of those people, and all in the name of the greater good.
This stands in contast to the Kents selling their kryptonite contaminated products as healthy, even after they knew that it would make people who eat it insane.
Lex didn't want to prepare Lana to take over in case he turned evil, because he never believed he would.
Instead, I think he wanted to prepare her in case he was killed by one of the 'villains' he was fighting against.
Again, I disagree. Lex would've treated Lana the same no matter what. By this point, Lex was beyond redemption, and his actions were all centered around himself, what he needed and wanted. Yes, he wanted to be the savior of the world, but not because he wanted the world made safe from evil. He wanted to be the one to do the saving, to get the credit, to be recognized for his genius.
Sure, Clark may have taught Lana about betrayal, but Lex gave her a Doctorate in betrayal. I mean, just look at the episode 'Lexmas'. Lex saw the life he could have if he'd just give up his ambitions toward power and controlling everything and everyone. Instead of learning the lesson that love is something gentle that can't be forced or controlled, Lex decided that if he truly wanted the life he saw, he'd have to take it by force. To me, that was the signal that Lex was completely lost to the darkness, that he wasn't good or capable of being good.
Lexmas showed that Lex was still the same person he had been in Jitters. Willing to put his own desires and happyness and even life at stake to save those he cares for. It was a heroic decision, one only a truely good person would be able to make.
I'm not sure what your definition of evil is, but it's definitely not the same as mine. The Kents did questionable things in order to protect Clark and ultimately protect the future of humanity and the world. Lex did questionable things for his own benefit, whether he believed he was doing them for the greater good is irrelevant.
What were they supposed to do? They couldn't just tell people the truth, that Clark is an alien with super powers. If they'd told people that, even Clark's friends, they'd have put them in more danger than by lying to them.
Again, I disagree. Lana was having doubts about marrying Lex, which is why Lex resorted to faking the pregnacy.
And I think Lana was scared of Lex because she could sense that he wasn't good at heart.
I think she wanted to believe in the good that he could do, and that she believed she could help keep him from going down the path to evil, but deep down, she knew Lex wasn't as good as he would have people believe.
Actually, Lana wanted to hurt Lex, make him suffer for all the horrible things he'd done to her. She wasn't in love with him, at all.
In fact, I think, had Clark not stopped her, she may have killed Lex.
I'm not sure if she was really in love with Clark or just in love with her idea of who Clark was. Personally, I think she was in love with the idea of Clark, which would explain why she had the affair with Bizarro.
Dude, manipulating someone for any reason is wrong,
Yes, the Kents did something wrong, but it was in an effort to protect each other and Clark.
Lex did something wrong because he wanted Lana and wasn't certain she'd choose him of her own free will, so he made sure there was no choice.
I think you're way off base and confusing seperate issues. First, the Kents were scared of Lex because he's a Luthor,
and they knew full well what Lionel was capable of, and since Lex was raised by Lionel, there was a good chance Lex would be like his father.
Even if Lex didn't give them reason to fear him, the Kents knew that Lex and Lionel were always at odds, constantly fighting,
and if Lex knew Clark's secret, Lionel would stop at nothing to learn what Lex knew, which would've been bad for everyone.
So, instead of taking an unnecessary risk, the Kents chose the safer path and simply lied in order to protect everyone.
Also, Jonathan was not jealous of people with money. Sure, he would've liked to have been able to get his wife certain things and not have to worry about how they were gonna pay their bills all the time, but he wasn't envious or jealous of those with money.
he certainly didn't like those with money, but that's because he'd experienced, first-hand, that people with money didn't treat those without money very well. For instance, Martha's father didn't like Jonathan, because he didn't think Jonathan was good enough for Martha. he thought Martha would be wasting her life and her potential by marrying a farmer. And since Martha's father didn't like Jonathan, was prejudiced against him first, Jonathan didn't like Martha's father.
The correct reaction would have been to show Martha's father that this way of life would make his daughter happy. Instead, Jonathan was hurt and grumbled. He would not have felt hurt if he had not thought that Martha's father was right in the first place. Jonathan's reaction shows that he agreed with Martha's father: being a farmer is not as good as being a lawyer - or senator.
similarly, Jonathan didn't like the Luthors, Lionel in particular,
because Lionel thought he could buy anything and anyone as long as the price was right and he got what he wanted.
That kind of thinking goes against everything Jonathan believes, so it's no wonder that Jonathan didn't like the Luthors, Lex included.
Couldn't disagree more. Just because Lex might not have been a threat to Clark, doesn't mean Lionel wasn't. I mean, Lionel always knew what Lex was up to, and if Lex knew about Clark, Lionel would've done anything and everything to learn what Lex knew, including kill and torture.
I have little doubt, had Lionel not been in the picture, that Clark or the Kents probably would've told Lex about Clark's secret, but with Lionel looming in the background, they simply couldn't take the chance of him finding out, which he most certainly would have.
Just because you do certain questionable things in order to protect the ones you love doesn't mean you're evil.
The Kents were simply trying to protect Clark, and also Lex, by lying and not allowing Clark to intervene.
Totally disagree. Lex was under constant surveilance in Asylum, so there was great danger in telling Lex Clark's secret.
Look, Lex knew that Lionel was obsessed with Clark. He could have made a deal with Lionel any time: Clark's secret against his own freedom. But he didn't and endured the torture in Belle Reve. If this does not show that somebody is willing to keep a secret no matter what I really don't know what is.
As I've stated, Lionel wanted to know the truth about Clark, and if Lex knew, Lionel would've done anything he had to in order to extract the information.
Also, I don't believe for a second that the Kents were happy about Lex being tortured.
You seem to have a bias against the Kents which is coloring your perception of the events.
Just because they didnt' let Clark help Lex doesn't mean they enjoyed the prospect of Lex being tortured.
It is like they find somebody they don't like on the streets hit by a car and not only they don't alarm the police but even prevent somebody who wants to help from doing so. It is an evil act.
Look, Clark could have broken Lex out of Belle Reve and hid him in Mexico or whereever. And then they could have made a plan how to solve the situation. There was no danger at all involved. Though Lionel might have suspected he could not have done anything or prooven anything. It would have been a safe thing - except for the Kents enjoying that Lex was finally not close to Clark any more.
Also, I think the Kents constantly questioned their choices, but they accepted their decisions and lived with the consequences because they believed they had no other choice.
Clark's parents didn't teach him evil.
They did the best they could, and no one is perfect.
I seriously think you're being too hard on the Kents and not hard enough on Lex.
At the end of the day, Lex is supposed to be evil; it's his destiny, and the Kents are supposed to be good, which is why Jor-El sent Clark to them.Last edited by Freawaru; 12-31-2012, 03:11 AM.Comment
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Quite a few times he showed that he did. Especially in the early years. But after Clark let Lex get his brain fried, Clark left him to the wolves. Why wouldn't he do stuff behind everyone's back? Clark's way and word are not law. Lex doesn't have to consult with him or them about anything. Lionel did just as bad (if you can call it that), if not worse, and didn't want nor care about redemption, the only reason he started to change in the first place was because of being Jor-El's vessel.Comment
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Gotta disagree with that. Lionel had a lot of factors going for him that Lex doesn't. He was possessed by Jor-El, had his crush on Martha, realised how badly he'd screwed up with Lex, and saw Clark as a surrogate son. All those factors contributed to making his turn-around real. Lex has none of that going for him, and on top of that, some of his behaviour suggests that he's borderline insane. I don't think he's even close to salvageable.
And at least Lex can be excused in that his behavior didn't start until after the Zod incident.... which leads me to the theory that a little bit of Zod was left behind in him... and that's why he started acting all evil. I don't think that the "good lex" we saw were an false front at all... far from it. not to mention all the traumatic injuries he had, the pstd from the island.. not to mention the damn electroshock that Lionel did on him.
plus, when people keep on dumping on you for no good reason at all, and constantly on a regular basis, you have no more obligation to ever be nice to them at all. Especially if you're trying to save the Earth from an Alien invasion.... and if people try to stop that just because they don't agree with your methods, wouldn't you start to see them as the enemy?Comment
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The thing is... you forget that Jor-El was just as evil as Lionel Luthor was... in fact Jor-El the AI was pretty much downright psychotic and had killed people in the past. And you think being possessed by something like that would magically make him all better and reformed? Nope! I have never brought into that and I never will. If anything that should had only made Lionel Luthor twice as evil and even more scheming than ever.
And at least Lex can be excused in that his behavior didn't start until after the Zod incident.... which leads me to the theory that a little bit of Zod was left behind in him... and that's why he started acting all evil. I don't think that the "good lex" we saw were an false front at all... far from it. not to mention all the traumatic injuries he had, the pstd from the island.. not to mention the damn electroshock that Lionel did on him.
plus, when people keep on dumping on you for no good reason at all, and constantly on a regular basis, you have no more obligation to ever be nice to them at all. Especially if you're trying to save the Earth from an Alien invasion.... and if people try to stop that just because they don't agree with your methods, wouldn't you start to see them as the enemy?Comment
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