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  • #61
    I know that for a lot of people, Lois sticking up for Chloe was a wonderfull thing to see. To me, it would have been better if Lois knew even half the things that Chloe has done. Lois does not know most the reasons for Clark's (valid, IMO) distrust of Chloe. I think, this made the scene quite sad.
    ITA.

    Would Lois have unwavering faith if she knew everything about whats gone down with Chloe, and particularly between Chloe and Clark? It seems to me that Lois' "faith" is based on a very incomplete picture.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by BadToad
      Would Lois have unwavering faith if she knew everything about whats gone down with Chloe, and particularly between Chloe and Clark? It seems to me that Lois' "faith" is based on a very incomplete picture.
      It is, which is why I totally understood why Clark wasn't easily persuaded to believe in Chloe just because Lois trusted her. Clark has frequently commented, as have other people, that Lois often has too much blind faith in people. She trusted Zod's Blur, after all, didn't she? Lois also rationalized The Blur's questionable decision to incinerate a truck with a living human being inside of it in Upgrade. So Lois isn't exactly above whitewashing the questionable actions of those she worships.

      ----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

      Originally posted by BadToad
      Yes, exactly. Clark has had similar experiences.
      The only other comparable experience, in my opinion, was Labyrinth. In contrast to that episode, every character in Collateral was trying to convince Clark he wasn't crazy and was in a fake world; they were also trying to convince him to do something extreme at the end of it. If he learned anything from Labyrinth, if people are trying to get you to do something dangerous to make everything "right" again, it may be best not to surrender to that. Similarly, from Splinter Clark learned that he could very well hallucinate--believing he's seeing things that are real and menacing--only to react to those things and discover that he was the problem. He also ultimately learned that Milton Fine had pretended to be his ally, and had put him through all of that, just to later abuse that trust.

      Right, exactly. To believe that Clark was using his "intelligence", one has to buy into the idea that Clark stubbornly clinging to the PTS excuse was both reasonable and plausible. Only the way this ep was structured, it wasn't. Look at the VR world...the DP was all but abandoned, Chloe shot up a hospital, and where was the outcry?, the other heroes were just MIA (and Clark couldn't bother to mention).
      The DP has been shown to be sparsely populated in previous non-AU episodes before. For example, late at night in Metallo when John Corben came to search the DP archives and needed Lois' keys. In Doomsday, no one else was around during Clark and Lois' conversations or Tess and Lois' fight. In Siren they show only one guy leaving his desk for the night as Chloe begins her hacking for Oliver, which is later intercepted by Black Canary.

      If I recall correctly (and I may not since I haven't rewatched this part), Clark wanted to investigate the facility from which he believed he, Lois, Oliver, and Dinah had been released to discover if the rest of the heroes were still there. As for an outcry about Chloe shooting people at the hospital, I don't know what to make of it. If they had shown there was an outcry, and Clark dismissing that evidence, I'd find that more problematic. However, since they depicted the shooting and the rest of the episode's events as taking place over a very short period of time, and no one else in the "public" was shown as aware of what happened, it simply comes off that the shooting hadn't been made news yet.

      At this point, I'm ready to see Clark do what you describe on a consistent basis.
      I could always use more of it as well.
      Last edited by ginevrakent; 02-08-2011, 01:36 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Lady Di
        ^^ I know that for a lot of people, Lois sticking up for Chloe was a wonderfull thing to see. To me, it would have been better if Lois knew even half the things that Chloe has done. Lois does not know most the reasons for Clark's (valid, IMO) distrust of Chloe. I think, this made the scene quite sad.

        Also, on another board, I've seen people comment on the fact that Chloe did not want Lois to know that Clark is the Blur and that this might change Lois' opinion on Chloe. I'm not sure about that (I'm sure she would still love Chloe), but it's an interesting thought.
        Originally posted by BadToad
        ITA.

        Would Lois have unwavering faith if she knew everything about whats gone down with Chloe, and particularly between Chloe and Clark? It seems to me that Lois' "faith" is based on a very incomplete picture.
        well, nearly everything lois said about chloe to clark, when she was reminding him of everything he and chloe have gone through, were things we would've never guessed she knew about. if we're supposed to assume they filled her in on all the good stuff chloe did with clark then its only fair to assume they filled her in on the bad as well. if lois is now in on it, she's in on it. everything. so i cant accept the argument that lois' defense of chloe is invalidated by her ignorance. obviously, somewhere in offscreenville she was informed of everything.

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        • #64
          if we're supposed to assume they filled her in on all the good stuff chloe did with clark then its only fair to assume they filled her in on the bad as well.
          If Lois was fully informed, then her line about Chloe not trusting Clark "maybe for the first time" makes absolutely zero sense. Oh course, Chloe tried to sell that same line of BS to Clark later in the episode (which Clark cluelessly went along with), so maybe our crack team of SV writers just forgot whats actually taken place on the show.

          I don't feel as a viewer that its my job to wank what happens off screen. As far as I can tell, and juding by what Lois was saying, she still only knows half a story. JMO

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          • #65
            Originally posted by SVfan87
            well, nearly everything lois said about chloe to clark, when she was reminding him of everything he and chloe have gone through, were things we would've never guessed she knew about. if we're supposed to assume they filled her in on all the good stuff chloe did with clark then its only fair to assume they filled her in on the bad as well. if lois is now in on it, she's in on it. everything. so i cant accept the argument that lois' defense of chloe is invalidated by her ignorance. obviously, somewhere in offscreenville she was informed of everything.
            Fair enough!

            To me, these things are quite important, so I do not accept the offscreenville solution. Especially since the issue of trust was expressly addressed in this episode. I would think that calls for a somewhat more explicit discussion of certain things that have happened.

            ----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

            Oh now it seems we're ganging up on you, sorry SVfan87
            Last edited by Lady Di; 02-08-2011, 02:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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            • #66
              Originally posted by SVfan87
              so i cant accept the argument that lois' defense of chloe is invalidated by her ignorance. obviously, somewhere in offscreenville she was informed of everything.
              I don't think it's obvious. One might assume that Clark had told Lois about Watchtower after he told her he was the Blur, but Lois didn't learn about that until we saw it happen in Patriot. So, at least from my subjective point of view, it isn't obvious that Clark told Lois the good and bad of Chloe's past.

              In addition, there are some things about Chloe that could color Lois' view of Chloe that even Clark doesn't know. He doesn't know that Chloe allowed Lois to more or less be tortured in Roulette, that Chloe chloroformed Lois in the same episode Clark assumed Chloe and Lois shared a sisterly bond (Upgrade), that Chloe may have been in the driver's seat when she killed Wilson a.k.a. Sebastian Kane in Identity, and that Chloe kept the secret from him that Oliver murdered Lex in Requiem. Clark doesn't even know that Chloe had erotic dreams about Davis when she went around claiming she did everything regarding Davis purely to protect Clark.

              Admittedly, if neither Lois nor Clark knows about any of these things they are irrelevant to the differences in their respective levels of trust in Chloe. Still, it just goes to show how people treat Chloe and how she's perceived is a farce at this point. I don't think I'll ever be able to appreciate Chloe as some of the characters do on the show precisely because I've unfortunately been privy to all of her failings.

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              • #67
                Didn't they say there would be some things explained in her arc regarding relationships
                with the others. I think it was Brian who said it.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by BadToad
                  Right, exactly. To believe that Clark was using his "intelligence", one has to buy into the idea that Clark stubbornly clinging to the PTS
                  Clark died and came back to life, was drowned in memory tanks, switched bodies with other people, was sent to alternate realities, traveled through time, lost his memories, was frozen in the arctic, phantoms parasited in his brain, was imprisoned in the PZ and never suffered from PTSD. IMO, clark thinking he's suffering from PTSD is a joke, the worst writing I've seen for Clark on this show.

                  Only the way this ep was structured, it wasn't. Look at the VR world...the DP was all but abandoned, Chloe shot up a hospital, and where was the outcry?, the other heroes were just MIA (and Clark couldn't bother to mention).
                  You know what I thought when Lois stormed into the bullpen saying she had just talked to Chloe? that Chloe was controlling her avatar, that it was all fake. She appeared out of nowhere and started talking with such haste that it made me doubt it was her. Then fake chloe shows up looking more fake than ever and Clark sits passively, his eyes going from one to the other, doubting, and I wanted to yell at the scream for him to react.

                  I think the episode oversimplified thinks to such extent that it became completely unbelievable.
                  The SS giving up their beliefs and Chloe becoming their leader because of the lamest blackmail (and some crappy virus in their missile system), the VRA guards plugged to the VR machine and everyone smiling. The Chlark trust issues from season 9 swept under the rug. Everything contributed to make this the worst episode of the season. But that belongs to another thread. This is the chlo-lo thread and we are supposed to believe that Chloe is delighted to be the maid of honour when in Charade she was completely against Clark telling Lois his secret. Of all the inconsistencies I've seen on this show, Collateral is the worst.
                  Last edited by Bizarrolover; 02-08-2011, 02:16 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bizarrolover
                    Clark died and came back to life, was drowned in memory tanks was frozen in the arctic, phantoms parasited in his brain, was imprisoned in the PZ and never suffered from PTSD. IMO, clark thinking he's suffering from PTSD is a joke, the worst writing I've seen for Clark on this show.
                    I think Clark believed he was suffering from PTSD in this case, rather than others, because he believed he had been stripped of his powers and experimented on in ways to specifically affect his perception abilities. When the phantom attacked his brain in Labyrinth it was giving in to the multiple voices of opposition and mounting evidence that was the danger. Also, in Splinter, Cark was made insane, and so he saw things that weren't real and he reacted to those unrealities in ways he later regretted.

                    Finally, one of Clark's biggest and most enduring fears is being experimented on. If he believed something like that happened to him, and even remembered the trauma of what happened to him in Memoria or Traveler, it would more than likely have increased his sense of anguish and violation, not lessened it. In other words, it would have been more traumatic than being in the Phantom Zone; thus more likely to cause PTSD.

                    So, if anything, I think Clark's previous experiences would have made him more hesitant, in my opinion. In that context, Clark's reaction differing from Lois' reaction--a reaction based on her unconditional love and uninformed view of Chloe--makes sense to me. YMMV.

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                    • #70
                      You know; I just realized that once again, SV has deprived us of seeing a actual reunion scene featuring Chloe and another member of the cast.

                      I mean they had cut out the reunion scene between Chloe and Lana from Season 7, and whether it was written this way or just cut out at the end, I think it would have been nice to see on what Lois and Chloe's reactions would have been like when they saw each other again for the first time in the VR world

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Lady Di
                        Fair enough!

                        To me, these things are quite important, so I do not accept the offscreenville solution. Especially since the issue of trust was expressly addressed in this episode. I would think that calls for a somewhat more explicit discussion of certain things that have happened.

                        ----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

                        Oh now it seems we're ganging up on you, sorry SVfan87
                        no need to apologize. its a good discussion. sometimes i do get a little apprehensive when i see a lot of replies to something i wrote cuz it's hard to read criticism or to feel attacked but in this case you guys aren't being mean so all is okay. i do hope that i myself didn't come across too strong with my opinion.

                        whats funny about discussions like this is that we can go so deep digging into the story and the characters and see things and make conclusions that just aren't there. because honestly i don't believe the writers spend as much time as we do analyzing their characters and every move they make. they should be since they're responsible for producing a cohesive show but, unfortunately, i just don't get the feeling they do.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by SVfan87
                          whats funny about discussions like this is that we can go so deep digging into the story and the characters and see things and make conclusions that just aren't there. because honestly i don't believe the writers spend as much time as we do analyzing their characters and every move they make. they should be since they're responsible for producing a cohesive show but, unfortunately, i just don't get the feeling they do.
                          On this, we can definately agree.

                          Which is a bit sad.

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                          • #73
                            Chlo-Lo was awesome in this episode. I really enjoyed it.

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                            • #74
                              I loved the Chlo-Lo in "Collateral". I've waited a long time for this! It was great the way Lois knew immediately that that avatar was a Chloe-impostor. I loved the way she instinctively is on Chloe's side. Family loyalty-- sweet and so much fun. I hope AM and ED have some more scenes together in upcoming eps-- they're great together!

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                              • #75
                                I wish that we could have gotten to have seen their first reunion in the VR on screen...

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