Why was Lois put into the virtual world?

[abbaspice1]

I guess to me he was in control.

Lois didn't get them off that roof.

The FakeChloe and Lois talking to me was all about voicing Clark's internal monologue. FakeChloe was voicing every insecurity - the devil on his shoulder so to speak, while Lois was voicing what the angel on the shoulder, for lack of a better term.

Lois could give him all the pep talks in the world, but the truth of the matter is, it wouldn't have mattered if Clark didn't truly believe that world was fake AND then take action.

He was heroic, he saved both Lois and himself. He's the one who took the leap of faith. Lois could talk until she's blue in the face, it would mean nothing if Clark didn't take action himself.

Stated perfectly!

[~*Lois & Clark Fan*~]

I guess to me he was in control.

Lois didn't get them off that roof.

The FakeChloe and Lois talking to me was all about voicing Clark's internal monologue. FakeChloe was voicing every insecurity - the devil on his shoulder so to speak, while Lois was voicing what the angel on the shoulder, for lack of a better term.

Lois could give him all the pep talks in the world, but the truth of the matter is, it wouldn't have mattered if Clark didn't truly believe that world was fake AND then take action.

He was heroic, he saved both Lois and himself. He's the one who took the leap of faith. Lois could talk until she's blue in the face, it would mean nothing if Clark didn't take action himself.

QFT

[HopeforTomorrow]

I guess to me he was in control.

Lois didn't get them off that roof.

The FakeChloe and Lois talking to me was all about voicing Clark's internal monologue. FakeChloe was voicing every insecurity - the devil on his shoulder so to speak, while Lois was voicing what the angel on the shoulder, for lack of a better term.

Lois could give him all the pep talks in the world, but the truth of the matter is, it wouldn't have mattered if Clark didn't truly believe that world was fake AND then take action.

He was heroic, he saved both Lois and himself. He's the one who took the leap of faith. Lois could talk until she's blue in the face, it would mean nothing if Clark didn't take action himself.

After watching the episode again, I noticed that Lois seemed unphased and seemed to have an understanding of what was going on in that VR as opposed to Clark. Did she know something that Clark didn't? It took him nearly the entire episode, as well as persistent convincing from Lois, for him to realize what Lois already seemed to know near the beginning before he was able to collect himself and get him and Lois out of there.

I definitely don't agree that Clark was in control since he had to be pushed by Lois repeatedly into having belief and faith. That should've already been instilled in Clark starting with his parental foundation (Martha/Jonathan) as well as through his previous experiences (like Homecoming for example), and to me, that's character regression. Lois was written to be very strong, understanding, and reassuring in comparison to Clark's VERY poor, weak characterization. JMO

[ginevrakent]

After watching the episode again, I noticed that Lois seemed unphased and seemed to have an understanding of what was going on in that VR as opposed to Clark. Did she know something that Clark didn't?

Chloe apparently spent more time explaining to Lois what was going on in the VR than she did explaining it to Clark in her haste to jump off the roof with Oliver. Also, Lois wasn't phased and seemed to understand what was going on better because she was more easily able to trust Chloe. Lois just unconditionally loves and supports Chloe. She cannot comprehend Chloe as being anything other than her perfect baby cousin. She had faith in Chloe, in other words, Clark didn't.

It took him nearly the entire episode, as well as persistent convincing from Lois, for him to realize what Lois already seemed to know near the beginning before he was able to collect himself and get him and Lois out of there.

Yes, well, that's because Lois has more faith in Chloe than Clark does.

I definitely don't agree that Clark was in control since he had to be pushed by Lois repeatedly into having belief and faith.

You do understand that no one can push someone into having faith, right? I mean, that was an idea that was literally spelled out at least twice in the episode.

That should've already been instilled in Clark starting with his parental foundation (Martha/Jonathan) as well as through his previous experiences (like Homecoming for example), and to me, that's character regression. Lois was written to be very strong, understanding, and reassuring in comparison to Clark's VERY poor, weak characterization. JMO

Wait, when did Martha and Jonathan or Homecoming ever address Clark's lack of faith in himself in any sort of definitive way? Homecoming was specifically presented as a lesson Clark would have to apply anew every single day of his life, which means there are going to be times when Clark will struggle. More importantly, Clark's lack of faith was directly tied to his doubts about Chloe. Even though Clark's heart said to trust Chloe, his head was telling him to ask questions like: How can I trust her when I don't know why she left? How can I take a leap of faith with someone who I believe is going down a different path than one I would take for myself? What if Chloe's path is the path to hell albeit paved with good intentions like what happened with Davis?

In short, Clark's previous experiences were the cause of his lack of faith. Lois believed in Chloe when Clark could not because Lois doesn't share the same history with Chloe that Clark shares; her perception of who Chloe is quite different from Clark's, in my opinion.

[HopeforTomorrow]

Chloe apparently spent more time explaining to Lois what was going on in the VR than she did explaining it to Clark in her haste to jump off the roof with Oliver. Also, Lois wasn't phased and seemed to understand what was going on better because she was more easily able to trust Chloe. Lois just unconditionally loves and supports Chloe. She cannot comprehend Chloe as being anything other than her perfect baby cousin. She had faith in Chloe, in other words, Clark didn't.

Was this Chloe/Lois interaction offscreen, because I don't remember that part.

You do understand that no one can push someone into having faith, right? I mean, that was an idea that was literally spelled out at least twice in the episode.

So, someone (Lois) can't help (or push) someone else (Clark) to have a belief or faith in himself? Not that I agree with how this episode was handled, but then how are people influenced into having beliefs or faith? Does belief and faith just turn on automatically inside oneself without any outside influences (something that Clark had before ever meeting Lois)?

More importantly, Clark's lack of faith was directly tied to his doubts about Chloe. Even though Clark's heart said to trust Chloe, his head was telling him to ask questions like: How can I trust her when I don't know why she left? How can I take a leap of faith with someone who I believe is going down a different path than one I would take for myself? What if Chloe's path is the path to hell albeit paved with good intentions like what happened with Davis?

Ah, so basically Clark was rendered useless throughout the episode because of his lack in trust of Chloe. Great, what a wonderful way to tell a story about Clark Kent where an episode is conveniently written to all but take him out and prevent him from having barely (if any) any impact or character progression. So, just like in Lazarus how Clark's actions were used against him to "propel" this season, Chloe and his lack in trust in her was brought back in this episode to further stunt his progression. These writers are clearly showing their desperation.

In short, Clark's previous experiences were the cause of his lack of faith. Lois believed in Chloe when Clark could not because Lois doesn't share the same history with Chloe that Clark shares; her perception of who Chloe is quite different from Clark's, in my opinion.

That makes sense.

[Dyanara]

Not even that. Its how they use her. They put her where she doesn't quite belong. The government could have had her discarded after the funeral so she could hook up with Tess and Emil to derail the VRA people. Inside the virtual reality they should have shown the JLA kicking fake ass regardless of repercussions. Its just mismanaged and it shows a lack of understanding of Clark's strengths and relationships outside of her. I would have liked to see more Clark and Dinah looking after Ollie as well.

True, she wasn't needed in the virtual reality. She should have been running around outside causing havoc for the VRA. Maybe she could have been there with Chloe to help try to bring them out of the virtual reality. I had a similar feeling about how Lois was used in Luthor, she served a purpose on Earth 2 but on our Earth the only purpose she served was to get thrown around by fake Clark, use her oh so ever present love to tell the others that the real Clark was back and cheerlead the real Clark at the end of the episode.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

And Clark was definitely not in control, this is the person who had to be convinced by Lois that this wasn't PTSD. Then Lois had to be his life coach on the roof because fake Chloe was feeding him lines about his not being ordinary which he should have gotten over years ago!

[ginevrakent]

True, she wasn't needed in the virtual reality. She should have been running around outside causing havoc for the VRA.

Um, this exactly the reason why the VRA would have wanted to put Lois into the virtual reality with Clark. Because Lois Lane on the loose would have been a massive pain in the ass.

[Alicia Chipy]

Um, this exactly the reason why the VRA would have wanted to put Lois into the virtual reality with Clark. Because Lois Lane on the loose would have been a massive pain in the ass.

QFT

[ginevrakent]

Was this Chloe/Lois interaction offscreen, because I don't remember that part.

It was offscreen, but Lois mentioned it. Anyway, the point is: it's in character for Lois to be loyal to Chloe beyond reason.

So, someone (Lois) can't help (or push) someone else (Clark) to have a belief or faith in himself? Not that I agree with how this episode was handled, but then how are people influenced into having beliefs or faith? Does belief and faith just turn on automatically inside oneself without any outside influences (something that Clark had before ever meeting Lois)?

Yes, that's how faith works. I've seen people choose faith based on almost no outside influence because something just "clicks" for them. I've never seen anyone choose faith because someone pushes them into it. Faith is a choice and no one can make a choice for you except you.

I'm a member of a church that does extensive missionary work, for example. When members of the church return from a successful missionary trip, they don't praise themselves for their success, they praise God for stirring the hearts of those who have chosen faith. On a personal level, my religious background teaches me that no one can save me, I have to save myself through faith. It doesn't matter if I was raised in a Christian home or attended church, vacation bible school, and youth group. If I didn't exert my own will to say a prayer for my own soul because I wanted to be saved, I wouldn't have faith.

It also helps me to frame this issue by examining something close to a reverse situation. Genesis tells the Biblical story of Adam and Eve and their fall from grace. Eve, in the story, commits the first act of sin by disobeying the will of God when she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge Satan dared her to eat. If Satan, who was the one who is said to have persuaded Eve to eat the fruit, was truly the one responsible for Eve's choice, then Eve and eventually Adam committed no act of sin at all. Yet, that's not what happened, according to the story. Adam and Eve sinned against God because they made the choice to eat the fruit. To apply this idea to something perhaps more relatable, Lionel may have heavily influenced Lex's descent into villainy, but ultimately Lex made the choices that moved him closer to his dark destiny.

If you take religion out of the equation, the same principle applies. One cannot be compelled to choose faith from the result of outside influences. Faith is only a choice the heart can make for itself. If faith was a simple matter of saying a few magic words or incessant persistence on the part of the already faithful, then it could be said all those who are exposed to this miracle combination of influences, would be saved. This isn't the case, however, since everyone who chooses faith does so because something has to happen inside of them first for the lightbulb to go off.

Chloe makes a similar point in the episode, when she said, "I can't make Clark believe in me." It's true, at least I believe it's true. You can't force anyone to believe something. Someone has to have a seed of faith already planted in themselves for it to be able to grow into something more, and it can only grow into something more if it is nurtured from within. Other people can help, of course, but the ultimately act of taking a leap of faith can only come from you, or in this case, Clark.

Ah, so basically Clark was rendered useless throughout the episode because of his lack in trust of Chloe. Great, what a wonderful way to tell a story about Clark Kent where an episode is conveniently written to all but take him out and prevent him from having barely (if any) any impact or character progression. So, just like in Lazarus how Clark's actions were used against him to "propel" this season, Chloe and his lack in trust in her was brought back in this episode to further stunt his progression. These writers are clearly showing their desperation.

Clark's progression wasn't stunted, in my opinion. Not at all. Clark's inability to trust Chloe was one of those unresolved issues Clark still hadn't dealt with yet, which was understandable given the mysterious way she left. Clark couldn't trust Chloe because, as he stated, "Chloe and I are on different paths. I don't know where she's headed." His lack of faith, in other words, was reasonable. What Chloe (and Lois) was essentially asking Clark to do was to forget the bad aspects of the past and only remember the good; the "history" Clark believed could be blinding him was the same "history" that was guiding his heart to trust her. Forgiveness, like trust, is hard.

Let me put it this way: Clark made peace with his guilt over Jonathan's death, he put aside his resentment over Oliver's decision to go public, he reconciled with Jor-El via his hologram, and he stopped fearing the future by taking a leap of faith with Lois by telling her his secret. Chloe was unfinished business, however, and this episode was a chance for Clark to check another source of "darkness" off the list - to bury the hatchet with Chloe like Clark buried his father's watch, if you will. Rather than being regressed, I believe Clark took one more step closer to his destiny.

[Dyanara]

Ah, so basically Clark was rendered useless throughout the episode because of his lack in trust of Chloe. Great, what a wonderful way to tell a story about Clark Kent where an episode is conveniently written to all but take him out and prevent him from having barely (if any) any impact or character progression. So, just like in Lazarus how Clark's actions were used against him to "propel" this season, Chloe and his lack in trust in her was brought back in this episode to further stunt his progression. These writers are clearly showing their desperation.

You've got a point, Clark needs to be able to accomplish things because of somebody else, whether it be a pep talk from Lois or his faith in Chloe who is all of a sudden God. This is just pathetic, and it is one of those times when the writers write Clark badly to build up another character.

[ginevrakent]

You've got a point, Clark needs to be able to accomplish things because of somebody else, whether it be a pep talk from Lois or his faith in Chloe who is all of a sudden God. This is just pathetic, and it is one of those times when the writers write Clark badly to build up another character.

I disagree. Clark looked good to not trust Chloe. As he said in the episode, she was going down a different path and he wanted to know why so he could trust her. This is completely understandable given Clark and Chloe's history together. Chloe was the one who looked bad, as a result, because Clark's lack of faith in Chloe was borne out of her mistakes not his mistakes. Clark couldn't trust Chloe because she had a history of being untrustworthy.

[vantheman77]

Regardless, Clark was useless and contributed nothing in this episode. Both Lois and Chloe ended up holding his hand and he was not involved with the JL/ SS' fight with the VRA.

As for Clark wanting to know why he can trust Chloe and vice-versa, that will be touched on in the next few episodes.

[ginevrakent]

Regardless, Clark was useless and contributed nothing in this episode.

Clark grew in this episode, and that's what I care about. Evidence of growth doesn't always come in the form of accomplishing a mighty task that benefits others. Sometimes it comes in the form of accomplishing a difficult task that benefits himself. For Clark to come to terms with the person Chloe had become and for Clark to access a deeper belief in himself were both very important. The episode also gave Clark credit for his past contributions when Chloe said she "learned from the best."

Both Lois and Chloe ended up holding his hand and he was not involved with the JL/ SS' fight with the VRA.

What ultimately matters to me are Clark's choices. Clark chose not to trust Chloe and he chose to believe in himself. Chloe said in the episode that she couldn't make Clark trust her, and the same is true about Lois; she couldn't make Clark believe in himself. The way I see it, it's kind of like someone who's afraid to sky dive. Sure, people can cheer you on and explain the procedure of what to do when you jump, but the scariest part, the most important part, is actually jumping out of the plane. So whether it was choosing not to trust Chloe or choosing to trust himself, Clark made those choices on his own. No amount of hand holding could make him do either.

I don't mind Clark not getting involved in the fight against the VRA. He was waging a more important battle with himself in the Virtual World. His victory over his own disbelief was an important step for him, in my opinion, because sustaining and building on that victory is what will make him the ultimate weapon against Darkseid and the ultimate beacon of hope to the world. JMO. YMMV.

[luckycloisfan]

Regardless, Clark was useless and contributed nothing in this episode. Both Lois and Chloe ended up holding his hand and he was not involved with the JL/ SS' fight with the VRA.

As for Clark wanting to know why he can trust Chloe and vice-versa, that will be touched on in the next few episodes.

Darn, maybe Tom shouldn't have a 22 episode contract

They could have had Chloe do everything she did and then Dinah for the Doubting Thomas character/Lois gives her a pep talk

Seriously, though. Clark didn't fight in this episode. Nor did he in Patriot... or Icarus, right, cause Hawkman saved the day...

Hmmm, seems to be the theme of the show... use Clark as little as possible... cause Smart, Heroic, Confident, and Competent Clark is just too close to Superman

[ginevrakent]

Hmmm, seems to be the theme of the show... use Clark as little as possible... cause Smart, Heroic, Confident, and Competent Clark is just too close to Superman

Someone can be smart, heroic, confident, and competent without demonstrating those qualities in fights.