How to make a good Superman Game

[Khal El Jr]

I simply think that's not the case. On a more powerful system than the PS2, I think Shadow of Apokolips could've been much better and a lot more fun. Superman Returns has a lot of the same ideas you're bringing up: XP, powers, freeroam, side missions, etc. but it had to meet the film's release date. Can you name the last truly great video game of any genre that was released at the same time as the movie? They never have enough development time..

Superman Returns was released on PS3/360 & the original Xbox. Everything was exactly the same interms of powers, effects, physics & visuals. Only difference was the 3 exclusive islands.

Shadow of Apokolips & Man of steel were both last gen games. Xbox is said to have similar capabilities as the PS2 & Gamecube.

Xbox handled Superman returns. Xbox also produced the man of steel which paled in comparision. So once again I believe you put to much weight behind console power & not enough behind proper development.

Again, you think I'm criticisizing the game because it doesn't let me fly through buildings or permanently freeze people. I'm not. I'm giving examples of how I feel that the game fell short of depicting how amazing his powers are. I don't think I'm nitpicking any more than you are by listing the individual types of side missions Superman should be able to go on that weren't in SR. If anything, I'm doing the same thing by suggesting that the next game simply make you more powerful - because that would help make you feel like Superman.

Short of saying "Superman Returns was flawed because of the gameplay, not his powers. But in the definitive Superman game, I'd like to be more powerful," I'm not sure how I can make that more clear.

I dont think Side missions is nitpicking. They add replay value & depth, you cant say the same about keeping pedestrians frozen longer or flying through buildings. I mean seriously its non comparable which means more to a Superman game. Mainly what everyone complained about was the lack of mission variety not freezing people or destruction.

I read you pretty clear, as i stated many times. You want to feel the power, i get that I just dont understand it. Nor do I believe it would benefit the a game in anyway.

That type of thinking is, IMO, what's holding back a great Superman game. That's why I don't think the problem with Superman games to date has been a lack of creativity or vision when it comes to gameplay - it's the stories that have been lacking (in addition to the technical limitations and short development times).

A great story with horrid gameplay is a game not worth playing. Great gameplay with no story is a game thats playable. Look at Halo or classics like Super Mario, Nothing compelling about the Generic stories. Its all about how well the gameplay is.

I'm not even sure a sandbox-style game is right for Superman. Maybe it is, but there were a ton of people insisting a Batman game should be just like Spider-Man 2 & Grand Theft Auto and let you drive around the Batmobile, stopping random crimes. Then Rocksteady bust out a Metroid-style game in the form of Arkham Asylum and it rocked. Why not some of that out-of-the-box thinking for a Superman game? Why not one that's more like the first part of SR, with Superman in space? Send him to other dimensions. Some of the best Superman stories have not taken place in Metropolis.

Isnt Batman Arkahm city open world? Anyway Superman could made either way imo. However I prefer sandbox games like Spiderman where you have freeroam. That opens up side missions.

[j03superbat]

Superman Returns was released on PS3/360 & the original Xbox. Everything was exactly the same interms of powers, effects, physics & visuals. Only difference was the 3 exclusive islands.

Shadow of Apokolips & Man of steel were both last gen games. Xbox is said to have similar capabilities as the PS2 & Gamecube.

Xbox handled Superman returns. Xbox also produced the man of steel which paled in comparision. So once again I believe you put to much weight behind console power & not enough behind proper development.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up the past. They don't make games for the original Xbox anymore, and I never said a good Superman game couldn't be made on current-generation systems. What I did say was:

"Superman is too powerful for a video game is because of the technical limitations of current-generation gaming systems and computers."

Now, I could be wrong, but you would have to make a fully-destructible city that can not only be demolished by you flying through it, but also being burnt down by Superman, or being frozen and then shattered. He can form tornadoes, he can smash every window in every building for blocks just by clapping, and he can see every detail in every detail on every floor of a building. Those are simply thigns the character can do - when confined to the city. He can also fly around the world in a matter of seconds. He can fly into space on a whim. He can leave craters on the moon that don't disappear when you turn around. A console can't handle that.

BUT I never said that a good game can't be made because of those technical limitations. Even if Superman can't do those things, a good game can still be made, but I'll never truly feel like I am Superman.

In essence, I think you got our debate confused. I think they can make a great game starring Superman, but I don't think they can make a game that literally gives you every single one of Superman's powers. And you don't see why anyone would want to be as strong as Superman, but would like to play a game where you help cats out of trees and foil bank robberies.

I dont think Side missions is nitpicking. They add replay value & depth, you cant say the same about keeping pedestrians frozen longer or flying through buildings. I mean seriously its non comparable which means more to a Superman game. Mainly what everyone complained about was the lack of mission variety not freezing people or destruction.

And I get that.

Once again, I'm not nitpicking about the pedestrians being frozen or flying through buildings - that implies that I didn't like SR because of those specific things. I was giving examples of how I thought those things could've been more realistic, just as you gave examples of different side missions he could go on.

You want to feel the power, i get that I just dont understand it. Nor do I believe it would benefit the a game in anyway.

I want to feel the power because I want to feel like I'm Superman. That's why I'm playing the game in the first place. It would benefit the game because I'd feel more like Superman, making the game feel more immersive.

I mean, it's literally akin to playing a Spider-Man game where he's only as strong as a normal human being and can web swing, but is really slow at it. Even with those limitations, I'm sure you could make a fine game - but I'd feel like I'm missing out on the true potential of the character.

A great story with horrid gameplay is a game not worth playing. Great gameplay with no story is a game thats playable. Look at Halo or classics like Super Mario, Nothing compelling about the Generic stories. Its all about how well the gameplay is.

IMHO, side missions are not great gameplay. Even if a Superman game had several different side missions, if the main missions aren't any fun or are underdeveloped, it's just not going to be a memorable game.

And I'm almost insulted that you brought that up, because I never said a game with horrible gameplay but a great story is acceptable. All I said is that these games have had a lack of good stories.

Isnt Batman Arkahm city open world?

My understanding is that there's still loading times and certain sections of the city are closed off until you reach certain points in the game.

[Khal El Jr]

I don't understand why you keep bringing up the past. They don't make games for the original Xbox anymore, and I never said a good Superman game couldn't be made on current-generation systems. What I did say was:

"Superman is too powerful for a video game is because of the technical limitations of current-generation gaming systems and computers."

Now, I could be wrong, but you would have to make a fully-destructible city that can not only be demolished by you flying through it, but also being burnt down by Superman, or being frozen and then shattered. He can form tornadoes, he can smash every window in every building for blocks just by clapping, and he can see every detail in every detail on every floor of a building. Those are simply thigns the character can do - when confined to the city. He can also fly around the world in a matter of seconds. He can fly into space on a whim. He can leave craters on the moon that don't disappear when you turn around. A console can't handle that.

BUT I never said that a good game can't be made because of those technical limitations. Even if Superman can't do those things, a good game can still be made, but I'll never truly feel like I am Superman.

In essence, I think you got our debate confused. I think they can make a great game starring Superman, but I don't think they can make a game that literally gives you every single one of Superman's powers. And you don't see why anyone would want to be as strong as Superman, but would like to play a game where you help cats out of trees and foil bank robberies.

The reason I brung up the past is because you stated ''Superman Returns was compared to Shadow of Apokolips, I think it's pretty clear that we're just now getting consoles that may be able to handle a Superman game.''

Yet you bring up power limitations even though Superman Returns was on Original Xbox/PS2 as well as 360/PS3. PS2 produced Shadow of Apokolips & Xbox had Man of Steel, did you not notice the difference bewteen those & Returns from a technical standpoint? Which leads to developers & budgets, not power limitation.

And before we worry about having a game with space & moon craters, we should worry ONLY about the game design. Yes you personally may not feel like Superman because of those things, but many would agree of whats more important.

Once again, I'm not nitpicking about the pedestrians being frozen or flying through buildings - that implies that I didn't like SR because of those specific things. I was giving examples of how I thought those things could've been more realistic, just as you gave examples of different side missions he could go on.

Once again not the same thing. Side missions arent about being more realistic, its about adding gameplay variety & depth. Freezing Pedestrians longer doesnt effect anything gameplay related. Its more of a gimmick than anything.

I want to feel the power because I want to feel like I'm Superman. That's why I'm playing the game in the first place. It would benefit the game because I'd feel more like Superman, making the game feel more immersive.

Everyone is different. I dont mind being limited to Metropolis, not collapsing buildings, freezing people etc. I'd much rather focus on whats is important not those over the top things

If you really need to feel that theres no limitations in a Superman game. Maybe you should give up on the franchise for now. The things that you want wont be in any of the games for a while. And thats not saying good superman games can't be made now. Its saying you would prefer that much more that just a good game.

IMHO, side missions are not great gameplay. Even if a Superman game had several different side missions, if the main missions aren't any fun or are underdeveloped, it's just not going to be a memorable game.

The thing is Side missions & main missions wouldnt show much difference in a Superman game. Its all about what you want to add in to give it more substance & importance.

Example from side missions I listed above: ''1. Police car chases''. This could very well be 2 minutes to complete if you wanted it to be. However the same scenario could in fact be stretched out & made into a main mission. By simply using a sequence like the following...

1. Having a lead up cutscene, possibly Clark & Lois at the Daily Planet watching Breaking news about a High speed Police Car chase taking place
2. Clark has to come up with lame excuses to get away possibly a RPG element here
3.As Clark Kent you walk to the rooftop of the daily Planet/change into the suit, fly off
4. Your flying toward the objective
5. Implementing interfering objectives that offer a distraction(Someone in danger near by or injured needs help)
6. After stopping that you having to relocate the chase possibly using a Super hearing mechanic
7. Now your back on track flying toward the objective
8. Adding in another cutscene between the people in the car during the chase
9. Flash back to getting full control & having to stop the car in a specific way
10. After that, Wrap up cutscene where interrogation takes place between Supe & the criminals that has inside info on whatever the main plot may be in the game
10th Escort them to the police station
11th Cutscene where a conversation between Supe & a cop takes place , leads to a hot lead for the next mission.
DONE!

Would that not be a good mission that involves the story?

You see what I am saying? The same side missions you think wouldnt be meaningful, can infact be made into a main mission. And can be transformed back into a short side mission popup in a free roam world without all those other elements. It would just be a straight forward ''stop the chase'' side mission with no distractions or cutscenes.

The same thing can be done with many other things I listed .

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----

Another cool mission would be tracking a truck carrying timed explosives. The dilemma is its a matter of time before it goes off. There are 8 or more trucks, you must check all spread out around the city. You can go to them one by one using your X ray vision to scan the trucks. Once you found the right one, get the driver our. Pick up the truck, drop it in the ocean or throw it far into the sky.

An Alternate way could be using Super Hearing to pin point the direction of the explosive, making it alittle easier to narrow down the choices & giving you freedom.

[j03superbat]

The reason I brung up the past is because you stated ''Superman Returns was compared to Shadow of Apokolips, I think it's pretty clear that we're just now getting consoles that may be able to handle a Superman game.''

Yet you bring up power limitations even though Superman Returns was on Original Xbox/PS2 as well as 360/PS3. PS2 produced Shadow of Apokolips & Xbox had Man of Steel, did you not notice the difference bewteen those & Returns from a technical standpoint? Which leads to developers & budgets, not power limitation.

It's common for the games at the end of a console's lifecycle to be a lot more impressive than the games at the beginning of the lifecycle. Also, SR for PS2/Xbox was a port that, as critics pointed out, was buggy and nowhere near as impressive as the 360 version. It just didn't cut it. And wondering if the developers had been given the proper budget and time to do a game on the Xbox/GameCube late in that gen is moot, since we've moved and are on 360/PS3 now.

Once again not the same thing. Side missions arent about being more realistic, its about adding gameplay variety & depth. Freezing Pedestrians longer doesnt effect anything gameplay related. Its more of a gimmick than anything.

I'm not going to reply to anything involving the freezing of pedestrians anymore because this is just ridiculous. I threw it out as an offhand example of something that took me out of the experience, not something that would have improved the game, and my exact words were: "Everything I would freeze would thaw out in a few seconds." I never mentioned freezing people specifically.

And freezing things could affect gameplay. Imagine something like the scene in Superman III where Superman freezes the lake and uses it to cool down a nearby chemical plant, or knocking out a fire hydrant and freezing someone inside the geyser. Gameplay variety.

If you really need to feel that theres no limitations in a Superman game. Maybe you should give up on the franchise for now. The things that you want wont be in any of the games for a while. And thats not saying good superman games can't be made now. Its saying you would prefer that much more that just a good game.

*sigh* Well that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying a good Superman game can be made, but I doubt I'll truly feel like I'm playing as Superman. Is this necessarily a bad thing? No - if the game is genuinely good.

However, I'm also suggesting that if the game isn't sandbox and took place instead in a different environment more resilient to Kryptonians, yet had stuff for you to use your powers on, it would be a creative way to give you all of Superman's powers while offering a different experience. Again, like in space, or with Mr. Mxyzptlk in the 5th dimension. Just ideas - I'm not the one sitting down to produce this game.

The thing is Side missions & main missions wouldnt show much difference in a Superman game. Its all about what you want to add in to give it more substance & importance.

Example from side missions I listed above: ''1. Police car chases''. This could very well be 2 minutes to complete if you wanted it to be. However the same scenario could in fact be stretched out & made into a main mission. By simply using a sequence like the following...

1. Having a lead up cutscene, possibly Clark & Lois at the Daily Planet watching Breaking news about a High speed Police Car chase taking place
2. Clark has to come up with lame excuses to get away possibly a RPG element here
3.As Clark Kent you walk to the rooftop of the daily Planet/change into the suit, fly off
4. Your flying toward the objective
5. Implementing interfering objectives that offer a distraction(Someone in danger near by or injured needs help)
6. After stopping that you having to relocate the chase possibly using a Super hearing mechanic
7. Now your back on track flying toward the objective
8. Adding in another cutscene between the people in the car during the chase
9. Flash back to getting full control & having to stop the car in a specific way
10. After that, Wrap up cutscene where interrogation takes place between Supe & the criminals that has inside info on whatever the main plot may be in the game
10th Escort them to the police station
11th Cutscene where a conversation between Supe & a cop takes place , leads to a hot lead for the next mission.
DONE!

Would that not be a good mission that involves the story?

Maybe at the beginning of the game, but if I'm still doing that sort of thing 75% into the game, I'd probably just grow bored.

You see what I am saying? The same side missions you think wouldnt be meaningful, can infact be made into a main mission. And can be transformed back into a short side mission popup in a free roam world without all those other elements. It would just be a straight forward ''stop the chase'' side mission with no distractions or cutscenes.

The same thing can be done with many other things I listed.

If I'm doing the same things in the side missions as I am in the main missions, I'm pretty sure I'd just get bored. Gamers are savvy to these types of tricks. If you have ten different missions that involve chasing after a car, but you tell them it's a different car each time, they're still going to feel like they're doing the same thing.

Another cool mission would be tracking a truck carrying timed explosives. The dilemma is its a matter of time before it goes off. There are 8 or more trucks, you must check all spread out around the city. You can go to them one by one using your X ray vision to scan the trucks. Once you found the right one, get the driver our. Pick up the truck, drop it in the ocean or throw it far into the sky.

Again, that's a neat example of a side mission.

I think you may be putting too much weight on the side missions. Just look at Spider-Man 2 - the whole game, you can choose to stop a couple of bank robbers or a mugging. They never end. But the main missions send you to Mysterio's funhouse, pit you against Rhino, and advance the story. Yes, some of them are just extended versions of side missions - no question. But there's one where you're saving people out from a burning theatre. There's the final mission where you defeat Doc Ock. There's actual level design put into these missions, not just side missions with main characters put in them. And that's where a developer is going to have to be really creative and think of really good missions for Superman.

An Alternate way could be using Super Hearing to pin point the direction of the explosive, making it alittle easier to narrow down the choices & giving you freedom.

That is a cool use of his super-hearing.

[Khal El Jr]

It's common for the games at the end of a console's lifecycle to be a lot more impressive than the games at the beginning of the lifecycle. Also, SR for PS2/Xbox was a port that, as critics pointed out, was buggy and nowhere near as impressive as the 360 version. It just didn't cut it. And wondering if the developers had been given the proper budget and time to do a game on the Xbox/GameCube late in that gen is moot, since we've moved and are on 360/PS3 now.

It may be common but doesnt mean thats always the case. Plenty of impressive games have been launch titles or released within the 1st 2 years of a life cycle. Not to mention some games have longer development.

And freezing things could affect gameplay. Imagine something like the scene in Superman III where Superman freezes the lake and uses it to cool down a nearby chemical plant, or knocking out a fire hydrant and freezing someone inside the geyser. Gameplay variety.

I'm not denying that Freezing could be useful in the environment at all. However you specifically stated freezing Pedestrians not freezing environment. If that was the case I wouldnt have even brung it up. Both would require a diffent programming making freezing people irrelevant.

Maybe at the beginning of the game, but if I'm still doing that sort of thing 75% into the game, I'd probably just grow bored.

Everyone wont enjoy the same things as others. I think sprinkling these type of missions would reflect Superman more than running around beating robots would.

If I'm doing the same things in the side missions as I am in the main missions, I'm pretty sure I'd just get bored. Gamers are savvy to these types of tricks. If you have ten different missions that involve chasing after a car, but you tell them it's a different car each time, they're still going to feel like they're doing the same thing.

I'm not denying the fact that gamers are smart or implying they liked to be tricked or anything like that. I'm simply stating, the side missions you feel are irrelevant , can be meaningful & help progress the story with the right creativity. That being said similar scenarios could occur in the world with less to do with the story.

Like in the realworld police arrest criminals everyday, not all can give you info on other things but some can. I'd imagine superman prevents the same crimes from happening on his daily patrols. And I'm not saying the game should feature the same poppups over and over. Theres a huge list of other things that can be done given the character's abilities.

Again, that's a neat example of a side mission.

I think you may be putting too much weight on the side missions. Just look at Spider-Man 2 - the whole game, you can choose to stop a couple of bank robbers or a mugging. They never end. But the main missions send you to Mysterio's funhouse, pit you against Rhino, and advance the story. Yes, some of them are just extended versions of side missions - no question. But there's one where you're saving people out from a burning theatre. There's the final mission where you defeat Doc Ock. There's actual level design put into these missions, not just side missions with main characters put in them. And that's where a developer is going to have to be really creative and think of really good missions for Superman.

I think you helped make my point. Spiderman games are basically beat 'em up titles. So main missions dont change much from side missions. Only things that change is the environment, length & story progression. Your still going around beating multiple enemies up only to make it to the boss where you try & beat him up.

Thats usually the case with Superhero games in general. Theres not enough variety in gameplay or mission difference. So I dont see how I'm putting to much weight on Side missions. Maybe I just shouldnt call them side missions, that may be the problem. The things I suggested could be indeed considered a main mission if it was stretched out with added elements.

The reason I think ''side mission'' type scenarios are a point of focus is because it offers variety. You do many different things, many different objectives & gameplay elements. I think when I said side missions you immediately thought irrelevant optional short missions. Thats far from what I'm trying to suggest.

That is a cool use of his super-hearing.

Thats the type of point I'm trying to get across. Missions that offer a variety of things you can do. Missions that alow you to make use of your unique abilities. Also having creative gameplay mechanics such as Superhearing, Slow motion Superspeed, X-ray vision etc. Things that make you feel like Superman.

What would be a good mission in your opinion for a Superman game? Would would you do, how long would it be, what would be the objectives, where would it take place?

I literally can come up with dozens that range from crime, to rescue to boss battle

[j03superbat]

I'm not denying that Freezing could be useful in the environment at all. However you specifically stated freezing Pedestrians not freezing environment.

I did no such thing.

I could do those things, but they were ridiculously limited. The heaviest thing I remember lifting was some of the bigger enemies. Everything I would freeze would thaw out in a few seconds. You could move at super-speed, but doing so on foot made it incredibly difficult to control him. I didn't feel like Superman, except when I was flying.

Again doing these things didnt make the game any better did it? Freezing people longer wouldve made the game better? Picking up bigger objects wouldve made the game better? The problem with the game for most of us wasnt any of this, but the things I previously listed.

I also take issue with the fact that you're making it seem like my problem with the game was that I couldn't do those things, yet in another post I said that I could forgive not having access to Superman's full range of powers if the game was good. You keep saying that Superman Returns had plenty of problems, but you turn it around to make it look like I'm disliking it for some absurd reason. I said the gameplay was repetitive, the controls imprecise, and it lacked depth. Having the ability to lift buildings or melt cars into the concrete would not have made the game any better, but I'd still pop it in just to do those things for a few minutes; it's fun toying with environments.

And that's the last I'm going to say on that issue.

Everyone wont enjoy the same things as others. I think sprinkling these type of missions would reflect Superman more than running around beating robots would.

I'm not saying those missions shouldn't be in the game. Put them in.

Like in the realworld police arrest criminals everyday, not all can give you info on other things but some can. I'd imagine superman prevents the same crimes from happening on his daily patrols. And I'm not saying the game should feature the same poppups over and over. Theres a huge list of other things that can be done given the character's abilities.

You're not saying that, but after so many hours of playtime roaming through a city that randomly generates things for you to do, it's inevitable that actions will repeat. By the end of Spider-Man 2 (a good 15 hours +), I quit doing any side mission that was more complicated than beating up a thug because I knew it wasn't worth my time to do a mission I'd done ten times before. It's great if you build a dynamic world with tons of different side missions to do; but if that's the focus, then it's more of a Metropolis simulation than a game with a beginning, middle, and end. Is that what you're going for?

I think you helped make my point. Spiderman games are basically beat 'em up titles. So main missions dont change much from side missions. Only things that change is the environment, length & story progression. Your still going around beating multiple enemies up only to make it to the boss where you try & beat him up.

The meat of a Spider-Man game may be combat, but there was a huge difference between a mission where you go through Mysterio's funhouse to advance the story and a randomized mission where you chase a car.

The reason I think ''side mission'' type scenarios are a point of focus is because it offers variety. You do many different things, many different objectives & gameplay elements. I think when I said side missions you immediately thought irrelevant optional short missions. Thats far from what I'm trying to suggest.

That's what the name "side mission" implies. That's why I assumed the side missions you're talking about are the same optional, random ones that pop up while you're swinging through New York in Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man 3.

You also said there was little or no point in devoting a lot of effort into the main missions, because "a compelling story out of a Superman game is not going to happen." Well, why not? Why just be satisfied with the status quo? Why not take that as a challenge and write a kickass story for a Superman game?

What would be a good mission in your opinion for a Superman game? Would would you do, how long would it be, what would be the objectives, where would it take place?

It's really difficult to think of one, especially if we're talking about a mission that takes place in a sandbox-style game. Again, I'd prefer it if a future Superman game tried something different; maybe set in space. I really do understand why you're trying to emphasize the side missions. It is difficult to think of ways to challenge the Man of Steel while never making you feel like the game is handicapping you.

I guess for me a memorable mission woudl be something like the scene from Superman: The Movie where the dam bursts and Superman knocks boulders into place. You could easily re-create that scene by placing glowing boulders nearby and having a prompt tell you to hit "A" to knock them over, thus saving the town. There was also a similar scene in Shadow of Apokolips, but it was contextual - you flew over to like three parts of the dams and repeatedly mashed a button to reinforce that part, and then you moved to a different part, and you repeated.

But I'm Superman. I'd like to use the powers and the environment to figure things out on my own. So say the same thing was happening in my game, I'd like the option to dig a trench, evaporate as much of the water as I could (a la Smallville, but a little more realistic - i.e. you couldn't evaporate it all at once like Clark did), build a boulder dam like in the movie - but I want it to be my choice. My solution to the problem. I don't want the game to even let me choose from three *fixed* options. I want the environment to be malleable enough and my powers strong enough to let me solve it my way.

[Khal El Jr]

You're not saying that, but after so many hours of playtime roaming through a city that randomly generates things for you to do, it's inevitable that actions will repeat. By the end of Spider-Man 2 (a good 15 hours +), I quit doing any side mission that was more complicated than beating up a thug because I knew it wasn't worth my time to do a mission I'd done ten times before. It's great if you build a dynamic world with tons of different side missions to do; but if that's the focus, then it's more of a Metropolis simulation than a game with a beginning, middle, and end. Is that what you're going for?

No I'm not going for a Simulated Metropolis game. I want a full Superman game with direction that consist of a decent story at best, a open world experience, a detailed Metropolis, Clark Kent missions, RPG elements for Clark, Plenty of moveable objects, variety of missions, challenging bosses, new gameplay mechanics, a rewarding system, etc.

No doubt if you play any game long enough you will experience the same things. What I'm suggesting is a VERY LONG list that varies. Look at it this way, Superman has alot more he can do than Spiderman.

The meat of a Spider-Man game may be combat, but there was a huge difference between a mission where you go through Mysterio's funhouse to advance the story and a randomized mission where you chase a car.

Well thats a obvious difference. Fun house had a unique level design, you still fought enemies to meet the boss. I think the the main difference is how they are presented to you. Like the sequence I posted earlier showed just changing things around can change your basic car chase into a main mission. A main mission in Spiderman 1 was a car chase where he had to chase his uncle's killer. Its all about adding a few underlying elements.

That's what the name "side mission" implies. That's why I assumed the side missions you're talking about are the same optional, random ones that pop up while you're swinging through New York in Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man 3.

You also said there was little or no point in devoting a lot of effort into the main missions, because "a compelling story out of a Superman game is not going to happen." Well, why not? Why just be satisfied with the status quo? Why not take that as a challenge and write a kickass story for a Superman game?

Yeah optional to a certain extent. Hence why I liked the idea of the Metropilis health bar. You fail to do these little missions that pop up, the bar takes a dip. Also I stated doing these things count for milestones, unlocking you new content to show thanks. It gives more incentive to doing your duty.

I didnt say theres little or no point in putting effort into a main mission. Maybe you misread what I was saying on the matter. I always said main missions are good to progress the story.

It's really difficult to think of one, especially if we're talking about a mission that takes place in a sandbox-style game. Again, I'd prefer it if a future Superman game tried something different; maybe set in space. I really do understand why you're trying to emphasize the side missions. It is difficult to think of ways to challenge the Man of Steel while never making you feel like the game is handicapping you.

I guess for me a memorable mission woudl be something like the scene from Superman: The Movie where the dam bursts and Superman knocks boulders into place. You could easily re-create that scene by placing glowing boulders nearby and having a prompt tell you to hit "A" to knock them over, thus saving the town. There was also a similar scene in Shadow of Apokolips, but it was contextual - you flew over to like three parts of the dams and repeatedly mashed a button to reinforce that part, and then you moved to a different part, and you repeated.

But I'm Superman. I'd like to use the powers and the environment to figure things out on my own. So say the same thing was happening in my game, I'd like the option to dig a trench, evaporate as much of the water as I could (a la Smallville, but a little more realistic - i.e. you couldn't evaporate it all at once like Clark did), build a boulder dam like in the movie - but I want it to be my choice. My solution to the problem. I don't want the game to even let me choose from three *fixed* options. I want the environment to be malleable enough and my powers strong enough to let me solve it my way.

Thats something I would enjoy doing with many options available as superman. I enjoy games that offer alternate routes to get the same job done. However it sounds pretty short to be a main mission wouldnt you say? Its tough to come up with a long mission without it getting repetitive. Thats why I say mission variety should be the focus. So you can do things like that because its a great unique experience. Have the boss battles as the long lasting events.

[j03superbat]

No I'm not going for a Simulated Metropolis game. I want a full Superman game with direction that consist of a decent story at best, a open world experience, a detailed Metropolis, Clark Kent missions, RPG elements for Clark, Plenty of moveable objects, variety of missions, challenging bosses, new gameplay mechanics, a rewarding system, etc.

I would be interested in the Clark Kent missions, but what new gameplay mechanics do you have in mind?

Well thats a obvious difference. Fun house had a unique level design, you still fought enemies to meet the boss. I think the the main difference is how they are presented to you. Like the sequence I posted earlier showed just changing things around can change your basic car chase into a main mission. A main mission in Spiderman 1 was a car chase where he had to chase his uncle's killer. Its all about adding a few underlying elements.

But the funhouse mission didn't just add underlying elements - it fundamentally changed how you were playing the game. When you weren't in a mission, you could freely swing around the city and if you chose to complete a side mission, you would go ahead and do so - they all took place outdoors. The funhouse mission put you indoors, focused more on linear level design rather than let you swing wherever you wanted to, and had puzzle-solving elements that made it more complex than a randomly-generated side mission.

I do understand that you can add an element to a side mission to make it a main mission, but I'm not sure you see the difference if you boil the funhouse mission down to just "fighting enemies." It's much more than just making the driver in a car chase someone important and throwing in a cutscene - it involved game design specific to that level.

I guess what I'm asking is for examples of elaborate main missions; not just extended versions of side missions that I could play whenever I want.

Thats something I would enjoy doing with many options available as superman. I enjoy games that offer alternate routes to get the same job done. However it sounds pretty short to be a main mission wouldnt you say?

Look, I just threw out the first thing that came to mind - what do you want from me?

I'm not a game developer. I don't feel comfortable describing exactly how I'd want a mission to start, how long it would last, and how it should be completed because there's a lot of technical knowledge that goes into creating just one level. I don't have that knowledge. I don't know what's technically possible to create in a game and what's not.

[Khal El Jr]

I would be interested in the Clark Kent missions, but what new gameplay mechanics do you have in mind?

What I was thinking was missions like we see in the tv series or movies where Clark & Lois do some investigating. Something regarding the main mission. Clark has to be sneaky with his abilities & not let Lois see him use his powers. So the objectives require X-Ray Vision, super strength, Micro vision etc.

Ex. You & Lois in a confined room are looking for evidence of some sort, you must make sure she isnt facing you while you use your abilities. You may need to use your Superstregnth to break a lock. You may need to find a hidden compartment. You may need to use your superspeed & get something before lois notices it(Super Slow motion type event).

Also light RPG elements. As Clark is a reporter, why not have him involved in some Q & A here & there. Maybe a couple options from him to choose from.

I really liked an idea about a identity meter. We know how clark tries to protect his identity. Why not feature that in the game. So not letting lois see you use powers, making up good lies & excuses during RPG sequences would be essential. If she somehow finds out, make it so she is in more dangerous side missions than before. She now knows your superman so she gets herself into bad situations as she know you will save her.

I do understand that you can add an element to a side mission to make it a main mission, but I'm not sure you see the difference if you boil the funhouse mission down to just "fighting enemies." It's much more than just making the driver in a car chase someone important and throwing in a cutscene - it involved game design specific to that level.

I guess what I'm asking is for examples of elaborate main missions; not just extended versions of side missions that I could play whenever I want.

I understand, I'm just saying they both go by the same code. Like Side missions are not all short as you would think. GTA side missions are as detailed as main missions. Mass Effect 2 side quest are as deep as the main missions. Its all about the objective & how you build around it. As you said level design plays a part but thats not always the case.


The chase mission I came up with you would call extended, but it had an underlying connection to the story, gave you inside info on the plot it transferred to the next mission. I barely mentioned the gameplay differences because i didnt think i had to. The chase wouldve been different, driving wouldve been trickier, obstacles wouldve been implemented regarding the routes & the way you had to finish the chase would be a bit of a challenge.

Look, I just threw out the first thing that came to mind - what do you want from me?

I'm not a game developer. I don't feel comfortable describing exactly how I'd want a mission to start, how long it would last, and how it should be completed because there's a lot of technical knowledge that goes into creating just one level. I don't have that knowledge. I don't know what's technically possible to create in a game and what's not.

All I was suggesting was give me your ideal level in a superman game. You seem to have alot of ideas about the world & the possibilities. I just wanted to see what you want to do in the world regarding the single player experience.

I liked the mission but that could be done fairly quick or would that not matter? It certainly is a important mission but doesnt carry the same depth as another one could. Now you could simply add a few things, like fully copy the movie & have to save Lois. So your juggling two serious matters at once. Making the mission more intense becuase you can lose the city or lose lois if you slip up.

When I was talking about focusing on saves & heroic acts you made it seem like it would be boring. Your idea would be one of those heoric acts just like mines. I think we are on the same page but the word side mission may have been the wrong word or i didnt elaborate enough.

Certain things I listed very well could be just small events that reuire not much to complete. However some could be designed further to really be a neat main mission.

[j03superbat]

What I was thinking was missions like we see in the tv series or movies where Clark & Lois do some investigating. Something regarding the main mission. Clark has to be sneaky with his abilities & not let Lois see him use his powers. So the objectives require X-Ray Vision, super strength, Micro vision etc.

Ex. You & Lois in a confined room are looking for evidence of some sort, you must make sure she isnt facing you while you use your abilities. You may need to use your Superstregnth to break a lock. You may need to find a hidden compartment. You may need to use your superspeed & get something before lois notices it(Super Slow motion type event).

Also light RPG elements. As Clark is a reporter, why not have him involved in some Q & A here & there. Maybe a couple options from him to choose from.

I really liked an idea about a identity meter. We know how clark tries to protect his identity. Why not feature that in the game. So not letting lois see you use powers, making up good lies & excuses during RPG sequences would be essential. If she somehow finds out, make it so she is in more dangerous side missions than before. She now knows your superman so she gets herself into bad situations as she know you will save her.

Good ideas.

I understand, I'm just saying they both go by the same code. Like Side missions are not all short as you would think. GTA side missions are as detailed as main missions. Mass Effect 2 side quest are as deep as the main missions. Its all about the objective & how you build around it. As you said level design plays a part but thats not always the case.

But in this specific case it does play a part. If I swing around the city long enough, I'll find a car chase, but the only time I get to go through that funhouse is for that specific mission.

The chase mission I came up with you would call extended, but it had an underlying connection to the story, gave you inside info on the plot it transferred to the next mission. I barely mentioned the gameplay differences because i didnt think i had to. The chase wouldve been different, driving wouldve been trickier, obstacles wouldve been implemented regarding the routes & the way you had to finish the chase would be a bit of a challenge.

Again, that's not the issue. A car chase is a car chase - you're just adding a cutscene and making it a little harder. I'm not trying to belittle the fact that it could be made into a main mission, I'm just saying you can have a similar experience in a different part of the game.

You're focusing too much on the fact that in the funhouse you were fighting enemies when in fact it was multiple elements that made the experience different. It was linear, indoors, and there were segments that played with the physics of the game. And that's just one level from the game, of course. I'm asking if there would be any main missions in a Superman game that would be a departure from what you're doing the rest of the time. You already mentioned the Clark Kent missions, but is there anything you'd do as Superman that would be unique?

All I was suggesting was give me your ideal level in a superman game. You seem to have alot of ideas about the world & the possibilities. I just wanted to see what you want to do in the world regarding the single player experience.

I liked the mission but that could be done fairly quick or would that not matter?

I don't know - it could be a part of a bigger objective. As I said before, I have no experience working on video games, so anything I could think of has the potential to be amazing in my head, but not when actually implemented.

I liken it to someone who has no experience with filmmaking throwing out their idea for their perfect movie. It's great that you have your own ideas about what would constitute a great movie - but once you learn about the process (what is and isn't possible, how hard it is to get funding for a film, how integral things that you may never have paid attention to are), you quickly realize, "Oh, maybe my idea isn't really doable."

So I don't feel comfortable going too in-depth about things that if I ever suggested to an actual game developer might sound flawed or technically impossible or simply not as fun as I pictured in my head. My point in mentioning stopping a broken dam is merely that I kinda' would like to play that in some form - specifically with the ability to stop it how I choose. I'm not going to go into specifics, but I'd like to experience that.

When I was talking about focusing on saves & heroic acts you made it seem like it would be boring. Your idea would be one of those heoric acts just like mines.

Yeah, it would be. I think heroic acts/rescues should be in the game.

But, a dam breaking doesn't happen everyday, and that's sort of my concern - you're putting emphasis on side missions (like crime, etc.) that could happen any day at any time. I want the experience of playing something memorable - a true display of Superman's power. Something like a "Hey, remember that scene from Superman: The Movie?" moment. But I don't want it to be directed. I think video games are oversaturated with "interactive cutscenes" that just have you press the button that flashes on the screen. That takes no skill and is no cooler than if I'd managed to pull something like that off on my own.

Short of that, I'd like a compelling narrative. Ideally, you'd have both but it may be too difficult to give you that kind of control over Superman's abilities and his environment. So while you think a Superman story will never amount to more than "Superman beating up some enemies" I think - no, buckle down and think about what makes him unique. How can that be translated into an interactive story?

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

What I was thinking was missions like we see in the tv series or movies where Clark & Lois do some investigating. Something regarding the main mission. Clark has to be sneaky with his abilities & not let Lois see him use his powers. So the objectives require X-Ray Vision, super strength, Micro vision etc.

Ex. You & Lois in a confined room are looking for evidence of some sort, you must make sure she isnt facing you while you use your abilities. You may need to use your Superstregnth to break a lock. You may need to find a hidden compartment. You may need to use your superspeed & get something before lois notices it(Super Slow motion type event).

Also light RPG elements. As Clark is a reporter, why not have him involved in some Q & A here & there. Maybe a couple options from him to choose from.

I really liked an idea about a identity meter. We know how clark tries to protect his identity. Why not feature that in the game. So not letting lois see you use powers, making up good lies & excuses during RPG sequences would be essential. If she somehow finds out, make it so she is in more dangerous side missions than before. She now knows your superman so she gets herself into bad situations as she know you will save her.

I understand, I'm just saying they both go by the same code. Like Side missions are not all short as you would think. GTA side missions are as detailed as main missions. Mass Effect 2 side quest are as deep as the main missions. Its all about the objective & how you build around it. As you said level design plays a part but thats not always the case.

I like your ideas. I'd definately play a Superman game like that. L.A Noire with Superman. Kinda.

I agree Mass Effect handled both the main mission(s) and side mission very well. With Superman the maps need to be bigger and more open. No neccesarily GTA big but like...well Battlefield Bad Company 2 big-ish where there's lots of room to fly and have an envirement that breaks pretty well.

But in my experience you can only have a good narrative or an open world. When mixing those two one or the other suffers. GTA IV's narrative weakens and so does Oblivion's when the world is so big that there aren't too much detail the individual stories and graphics.

If it's the other way around we get Mafia and Mafia II where the story is excellent but the open world aspect leaves a lot to be desired (if compared to GTA & Oblivion for example).

[j03superbat]

But in my experience you can only have a good narrative or an open world. When mixing those two one or the other suffers. GTA IV's narrative weakens and so does Oblivion's when the world is so big that there aren't too much detail the individual stories and graphics.

I agree in a general sense, but I thought GTA IV's narrative was amazing. I loved the story, including the two downloadable add-on packs.

[Khal El Jr]

But in this specific case it does play a part. If I swing around the city long enough, I'll find a car chase, but the only time I get to go through that funhouse is for that specific mission.

You may find a car chase but it wont be the same. Just like if you play through Assassins Creed, yes you assassinate people in numerous missions but they are not the same even though the objective is.

Again, that's not the issue. A car chase is a car chase - you're just adding a cutscene and making it a little harder. I'm not trying to belittle the fact that it could be made into a main mission, I'm just saying you can have a similar experience in a different part of the game.

You're focusing too much on the fact that in the funhouse you were fighting enemies when in fact it was multiple elements that made the experience different. It was linear, indoors, and there were segments that played with the physics of the game. And that's just one level from the game, of course. I'm asking if there would be any main missions in a Superman game that would be a departure from what you're doing the rest of the time. You already mentioned the Clark Kent missions, but is there anything you'd do as Superman that would be unique?

Why is having similar experiences a bad thing? Your superman, what does he do besides save people & fight crime?

Unique main missions? Hes a super powered alien that deals with disasters, crime & fights other giant powerhouses on a daily basis. Thats his character & thats what he does. Its more about how they are designed not the objective.

Now all those things could have variety within themselves. There are many villians, many crimes, many recsues, many Disasters & many other things you can feature. He has many powers you can make use of, which make the experience that much more better.

Yeah, it would be. I think heroic acts/rescues should be in the game.

But, a dam breaking doesn't happen everyday, and that's sort of my concern - you're putting emphasis on side missions (like crime, etc.) that could happen any day at any time. I want the experience of playing something memorable - a true display of Superman's power. Something like a "Hey, remember that scene from Superman: The Movie?" moment. But I don't want it to be directed. I think video games are oversaturated with "interactive cutscenes" that just have you press the button that flashes on the screen. That takes no skill and is no cooler than if I'd managed to pull something like that off on my own.

Listen, what your saying with disisaters is stuff i mentioned in teh very beginning of this thread when i was talking about variety. I'm not saying focus on 1 specific thing, I'm saying focus on a large variety of missions. Missions that make use of his powers, missions that only you can do where no other superhero can.

You talk about the Superman movies, What does he do in those movies? He does the exact things Ive been writing about.

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----

I like your ideas. I'd definately play a Superman game like that. L.A Noire with Superman. Kinda.

I agree Mass Effect handled both the main mission(s) and side mission very well. With Superman the maps need to be bigger and more open. No neccesarily GTA big but like...well Battlefield Bad Company 2 big-ish where there's lots of room to fly and have an envirement that breaks pretty well.

But in my experience you can only have a good narrative or an open world. When mixing those two one or the other suffers. GTA IV's narrative weakens and so does Oblivion's when the world is so big that there aren't too much detail the individual stories and graphics.

If it's the other way around we get Mafia and Mafia II where the story is excellent but the open world aspect leaves a lot to be desired (if compared to GTA & Oblivion for example).

Appreciate the feedback. I feel a Superman game should be fun & should put you in Clark Kent/Superman's Shoes. So he has 2 jobs, reporting & being a hero. That would be the best combination of a Superman game. You wont get bored quickly because you do a variety of things as you adapt to a variety of situations.

I agree a open world would be ideal. So many more options & thats the best way to potray him. Focus should be on gameplay for a superman game. It outweighs a story imo by a huge margin.

[j03superbat]

You may find a car chase but it wont be the same. Just like if you play through Assassins Creed, yes you assassinate people in numerous missions but they are not the same even though the objective is.

Why is having similar experiences a bad thing? Your superman, what does he do besides save people & fight crime?

A lot of open world games handle mission variety much differently.

It's not that there's anything wrong with one mission making a car chase integral to the story, it's that there are other car chases in the game (among all the other stuff you include too). How are you going to give the player a break from all of that and deliver a mission that's distinct and different from the side missions in terms of gameplay? Not every main mission has to be distinct and different - I just wanted an example of one.

Unique main missions? Hes a super powered alien that deals with disasters, crime & fights other giant powerhouses on a daily basis. Thats his character & thats what he does. Its more about how they are designed not the objective.

Now all those things could have variety within themselves. There are many villians, many crimes, many recsues, many Disasters & many other things you can feature. He has many powers you can make use of, which make the experience that much more better.

Spider-Man essentially does the same thing - he fights crime and saves people, and yet most of the main missions of Spider-Man 2 weren't elaborate versions of the side missions at all. They were indoors and featured level design (something that's difficult to do in an open-world game).

In GTA IV, your character has a strict set of abilities (being a human and all) so the most memorable main missions are stuff like the bank heist, where you and three other characters hold up a bank, blow out the back wall, and frantically try to escape. Among other reasons, it's unique because it features the one thing you don't do the entire game - rob banks.

I don't know, maybe I still don't understand how you're using the word "side mission."

I gave the dam example earlier - maybe that was a bad example. Here's a better one: Mxyzptlk shows up and takes you into the fifth dimension. It's all wacky and your powers don't work the way they do on Earth. Here's another: fighting through the center of the Earth to rescue Lois from the sewer dwellers. You can't just burrow through to her because that would ruin the foundation and cause Metropolis to collapse. Another: being shunted into a possible future where humanity has died out and Metropolis is empty. Maybe the sun is even red. Objective: get back to the present.

Listen, what your saying with disisaters is stuff i mentioned in teh very beginning of this thread when i was talking about variety. I'm not saying focus on 1 specific thing, I'm saying focus on a large variety of missions. Missions that make use of his powers, missions that only you can do where no other superhero can.

You didn't mention a dam breaking. I kid.

[Khal El Jr]

A lot of open world games handle mission variety much differently.

It's not that there's anything wrong with one mission making a car chase integral to the story, it's that there are other car chases in the game (among all the other stuff you include too). How are you going to give the player a break from all of that and deliver a mission that's distinct and different from the side missions in terms of gameplay? Not every main mission has to be distinct and different - I just wanted an example of one.

The differences in gameplay wouldnt stray far from each other. The distinction would be a mix of a few things. Progression/link to the story, mission legnth, feature main characters, increase in difficulty, Missions that where timing is of importance, Missions that require certain powers, Some Linear gameplay, multiple objectives, & things would be done on a larger scale.

I already gave you examples of this.

Another Example: Someone has kidnapped Lois. The only guy that may have some info on where shes being held is coming out of prison. You as Superman must get to the prison before he gets released. Find a vantage point, follow him to another location, but keeping a safe distance. He meets up with another criminal. They discuss Lois kidnapping. You must use your super hearing to get the info. That info gives you a lead of multiple locations she may be held. You must travel to those locations & check around. Once you get to the right location have a cutscene of Lois inside being a smartas with the guys holding her hostage.

You must make your way through the facility undetected. This would require some good ol slow motion super speed. The facility is rather large, so X-Ray vision would be of use to find where Lois is being held. In the end you get to the main room, you must disarm the criminals. After that is done, you must take lois back to the planet. Before that you must defeat a secret weapon(a rather large Mech). Nothing too hard but require a few superpowers to win. After that you pick up lois & fly away. While flying her back she gives you inside info on what the criminals were up to & that would lead to the next main mission scenario

Spider-Man essentially does the same thing - he fights crime and saves people, and yet most of the main missions of Spider-Man 2 weren't elaborate versions of the side missions at all. They were indoors and featured level design (something that's difficult to do in an open-world game).

Not a good example.

Batman also fights crime but look at the differences between his game & Spiderman games. Both have beat em up style to them, but the thats all they have in common.

Superman is a a completely different type of character. Hes much more powerful than Spiderman. He doesnt have to worry about getting hurt, He doesnt have to use agility like spiderman.

A big part of Spiderman games are beat em up styled gameplay. Superman can't do that, because hes too powerful. Yes it has been done in the past but it wasnt a accurate portrayal.

Another big part of Spiderman games are getting from point A to point B. So that would be his web slinging all across town. Superman can fly & run at ridicoulous speeds.

Superman is more of a Outdoor character imo, his abilities are just above what can be contained indoors for most missions. Hes a guy you want to fly with, hes a guy you want to lift objects with, hes a guy you dont want to be in a confined area with.

I don't know, maybe I still don't understand how you're using the word "side mission."

Different type of side missions. Like we see the difference in Mass Effect 2 & Spiderman 2 & 3.

Mine is along the lines of Spiderman's. Somewhat short objectives that are striaght forward that have nothing to do with the main story. Things like rescuing people, stopping crimes etc.

Essential to have a large variety of them in a Superman game. I mean over 30. Superman could do alot of things, lets not avoid that fact.

I gave the dam example earlier - maybe that was a bad example. Here's a better one: Mxyzptlk shows up and takes you into the fifth dimension. It's all wacky and your powers don't work the way they do on Earth. Here's another: fighting through the center of the Earth to rescue Lois from the sewer dwellers. You can't just burrow through to her because that would ruin the foundation and cause Metropolis to collapse. Another: being shunted into a possible future where humanity has died out and Metropolis is empty. Maybe the sun is even red. Objective: get back to the present

It wasnt a bad example of a mission at all. It was just simplistic & didnt have the elements needed to make it sound like a indepth experience. IMO It just needed a things added.

Mxyzptilk sounds interesting but what would you do in the mission?

I was actually thinking of a sewer mission that he could do aswell.

Losing his powers is a concept i'm not a fan of really. I saw a few ideas where he had to get his powers back for a game to be good. I want to play as SUPERMAN, not just man. It would open the door up to Stealth & beat em up gameplay. The thing is he doesnt have a fighting background, so he would lack movesets & defense.