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  • #61
    Originally posted by ginevrakent
    What Kara did in Supergirl was superficial at best. A true superhero, a true Superman, helps people believe they can be heroes too.
    Why are Kara's acts of heroism merely superficial at best? She probably saved a dozen lives. Why are those lives any less valuable than the first dozen lives Clark saved in the early years of Smallville? If the emphasis is on inspiring belief... well, Clark has always ran away, hidden in shadows, or left some graffiti and some deep-background stories to a single reporter - whereas Kara performed a huge public miracle. (Eventually, it's safe to assume Clark/Superman is going to vastly outdo her in both quality and quantity; but I don't think it's safe to assume we're going to see that depicted onscreen)

    But more importantly - I think you're fundamentally misreading the nature of the critique that is being made here.

    Nobody is saying that they value specific costume details or specific superpowers over the heroic values you champion.

    We are disagreeing with the storytelling choices and the apparent lack of craft demonstrated with these choices.

    You've advocated in this thread and other threads a hopeful scenario of a conclusion to this series which conveys the priorities you associate with the character of Superman. Nobody wants to diminish these priorities. Believe me, we're onboard. We just worry that this episode has, at best done nothing to forward those goals, at worst, done significant harm to them.

    On another thread, someone suggested as an option that Superman's greater and inspirational impact on the citizens of Metropolis could be depicted via a voiceover narration or a montage type sequence in the closing minutes of this series. It was suggested that - So long as it's quality, quantity doesn't matter.

    But, in cinematic terms, modes of expression, screen time, and other discrete forms of emphasis do translate into the quality of experience.

    Voiceover narrations are passive, cheap, and un-cinematic. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but pick up any introductory screenwriting book and within its opening chapters you'll see denunciation after denunciation of that sort of choice.

    Quantity doesn't equal quality - but, the cinematic and storytelling choices are a finite set, and when a filmmaker relegates something to a montage or a voiceover, they're giving a signal to the audience, a value judgement over that material's importance, and relegating it to a secondary status. That's why all those romantic comedies do the "date montage," it's because they're not interested in it in relation to the other material.

    Supergirl's debut was classic, active, immersive and cinematic. It showed heroic acts. Revealing a heroic character. Which, as you so eloquently championed the importance of, should be reasonably expected to inspire people. She literally put herself out there for the sake of others. The image of a hero in a nutshell.

    By leading by example, Supergirl has done more to help people believe they can be heroes too in nine seconds of screen time than Clark has done in nine years.

    (*except for the select few he's shared his secret with)

    If Superman's debut is similarly depicted - but then is followed by a montage of citizens saying "I'm so inspired now!" - some will experience joy, but I'll experience something like this.

    Gosh, I really can't be brief. I apologize to those of you who made it all the way through that. I'll leave the last word to others, I've said way too much already. Sorry. Maybe this was a therapeutic expulsion of the episode. Now I'm cleansed for Episode #200.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by luthor2010
      Why are Kara's acts of heroism merely superficial at best? She probably saved a dozen lives. Why are those lives any less valuable than the first dozen lives Clark saved in the early years of Smallville? If the emphasis is on inspiring belief... well, Clark has always ran away, hidden in shadows, or left some graffiti and some deep-background stories to a single reporter - whereas Kara performed a huge public miracle. (Eventually, it's safe to assume Clark/Superman is going to vastly outdo her in both quality and quantity; but I don't think it's safe to assume we're going to see that depicted onscreen)
      Kara's acts of heroism are superficial because she didn't inspire anyone, at least we didn't see her debut have any positive impact beyond momentary fame. Despite hiding in the shadows, Clark has already had an influential impact on the citizens of Metropolis. We've seen it onscreen just last season in episodes like Idol, Escape, and Warrior. He's encouraged young heroes like the Wonder Twins and children look up to him. Recall what Alec Abrams wrote to The Blur in Warrior:
      "Your world is so much better than mine. I wish I could be a hero so I wouldn't get bullied at school. I wish I could be like you so I could have saved my parents. I used to think heroes weren't real until you showed up."
      If Kara's "huge public miracle" is considered of value, why is Clark huge public save from Lazarus being ignored? Did he not publicly save over a dozen lives? Didn't the public down below clap for him the same way they clapped for Kara? Hasn't The Blur also made it to the front page of The Daily Planet?

      So what separates Clark from Kara, in terms of the impact of their public debuts, is that Kara may have shown her face, but Clark will debut with a history and a relationship with the public he seeks to serve. What makes Clark different has already been depicted onscreen, in other words.

      But more importantly - I think you're fundamentally misreading the nature of the critique that is being made here.

      Nobody is saying that they value specific costume details or specific superpowers over the heroic values you champion.

      We are disagreeing with the storytelling choices and the apparent lack of craft demonstrated with these choices.

      You've advocated in this thread and other threads a hopeful scenario of a conclusion to this series which conveys the priorities you associate with the character of Superman. Nobody wants to diminish these priorities. Believe me, we're onboard. We just worry that this episode has, at best done nothing to forward those goals, at worst, done significant harm to them.
      I'm not denying that significant harm was done. I believe Supergirl created an obstacle for the show to overcome that didn't have to exist in the first place because TPTB didn't carefully consider the implications of their storytelling choices. So I think you are misunderstanding me. All I've been arguing against is the idea that the power of Clark's eventual debut as Superman has been irrevocably lost. There is still hope Clark will be shown to stand out, in the end, for all of the reasons I've stated above and earlier in this thread.

      On another thread, someone suggested as an option that Superman's greater and inspirational impact on the citizens of Metropolis could be depicted via a voiceover narration or a montage type sequence in the closing minutes of this series. It was suggested that - So long as it's quality, quantity doesn't matter.

      But, in cinematic terms, modes of expression, screen time, and other discrete forms of emphasis do translate into the quality of experience.

      Voiceover narrations are passive, cheap, and un-cinematic. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but pick up any introductory screenwriting book and within its opening chapters you'll see denunciation after denunciation of that sort of choice.
      Yes, the "someone" you are referring to is me. The voiceover suggestion was one of several suggestions, which also included the idea of using news reports or a montage of citizens and heroes around the world responding to Superman's debut. These possible options could also be the culmination of an episode or multi-episode arc focusing on Clark defeating Darkseid for all of the public to see.

      Furthermore, you're absolutely right, voiceovers can be cheesy and poorly done. Did you think I was advocating for a poorly written and poorly executed voiceover? The whole point of including one would be to do it right like the concluding voiceovers in films like The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Dark Knight. Screenwriting manuals caution against using a lot of writing techniques because they can range from brilliant to awful, but that doesn't stop talented filmakers or even subpar television writers from using them and using them well.

      Supergirl's debut was classic, active, immersive and cinematic. It showed heroic acts. Revealing a heroic character. Which, as you so eloquently championed the importance of, should be reasonably expected to inspire people. She literally put herself out there for the sake of others. The image of a hero in a nutshell.
      The problem is: Kara didn't inspire people. By the end of the episode, Kara made no impact at all. In fact, since she has chosen to return to the shadows, the public will most likely turn against her as a hero who came just to show off only to abandoned them.

      In contrast, The Blur, who will continue to be persecuted while he protects and serves the public over the next dozen or so episodes, will be greeted as the hero who stuck by them and who was there from the start.

      You speak of Kara's heroic character being illuminated in her classic and cinematic save, but all I saw was a heroic act. Character is not something that can be gleaned from one magical save, it is something illuminated over time through patterns of behavior. Clark, as The Blur, has and will continue to demonstrate his heroic character. The imagery of his first debut may mimic Kara's but the depth of meaning behind it will be far greater because of the lives Clark has already touched. I'm reminded of this panel from the comics:




      By leading by example, Supergirl has done more to help people believe they can be heroes too in nine seconds of screen time than Clark has done in nine years.
      Kara couldn't even help people believe in heroes again let alone believe they can be heroes too. Can you point to anything in Supergirl that even remotely backs up the above claim? I am asking because, as I mentioned before, the Wonder Twins and Alec Abrams all testify to The Blur's ability to help people believe they can be heroes. Who are Kara's Zan and Jayna? In what scene in this episode can I see even one Alec Abrams?

      (*except for the select few he's shared his secret with)
      Both the Wonder Twins (blogs) and Alec Abrams (fan letter) were fans of The Blur and were inspired by his heroism to be heroes themselves before Clark revealed himself to them. What about this man from Infamous?
      For 50 years, I've watched this city get eaten alive by crime. But you picked us up, Kent. You reminded everybody what it means to be good again.
      What about Lois in Stiletto?
      Although you're a nameless, faceless blur to us, at this point, you're still an inspiration.
      What about other heroes? Will any members of the JLA come out of the shadows because Kara inspired them? If they do, will they speak of her wisdom and her calm leadership? Will they talk about how she inspired them to be heroes?

      If Superman's debut is similarly depicted - but then is followed by a montage of citizens saying "I'm so inspired now!" - some will experience joy, but I'll experience something like this.
      Right, because the dialogue would be exactly as you've written it. I can tell you one thing, though, if Supergirl never happened, and all I got in the end for Clark's debut was something identical to Kara's, it would be me banging my head against the wall. I want more and I expect more. The superficial things are meaningless to me. YMMV.
      Last edited by ginevrakent; 10-12-2010, 11:03 PM.

      Comment


      • #63
        ITA ginevrakent, you say it better than I ever could.

        Clark was seen inspiring heroes in Run, Aqua, Vengance,Cyborg, Legion, Hex, Idol, AJ, and Salvation where we see how what Dr.Fate and the Legion were talking about

        Episodes like Prey, Identity(people saw Ollie dressed as the RBB in a blue costume, red cape and yellow belt), Bulletproof, Infamous, Turbulence, Stiletto, Doomsday(Clark's letter to the people of Metropolis and the fight between him and doomsday when he aves a little girl) Idol, Warrior, Escape Hostage and Lazurus showed people were inspired by Blur so when he does make a public save like Identity, Infamous, Hostage and Lazurus only longer and more awesome where he may not show his face(but people like Dan Turpin's son and Alec Abrams had) he make his prensence know with showing a red and blue blur in front of traffic lights and s symbols when ever he makes a save and sometimes he show his face and they know Blur is a man from things like Idol, tthe Speech Lois made in;
        I'm Lois Lane from the Daily Planet, and I'm here to tell you that I know the Blur. The DA says that a true hero would come forward. Well, the Blur can't. It's because he knows that the best way to protect you and me is to steer clear of all this political hoopla, and remain the one thing that you and I need most. A light in the darkness. A symbol for us to believe in when all other hope is lost. I've looked into the Blur's heart and I can tell you that his intentions are good. Let the Blur be the hero he needs to be.
        Bulletproof, Infamous,Savior, Metallo, Sheild and Supergirl show that the public needs a hero and people may not trust him he tries to do his best and the Blur clearly has more effect than Supergirl and they know he's a man from Identity.

        so The Blur will have a bigger affect

        Comment


        • #64
          You two both make great points and while I understand the argument about how Kara didn't inspire people etc., I just feel as if the explanation would work much better if I thought the writers were actually thinking similarly to that. Of course, I don't know if that is the case or not. I always felt the writers logic was that since the show keeps going year after year and they are too afraid to change direction from a show that was never originally intended to last this long, what would be the obvious thing to keep fans watching that they should obviously love? Well, that would be having everyone else doing the things that we won't let Clark do like flying for example.
          Unfortunately for a lot of us, that approach just stings and leaves us feeling more and more frustrated.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Supes_24
            Well no they aren't going to greet Superman with any indifference......hes going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread....but thats unrealistic, since Kara has already performed her miracle

            To me their love and amazement of Superman will feel overdone given what they've seen Kara do

            And that annoys the hell out of me
            While I understand your frustration, I respectfully fail to see how anything Kara did in that "save" at the beginning of the episode was anything more than what Clark's been doing around Metropolis for at least a year.

            What Kara can do? She can fly and she's blonde. She caught a falling billboard and flew off. Yes, that would be amazing to see. But as I've said, and others, it's flashy, 15 minutes of fame kind of heroism.

            Clark caught the freaking Daily Planet Globe and put it back on the DP rooftop. And that was just a few weeks ago. He may not fly yet, but that's not the cornerstone of what makes him a hero, especially the greatest hero. He's been around doing miraculous saves for a long time. I sincerely do not see how Kara's "debut" takes anything away from that or how it could take anything away from what Clark will eventually do.

            ----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

            Originally posted by inferno2010
            Im glad she didnt have the shield,I love laura as supergirl, but Im glad the shield is still the blur/superman's thing. I thought I was the only one who caught that.l

            You weren't the only one, I'm sure. I was glad they at least had the sense to leave that off her costume though. That's certainly Clark's thing, and I think it lends credence and significance to the fact that he wanted to give the people something to believe in, something to look to and know he was there. Kara tried a photoshoot. Which would you rather "believe" in?
            Last edited by hellokitty; 10-12-2010, 07:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by luthor2010
              Why are Kara's acts of heroism merely superficial at best? She probably saved a dozen lives. Why are those lives any less valuable than the first dozen lives Clark saved in the early years of Smallville? If the emphasis is on inspiring belief... well, Clark has always ran away, hidden in shadows, or left some graffiti and some deep-background stories to a single reporter - whereas Kara performed a huge public miracle. (Eventually, it's safe to assume Clark/Superman is going to vastly outdo her in both quality and quantity; but I don't think it's safe to assume we're going to see that depicted onscreen)

              But more importantly - I think you're fundamentally misreading the nature of the critique that is being made here.

              Nobody is saying that they value specific costume details or specific superpowers over the heroic values you champion.

              We are disagreeing with the storytelling choices and the apparent lack of craft demonstrated with these choices.

              You've advocated in this thread and other threads a hopeful scenario of a conclusion to this series which conveys the priorities you associate with the character of Superman. Nobody wants to diminish these priorities. Believe me, we're onboard. We just worry that this episode has, at best done nothing to forward those goals, at worst, done significant harm to them.

              On another thread, someone suggested as an option that Superman's greater and inspirational impact on the citizens of Metropolis could be depicted via a voiceover narration or a montage type sequence in the closing minutes of this series. It was suggested that - So long as it's quality, quantity doesn't matter.

              But, in cinematic terms, modes of expression, screen time, and other discrete forms of emphasis do translate into the quality of experience.

              Voiceover narrations are passive, cheap, and un-cinematic. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but pick up any introductory screenwriting book and within its opening chapters you'll see denunciation after denunciation of that sort of choice.

              Quantity doesn't equal quality - but, the cinematic and storytelling choices are a finite set, and when a filmmaker relegates something to a montage or a voiceover, they're giving a signal to the audience, a value judgement over that material's importance, and relegating it to a secondary status. That's why all those romantic comedies do the "date montage," it's because they're not interested in it in relation to the other material.

              Supergirl's debut was classic, active, immersive and cinematic. It showed heroic acts. Revealing a heroic character. Which, as you so eloquently championed the importance of, should be reasonably expected to inspire people. She literally put herself out there for the sake of others. The image of a hero in a nutshell.

              By leading by example, Supergirl has done more to help people believe they can be heroes too in nine seconds of screen time than Clark has done in nine years.

              (*except for the select few he's shared his secret with)

              If Superman's debut is similarly depicted - but then is followed by a montage of citizens saying "I'm so inspired now!" - some will experience joy, but I'll experience something like this.

              Gosh, I really can't be brief. I apologize to those of you who made it all the way through that. I'll leave the last word to others, I've said way too much already. Sorry. Maybe this was a therapeutic expulsion of the episode. Now I'm cleansed for Episode #200.
              Great post, thank you!

              Comment


              • #67
                you know what happening in Smallville reminds me of what happened in a few book:

                JLA the nail/JLA Another Nail


                :

                like SV universe other superheroes like Power girls, came before Clark but people like Lois, Perry and Jimmy didn't trust them and thought they were vigilanties who cause trouble like if Glorious Godfrey and Lex Luthor suceeded in their plan for humanity to hates Superheroes. When Superman came pubically people were inspired to believe in heroes alot more.

                Jimmy was Lex Luthor who become Mayor of Metropolis and hates superheroes, Joker killed Batgirl and Robin. Green Arrow become injured and hates superheroes as well as Hawkman dying.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ginevrakent
                  Kara's acts of heroism are superficial because she didn't inspire anyone, at least we didn't see her debut have any positive impact beyond momentary fame. Despite hiding in the shadows, Clark has already had an influential impact on the citizens of Metropolis. We've seen it onscreen just last season in episodes like Idol, Escape, and Warrior. He's encouraged young heroes like the Wonder Twins and children look up to him. Recall what Alec Abrams wrote to The Blur in Warrior:
                  "Your world is so much better than mine. I wish I could be a hero so I wouldn't get bullied at school. I wish I could be like you so I could have saved my parents. I used to think heroes weren't real until you showed up."
                  If Kara's "huge public miracle" is considered of value, why is Clark huge public save from Lazarus being ignored? Did he not publicly save over a dozen lives? Didn't the public down below clap for him the same way they clapped for Kara? Hasn't The Blur also made it to the front page of The Daily Planet?

                  So what separates Clark from Kara, in terms of the impact of their public debuts, is that Kara may have shown her face, but Clark will debut with a history and a relationship with the public he seeks to serve. What makes Clark different has already been depicted onscreen, in other words.

                  I'm not denying that significant harm was done. I believe Supergirl created an obstacle for the show to overcome that didn't have to exist in the first place because TPTB didn't carefully consider the implications of their storytelling choices. So I think you are misunderstanding me. All I've been arguing against is the idea that the power of Clark's eventual debut as Superman has been irrevocably lost. There is still hope Clark will be shown to stand out, in the end, for all of the reasons I've stated above and earlier in this thread.

                  Yes, the "someone" you are referring to is me. The voiceover suggestion was one of several suggestions, which also included the idea of using news reports or a montage of citizens and heroes around the world responding to Superman's debut. These possible options could also be the culmination of an episode or multi-episode arc focusing on Clark defeating Darkseid for all of the public to see.

                  Furthermore, you're absolutely right, voiceovers can be cheesy and poorly done. Did you think I was advocating for a poorly written and poorly executed voiceover? The whole point of including one would be to do it right like the concluding voiceovers in films like The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Dark Knight. Screenwriting manuals caution against using a lot of writing techniques because they can range from brilliant to awful, but that doesn't stop talented filmakers or even subpar television writers from using them and using them well.

                  The problem is: Kara didn't inspire people. By the end of the episode, Kara made no impact at all. In fact, since she has chosen to return to the shadows, the public will most likely turn against her as a hero who came just to show off only to abandoned them.

                  In contrast, The Blur, who will continue to be persecuted while he protects and serves the public over the next dozen or so episodes, will be greeted as the hero who stuck by them and who was there from the start.

                  You speak of Kara's heroic character being illuminated in her classic and cinematic save, but all I saw was a heroic act. Character is not something that can be gleaned from one magical save, it is something illuminated over time through patterns of behavior. Clark, as The Blur, has and will continue to demonstrate his heroic character. The imagery of his first debut may mimic Kara's but the depth of meaning behind it will be far greater because of the lives Clark has already touched. I'm reminded of this panel from the comics:




                  Kara couldn't even help people believe in heroes again let alone believe they can be heroes too. Can you point to anything in Supergirl that even remotely backs up the above claim? I am asking because, as I mentioned before, the Wonder Twins and Alec Abrams all testify to The Blur's ability to help people believe they can be heroes. Who are Kara's Zan and Jayna? In what scene in this episode can I see even one Alec Abrams?

                  Both the Wonder Twins (blogs) and Alec Abrams (fan letter) were fans of The Blur and were inspired by his heroism to be heroes themselves before Clark revealed himself to them. What about this man from Infamous?
                  For 50 years, I've watched this city get eaten alive by crime. But you picked us up, Kent. You reminded everybody what it means to be good again.
                  What about Lois in Stiletto?
                  Although you're a nameless, faceless blur to us, at this point, you're still an inspiration.
                  What about other heroes? Will any members of the JLA come out of the shadows because Kara inspired them? If they do, will they speak of her wisdom and her calm leadership? Will they talk about how she inspired them to be heroes?

                  Right, because the dialogue would be exactly as you've written it. I can tell you one thing, though, if Supergirl never happened, and all I got in the end for Clark's debut was something identical to Kara's, it would be me banging my head against the wall. I want more and I expect more. The superficial things are meaningless to me. YMMV.
                  This.

                  To me, we have Lazarus, the blur, the redblue blur- the OTHER HEROES< the saves around the planet from random heroes, saves from mysterious heroes, JSA- etc,etc..


                  People aren;t looking up to this mystery girl all that much as you'd think- this is a supernatural world, so....


                  Oh, by the way, she's not the first public hero either IIRC. At least, not to appear.

                  THe public doesn't hate the heroes in the shadowa- not everyone follows group logic.

                  Especailyl when LIVES are at stake- and the heroes deliver- it'll eb the one who shines, who'll inspire them. The one who's constant and goes the extra step.

                  Because in Smallville/Metropolis, they are used to this sort of thing.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by luthor2010
                    If Superman's debut is similarly depicted - but then is followed by a montage of citizens saying "I'm so inspired now!" - some will experience joy, but I'll experience something like this.
                    Ditto. I won't bang my head about it but I would do something like this instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIw2dsVuY4s

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by jpfort1957
                      Screwed up stories like they have now, is why alot people didn't want Kara on this program in the first place!!!!
                      Absolutely, I have nothing against her but the writing is so bad and they make her the star and Clark is just following her footsteps!! Kara teaching Clark to fly? It was pitiful

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I didn't have such a big problem with this episode as I feared that it would overshine Clark even more, and I think that if smart writing will be made in future episodes, Clark can still become the one and only and somehow uniqe guy that will be called Superman. I won't judge it just yet, cause I want to see how the rest of this season progresses and what it'll do with Clark.

                        On another note (about the writing), yes it's really poor at times, it is sad that Clark was more secure and pure-hearted during first seasons than he is now, talk about regression...

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by petitemimi
                          "Look! Up in the sky! It's... another one like that girl!"

                          LOL as much as i do NOT want to laugh my ass off, you are right! (but honestly, from what i recall the public has not seen any heroes flying, so how the hell did they react like "Ooohh a Maiden of Might - she can fly too!" what crap!)

                          Two things i will say:
                          1) Clark's coming out as Superman WILL BE WORTH OUR PATIENCE. Okay, probably not all of the vast patience we have done all these years, but hopefully they will make it such an action-filled extravaganza, and Clark will do something SO extraordinary, that his legend shall be reborn in a second!
                          2) I agree with what some people say, about the significance of the "S". Take all that "Blur" hype, everyone clamoring for the "S" guy...and then the "S" guy is in red and blue and FLYING and - as i said - doing something MUCH bigger than a pathetic, poor-CGI billboard! Fingers crossed! 19 more episodes!

                          oh, and writers...DON'T mess this one up (like the dudes at Lost), or we may end up piking you...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            After watching some episodes from S7 and looking what Kara wore there, did you think the new costume was good? Because quite frankly it looked kinda bland compared to the clothes she wore in 7.

                            http://www.marcus.es/wp-content/imax...andervoort.jpg Season 7.

                            http://splashpage.mtv.com/wp-content...mallville3.jpg Season 10.

                            And I know Supergirl uses a miniskirt in the comics but I don't know...it's not really flattering imo. I don't think miniskirts and the ability to fly over everyone really mix in pretty well, lol!

                            I actually liked Kara in "Bizarro's" ending with those long black panths. Not really the best colour but I think those sexy abs are enough skin.

                            http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_let9MVwaTH...-Season-10.jpg I liked when she wore that over the actual costume too :/

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Responding from another thread:

                              Originally posted by morrigan01
                              I don't know. Can he also say that Kara will not be one-tenth the hero Clark will one day be, despite her self--righteousness? At least a line like that would go a long way to erasing the hit Clark's hero arc took in Supergirl, something an episode like Ambush at least didn't do.
                              Just my personal opinion/interpretation, but I don't remember any moment in Supergirl where this specific idea was communicated. I know Kara continued to impart the message from Jor-El that Clark wasn't ready to defeat The Darkness, and Kara made a public debut before Clark. But my estimation of these things rose when I considered them in context of subsequent episodes this season. In other words, if Clark's hero arc took a hit in Supergirl, I think it has rebounded to a degree already.

                              Abandoned explained that Jor-El was programmed to have such an aversion to weakness and failure of any kind that he could not have the faith and support Clark needed to prepare himself to deal with the threat The Darkness posed. Supergirl had previously shown that Kara was "pure of spirit" because she had "clarity of purpose" and was not as afraid of failure as Clark was. The suggestion wasn't that Clark would and could never overcome this fear, just that he wasn't "ready" at that time. Jonathan understood that Clark's life had given him every justification for the fears and resentments he had. As Lupin similarly put it in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, "The [darkness] affect[s] you more than others because there are true horrors in your past, horrors [others] can scarcely imagine. You are not weak [...]. You have nothing to be ashamed of."

                              Still, Kara was not even shown to be able to accomplish her heroic task without Clark's help. She thought she needed to make a spectacle of herself to draw The Darkness to her, but she learned not only that being the "center of attention" can undermine such efforts--it can hurt people more than it protects them--but also that Clark had the capacity to find The Darkness all along; for it was he who had valuable information about how and when it had come to Earth and he identified its vessel in Godfrey. Also, despite Kara's insistence, that The Darkness wasn't Clark's fight, according to Patriot, she and Clark still confer on the problem with, it seems, Clark making valuable discoveries about how The Darkness is operating. Kara has also been shown to have failed as a public superhero. Not only was it never her intent to inspire anyone with her debut, but the public still distrusts heroes. In fact, I'd say anti-hero sentiment has gotten worse since her debut, and per Ambush, associating with Kara was seen as a suspicious offense while the Blur was dubbed the only hero with a "code of honor."

                              Superman's public debut is important because of what he inspires. It is a watershed moment that brings great change. As the primary target of anti-hero sentiment, as someone who's been shown uniting and inspiring JLA heroes, and as someone who will have fought his own darkness and won, Clark's already made progress building the foundation that will allow his debut to accomplish what Kara's did not. And when he debuts wearing the \S/ shield, the public will know it's been him who's been with them from the start--the one who seemed to have flown at sunrise to repair a beacon to truth and justice, the DP globe, to the applause of an impressed and grateful crowd.

                              Kara was impulsive and haughty in Supergirl. While her life experiences made her more equipped to potentially being possessed by The Darkness, they did not make her more able to find it or defeat its influence on the public or other heroes. Having not yet seen Clark's public debut, I cannot say whether or not it will dwarf Kara's. I think it will, though. He's already made progress in inspiring other heroes, leading by example, as Superman's debut always has. His willingness to stand with Oliver in Homecoming and register for the VRA in Patriot both illustrated Clark's inspirational qualities and foreshadowed how his debut will encourage others to follow. In the end, if Clark's debut is more effective because it brings positive change (unlike Kara's which accomplished nothing), and because it doesn't complicate things (like Oliver's), then Clark's debut will be superior in every way. He'll be the ultimate hero.

                              Anyway, I may be in the minority when it comes to this perspective, but I thought I'd share my thoughts nonetheless. I do respect your different point of view and hope that the show gives us both a Superman debut worthy of our gratitude and applause.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by liana
                                I happen to love Clark, and I like the Kara I saw in season 7 and I loved the Kara I saw in Bloodline.
                                The Kara from all of S7 and S8's Bloodline was a Kara that was not very much different from the Kara in Supergirl, in my opinion. From the outset, Kara has been portrayed as quite like a soldier with a mission and a penchant to obey those she perceives as her superiors. Throughout Kara's time with Clark, she has struggled to treat him with the respect we might think he deserves. She's run off without telling him what she was doing (Lara), she's shown frustration with his inability to fly (Kara, Veritas), and she's easily misplaced her trust in authority figures like her father, Zor-El, when she's made to feel needed and given a chance to prove herself. The primary reasons I believe Kara acts his way are because the way she was raised on Krypton to accept orders (destiny) without question and because she initially bonded with Kal-El as his older cousin and assigned protector.
                                LARA
                                Zor-El: I'm needed here to protect Kandor. You must protect the crystal. It contains instructions for what you must do when you rescue your cousin Kal-El. [...] Remember, Kara, a true Kryptonian embraces their destiny no matter what.

                                Clark: I'm not the one who took off and didn't tell anybody where I went.

                                Kara to Lara: Well, I'll be there [when Kal-El's born], and I'll protect him.


                                BLOODLINE
                                Kara: It was my destiny to find you and protect you, not the other way around.
                                Kara also never got the chance to fully integrate into Clark's life or human society. Her next episode after she and Clark reconciled in Lara, was the episode, Blue, in which she was disposed of in Detroit with no memory. She remained in this state until Traveler, but then in the very next episode, Veritas, she left with Brainiac for Krypton. She then spent an immeasurable amount of time in the Phantom Zone before she made a quick getaway in Bloodline. The only clear statement we have from Kara about her opinion of humans comes from Blue:
                                Kara: If it meant protecting Earth and every living creature on it. I may not have been here long, but I've learned one thing. Everything you've told me about humans is wrong. They are good people, and they're worth defending.
                                It is this sentiment which Kara carried with her into the Phantom Zone and inspired her to remain there despite an escape route. Hence, Kara learned to appreciate the value of human life as a concept, but she never got to experience it as Clark experienced it. This is why she was why Kara still had an attitude in Bloodline which took on a tone of judgment with regards to Clark and why she was disinterested in cooperating with Clark or making Earth her home:
                                Clark: If you know a way out, then why are you still here?
                                Kara:
                                I didn't want to make the same mistake that you did. Zoners got out when you left. They're just waiting for me to open the portal again.
                                Clark:
                                So you stayed here all this time, fending for your life to protect Earth?
                                Kara:
                                Your lifeline. You lose it, you die. She better be able to fight.
                                Clark:
                                She won't have to. We're sending her back.
                                Kara:
                                How many innocent lives is she worth to you?
                                Clark:
                                Why are you acting like this? What happened to you, Kara?
                                Kara:
                                The same thing that would have happened to you had you been here for more than a day. The portal stays closed.


                                Kara: I don't fit in here. My journey is somewhere else.
                                Kara also ends Bloodline with a farewell, telling Clark that she had a mission to accomplish alone. Kara also gives Clark what he calls a "family lecture" in which she seems to question Clark's doubts about rebuilding his Fortress with the reclaimed crystal and about telling Lois his secret. She reminds Clark that while her path was to restore their bloodline, his path was "on Earth, living amongst the humans and inspiring mankind." About a year later in Supergirl, Kara still seems eager to delineate between what she's supposed to do and what Clark's supposed to do.

                                Therefore, I personally can't say that I saw Kara as acting much differently than the way she was portrayed in her previous appearances on the show. Her personality and overall dynamic with Clark has always lacked a certain level of warmth, since both struggle with their sense of superiority (in terms of age and experience) and independence, particularly Kara who has always seemed to prefer working solo.

                                However, I hated the Kara I saw in Supergirl. For me, she was arrogant. She sided with a machine over the cousin she claimed to love. She purposely had no intention to have any kind of contact with him just because said machine, that in the past was completely against her, told her she should cut Clark out of her life. I mean, really? What is loving and caring about that?
                                My perception of Kara in Supergirl in relation to Clark is aligned somewhat with how Lucy was portrayed in relation to Lois in Ambush.
                                Lois: I’m not happy that you went behind our backs. Again. But I do get trying to protect Dad. Our larger than life hero needs someone to protect him? Who wouldn’t want to do that?
                                Lucy: I should have told you what was going on. But I thought that if I helped Dad on my own, he’d stop seeing me as...
                                Lois:... the Troublemaker. Part of me sort of liked the fact that you turned into the Troublemaker because I was finally able to be the Good One.
                                Kara--ever the soldier looking for an officer to command her and a mission to complete--since both are which relate to her having the kind of "clarity of purpose" that potentially kept The Darkness from possessing her, eagerly went from completing her mission to find her mother to completing her new mission from Jor-El. With neither her father (who inspired her behavior in S7) nor her mother (who inspired her behavior post-Bloodline) left to direct her, Kara followed her new marching orders from Jor-El with earnest. In fact, Kara wasn't that different from the way Clark acted at the start of S9 when, in Savior, Clark faced Chloe's frustration that he had not kept in touch with her for some of the very same reasons (i.e. cutting attachments that can affect the decisions one has to make).

                                As Brainiac told Kara in Veritas, she was raised by a very "stoic race," and so giving her cousin the cold shoulder in her obedient attempt to complete a mission probably would've seemed sensible and justified. We know that their were tender emotions under Kara's facade in Supergirl, because she admits regret for hurting Clark ("I didn't want to hurt you") as a result of her efforts to abide by Jor-El's wishes.

                                It must have been flattering to be asked to do something to protect Earth and protect her cousin by a father/general type figure from the home planet she missed so dearly after so many years of being told her destiny was to protect Kal-El, and then finding he didn't really need it because he was all grown up. This seems especially true given Kara has, in the past, shown a willingness to face evil and regret for not doing it when it involved her loved ones.
                                BLUE
                                Lara: I won't let your father hurt my son.
                                Kara: Neither will I. Give it to me. I'll do it. [...] if you fail, he'll kill you. And you mean way too much for me to ever let that happen.

                                VERITAS
                                Kara (about Lana getting attacked by Brainiac): It was supposed to be me.
                                It's this logic which led to Kara's actions to take on an air of arrogance and insensitivity. Nonetheless, Kara was quick to point out to Clark in Supergirl, that she did miss her cousin and that she need Clark to trust that she was "doing this for [him]." In short, as I watched Kara in Supergirl, I had two very distinct impressions. On the one hand, I did perceive her personality and actions as arrogant and unkind. On the other hand, I felt they were very much in character and were the result of genuinely beneficent motives, however misguided.

                                She said she didn't want Clark to help her in the fight, and yet, if it wasn't for Clark she wouldn't even have figured out that Godfrey was the one they should look for. Clark figured it out, not her. She was also only able to find Godfrey because she used WT, and Clark was the one that brought her there, but she never addressed that maybe he could help her. No, she was like, 'stay away and don't get involved'. Considering that Kara knew how the darkness operated, shouldn't she have realized that wasn't the moment to turn her back on Clark? Shouldn't she have realized that what Clark and the world needed was for her to NOT listen to Jor-el and do what Brainiac 5 did? You know try to believe in him, for a change and help him to overcome his problems. [...]

                                So, everything that Kara did in that episode, towards Clark, was the WRONG thing to do. But she was so convinced that she was the one destined to do it, that she didn't even realize that she might need help, and that, regardless of her opinion in the matter, she couldn't just lock Clark in a tower and pretend there was no way the darkness would overcome him. If she believed Clark was such a threat, the RIGHT way to handle it would never be to let him be. It should have been to HELP him, and be there for him. In my book that is being reckless, arrogant and blind to threat they were dealing with. If Clark, being powerful as he is, can be possessed any time, how can she even think of NOT help him overcome his own darkness. It baffles me.
                                Kara didn't consider sticking around Clark to help him overcome his own darkness because she didn't want to put him in jeopardy and she didn't have the proper wisdom to assist him properly. As someone who had not spent a great deal of time on Earth with Clark, she didn't have the insight and empathy into Clark's soul--his experiences, his emotions--which have helped him overcome his own darkness. Furthermore, because of the vivid nature of her debut, Kara effectively put herself in the same position with Clark that Oliver put himself in with the JLA because of his own debut. Kara tried to compensate by putting on the wig and glasses, but teaming up in general would have been risky considering the potential for the media, the government, and The Darkness to easily get to Clark simply by seeking her out. Nevertheless, based on Patriot it appears Kara and Clark worked something out in terms of collaboration.

                                They ripped Clark down to build Kara up. And that is exactly why so many Clark's fans dread her return.
                                My interpretation of the intent of the episode differs. I don't believe the intention was to build Kara up so she would look better in comparison to Clark. I believe they depicted Kara the way they did to further flesh out their main villain arc of the year, which is directly tied to Clark's personal emotional development. They wanted to illustrate the way a person can be protected from The Darkness, for example. With Kara, the key to keeping her impervious, as she was alleged to be, was being completely consumed by her mission and her confidence in her ability to complete that mission. With Lois, the key was her unerring faith in the Blur.

                                Clark had neither a clarity of purpose or faith in himself (or anything) because of his sense that doing what he felt was right could actually be wrong. It's for this reason that Lex was able to provoke Clark into doing the thing which made Jor-El question Clark's ability to be Earth's savior:
                                Lex: Deep down inside, you know you brought death and destruction. The only reason anyone ever calls you a hero is because you clean up the disasters you unleash.
                                Since Clark's reaction to these accusations was to reflect on actions of his that neither Lex nor Jor-El had criticized (e.g. destroying "an entire building"), I believe Clark knew it was the truth, and had been for a long time. In fact, Homecoming made it very clear that guilt has been motivating Clark for years:
                                Clark: You were right, Dad. I never stopped blaming myself for what happened to you. It was a way not to have to let go. It’s exactly what I have to do to move on. Get rid of the darkness of my past that I’ve been carrying around. Be there for the people who need me now.
                                He's been wrong to blame himself, or take responsibility for, those things out of his control. This means Clark should not be carrying around the weight of other people's poor choices and Clark should not be carrying around the weight of events that he did not directly choose to make happen. Which is why I'm puzzled by these comments of yours:

                                Why wouldn't they, when that episode pretty much destroyed their favorite character and turned null and void all evolution he had the last years? They went as far as to utterly destroy Clark's selfless sacrifice in Salvation, but making him responsible to unleash Darkseid on Earth. Was that even necessary? I mean, I know they wanted to show us how great and amazing Kara is, but was it necessary to make every single sacrifice Clark has made in his life useless? Did they need to go that far?
                                Clark is not responsible for unleashing Darkseid on Earth. He did not knowingly choose to release Darkseid, and he certainly wasn't responsible for what Granny Goodness has been doing at her orphanage for decades. Besides, if you want to play the blame game on the basis of chain of events and nothing more, then you might as well blame Tess for activating the orb and Jor-El for creating the orb. Even Clark, who typically blames himself needlessly for things, didn't even blame himself for it and neither did Kara or anyone else. Why? Because it wasn't his fault.

                                No, they didn't. But they wanted to show how great and wonderful Kara was, and the only way they found to do that, when these past years have shown us Clark as the selfless and good one, was to tell us that he was responsible for everything going wrong in the planet, and Kara was the greateste hero of all heros, and Clark was unworthy of breathing the same air she did.
                                You're going to have to help me with this, because Supergirl only depicted Kara as having two strengths Clark did not: She can fly and she has clarity of purpose which makes her potentially immune to The Darkness. She has been shown to be able to do these things primarily because she did not have comparable life experiences that Clark has had. Martian Manhunter has said repeatedly that Clark's experience growing up with humans has given him his greatest strength as well as his greatest weakness. Clark having a wavering soul because his confidence is easily shaken as a result of so many losses in his past--losses for which Jonathan in Lazarus even sympathized--is not a something which diminishes Clark in any way.

                                In fact, Jonathan said he was proud of his son in Lazarus and Lois echoed this sentiment in Supergirl. I think it's important to remember that Supergirl featured two women in Clark's life. It's hard to say that the episode as a whole was trying to communicate that Kara was the greatest of all heroes when Lois' story was running parallel to hers, and Lois was shown to repeatedly question Kara's actions--actions even Kara came to regret by the end--and to praise Clark's Blur.

                                Clark's problem was the darkness of his past was preventing him from being able to have faith in himself and take heart from the faith others, like Lois, had in him. He not only blamed himself for Jonathan's death, but he also blamed himself for not living up to the standards he felt Jonathan had set in terms of morals and Jor-El had set in terms of strength.
                                Jonathan: Come on, son. I was so far away from perfect. [...] We can't make excuses for the dark stains on our hearts, son.

                                Clark on Jor-El: I used to think that Jor-El was this strong unshakable force. Kind of like I thought was supposed to be.
                                As Abandoned and Patriot revealed, Clark's fear of failure is Clark's key dilemma in his fight to resist The Darkness. Both Jonathan and Kara spoke of it in Lazarus and Supergirl, respectively:
                                Jonathan: We're all confronted with trials, son, but the true measure of a man is how he chooses to react in the face of those trials.

                                Kara: Failure is something that we all have to live with, but it's how you overcome it that defines you.
                                Clark's been trying to pass every test that's been thrown his way since he's become more aware of this particular issue. When he said goodbye to his dad and stood with Oliver in Homecoming, recruited Tess and told Lois his secret in Isis, shared Swann's journal with Lois in Harvest, and shared his knowledge of The Darkness in Patriot, Clark was shown to confront his fear of failure.
                                Lois: You think you're supposed to be invincible, and it terrifies you that you're not.
                                Clark: Lois, how can I protect people, protect you, if I can't even protect myself from The Darkness?
                                Lois: By not trying to do it alone.
                                In other words, Clark's ability to withstand The Darkness rests in his ability to have other people help him share its burden. Carter Hall mused that Lois is someone that would make Clark's burdens easier to bear, and Lex's clone illustrated this rather clearly in Lazarus when he quoted The Scarlett Letter saying, "And would that I might endure his agony, as well as mine," adding that the "S" Lois wore, as Hester Prynne did in the novel, was a mark of shame.

                                In sum, I completely disagree with your statement that Supergirl depicted Clark as "responsible for everything wrong in the planet" and Kara as "the greatest hero of all heroes." From my perspective, they showed no one, not even Clark, assigning blame for Darkseid's presence on Clark. They also pointed out in this episode, as well as subsequent ones, how detrimental it is for Clark to blame himself unfairly. I'm reminded of Jor-El's hologram in Abandoned and the lesson Clark learned from it:
                                Jor-El: The ship I designed to carry you to your destiny can only hold one Kryptonian. One who has so much potential. So unlike your father.

                                Clark: He blames himself for losing our home. All the weight I thought I had on my shoulders, he was carrying something so much heavier.
                                Lois: And he didn’t want you to carry it with him.
                                The message is that one becomes vulnerable to The Darkness when one fears failure or fears looking weak so much that one becomes weighed down with all of one's burdens due to fear of sharing their load with others. Only by not blaming oneself for things outside one's control, and by giving up control and shunning isolation through risk taking and intimacy with others, can one be fortified against The Darkness.

                                To me, Kara wasn't shown to be the "greatest hero of all heroes" because Jor-El was shown as trusting her as someone pure enough to confront Darkseid. At most, Kara was shown as being capable, not because of anything innate or anything she worked for, but because she didn't have the same life experiences or needs that her cousin has. Again, as Martian Manhunter has said the latter form Clark's greatest strength, because they've made him an inspirational and moral future Superman, and his greatest weakness, but only if he lets it by not taking risks, not living in the moment, and not accessing support from others. In Supergirl, not only was Kara shown to learn a thing or two from Clark (e.g. Watchtower, secret identity), but also Lois was there to champion Clark as the "greatest hero of all heroes;" her faith has not been shown to be misplaced. Since the episode, Clark has been succeeding in ways that Kara has not. Most importantly, he's inspiring and leading other heroes.

                                Originally posted by liana
                                How can people even relate to a character they have barely seen on the show, and consider that character amazing enough to justify Jor-el choosing her over Clark?
                                Jor-El chose Kara because she was pure like his AI machine was. She had no regrets, was completely mission-oriented, and had no humanity to speak of. She was a good little solider just like Granny Goodness' Furies.

                                The answer is they couldn't and they shouldn't. So, the easiest solution, for the writers, was to nullify everything Clark has ever done in the show, so that Kara could be seen as the greatest of the greatest.
                                I'm still baffled how Supergirl accomplished the two statements in bold above.

                                But they felt the need to destroy Clark's past and his sacrifices to the point that I can't even rewatch Salvation again, because it reminds me of what they did with him. They destroyed one of the best episodes of the series in my eyes.
                                I'm still unclear about how Salvation was ruined. Clark still saved the world from Zod's dominion, and it wasn't his fault that The Darkness escaped. Jor-El was upset that Clark chose to give up his destiny in his attempt to save Earth from Zod, but only because by removing any knowledge of his "frailties and failures" (Abandoned) from his AI form, Jor-El unknowingly removed the emotional component that would have helped him empathize with Clark's decision to martyr himself in Salvation and empathize with the ego that led to Clark attacking Lex's clone in Lazarus.

                                I will always welcome Bloodline Kara back, but keep Supergirl Kara away from my screen.
                                In the end, I'm indifferent to the notion of Kara possibly coming back. Like you, my attitude depends on how it would be handled.

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