With Supergirl, why bother with Superman?

[liana]

Libby, I appreciate your post and the work you must have had in writing it all. You did raise some interesting thoughts, but, in the end, this episode still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. SV doesn't do subtle, and when they do, they don't write it very well. Usually, with this show, what you see is what you get.

The general idea was that Clark unleashed the darkness, and that his action in Salvation was the wrong course to do. This idea was first touched in Lazarus, and it was expanded here. As much as I would like to agree with you that Kara was portrayed as nothing more than a good soldier that yearns for following orders, I am not entirely convinced about it, because I didn't get that sense in that episode at all. Kara was written to be the heroine of that story, and the fact that the episode was named after her, only reenforces that.

In the end, IMO, Lois came off as much more of a heroine than Kara did, in my eyes. Because she acted as the anti-Kara. Kara was portrayed as not loving or caring about her cousin, and his predictements, while Lois was the portray of love, support and care. Whenever Kara came of as arrogant, Lois came off as humble to the point of not even considering herself at the same statue as the hero she admired so much, and yet, she was even more heroic than Kara was in this particular episode, because she truly risked her life for others. For me, Kara's approach was wrong in all accounts, and yet she was the one that prevented Clark from being possessed, and she was the one showed as the true hero, YMMV.

I really believe we should agree to disagree on this, because we all feel things differently regarding the show and the episodes. As much as I would like to see it the way you do, because it would make me feel a lot better about this arc in particular, I just can't. Fewer episodes disappointed me the way this one do, and I won't lie, I am totally bitter about it. Sorry.

[ginevrakent]

The general idea was that Clark unleashed the darkness, and that his action in Salvation was the wrong course to do. This idea was first touched in Lazarus, and it was expanded here.

One the most prevalent and significant themes or lessons this season is that Clark shouldn't blame himself for those things for which he had no control. Not one person on the entire show has blamed Clark for The Darkness being on Earth, not even Clark. The only time he brought it up, neither he nor Kara showed any hint of condemnation, IMO:

Clark: When you said the darkness came through a tear in the universe it all made sense. Three weeks ago I was on this rooftop when I opened a portal using the Book of Rao. The darkness came through a gateway, maybe it can leave through one.

This is a healthy perspective for Clark to have, because blaming himself for something he did not create and which was unforeseen, is one of the reasons he's been so vulnerable in the past. Evil will always exist, and villains will always need to be fought, because, as Jor-El said in Lazarus, "evil never ends." Clark cannot and has not been held responsible for unleashing The Darkness because he did not do so knowingly and because it was an evil that existed before Clark ever used The Book of Rao. It is counter to the message of Metallo, which is Clark shoudn't blame himself for Corben's sister being murdered, and it's been something the show addressed as early as Fade in which Clark wondered aloud, "If saving strangers ends up getting other people killed, I'm not sure that's the business I want to be in." Interpreting the events in Lazarus through Supergirl as evidence that Clark's to blame for The Darkness is like accepting the interpretation that Clark is to blame for meteor freaks. Clark did not choose for meteor rocks to come with him from a galaxy far, far, away to later prey on the darkness in many of his peers, just like he did not choose for The Darkness to manifest from Apokolips to prey on the weaknesses in people.

The only time Clark was accused of wrongdoing in connection to his actions on the crows nest was when Clark was communing with Jor-El as he teetered between life and death in Lazarus. Jor-El said to his son, "By sacrificing yourself, you've left the humans vulnerable to future threats." This statement alone implies only that Jor-El is upset that Clark chose to pursue a course that was counter to his destiny in that he wouldn't be able to protect others from a plethora of future threats, not specifically The Darkness. Jor-El's additional disappointment that Clark "chose the martyr's path" instead of ruling "with strength," was revealed in Abandoned as a misguided sentiment the AI has because it was designed specifically to reject this kind of approach as a sign of weakness. In addition, as a computer, the AI is only stating the objective truth which is by martyring himself, Clark could not rule, or do anything for that matter. Furthermore, it implies that taking the blame for unleashing The Darkness would also be an act of martyrdom which would only serve to weaken Clark. If Jor-El doesn't blame Clark for The Darkness, Clark doesn't, no one else does, and the message of the show is that it is unhealthy and unproductive to blame oneself for things outside one's control, then it hardly feels like the message is that Clark is at fault. YMMV.

As much as I would like to agree with you that Kara was portrayed as nothing more than a good soldier that yearns for following orders, I am not entirely convinced about it, because I didn't get that sense in that episode at all. Kara was written to be the heroine of that story, and the fact that the episode was named after her, only reenforces that.

I'm not sure how these two notions are connected, since Kara can be portrayed as a good solider following orders and the heroine of the story. Kara being the heroine of the story, in other words, wouldn't be undermined if it was due to her soldier-like clarity of purpose and strict obedience to the orders she had been given. After all, aren't soldiers heroes? I'm not even sure I can completely agree that Kara was written as the heroine of the story. The episode itself and subsequent episodes showed that Kara was wrong to make herself a public spectacle, because it needlessly put others at risk (e.g. Clark found The Darkness with ease using Watchtower's resources and photos of Clark with Kara were used against him). Kara is even shown admitting her error in the episode when she tells Clark she (and Jor-El) "underestimated" him and he was right that she didn't need to be the "center of attention."

The episode may have been named after Kara's future alter ego, but it's not the first time an episode was name after her. S7 Kara was named after her, and that episode showed that Kara was heroic to absorb her ship's explosion. It also, however, showed that she wouldn't have found it without Clark's help. Finally, I think it's pretty clear that the episode's title was meant to apply to Lois as well, and for the reasons you articulated in your post.

For me, Kara's approach was wrong in all accounts, and yet she was the one that prevented Clark from being possessed, and she was the one showed as the true hero, YMMV.

Kara was shown to be heroic in her ability to use her bracelet to prevent Clark from being possessed. Since the episode did not show that it was anything other than Kara's bracelet which repelled The Darkness, it sends the message that there was nothing inherently better about Kara since she needed Clark's help at Watchtower and the help of her bracelet to have a momentary victory against an evil that is still a threat infecting the public. The only area in which Kara is shown to have greater strength is in her ability to pursue a mission without fear of failure. Considering Lois was shown to have the same strength, and Clark gained insight and fortitude to access it within himself in the subsequent episode, any sense of Kara as a superior hero is diluted, in my opinion.

I really believe we should agree to disagree on this, because we all feel things differently regarding the show and the episodes. As much as I would like to see it the way you do, because it would make me feel a lot better about this arc in particular, I just can't. Fewer episodes disappointed me the way this one do, and I won't lie, I am totally bitter about it. Sorry.

Thanks for the apology, but you don't need to apologize for having a different interpretation or perspective on the show. I respect your different point of view, but I must say your claim that "what you see is what you get" on Smallville seems to disrespect mine. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but it basically undermines your later statement that you understand that "we all feel things differently." So, sure, we can agree to disagree, since we're dealing subjective matters and not objective matters. We have a different opinion, which is fine. No worries.

[liana]

Thanks for the apology, but you don't need to apologize for having a different interpretation or perspective on the show. I respect your different point of view, but I must say your claim that "what you see is what you get" on Smallville seems to disrespect mine. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but it basically undermines your later statement that you understand that "we all feel things differently." So, sure, we can agree to disagree, since we're dealing subjective matters and not objective matters. We have a different opinion, which is fine. No worries.

I didn't mean to disrespect your point of view at all. I said that "usually, with this show, what you see is what you get" (not always, but usually), and when they do subtle, I don't think they do it well. It is my feelings on the show, in general, and in no way it is any kind of disrespect on your point of view of it all. It is just a statement of how I see this show.

I could get one example of SV doing subtle that some Clois fans got, in the end of Doomsday that I only understood in Pandora: the idea that Lois was Clark's home. I couldn't, especially after Lana's arc, see that, as much as I wanted to see it, as a Clois fan. I sincerely believed there was fanwanking in the process, and I was wrong. I believe there was some serious problem in season 8 writing, because apparently, this was the message they were trying to sell, and I know lots of fans that didn't get it until much later in season 9. Maybe it is the same case here, and you are right. But, right now, I can't feel like that, and I can't see it the way you do. And believe me when I say that I would love to. But the truth is, I can't.

[ginevrakent]

I didn't mean to disrespect your point of view at all. I said that "usually, with this show, what you see is what you get" (not always, but usually), and when they do subtle, I don't think they do it well. It is my feelings on the show, in general, and in no way it is any kind of disrespect on your point of view of it all. It is just a statement of how I see this show.

The bottom line for me is what I see and get from the show is naturally going to be different than what you see and get from the show. When I present dialogue and visuals from scenes, I don't feel as if I'm discussing subtleties. And I dislike the implication that I am, since subtleties, according to your definition, are not done well to the point that they aren't included as part of what one can "get" simply from "see[ing]" (watching) the show. That said, thank you for clarifying that you meant no disrespect.

Maybe it is the same case here, and you are right. But, right now, I can't feel like that, and I can't see it the way you do.

No problem. I completely respect the fact that you can't feel or see the show as I do. I don't expect you to. I just wanted to share my point of view on the key issues you brought up in part because these things have been on my mind as well. Now that we've both shared our point of view, and can respect our differences, it seems like a good place to agree to disagree and leave anything further to private messages.

[Odysseus]

Responding from another thread:



Just my personal opinion/interpretation, but I don't remember any moment in Supergirl where this specific idea was communicated. I know Kara continued to impart the message from Jor-El that Clark wasn't ready to defeat The Darkness, and Kara made a public debut before Clark. But my estimation of these things rose when I considered them in context of subsequent episodes this season. In other words, if Clark's hero arc took a hit in Supergirl, I think it has rebounded to a degree already.

Abandoned explained that Jor-El was programmed to have such an aversion to weakness and failure of any kind that he could not have the faith and support Clark needed to prepare himself to deal with the threat The Darkness posed. Supergirl had previously shown that Kara was "pure of spirit" because she had "clarity of purpose" and was not as afraid of failure as Clark was. The suggestion wasn't that Clark would and could never overcome this fear, just that he wasn't "ready" at that time. Jonathan understood that Clark's life had given him every justification for the fears and resentments he had. As Lupin similarly put it in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, "The [darkness] affect[s] you more than others because there are true horrors in your past, horrors [others] can scarcely imagine. You are not weak [...]. You have nothing to be ashamed of."

Still, Kara was not even shown to be able to accomplish her heroic task without Clark's help. She thought she needed to make a spectacle of herself to draw The Darkness to her, but she learned not only that being the "center of attention" can undermine such efforts--it can hurt people more than it protects them--but also that Clark had the capacity to find The Darkness all along; for it was he who had valuable information about how and when it had come to Earth and he identified its vessel in Godfrey. Also, despite Kara's insistence, that The Darkness wasn't Clark's fight, according to Patriot, she and Clark still confer on the problem with, it seems, Clark making valuable discoveries about how The Darkness is operating. Kara has also been shown to have failed as a public superhero. Not only was it never her intent to inspire anyone with her debut, but the public still distrusts heroes. In fact, I'd say anti-hero sentiment has gotten worse since her debut, and per Ambush, associating with Kara was seen as a suspicious offense while the Blur was dubbed the only hero with a "code of honor."

Superman's public debut is important because of what he inspires. It is a watershed moment that brings great change. As the primary target of anti-hero sentiment, as someone who's been shown uniting and inspiring JLA heroes, and as someone who will have fought his own darkness and won, Clark's already made progress building the foundation that will allow his debut to accomplish what Kara's did not. And when he debuts wearing the \S/ shield, the public will know it's been him who's been with them from the start--the one who seemed to have flown at sunrise to repair a beacon to truth and justice, the DP globe, to the applause of an impressed and grateful crowd.

Kara was impulsive and haughty in Supergirl. While her life experiences made her more equipped to potentially being possessed by The Darkness, they did not make her more able to find it or defeat its influence on the public or other heroes. Having not yet seen Clark's public debut, I cannot say whether or not it will dwarf Kara's. I think it will, though. He's already made progress in inspiring other heroes, leading by example, as Superman's debut always has. His willingness to stand with Oliver in Homecoming and register for the VRA in Patriot both illustrated Clark's inspirational qualities and foreshadowed how his debut will encourage others to follow. In the end, if Clark's debut is more effective because it brings positive change (unlike Kara's which accomplished nothing), and because it doesn't complicate things (like Oliver's), then Clark's debut will be superior in every way. He'll be the ultimate hero.

Anyway, I may be in the minority when it comes to this perspective, but I thought I'd share my thoughts nonetheless. I do respect your different point of view and hope that the show gives us both a Superman debut worthy of our gratitude and applause.

Great post, ginevrakent!

[Estro-gen X]

Kara's acts of heroism are superficial because she didn't inspire anyone, at least we didn't see her debut have any positive impact beyond momentary fame.

Just because we don't see it doesn't mean its not happening. If this was a Supergirl show we would see it but its not. So often people complain that Kara is given too much focus and when they don't focus on something they claim it doesn't exist. Its an assumption with no basis in fact. Its making the leap from 'we didn't see it' to 'its not there' rather that 'we didn't see it' to 'therefore we don't know'

Despite hiding in the shadows, Clark has already had an influential impact on the citizens of Metropolis. We've seen it onscreen just last season in episodes like Idol, Escape, and Warrior. He's encouraged young heroes like the Wonder Twins and children look up to him. Recall what Alec Abrams wrote to The Blur in Warrior:

"Your world is so much better than mine. I wish I could be a hero so I wouldn't get bullied at school. I wish I could be like you so I could have saved my parents. I used to think heroes weren't real until you showed up."

If Kara's "huge public miracle" is considered of value, why is Clark huge public save from Lazarus being ignored? Did he not publicly save over a dozen lives? Didn't the public down below clap for him the same way they clapped for Kara? Hasn't The Blur also made it to the front page of The Daily Planet?

I don't think its an either/or situation. They are both inspirational characters but this being Clark's show means we see more of it from him. I think the fact Kara is on the cover of InStyle says a lot. That isn't a news publication. Lots of women buy that to read about other women they want to emulate. She wouldn't be on the cover if there was no demand.

So what separates Clark from Kara, in terms of the impact of their public debuts, is that Kara may have shown her face, but Clark will debut with a history and a relationship with the public he seeks to serve. What makes Clark different has already been depicted onscreen, in other words.

But we only see his side of the story because the story is his. Kara can barely get an episode from these producers that is actually about her. They gave Lois more screentime in an episode actually called Supergirl. What was that about?!

The problem is: Kara didn't inspire people. By the end of the episode, Kara made no impact at all. In fact, since she has chosen to return to the shadows, the public will most likely turn against her as a hero who came just to show off only to abandoned them.

But she hasn't abandoned them. Its clear she's on the government radar with other active heroes and has taken a name for herself. We know she and Clark are working together off screen. Again, there is that assumption that because you don't see it, it mustn't exist when the fact is we don't see it because Laura isn't available but we can just as easily imagine she is a hero given our information.

Kara couldn't even help people believe in heroes again let alone believe they can be heroes too. Can you point to anything in Supergirl that even remotely backs up the above claim? I am asking because, as I mentioned before, the Wonder Twins and Alec Abrams all testify to The Blur's ability to help people believe they can be heroes. Who are Kara's Zan and Jayna? In what scene in this episode can I see even one Alec Abrams?

So? You are saying what clark has done and saying that to be a hero Kara must do the exact same which is incorrect. Why have more than one hero if they all their job in the same way? Who is to say she didn't meet up with Adam Strange on her travels in the universe and had a sappy heart to heart where she teaches him the value of integration? Its another assumption. We haven't seen her regularly in going on 3 years.

Both the Wonder Twins (blogs) and Alec Abrams (fan letter) were fans of The Blur and were inspired by his heroism to be heroes themselves before Clark revealed himself to them. What about this man from Infamous?

For 50 years, I've watched this city get eaten alive by crime. But you picked us up, Kent. You reminded everybody what it means to be good again.

What about Lois in Stiletto?

Although you're a nameless, faceless blur to us, at this point, you're still an inspiration.

What about other heroes? Will any members of the JLA come out of the shadows because Kara inspired them? If they do, will they speak of her wisdom and her calm leadership? Will they talk about how she inspired them to be heroes?

Would you like an episode where the people she met on her travels across the universe talk about how she inspired them to greatness? I don't think so.

[abhilegend]

Becoz he is SUPERMAN