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SV = Strong Women, Weak Men

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Clana4Life
    I'm happy with the writing for the women. The writing for the men needs to reach the same level. I would never want them to weaken the women in an effort to strengthen Clark or Oliver, that just brings the entire show down, so I for one am not advocating that.
    That's great. I don't believe I ever implied that's what you were advocating.

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    • #32
      MOD EDIT

      its not even about strong women only, its about everyone male or female being written as some what more tougher, wiser and better than clark. Strong women martha/lois/chloe stood out in this one episode and other episodes. MOD EDIT since s6 how ollie has been written more heroic than clark, but now he is just worse than clark really,MOD EDIT
      "its just a clark is the lead and our hero, lets see that", ...thing.
      Last edited by Vergon6; 02-12-2011, 05:18 PM. Reason: Violation of Rule #10-fan-on-fan talk, telling another board member to 'chill'

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Clana4Life
        I actually meant last week when strong women had to step in and save Clark and this week when his own mother professed how much he needed Chloe to watch over him.
        I thought Martha was speaking more retrospectively, but I'd have to rewatch to be sure.

        Last week was not a favorite of mine, but neither Lois nor Chloe were capable of saving Clark in Collateral. The final message of the episode was that Clark had to trust himself in order to escape the virtual reality. Chloe, because of her inside knowledge, and Lois because of her blind faith, had an advantage over Clark. However, like one of the messages of The Matrix, one message from Collateral was "Know Thyself." In addition, just like The Matrix, people could show Clark the door, but it was up to him to walk through it.

        The ability to "walk through the door" wasn't something that was an intellectual or physical exercise, but rather a spiritual and emotional one. There is no handbook, and thus no possible way that Lois or Chloe could have given Clark what he needed. He needed to know himself. Thus, what he needed was inside of him all along.
        Last edited by ginevrakent; 02-11-2011, 08:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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        • #34
          Originally posted by BlueRanger;7100049[B
          MOD EDIT[/B]

          its not even about strong women only, its about everyone male or female being written as some what more tougher, wiser and better than clark. Strong women martha/lois/chloe stood out in this one episode and other episodes. MOD EDIT since s6 how ollie has been written more heroic than clark, but now he is just worse than clark really,MOD EDIT
          "its just a clark is the lead and our hero, lets see that", ...thing.
          This pretty much sums up my issues as of late. Clark is the lead and hero and I would just like to see him a little more self-sufficient - like the women are. I just don't like the idea of Clark being so dependent, so in need of constant guidance & reassurance at this point in the game. It doesn't strike me as in keeping with the comics or movies. The only character I feel is written more poorly than Clark is Oliver.
          Last edited by Vergon6; 02-12-2011, 05:25 PM. Reason: Quoted post edited

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          • #35
            MOD EDIT

            In Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, for example, Clark despairs that he couldn't do enough to save people, and wonders if Superman is really worthwhile. Lois reminds him that it's not what Superman does, but the *idea* of Superman which matters most.
            one of my favorite scenes
            Last edited by Vergon6; 02-12-2011, 05:24 PM. Reason: Quoted post removed

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            • #36
              Originally posted by BlueRanger
              chill chill, nobody is blaming the strong women for men being written as weak.

              its not even about strong women only, its about everyone male or female being written as some what more tougher, wiser and better than clark.
              In my opinion, any comparison between women vs. men is criticizing women by default. If I am going to criticize how the men on Smallville are written, all I need to do is focus on the men. By bringing women into the discussion at all, it forces a comparison that implies strong women make the men on the show appear "less than" their female counterparts. In short, how the women of Smallville are written should have nothing to do with how the men of Smallville are written and vice versa.

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              • #37
                Lois' SUPPORT does NOT make Clark look weak, imho.

                But the way he had to defer to Lana and Chloe all the years PRIOR to this one... then that was a problem.

                I think Clark has been his STRONGEST since Homecoming

                Minus a few hiccups here and there... but NOTHING compared to seasons 5-8.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Clana4Life
                  This pretty much sums up my issues as of late. Clark is the lead and hero and I would just like to see him a little more self-sufficient - like the women are. I just don't like the idea of Clark being so dependent, so in need of constant guidance & reassurance at this point in the game. It doesn't strike me as in keeping with the comics or movies. The only character I feel is written more poorly than Clark is Oliver.
                  Superman in the comics seeks reassurance and advice often; especially from his wife, Lois, as seen here. I thought Clark looked plenty self-sufficient in this episode. While Lois and Chloe were off gathering evidence of support for the Blur, Clark was off gathering evidence to find out who had attacked his mother.

                  Furthermore, Lois may have been upbeat about the public in this episode, but she was very discouraged and in need of inspiration in other areas of her life. She didn't feel good enough for Martha, so she tried to impress her. She worried about being able to ever make an impact as a reporter, and found inspiration and encouragement in Martha and Perry; she even credits both at the end of the episode.

                  In short, Lois was depicted as needing reassurance and guidance as well, and Clark was depicted as independently following a line of investigation and continuing to save people in spite of his assumption that the public didn't believe in him enough.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BlueRanger
                    ...its not even about strong women only, its about everyone male or female being written as some what more tougher, wiser and better than clark. Strong women martha/lois/chloe stood out in this one episode and other episodes. People have complained numerous times since s6 how ollie has been written more heroic than clark, but now he is just worse than clark really, so the complains have ceized for now.
                    THIS!

                    Clark should NOT be written as less capable than anyone on the show... It just shouldn't be that way... the show is ABOUT him!! Well, it should be...

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                    • #40
                      MOD EDIT

                      Originally posted by luckycloisfan
                      Clark should NOT be written as less capable than anyone on the show... It just shouldn't be that way... the show is ABOUT him!! Well, it should be...
                      Hold on, I love Clark and I want to see him shine as much as the next person. However, he doesn't need to be written as more capable than everyone in order to shine. Clark shines by showing off his unique strengths not because everyone else looks weak and dull in comparison.
                      Last edited by Vergon6; 02-12-2011, 05:13 PM. Reason: Violation of Rule #10, 13-psychoanalyzing, fan-on-fan-talk

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                      • #41
                        Clark was at his worst in Seasons 5-7. Lex was also not the famous villain he is supposed to be because fooling Lana was the first truly bad thing he did. 33.1 should've been number 1! Lame. Clark grew up in S8, and grew up more in S9. SV loves drama, so AI Jor-El breaking Clark's spirit is very much SV. I never liked SV's version of Jor-El. Jonathan and Lionel were very strong men. Clark was awesome in Season 8(I ignore the Clana arc) and 9, and his leadership skills are coming back in S10. Lana was always the ultimate victim on SV.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ginevrakent
                          In my opinion, any comparison between women vs. men is criticizing women by default. If I am going to criticize how the men on Smallville are written, all I need to do is focus on the men. By bringing women into the discussion at all, it forces a comparison that implies strong women make the men on the show appear "less than" their female counterparts. In short, how the women of Smallville are written should have nothing to do with how the men of Smallville are written and vice versa.
                          I agree. But to me, the thread title isn't about the men being written weak because of the women. It's instead about the preferences of the person running the CW network. And that's what I think the original poster was referring to. I'm all for strong female characters. But given who's running this network regarding Smallville, it doesn't only want strong women, but weak men at the same time. This was apparent to me as soon as the CW took control in season 6 when Lana Lang went from a character that Clark & Lex were just fighting over to a character who made both look beyond pathetic. My honest opinion is that some of the writing that leads to strong female characters and the writing that causes weak male characters are not mutually exclusive given what I've witnessed over the years. I think regarding Tess, yes because she is strong for reasons unrelated to any male character. But I think other characters like Chloe and even Lois at times get written to be strong because the heroes they're associated with are seen acting subpar when compared to their comics counterparts. And I think part of it has to do with shipper appeasement and it's obvious to me there's a level of dependence they want the male characters to have on the female characters. I have no doubts about that. Since Chloe was retconned to be a hacker as of Arrival/Mortal, Clark was dependent on her. And this season, rather than finding his own way to becoming Superman, they're having Clark depend on Lois (& even others like Brainiac 5) to getting that process done.

                          What they're not doing this season that I would love them to do is give Lois her own independent plots and show her investigating things, writing articles, and actually show her finish her journey becoming the world class reporter. Where has Lois been lately? We've seen her a great deal at Watchtower, the farm, and everywhere but on the streets searching for a story. We saw her pulled into the VRA storyline rather than her & Clark making sure there is no apparent connection between them so that Lois & Clark can each tackle different aspects of the VRA plot (Lois the investigative part & Clark the hero & other investigative parts). Lois has been out of her classic element--reporting--a great deal this season (as far as screen time goes). By not giving her a plot of her own or her own independent role in Clark's plot that fits into the classic role Lois takes, the end result has often been her holding Clark's hand or doing things he should be doing---like being the beacon (or beacon middleman) in this episode.

                          I thought they did a great job with Lois last season and a much better job with Clark. But since then, they both seem less like who they're supposed to be. And Clark has looked very weak over the last 2 episodes. The last time Clark looked very strong was in Ambush, where it came at the expense of Lois, who looked weak. So maybe other than Lazarus, this show has not demonstrated to me this season that they could write both characters strong without coming at the expense of the other. And the same would go for Chloe & Oliver. And between those 2, Chloe feeds off Oliver's character as she used to feed off Clark.

                          Even Martha has been feeding off Clark's character ever since Hostage where the Lana-ization of her began with the beginning of her "needing to protect Clark" mentality. And I hate that, because the line's supposed to be drawn at Clark's parents since they made him who he is.
                          Last edited by xrayvision; 02-11-2011, 09:02 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by HopeforTomorrow
                            It's not scapegoating. The facts and the evidence have been clear on this show, mainly since Season 5 IMO. Just look at Jimmy for example - he was fine and written alright when he was helping Clark, but when he's around Chloe, he becomes an insecure manslave. If you haven't noticed this over the years, then I just don't know what to tell you. I'd also remind you that you should stop with the scapegoating accusations and challenging others opinions if they just happen to rub you the wrong way. If you don't agree with them, ignore them. Simple and easy.
                            I'm not disagreeing with the criticism. I think the criticism is valid. Where you and I disagree is on where the focus of the criticism belongs. I don't like women being used as explanations for male weakness. It does rub me the wrong way because I believe men and women can both shine together. Writing male characters better is my preferred rallying cry.

                            Anyway, I agree that male characters on this show have often been written as insecure, but I personally prefer to focus on just asking for the men to written better. I don't need to bring women into the conversation at all. But, hey, that's just me. You don't have to agree with me. Agree to disagree?

                            ----- Added 15 Minutes later -----

                            Originally posted by xrayvision
                            I agree. But to me, the thread title isn't about the men being written weak because of the women. It's instead about the preferences of the person running the CW network.
                            I understand the thread title didn't bring up this issue. I was responding to something else in my initial comment. Also, I don't understand how you can say it isn't about the men being written weak because of women when you specifically suggest the CW network's focus on writing strong women is correlated to the weak writing for men.

                            And that's what I think the original poster was referring to. I'm all for strong female characters. But given who's running this network regarding Smallville, it doesn't only want strong women, but weak men at the same time.
                            If that's true, then I believe it's more important to advocate for strong writing for men without any reference to the way women are written. YMMV.

                            My honest opinion is that some of the writing that leads to strong female characters and the writing that causes weak male characters are not mutually exclusive given what I've witnessed over the years.
                            Okay, but now I don't understand your previous statement, "the thread title isn't about the men being written weak because of the women."

                            What they're not doing this season that I would love them to do is give Lois her own independent plots and show her investigating things, writing articles, and actually show her finish her journey becoming the world class reporter. Where has Lois been lately?
                            Um, well, this episode opened with Lois discussing an article she had been working on. This episode also referenced Lois writing multiple articles in support of the repeal of the VRA. It even showed her being inspired by Perry White's renegade journalism style. Lois has been struggling as a reporter for the same reason Clark's been struggling as a hero. Both Lois and Clark, in this episode, were struggling with feeling powerless against opposition. Clark inspired Lois to support heroes and the repeal of the VRA, Lois then looked to Martha and Perry for inspiration for how to support heroes, and the circle completed itself by showing ordinary people inspiring Clark to keep hope alive.

                            The last time Clark looked very strong was in Ambush, where it came at the expense of Lois, who looked weak.
                            Lois didn't look weak in Ambush. In the end, she stood up to her sister and her father. I definitely would never say Clark strength in that episode was at Lois' expense. I absolutely loathe the idea that a man or a woman can't have a moment of strength or weakness without the person of the opposite sex looking strong or weak by default. Also, I thought Clark looked strong in Abandoned, Patriot, and Icarus. In all three episodes, Clark was a moral and strategic leader of his team. Everyone looked to him for guidance and reassurance. Furthermore, if the nature of a woman supporting a man is so detrimental to a man's strength, I have to wonder why Clark wouldn't have been perceived as strong in Luthor. Did Clark not encourage a woman, Tess, in that episode? Does not Clark, by this logic, look like a strong man?
                            Last edited by ginevrakent; 02-11-2011, 09:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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                            • #44
                              Its been my opinion for a very long time now, and it continues to be my opinion now, that the writers for this show are just flat-out more interested in writing for the female characters over the male characters, to include (and maybe especially) their main character. It didn't originate in S10, but its a freaking crime that it continues into SV's final season. I think, right now, the writers are far more interested in writing Lois then Clark. I think they're more interested in writing Chloe then Oliver. Its obvious they like writing for Tess all season. And Martha was also written strong.

                              And its not an opinon that the CW as a network is geared towards females, as its something they loudly proclaim constantly. Is this writing network dictated? Maybe, I couldn't say. But do I think that a problem exists with the writing for this show. Oh, you bet!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by BadToad
                                Its been my opinion for a very long time now, and it continues to be my opinion now, that the writers for this show are just flat-out more interested in writing for the female characters over the male characters, to include (and maybe especially) their main character. It didn't originate in S10, but its a freaking crime that it continues into SV's final season. I think, right now, the writers are far more interested in writing Lois then Clark. I think they're more interested in writing Chloe then Oliver. Its obvious they like writing for Tess all season. And Martha was also written strong.

                                And its not an opinon that the CW as a network is geared towards females, as its something they loudly proclaim constantly. Is this writing network dictated? Maybe, I couldn't say. But do I think that a problem exists with the writing for this show. Oh, you bet!
                                I agree with all of this. I believe the CW is geared towards women, so there likely is an impetus to write plots where female characters often shine and are often written strongly. I would love if there was more of a balance, because I believe strong characters of both genders can co-exist.

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