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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cloning Blues
    Okay, let's be fair: being Darkseid's pawn still leaves you in some pretty distinguished company. It's happened to everybody at some point or another. And actually, it could still turn out awesome, especially if Lex found some way to cheat his way out of whatever debt Darkseid thinks he owes him.
    I just don't want Lex as Darkseid's pawn. Especially when it involved his existence. I'd rather have Lex work with Darkseid sometime down the line in the distant future, which would be way after the events of the series.

    Secondly, I hope "Requiem" Lex wasn't a clone. Because if he was that negates the entire point of the episode. Whatever you might think about how it was handled, the final collapse of Clark and Lana was a pivotal moment in the series, and to have anyone other than the real Lex Luthor behind it would seriously cheapen what emotion there was in it. It's also one of the few times that we see Lex acting like a legitimate supervillain. No whining about how his dad treated him, no "Clark didn't trust me," just pure unadulterated supervillainy. In "Requiem" Lex proved that even without his company, money, connections, and assets, stuck on an IV in the back of a truck and deprived of his very mobility, he was a lethal threat to the world's superheroes. He had them quaking in their boots when he was the one on life support.Take that away and what has Smallville's Lex done? Pulled a soap opera style fake pregnancy test on Lana, killed his dad in a temper tantrum, and been used by Brainiac. That's it. To justify him being the kind of threat this season has built him up to be, "Requiem" Lex needs to be the real deal.
    Before saying anything else about this, I'll say I would rather negate an already-horrible episode and dissociate Lex from Clark & Lana's breakup than totally ruin the character of Lex Luthor. They already ruined Lex enough (along with wasted his appearances on the show) by having him in the middle of a love triangle between Clark & Lana, which I never ever wanted. But despite this, we could still have Lex involved by not having Requiem-Lex be the real Lex. If the real Lex was behind the Requiem-Lex, which could have been a clone or prototypical cyborg, then in the end, it was Lex who would be responsible all along. And not only would this be the case, but it would also mean that Lex wasn't stupid enough to sacrifice his existence just for revenge on Clark & Lana and instead was smart enough to have used a clone or cyborg. The real Lex being blown up would not be the act of a supervillain but the act of a deseperate idiot who thought revenge was more important than his own life. And the real Lex should never ever be depicted as being so stupid or sloppy. The behavior of the Requiem-Lex mirrored that of the evil Lex clone in Lazarus, where that clone knew he was going to die and didn't care. Requiem-Lex being a clone would fall into the same scenario. I justify clones that knew they would die in acting like that. But I don't justify the real Lex Luthor, who's supposed to be Superman's ultimate villain to be so stupid or petty that he wanted revenge after being scorned by Lana of all people. So making the real Lex be the puppet master behind a clone or cyborg which would have been Requiem-Lex would prevent the real Lex from having been portrayed as a desperate, scorned revenge-minded fool in Requiem while also being behind everything that happened in that episode.

    And if you ask me, a prototypical cyborg would make more sense given:

    1. Lex had been producing Lex clones at Cadmus and Lex could have gotten his scientists or the Toyman himself to remove the organs of one of them & outfit him with mechanical parts (this would tie into the fact that Lex bought Cyntechnics, which is the company that altered Victor Stone)

    2. The involvement of Toyman, a master electronics & robotics genius, in Requiem

    3. How the next time we saw Toyman in Echo he had a fully functioning cyborg of himself that had a bomb inside & seemed like an advanced version of the Requiem-Lex model cyborg (if he was a cyborg), and such a Toyman cyborg would have required serious funding that Lex could have given him

    4. How there were devices & wires that were hooked up to Requiem-Lex that make it entirely possible he was an imperfect cyborg model that the Toyman whipped up

    5. That it would not object to being set up to die by the real Lex like a clone may object.

    6. How in Echo, besides seeing the Toyman with a bomb-containing cyborg of himself we also saw Oliver see Lex's reflection for a brief moment on the rooftop in that glass door, which would be entirely possible if there was a Lex-Toyman collaboration and had Lex been using the same technology we saw his scientists use on Wes Keenan in Prototype on himself to make him be able to cloak & decloak at will

    And Lex wasn't behind the VRA. Godfrey and Darkseid were. And seriously, if Lex has been out there all this time and done nothing...what exactly does that say about his threat value. He knows Clark's secret, why isn't he on his front doorstep with Green K. Only the events of "Requiem" can justify that. Similarly, his soul was shown to be in some kind of limbo in an earlier episode. My best guess is Lex put himself there, and Darkseid isn't so much going to bring him back to life, as break him out. And it wouldn't be the first time Luthor has been in debt to darker forces. In the comics Luthor sold his soul to Neron in an effort to regain his mobility after his cloned body degenerated to the point of uselessness.
    But Darkseid & Godfrey didn't have operatives in the government. Someone would had to be influencing those in the government. If the government was just affected by Darkseid's power & Godfrey's influence, then the VRA would have never been repealed since a government in a Darkseid/Godfrey trance would have just ignored the public outcry & continued with the law. Lex not immediately striking doesn't mean he has no threat value. The most dangerous threats gather information and extend their knowledge while picking out the most inopportune time for their nemesis to strike.

    I specifically referred to the example of Neron as something that would not be consistent with Lex being bailed out by Darkseid in Smallville. If the real Lex in Smallville died in Requiem, then it means he had no role in being put into that situation since he died involuntarily. Requiem-Lex did not want to die, but was rather killed by Oliver. So if Requiem-Lex is the real Lex, then Lex was put into the position of needing to be saved by Darkseid by someone else (Oliver). But in the comics, the only reason Lex had to make that deal with Neron was because of Lex's own evil nature. His evil nature is what led to him wearing the ring, which gave him cancer, which led to him cloning himself and transplanting his brain to his clone, where he then posed as his own son when he crashed a plane containing his original body to make it seem like Lex Luthor died. But ultimately his cloned body began deteriorating and he was forced to sell Neron his soul, which itself was a voluntary thing Lex did. And all of this is rooted in his obsession in wearing the green-k ring for so long. And Lex selling his soul is what paid any debt he would have to Neron. So in the end, comics Lex sold his soul to keep himself alive all because of his own nature. But Requiem-Lex would have died & be brought back by Darkseid all because of Oliver Queen, not because of himself.

    As far as Lex's soul in the afterlife as we saw it in Lazarus is concerned, what I have been suggesting is that Lex has been using an enhanced & safer version of the death serum seen in Void to enter the afterlife and learn the same knowledge about the future from the afterlife that Jonathan exhibited in Void & Lazarus and Lillian Luthor also exhibited in Void. I've been saying that in the end, revealing a Lex Luthor who uses the invisibility technology his own scientists developed (which they would have originally obtained after studying Graham Garrett's corpse from Fade & used on Wes Keenan in Prototype in a device that was hooked up to him) to get around undetected and spy on his enemies during his assumed death and who uses an enhanced version of the death serum from Void to learn the secrets from the afterlife to feed his neverending thirst for knowledge would create the type of Lex Luthor I want Superman to face. He would be a Lex Luthor who would go beyond death itself (without sloppily killing himself) to gain the upper hand while learning everything he needed to about his enemies and playing the puppetmaster behind the scenes while choosing the best time to strike & reveal himself. It would also be amazing continuity to go back and tie to the plots of episodes like Void, Fade, Prototype, Requiem, and Echo. Because it would show a Lex who did not die but used every tool at his disposal to keep himself hidden until the right time.

    Lex would also stay hidden because of all the Kandorians who showed up and he would be able to do more damage that way that Clark wouldn't be able to detect. I still think the real Lex was who murdered the Jor-El clone because Alia being Jor-El's murderer never made sense. If I was writing this show, I would execute my Alia-Brainiac-orb theory by having the Brainiac crystal that Tess stole from Clark use the orb as its mouthpiece to communicate with Tess & trick her to bring the crystal next to the orb so it would absorb into the orb, making Tess believe it was destroyed, and ultimately release the final copy of Brainiac when the orb opened. And that final copy would take the form of the person we believed to be Alia, explaining why she had powers under both suns. Lex & Brainiac/Alia would have collaborated to rid Earth of the Kandorians so that Brainiac could release General Zod's phantom & have it merge with Major Zod's body as a fatal wound is delivered to Major Zod where he would be healed after General Zod permanently takes over his body. Then Brainiac & Zod would leave Earth according to Lex's deal with him since Lex wouldn't want Zod on Earth. But this plan would have been derailed by the events of Salvation. So if I'm writing the show, Zod would return this season & Brainiac would return & make his presence known briefly taking the form as Alia & changing back to himself while smirking at Clark to confirm my theory & Brainiac would merge the 2 Zods and leave Earth to travel in space like he does in the comics to fight Clark as Superman again in the future while a merged General Zod is moments later sent to the Phantom Zone in corporeal form by Clark. This would all happen after Zod returns as a good guy on Clark's side who gets stabbed with a blue-k knife by Brainiac where unlike Clark in Lazarus, his soul stays permanently in the afterlife while General Zod's phantom takes over his body. The theory executed in such a manner would mean that the Alia who time traveled back to the events of Savior would have not really died, but just made Clark to believe she did. Once Clark buried her, she would dig herself out and move on to work with Lex. The 2nd Alia/Brainiac who didn't time travel would have sacrificed herself to keep the whole murderer of Jor-El, Lex, and the entire Lex-Brainiac deal, secret.

    Dying in a truck explosion may not be a glorioius way to go. Yet he did a huge amount of damage in that episiode before he went. That fear in Clark's voice when he talks about Lex? It's because of "Requiem". If that wasn't the real Lex, than his threat value and his accomplishments drop to zero. And that's far worse character wise than being in debt to Darkseid.
    Like I said, I don't think Lex should be sacrificed for any of plot, and even better, the plot doesn't even need to be sacrificed/negated if it's revealed the Lex who was blown up was a cyborg or clone and was a puppet of the real Lex, who would have been behind the entire thing. The real Lex actually dying in an explosion just to seperate Clark & Lana isn't any sort of accomplishment unless he didn't die and used a cyborg or clone instead as his puppet.
    Last edited by xrayvision; 03-07-2011, 03:56 PM.

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    • #17
      So you want Lex to have been in hiding because of the Kandorians, and to have been inflicting some sort of damage on Clark from the shadows? Problem is there's only so many things you can retcon to having been his fault. If you make it the VRA you take away from Darkseid. If you make it the Jor-El clone's death you're really stretching the limits of his abilities. No matter what, it would be a case of Lex having done very little for two years despite knowing all about Clark and Oliver. Why do something like kill Jor-El when you can send hitmen armed with Green K after him? There has to be a reason that hasn't happened.

      We're going to have to agree to disagree about "Requiem". I admit that it was a bad idea, but it was one that got executed very well, and probably gave us some of the best performances from the cast. Moreover, Lex's plan in "Requiem" never came off to me as "If I can't have her, you can't either." It was more of "I'm going to hurt you. This is how." If Clark hadn't been with Lana I have no doubt he would have targeted others who were close to him. This was just a way to kill two birds with one stone.

      And Lex has done things like prioritise revenge over reason in both the comics and various other adaptations. In the DCAU he attempted to punch Darkseid in the face when the latter destroyed Brainiac. In the story we've been discussing, Lex after ending up in a vegetative state, used Superman's Kryptonian battlesuit to go on a rampage through downtown Metropolis that ended with his near death and imprisonment. And in fact, the only thing Lex miscalculated in "Requiem" was Toyman's ability to keep Oliver occupied. Clark certainly wouldn't have killed him, and even Lana was past that at this point. If Winslow had just stabbed Oliver (or even kept him busy a few minutes longer) Lex might well have lived to see his revenge and then gone to the hospital. That said, I'm not sure he cared at that point, much like the degenerating Lex in the comics.

      Also, if Lex wasn't dying, what was the point of the clones? We've been told they were intended to heal him. If he wasn't a wreck like the one we saw in "Requiem" what's the point?

      I do share your concern about Lex becoming Darkseid's puppet. I really do. And if this were an early season, I'd be doubly worried because knowing Smallville, they'd drag it out over the next season. But this season is the last one. It will end with Darkseid getting sent home, meaning Lex is free of debt to him. Under those circumstances I could see it being handled well. In fact, here's a good scenario: Darkseid brings Lex back and demands he help him take down Clark/The Blur. Lex agrees, and sets up the conflict, hoping Darkseid will kill Clark, all while taking measures to make sure his erstwhile "master" gets sent home. Add that level of Machiavellian cunning on top of the suicidal supervillainy we saw in "Requiem" and you've got a character that I could very much believe is the real Luthor, and not the whiner from the earlier seasons. I was not impressed with Lex's threat level until "Requiem" when he began to scare me. If they added a scene of him wriggling out of a deal with Darkseid (or at least calmly matching the Lord of Apokilips) and Michale Rosenbaum's character will stand with Clancy Brown and Gene Hackman's takes in my mind as legitimate, and frightening, threats to Superman.

      As a final note, it's Earth-2 Lionel who's going to be cutting the deal with Darkseid. If anyone is going to get screwed over, it will probably be him. Assuming they are going the "Darkseid resurrects Lex" route I think that there is real potential in this plot line. As long as they don't screw the pooch at the last moment

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      • #18
        Don't think they could do that, i think it would be better to make the real one die and that the clone was in some lab and woke up at some predetermined time that lex set.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by xrayvision
          I think it's very likely that the clone that Oliver blew up in the truck in Requiem could have been more than just a clone. I pointed out how an interesting connection between Requiem & Echo was the Toyman. It's possible the real Lex prior to Requiem took one of his clones from Cadmus & gave him to the Toyman so he could outfit him as a prototype cyborg. This would mean that a Cadmus Lex clone was taken and his organs were removed & replaced with robotic components. We did see a lot of wiring hooked up to that clone in Requiem. And we did see a fully functioning cyborg of the Toyman himself in Echo. Compared to the Toyman cyborg, the Lex clone in Requiem could have easily passed as an early stage cyborg.

          Besides explaining a collaboration between Lex & the Toyman, a prototypical Lex cyborg would serve multiple purposes for the real Lex Luthor. It would enable him to set up the scenario he did to split Clark & Lana up, enable him to destroy/ruin Oliver by getting him to kill enable him to convince the public that Lex Luthor was dead so nobody would look for him anymore. Any metallic components of the cyborg could have been mistaken as parts of the truck after the explosion. I think that wiring & voice modulator device attached to the Lex clone in Requiem is a big piece of evidence that the Lex in that episode was a clone turned into a cyborg.
          Mmmm too complex a theory for me. Besides why would Lex need Toyman? He was able to make Victor Stone into a cyborg before. While I've always felt that Lex was a clone, I actually don't think that it was a cyborg at all, just a deteriorating clone Lex released that was on extensive life support.

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          • #20
            The real Lex should have no connection to what happened in season 8. If he did, it would really make him look bad with the whole Clana stuff. The best solution is that after finding out about Clark in Arctic, Lex had himself cloned, because he did not know what he was getting into. That would explain why the clones would know Clarks secret. Then after Arctic, he turns up in a Russian prison like Clark did. But he is held in a cell unlike Clark, so there is no chance to escape or be seen by people. So the season 8 stuff was a clone, because only a clone, knowing he is about die, would do an act like (meaning the bomb and Lana stuff). With the clone now dead, every thinks Lex is dead, and that is why no one is looking for him. So for these three years he has been in a prison. Because if he is alive walking around invisible, or hidin out, it is just really hard to believe a powerful billionaire with knowledge of Clarks secret would just stay in the shadows. And Darkseid can just cut a deal with Linoel telling him he knows where Lex is .

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            • #21
              I also hope TPTB won't go the route of 'ressurecting' Lex by Darkseid, it would cheapen his comeback IMO. But what other purpuse could the scene between him and Lionel have? Especially Lionel doing everything to bring Lex back. I think that Lionel will have to pay his dues, not Lex, if D-seid in fact brings Lex back. What else can Darkseid do? Maybe he will be able to heal Lex, but if the real Lex was running around hidden from everyone and plotting all the time, he wouldn't be injured, would he?

              Or maybe if he used his clones to spy on everyone staying hidden from the world injured after Arctic, the scenario of healing him would fit. We can presume that Clark was in luck to escape the FOS after Arctic unharmed...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by chumchees
                The real Lex should have no connection to what happened in season 8. If he did, it would really make him look bad with the whole Clana stuff. The best solution is that after finding out about Clark in Arctic, Lex had himself cloned, because he did not know what he was getting into. That would explain why the clones would know Clarks secret. Then after Arctic, he turns up in a Russian prison like Clark did. But he is held in a cell unlike Clark, so there is no chance to escape or be seen by people. So the season 8 stuff was a clone, because only a clone, knowing he is about die, would do an act like (meaning the bomb and Lana stuff). With the clone now dead, every thinks Lex is dead, and that is why no one is looking for him. So for these three years he has been in a prison. Because if he is alive walking around invisible, or hidin out, it is just really hard to believe a powerful billionaire with knowledge of Clarks secret would just stay in the shadows. And Darkseid can just cut a deal with Linoel telling him he knows where Lex is .

                I agree that Lex being out there, and knowing Clark's secret and not taking back LuthorCorp would be moronic? But being trapped in prison? Isn't that actually weaker than what happened in "Requiem"? I mean a Lex who can't bust out of jail? That's a little sad. Once more, I think let "Requiem" Lex be the real thing. He's died and come back before in the comics without it cheapening his character; I doubt it will be any different here.

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                • #23
                  The Lex that blew up in the truck has to be a clone or cyborg of some sort it just has to be, especially since Toyman was involved it just makes sense. I do not believe it was the real Lex that 'sploded.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dr. Curt Connors
                    The Lex that blew up in the truck has to be a clone or cyborg of some sort it just has to be, especially since Toyman was involved it just makes sense. I do not believe it was the real Lex that 'sploded.
                    Why does Toyman being involved make that make sense. Lex was the mastermind, not Schott. And that Lex looks exactly like the Lex that Schott was talking to midway through the episode. Unless we've got a very elaborate deception going on here--one in which Schott intended to fool himself--that doesn't float.

                    This isn't to say that Smallville won't go the clone route. They've retconned, and cheaped out, and ignored plot holes before. But having that Lex be a fake would actually be far greater problem for the show's history--and for Lex's characterisation as Superman's Greatest Enemy--than having him die and come back would be.

                    And people: Lex losing. Not out of character. Not for Smallville's Lex, and not for Luthor as a whole. The only difference between the end of "Requiem" and your average ending before hand is that this time he didn't have his money to fall back on.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cloning Blues
                      So you want Lex to have been in hiding because of the Kandorians, and to have been inflicting some sort of damage on Clark from the shadows? Problem is there's only so many things you can retcon to having been his fault. If you make it the VRA you take away from Darkseid. If you make it the Jor-El clone's death you're really stretching the limits of his abilities. No matter what, it would be a case of Lex having done very little for two years despite knowing all about Clark and Oliver. Why do something like kill Jor-El when you can send hitmen armed with Green K after him? There has to be a reason that hasn't happened.
                      No, I don't want Lex to be in hiding because of the Kandorians. I want Lex to have seen the advantage of picking the appropriate time to strike after finding out what he did about Clark in Arctic. He knows who his enemy is & it would be most opportune for him to return at the most inopportune time for Clark while amassing power & knowledge as his weapons during his "hiatus". Having Lex be greatly involved in the VRA wouldn't take away from Darkseid. And even if it did, Lex is more important of a character than Darkseid is and will have a much bigger role in Clark's life. But rather, it would be a great idea because it would mean that while Darkseid was doing what he was doing with getting Godfrey to affect the public with his anti-hero rhetoric, Lex would be smart & evil enough to see the advantage in pulling the strings in the government and using the sentiment that Darkseid started for his own purposes in registering the heroes. The Darkseid plot of this season comes from the Legends comic mini-series. But what didn't happen in that series was a hero registration act. In that series, Darkseid wanted to turn the world against heroes. He accomplished that. But the registration act isn't something that turned the world against the heroes. It would control the heroes & keep track of them. Darkseid's choice would be to eliminate the heroes or to brand them with the omega symbol. Controlling & tracking the heroes is something Lex would want. So by this analysis, the VRA is something Darkseid would care less about since killing the heroes or having them branded with his omega symbol would be all the control he needs.

                      Another reason to have Lex be alive & behind the VRA is that Martha will have to eventually return home & end her run as a senator since Clark is supposed to be the Kent who leaves home & helps people. So if by the end of the series Martha is to return home, the best way would be for Lex to have a hand in it, which means that Lex would have to have some influence in the government. And since he's from Kansas, he could do something to force Martha out of her senate seat & take it from her as her replacement as a stepping stone to the White House.

                      And finally having Lex be behind the VRA would make his return more meaningful. If he just returns & confirmed to have really been dead all this time & not to have been involved in any of this season's or the past seasons' events, all his appearance will do is set up his future battles with Clark. If we find out that he was alive & had a huge hand in some of the events over the past few years, like making Oliver think he's crazy back in Echo, killing the Jor-El clone (if my theory is right), and the VRA, then his appearance will be much more meaningful.

                      We're going to have to agree to disagree about "Requiem". I admit that it was a bad idea, but it was one that got executed very well, and probably gave us some of the best performances from the cast. Moreover, Lex's plan in "Requiem" never came off to me as "If I can't have her, you can't either." It was more of "I'm going to hurt you. This is how." If Clark hadn't been with Lana I have no doubt he would have targeted others who were close to him. This was just a way to kill two birds with one stone.
                      I don't think anything other than the Toyman's character was executed well in Requiem. As for Lex's plan, everything you said could be accomplished by using a cyborg with a bomb planted inside it (making the explosive toy monkey Oliver planted redundant since the Lex cyborg would blow anyway). It would be a typical Lex Luthor maneuver to have a cyborg take the hit while striking at Clark & Lana to hurt them. It wouldn't be a Lex Luthor maneuver to leave himself unguarded if he was in such bad condition just to strike at Clark & Lana and die doing it.

                      And Lex has done things like prioritise revenge over reason in both the comics and various other adaptations. In the DCAU he attempted to punch Darkseid in the face when the latter destroyed Brainiac. In the story we've been discussing, Lex after ending up in a vegetative state, used Superman's Kryptonian battlesuit to go on a rampage through downtown Metropolis that ended with his near death and imprisonment. And in fact, the only thing Lex miscalculated in "Requiem" was Toyman's ability to keep Oliver occupied. Clark certainly wouldn't have killed him, and even Lana was past that at this point. If Winslow had just stabbed Oliver (or even kept him busy a few minutes longer) Lex might well have lived to see his revenge and then gone to the hospital. That said, I'm not sure he cared at that point, much like the degenerating Lex in the comics.
                      But the bottom line is the end result. Though those actions could have gotten Lex from the comics killed, they didn't. In Smallville if that turns out to have been the real Lex, then his actions did end with his death. It's one thing to have him do something & nearly get killed for it and another for him to actually die.

                      Also, if Lex wasn't dying, what was the point of the clones? We've been told they were intended to heal him. If he wasn't a wreck like the one we saw in "Requiem" what's the point?
                      The point of the clones would be replacement parts for himself if/when needed and also bodies to create Lex cyborgs from. The clones themselves could also be used as decoys. And if the real Lex didn't die, then you have the answer to your question right there.

                      I do share your concern about Lex becoming Darkseid's puppet. I really do. And if this were an early season, I'd be doubly worried because knowing Smallville, they'd drag it out over the next season. But this season is the last one. It will end with Darkseid getting sent home, meaning Lex is free of debt to him. Under those circumstances I could see it being handled well. In fact, here's a good scenario: Darkseid brings Lex back and demands he help him take down Clark/The Blur. Lex agrees, and sets up the conflict, hoping Darkseid will kill Clark, all while taking measures to make sure his erstwhile "master" gets sent home. Add that level of Machiavellian cunning on top of the suicidal supervillainy we saw in "Requiem" and you've got a character that I could very much believe is the real Luthor, and not the whiner from the earlier seasons. I was not impressed with Lex's threat level until "Requiem" when he began to scare me. If they added a scene of him wriggling out of a deal with Darkseid (or at least calmly matching the Lord of Apokilips) and Michale Rosenbaum's character will stand with Clancy Brown and Gene Hackman's takes in my mind as legitimate, and frightening, threats to Superman.
                      Well, this being the last season makes a huge problem for me, because Lex's return thanks to Darkseid will be one of the final things we remember from this show. It will send us the message that without Darkseid, Superman's greatest villain wouldn't have even been around when he finally became Superman. I also disagree about maneuvering out of a deal with Darkseid. Though it would show a degree of cunning, it would be so much more meaningful and characteristic of Lex Luthor never to have needed Darkseid to fix something that someone else (Oliver) did to him. If Lex was dying as a result of his own actions like he was in the comics after having his brain transplanted into his new cloned body and needed Darkseid's help to stay alive and then used his Machiavellian tactics to get rid of Darkseid, then I would be in favor of that. But if it's confirmed that the real Lex was indeed killed by Oliver & he needed Darkseid's help for something that should have never happened to him, that's something I don't like.

                      As a final note, it's Earth-2 Lionel who's going to be cutting the deal with Darkseid. If anyone is going to get screwed over, it will probably be him. Assuming they are going the "Darkseid resurrects Lex" route I think that there is real potential in this plot line. As long as they don't screw the pooch at the last moment
                      Still, it just sends home the message that everything would be outside Lex's control, and that's something that shouldn't happen. Lex shouldn't need the "generosity" of others to ensure his future existence. That's just an insult to the character. If Lex needs to make a deal to keep himself alive, it should be solely a result of his own madness & tactics that lands him in that spot and he should be the one with the control of his own destiny. With Neron in the comics, it was Lex who landed himself in that spot where he had to make the deal and it was Lex who did make the deal. Here it would be Oliver who would have landed him in that spot while Lionel made the deal. A double whammy.

                      ----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

                      Originally posted by MrZeppo
                      Mmmm too complex a theory for me. Besides why would Lex need Toyman? He was able to make Victor Stone into a cyborg before. While I've always felt that Lex was a clone, I actually don't think that it was a cyborg at all, just a deteriorating clone Lex released that was on extensive life support.
                      Well, I'm talking about an actual cyborg here. Even though Victor uses the name Cyborg, he's actually a bionic human. An actual cyborg would have a processor for a mind with living skin like the Terminator. That's pretty much what we saw of Toyman in Echo. We saw a cyborg of Toyman who looked exactly like a human but was a machine covered with real skin. In my opinion, that had to come from somewhere. Toyman would need the funds to build one and Lex had the funds. It would make sense if the Lex we saw was an earlier prototype model cyborg (since he had wires & things connected to his mouth) of the more realistic Toyman cyborg that we saw in Echo.
                      Last edited by xrayvision; 04-17-2011, 05:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by chumchees
                        The real Lex should have no connection to what happened in season 8. If he did, it would really make him look bad with the whole Clana stuff. The best solution is that after finding out about Clark in Arctic, Lex had himself cloned, because he did not know what he was getting into. That would explain why the clones would know Clarks secret. Then after Arctic, he turns up in a Russian prison like Clark did. But he is held in a cell unlike Clark, so there is no chance to escape or be seen by people. So the season 8 stuff was a clone, because only a clone, knowing he is about die, would do an act like (meaning the bomb and Lana stuff).
                        This is exactly what I said. His actions mirrored that of the older Lex clone seen in Lazarus who also knew he was going to die & had nothing to lose.

                        With the clone now dead, every thinks Lex is dead, and that is why no one is looking for him. So for these three years he has been in a prison. Because if he is alive walking around invisible, or hidin out, it is just really hard to believe a powerful billionaire with knowledge of Clarks secret would just stay in the shadows. And Darkseid can just cut a deal with Linoel telling him he knows where Lex is .
                        This is where I disagree. I wouldn't want the real Lex imprisoned for 3 years either. I do think that 3 years is a long time, but it's not like he wouldn't be doing anything and would totally be in the shadows. By explaining the he wasn't in jail but while going behind the scenes was involved in the VRA law that happened, behind the death of the Jor-El clone (where he was working with Brainiac who was released by the orb & took the form of Alia since both would have wanted to get rid of the Kandorians---I have a whole theory about this), and other things like driving Oliver to the point of suicide, Lex would have been staying hidden while influencing events and learning the secrets of his enemies through invisibility technology and the secrets of the afterlife through the use of a modified version of the death serum in Void. Then when Clark is at his most distracted point while he's just about ready to deal with Darkseid, BANG, Lex shows up at the worst possible time for Clark.

                        ----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

                        Originally posted by Cloning Blues
                        I agree that Lex being out there, and knowing Clark's secret and not taking back LuthorCorp would be moronic? But being trapped in prison? Isn't that actually weaker than what happened in "Requiem"? I mean a Lex who can't bust out of jail? That's a little sad. Once more, I think let "Requiem" Lex be the real thing. He's died and come back before in the comics without it cheapening his character; I doubt it will be any different here.
                        It would not be moronic if he has had a hand in several things that happened. And if the writers are smart, Lex won't take back Luthorcorp, but will destroy it & build Lexcorp over the remains of Luthorcorp. That's what I want to happen---Lex taking the very thing Lionel created & murdered his own parents for and reducing it to a pile of rubble while Tess or another enemy is inside only to build his own legacy (Lexcorp) over it.

                        ----- Added 7 Minutes later -----

                        Originally posted by Dr. Curt Connors
                        The Lex that blew up in the truck has to be a clone or cyborg of some sort it just has to be, especially since Toyman was involved it just makes sense. I do not believe it was the real Lex that 'sploded.
                        That's what I was hoping for, but the ending of Scion has me thinking otherwise. Unless they ignore that ending or seriously throw a twist to change things around (like having the real Lex not be the one in season 8 & Chloe replacing the clone Lex's remains with Jimmy's after wearing the Fate helmet so Darkseid resurrects Jimmy instead), I'm pretty sure they will confirm that the real Lex did die and make a total mockery of him.

                        ----- Added 25 Minutes later -----

                        Originally posted by Cloning Blues
                        Why does Toyman being involved make that make sense. Lex was the mastermind, not Schott. And that Lex looks exactly like the Lex that Schott was talking to midway through the episode. Unless we've got a very elaborate deception going on here--one in which Schott intended to fool himself--that doesn't float.
                        How does Toyman being involved make him the mastermind? He could have been involved under the directions of Lex. It makes sense because Schott had a clone of himself in Echo. Where did he get the funding to make it? Schott being a connection between the episodes Requiem & Echo makes sense. It would mean that Lex paid Schott to make a Lex cyborg for him using the bodies of one of his Cadmus clones to house the machinery of the cyborg so that the cyborg would be the puppet of the real Lex & a pawn in his attack on Clark & Lana. The Lex in Requiem had wires & tubes coming out of him. He could have been made to look like a disabled Lex when he was actually an unfinished prototype cyborg. Then by the time Echo happened, Winslow Schott was able to make a finished product which was the cyborg of himself after getting funding from Lex for making the Lex cyborg that was used to not only split Clark & Lana up but also used to screw with Oliver's mind & throw a major rift in the Justice League as seen in Doomsday. That definitely floats.

                        This isn't to say that Smallville won't go the clone route. They've retconned, and cheaped out, and ignored plot holes before. But having that Lex be a fake would actually be far greater problem for the show's history--and for Lex's characterisation as Superman's Greatest Enemy--than having him die and come back would be.
                        Except this wouldn't be a retcon that wouldn't make sense. In fact, it may not be a retcon at all. In Echo, we saw an image of Lex in the glass door on the roof of the Ace of Clubs. The Lex there flinched when Oliver threw the glass of wine at him. If he was just a figment of Oliver's imagination, he wouldn't have flinched. But if that was the real Lex using the technology his own scientists developed & used on Wes Keenan, then it would make sense why Lex flinched. And it would be a sign that the real Lex was never dead. So if this is the case, then it's not a retcon. But even if that Lex in Echo wasn't the real Lex and it is a retcon, it's not like it's one that won't work without creating plotholes or inconsistencies. This would be anything but a cheapening out. What would be cheapening is if the real Lex is confirmed to have died, which would permanently cheapen the meaning of the most important villain on this show. And as I said before, I'm 100% positive this is what will happen given the dumb ideas & screwups of the past.

                        And people: Lex losing. Not out of character. Not for Smallville's Lex, and not for Luthor as a whole. The only difference between the end of "Requiem" and your average ending before hand is that this time he didn't have his money to fall back on.
                        I agree it's not. But Lex losing is 1 thing. But Lex losing his life is beyond Lex losing. The show needs to end with Lex on a very strong note. He needs to oust Oliver, Tess, and every other character who doesn't belong from Smallville & Metropolis because this story should be between Clark & Lex. Oliver absolutely needs to be sacrificed (i.e. lose & walk away with his tail between his legs) since he never belonged on this show and has no business ever getting the upper hand especially in the long term like he did so many times since season 6 over Clark's #1 enemy. That triumph of Oliver's over Lex needs to end & reverse itself in the final episode and Lex being revealed to have never been killed by Oliver must happen for that to happen.
                        Last edited by xrayvision; 04-17-2011, 06:01 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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                        • #27
                          Here's my theory (I mentioned it in other thread but it wasn't picked up)...

                          Real Lex did died in season 8. It's just not believable that someone like him would be just hiding and doing nothing for three years knowing what he knows about Clark and seeking for revenge. However, he will not be resurrected either.
                          Lex reappearance could include time travel. Darkseid could bring him from the past, from the moment in time just a split second before the truck explosion. Also he will be cured by Darkseid of course. This way we could say he didn't really died (though it seemed that way), but the time line since season 8 wouldn't be affected.

                          What do you think?

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                          • #28
                            Why not? In the comics Lex died twice. When he couldn't take off the Kryptonite ring he had to remove his brain and transplant it into a clone, then the clone started to degrade and he made a deal with the second ruler of hell to restore it. All Lex has to do is find out the Anti Life equation and he has leverage over Uxas.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by i_need_a_new_username
                              Why not? In the comics Lex died twice. When he couldn't take off the Kryptonite ring he had to remove his brain and transplant it into a clone, then the clone started to degrade and he made a deal with the second ruler of hell to restore it. All Lex has to do is find out the Anti Life equation and he has leverage over Uxas.
                              Well, he died once in the comics when Lex himself killed his own original body after transplanting his brain into a cloned body. When his new cloned body began to deteriorate, he made a deal with Neron to cure him before he died & sold his soul to him. And when he had to transplant his brain into his cloned body, that was also because of Lex & his evil nature of wearing that kryptonite ring for so long.

                              The thing is, in the comics, it was all Lex's doing that put him in the position to need to make the deal & put him in the position to have to clone a new body & transplant his brain in it. In Smallville, this is not the case if the real Lex is confirmed to have died in Requiem. In Smallville it's because of Oliver blowing him up that he would need to be brought back to life. In the comics, his life never really ended. It got a new "packaging" when he inhabited a cloned body, but his existence never ceased in the main timeline (not counting one shots/elseworlds). That's what I have a huge problem with if the real Lex is confirmed to have died. It also makes his return less significant because he would not have had a single effect on the events of this season, whereas if he was alive & planting the seeds of his return & rise to the presidency by being involved in the background with things like the VRA, then his return means that he won't only have an influence in the final episode of the show, but over the course of the entire season or past seasons, like the Jor-El clone's death in Kandor.

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                              • #30
                                Ah yeah. I just sort of accpeted he died, even though I believed he was Bloodline's "X" and the person who killed Jor-El.

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