Offensive Torture Scenes: A New Controversy?

[Glove]

Never forget, this controversial episode may actually pick up some
viewers. This could help the show?

And yes, I remember my mom cringing at the sight of Malik being
cut open. ABC should have had a warning at the beginning of the
episode saying that some material may not be suited for children.
It is on at 9 PM on a Tuesday night and most children should be
in bed around this time.

[SteelyGal]

I had a chance to talk to my mom tonight. I was right: my parents DEFINITELY turned it off after Ryan ripped that large shard of skin off Malik's back. And according to her, they're done with watching the show.

I wonder how many viewers have been lost over this? I honestly never thought it'd have this impact.

I am not surprised this scene will cost viewers. I bet if the skin being ripped off had happened offscreen and later we saw her body on the bed with her real skin being exposed, people would have been less offended. Just like the same viewers who were offended seeing Malik's skin being ripped off probably were not offended by the guy being tortured by getting his soul ripped out of him. Just for the fact his torture wasn't as graphic but probably equally painful. In some ways his was worse because he wasn't given in option to take the less painful way to die.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Never forget, this controversial episode may actually pick up some
viewers. This could help the show?

It might help the show. Or it might damage it more. We are trying to hold on to all 5-6 million viewers we have right now AND build on that number. If people (like my parents for example, and many others I've read complaints from online) drop the show, will they be replaced by new viewers? We are missing a week of momentum this Tuesday, so...

Remember, it's not like these episodes are online so that people can check out what the buzz is all about for themselves. If you missed "Laid Bare", you just missed it period.

ABC should have had a warning at the beginning of the
episode saying that some material may not be suited for children.
It is on at 9 PM on a Tuesday night and most children should be
in bed around this time.

Agreed. In fact, I think the episode should have at least got a MA rating as well. However, a lot of kids are NOT in bed around 9pm. If V was coming on at 10 (like it used to) they could've gotten away with more; I was shocked that showed so much considering the time slot.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

I am not surprised this scene will cost viewers. I bet if the skin being ripped off had happened offscreen and later we saw her body on the bed with her real skin being exposed, people would have been less offended. Just like the same viewers who were offended seeing Malik's skin being ripped off probably were not offended by the guy being tortured by getting his soul ripped out of him. Just for the fact his torture wasn't as graphic but probably equally painful. In some ways his was worse because he wasn't given in option to take the less painful way to die.

Yes, they definitely chose to be as graphic as possible--with everything. Still not quite sure how I feel about this. Personally, the sight of blood literally makes me sick to my stomach (it's a phobia for me). And yet, this series is just repeatedly delving into situations where they can show more of it. Looking at the preview for next week with Diana tells me I'm gonna have to look away again. That's the reason I don't watch these vampires and true blood shows...seeing blood sends me over the edge.

If they had made the blood green like the original series, it would somehow be easier to deal with and make them more "alien". I think some people just tuning in would not realize that Malik was a Visitor because all they would see is her red blood and flesh flying everywhere.

[kernel_thai]

The only question I see here is how much needed to be graphically displayed as opposed to shot from a different perspective. I certainly would have gotten the same message if the camera hadnt been focused on Malik but instead simply showed the result. That being said, they did a good job showing restraint and misgivings about what was being done. I think the fact this was a last resort as opposed to the first option was important. I also think they show enough scenes were the visitors torture/experiment on humans to balance things out. Whether or not people believe the ends justify the means, sometimes good people r forced to do terrible things.

[SteelyGal]

It might help the show. Or it might damage it more. We are trying to hold on to all 5-6 million viewers we have right now AND build on that number. If people (like my parents for example, and many others I've read complaints from online) drop the show, will they be replaced by new viewers? We are missing a week of momentum this Tuesday, so...

Remember, it's not like these episodes are online so that people can check out what the buzz is all about for themselves. If you missed "Laid Bare", you just missed it period.

When you have a conterversial ep, it would be a good idea to have it online for others to determine if they agree or not. Because like you said, there is a chance that the viewers lost are not going to be replaced by new viewers. By showing it online, you have a chance to win viewers who will check out what the buzz is all about.

I like the show and hope it stays on the air. But folks who watched the original mini-series are bringing their kids on board to watch it to try to share something they loved in the past. They might be fine with it being more intense but not necessarily the graphic nature of it. Even though that scene did make me close my eyes, I hope it doesn't cost them viewers.

The only question I see here is how much needed to be graphically displayed as opposed to shot from a different perspective. I certainly would have gotten the same message if the camera hadnt been focused on Malik but instead simply showed the result. That being said, they did a good job showing restraint and misgivings about what was being done. I think the fact this was a last resort as opposed to the first option was important. I also think they show enough scenes were the visitors torture/experiment on humans to balance things out. Whether or not people believe the ends justify the means, sometimes good people r forced to do terrible things.

I agree especially the bolded part. But also I wish they had shown flashbacks to the number of people Malik rounded up and had killed. We all knew she was a bad guy but this would reinforce why saving that girl and possible others was so crucial she had to be tortured.

[Glove]

Speaking of torture, I just watched a Samuel L. Jackson movie
where he tortures this guy pretty bad to get the location of
multiple nuclear bombs. The movie was called Unthinkable.
The FBI (bleeding heart) agent was against torture until a lot
of people were killed by the first bomb. Most of these people
are against it until it happens to one of their loved ones. They
don't even look at the big picture until it hits home. Then
they change their opinions on the subject. The same
thing can be said for the death penalty.

[El Nino]

I haven't seen this episode yet so i can't comment on whether the graphic scenes were necessary (Or even if they were graphic at all, or is some people just being over sensitive).

But on the subject of torture, i would say that in extreme circumstances that sometimes it is necessary. I know it's a sensitive issue but lets say for example, that on the eve of 9/11 a terrorist had been captured. How many people would have said that torture was an acceptaple necessity to find out the information, that would have stopped that appalling atrocity from happening ?

[menTat]

Gender at issue?

Just like the same viewers who were offended seeing Malik's skin being ripped off probably were not offended by the guy being tortured by getting his soul ripped out of him. Just for the fact his torture wasn't as graphic but probably equally painful...

One has to also wonder if one of the bigger issue here is the elephant in the room: this has to be one of the few shows that has actually depicted the good guys torturing a female. Like it or not, we humans are a pretty sexist bunch. We are happy to see female equality when it comes to the good things in life, but this resolve slacks considerably when it comes to those less savory subjects. My guess is if she would have been a he, we wouldn't even be having this conversation (as others have said, other shows have depicted far worse). Incidentally, since only females have a tail, they even took it so far as a suggested castration. As for the torture of the guy at the end, his was probably far more palatable since (a) it was certainly less bloody and (b) he was in many ways simply fulfilling his role as the "disposable male."

Personally, I was impressed and happy to see that the producers took things as far as they did with Malik. The show really needs a kick-start to get going. If the rumblings on the 'net are any indication, the natives are getting restless for some actual action. There was no doubt this episode had the thought provoking action!

[Lauren_17]

One has to also wonder if one of the bigger issue here is the elephant in the room: this has to be one of the few shows that has actually depicted the good guys torturing a female. Like it or not, we humans are a pretty sexist bunch. We are happy to see female equality when it comes to the good things in life, but this resolve slacks considerably when it comes to those less savory subjects. My guess is if she would have been a he, we wouldn't even be having this conversation (as others have said, other shows have depicted far worse).

Torture scenes don't bother me so much - male or female, as long as they are the perceived bad guys, I'm all for it - but as I said before, for me, what made me cringe was how believable the acting was. Had a male actor knocked it out of the park like Rekha Sharma, I think it would still have been the same reaction. Because she was unbelievably good.

[Lightning Strykez!]

She was almost *too* good.

I agree that the series needed this shot in the arm in terms of graphic action. But I think some of the lines got blurred a bit in terms of portraying the good guys in the proper light. I actually felt sorry for Malik at the end. That tear running down her cheek before her death was just too much for me. Yeah, she had some smirks and evil laughs but when you think about it, she really didn't do much throughout the 1st season or this one that warranted such a violent death.

I mean, they really tore her body apart. It went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond skinning: she was skinned, decapitated AND castrated. Jesus...It was as if the 5th Columnist present were basically taking out their pent up anger and frustration with the war on Malik's body. I didn't care for that element. If they had built her up to be more sadistically evil, maybe I wouldn't have any sympathy. But all she basically did was tamper with evidence and beat the crap out of Erica.

Not enough.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

One has to also wonder if one of the bigger issue here is the elephant in the room: this has to be one of the few shows that has actually depicted the good guys torturing a female. Like it or not, we humans are a pretty sexist bunch.

I think that has a lot to do with it too.

And the fact that she was a cultural minority may have given some people some unsavory flashbacks to what's been going on in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. in real life. I mean, come on...she was an enemy/terriorist type character named MALIK.

What message were they trying to send?

----- Added 26 Minutes later -----

Personally, I was impressed and happy to see that the producers took things as far as they did with Malik. The show really needs a kick-start to get going. If the rumblings on the 'net are any indication, the natives are getting restless for some actual action. There was no doubt this episode had the thought provoking action!

I think they avoided MAJOR controversy with Jack not being present when the torture took place. If a priest had been there watching the deconstruction of Malik, that would've opened up a whole additional can of worms!

[Caesis]

What message were they trying to send?

Same message that 24 and Jack Bauer were sending. They will do anything to accomplish their goals. If the ends justify the means ...

[Lauren_17]

She was almost *too* good.

Agreed.

I agree that the series needed this shot in the arm in terms of graphic action. But I think some of the lines got blurred a bit in terms of portraying the good guys in the proper light.

What I think is blurred is that there is a concept of a "good guy" on this show. This isn't Superman stopping crime. This is a war, and in a war, there is no such thing as a good or bad guy - just defending your own (or in Ryan's case, want you want/believe in), which is what the Fifth Column is doing.

I actually felt sorry for Malik at the end. That tear running down her cheek before her death was just too much for me.

Yeah. That stirred some emotion in me too.

Yeah, she had some smirks and evil laughs but when you think about it, she really didn't do much throughout the 1st season or this one that warranted such a violent death. I mean, they really tore her body apart. It went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond skinning: she was skinned, decapitated AND castrated. Jesus...It was as if the 5th Columnist present were basically taking out their pent up anger and frustration with the war on Malik's body.

They needed information, and remember, it was Ryan who cut off her tail and removed the chunk of skin. I think he was taking his anger out on her over the situation with his daughter. I agree that the Fifth Column went along with it, but I swear at the end, when Malik confesses everything, Erica looks like she feels some guilt or sadness (similar to when Anna killed the Soldiers and walked out).

I didn't care for that element. If they had built her up to be more sadistically evil, maybe I wouldn't have any sympathy.

Well, because the viewers at home are humans, I think naturally the writers assume that because the Vs are who they are and what they are planning to do to our race, they are naturally sadistically evil. They shouldn't have to paint a picture of them doing bad things to get the idea across that they are bad.

When I first heard about the torture scene through the spoilers, I was like, 'go get 'em, Fifth Column - make her suffer.' And then the acting was just so good, I was like 'please give her the sedative.'

And the fact that she was a cultural minority may have given some people some unsavory flashbacks to what's been going on in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. in real life. I mean, come on...she was an enemy/terriorist type character named MALIK.

It may just be me, but I always thought V was bringing in issues we face in today's world on the show, and the war in Iraq is one of the strongest comparisons I can make. Except, we are fighting a different kind of 'threat'. Really, it's rather genius on their part if they are making that connection.

I remember one of my professors telling me that your view on a terrorist changes depending on which side of the fence (world) you sit on.

[menTat]

I didn't care for that element. If they had built her up to be more sadistically evil, maybe I wouldn't have any sympathy. But all she basically did was tamper with evidence and beat the crap out of Erica.

I think you had the visceral reaction the producers wanted you to have. In many ways you demonstrated their whole point: you're human. While the V's (I too hate the name - we need to have their species sooner rather then later) would have tortured her without thinking and not reacted in such a way to viewing her torture...you did/are.

I think that has a lot to do with it too.

That's probably not an unusual reaction. Personally, I was happy to see the producers had the guts to actually be egalitarian enough to depict a female in such a way. After all, we get plenty of the "strong woman", "you go grrl" stuff in this show....this torture should be part of that supposedly female-equal depiction since if women are truly to be thought of as equal then they should be able to take the good with the bad, no?

And the fact that she was a cultural minority may have given some people some unsavory flashbacks to what's been going on in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. in real life. I mean, come on...she was an enemy/terriorist type character named MALIK.

I also thought it was interesting that the person really pushing the torture envelope was a black male. The visceral reaction some folks will experience at such a portrayal is also something that should be underscored and experienced in order to explore the larger question: are we able to look beyond both race and gender and actually look at men, women, black, white as equals? If so, then it shouldn't matter that she was tortured by a black-he...it should just be that someone was tortured at the hands of those we think are good guys.

What message were they trying to send?

In my opinion? That humans can be driven to defend their own and that evil is evil and sometimes it is difficult to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. Battlestar Galactica also had similar overtones. That was what made that show great.

[Lightning Strykez!]

That's probably not an unusual reaction. Personally, I was happy to see the producers had the guts to actually be egalitarian enough to depict a female in such a way. After all, we get plenty of the "strong woman", "you go grrl" stuff in this show....this torture should be part of that supposedly female-equal depiction since if women are truly to be thought of as equal then they should be able to take the good with the bad, no?

That IS true. Never saw it from that angle. I guess if they can dish it, they should be able to take it. Erica has certainly had her share of jaw-breaking on this show. It was kinda cool seeing her fight for her life for once with Malik.

They needed information, and remember, it was Ryan who cut off her tail and removed the chunk of skin. I think he was taking his anger out on her over the situation with his daughter. I agree that the Fifth Column went along with it, but I swear at the end, when Malik confesses everything, Erica looks like she feels some guilt or sadness (similar to when Anna killed the Soldiers and walked out).

I agree with that. Erica DEFINITELY felt some guilt...even some regret over their actions. I never got the feeling that there was this great "love" between her and Malik but they were coworkers at least for quite some time. She's slowly becoming the very thing that she's sworn to fight against as an FBI agent. It's pure irony at its best, now.

[Tyrian]

Lots of people live in a world where the good guys only do good things, with good intentions and good motives. The bad guys only do bad things, with evil intentions and bad motives.

Those people need to wake up a little when watching V - before they complain about it. V is in the middle of a War, and during periods of war, those black/white notions of what good guys do VS what bad guys do - many of them go out the window. Especially when it comes to things like 'survival of your species'. Replace the word species with your family, your friends, your country - and chances are, even if one doesnt realise it or want to admit it - even a 'good person' will go to surprising lengths to protect things they care about.

But of course, we sit back in our living room - where our world is black and white for many of us, and many people dont think about such things.

Good guys doing questionable things during periods of conflict, is COMPELLING story material. Who knows what the 'good guys' are capable of doing next? How boring would things be if all they did is sit in Church with Father Jack and pray all day, or sit in the basement and talk about ways to restore unity to the world. No thanks - id rather see them get in on some of this very questionable behaviour. I love seeing Father Jack acting a little 'un-priest like'.

I, the viewer, will personally decide whether I approve of the 5th column's actions and whether they are deemed acceptable or justifiable.

I find being put in that situation - quite interesting as a viewer. I'd be bored brainless if the good guys were only ever 'good guys' and never did anything that made me feel like I had to sit there and think, "Hmmm.... That is pretty questionable behaviour for the so-called good guys".

Whats one of the biggest differences between season 1 and 2? The fifth column is capable of surprising the audience, not just the V's. Jack gets involved in a fight, starts telling people they aren't welcome in his church. Hobbes tortures and kills a V. Erica gave the approval to do it. Did you guys expect that?

I want the 'good guys' to act a little unpredictably / questionably during times of war. It makes things so much more interesting.

So, torturing a V? Bring it on. Not only that - but ramp it up - we want to see more questionable conduct like that from the 'good guys'. This is meant to be a WAR people. Peoples behaviour might be black/white during periods of peace, but during periods of War its a fight for suvival. It gets dirty. Morales get put aside for a while. People do things they might ordinarily never consider or see themselves doing.