Queen Lisa

[lemoncrumble]

Hmmm Well didn't Anna say she wanted to study the 5C to get inside info on the enemy and find out how to convert them back? It seems there are very important (to Anna) Vs that are 5C. Also, to me that little gesture Lisa made to Joshua (touching his chin) looked sort of like the beginnings of her own bliss. Not sure though, it was really interesting to note.

And it was so unprecedented Marcus had to ask why they don't destroy him like they always do. Yes, she wanted Ryan to study how he turn 5th Column and how turning him back. But she has little interest of whatever plan he may got as a Fifth Column and didn't care: he's a guinea pig such as his child. She didn't need the other 5Cs alive.
About Lisa, Anna often hold her chin the very same way. It's very protocolar and/or as affectionate as a V can get. To create the Bliss, Anna had to hold Ryan's head by both hands and hold him close. The two movements are entirely different to me.

I don't think they need to fall for Lisa's Bliss at all. I think what's happening is, as with any normal political disrupt in history, the people are looking for a newer, more accommodating leader. Anna is this emotionless (or seemingly) queen that follows an animalistic/Amoral set of principles in a time when many Vs are adopting morals which would make Lisa a better candidate as leader.

You're assuming they're many V's changing side. Marcus said there was incidents in all the ship, yes, but they were all isolated. Do they outnumbered the loyalists ? I hardly think so. Plus they tend to kill themselves, which doesn't help .
I doubt people are looking for new Leader. The loyalist already have Anna, they're ready to die to prove their devotion to her. Look the pattern: the more the loyalist are scared of the 5C, the more Anna give them Bliss. She didn't use it as a way to control them per se, but to appease them ("it's a gift"). There's no indication that those who support Anna don't share her opinions and principles : Dale disliked humans on his own, Marcus condoned torture, Torture guy tortures, etc. The only difference with Marcus is that, while he had no problem to skin a traitor or to experiment on unwilling humans, he's dubious about killing innocents V's. But for everything else, he backed up Anna even when she herself lost her mind.
5C's aren't particulary looking for a new Leadership: they are against it that's why they rebel. I doubt protecting mankind, a specie they barely knew, is what only drove them. True, they kind of John May's fanboys but after his death, his followers scattered around the world without a care but for themselves. Ryan's friend (who cured his arms) hide himself, Cyrus defected.They didn't try to bring a new Leader: they are pretty much individualist and self-centered (like reptilians ) maybe that's what Anna's Bliss about: bonding her people around her, like a queen bee.

What sealed the deal was when she asserted herself into the 5C's plan and helped make everything work. It showed just how powerful she is, in fact, I think that whole night could not have happened without her help.

She saved her boyfriend. Yes, she played a great part of the plan, mainly after Joshua brought Tyler up and because of Chad, but that doesn't make her a leader. She gave the grenade to Erica but she followed Joshua's instructions. It doesn't make her powerful, at the very best, she's well-placed enough to be valuable asset just like Joshua said she will.

[annas son]

hmm

[gtbROX]

And it was so unprecedented Marcus had to ask why they don't destroy him like they always do. Yes, she wanted Ryan to study how he turn 5th Column and how turning him back. But she has little interest of whatever plan he may got as a Fifth Column and didn't care: he's a guinea pig such as his child. She didn't need the other 5Cs alive.

Keep in mind, they did happen to bring Joshua alive again, and you can't say that they didn't do it to study him. And when Anna talked about studying the 5C she talked about it in plurality. "Gain insight into our enemy" she wanted to see what made them, as a whole, rebel against her, resist her bliss. And when analysts typically do studies, there are many subjects/victims, however you call it. They aren't going to just study one 5C member and base all their conclusions off of that one individual. One V might turn 5C for a completely different reason than another (we have yet to find out what converted Joshua) and because of that it might be different to change each individual 5C back to normality. This is why I think she really meant studying many 5C members, not just Ryan or Joshua, but I do agree that she might kill off the less significant 5C members.

You're assuming they're many V's changing side. Marcus said there was incidents in all the ship, yes, but they were all isolated. Do they outnumbered the loyalists ? I hardly think so. Plus they tend to kill themselves, which doesn't help .

There actually are man Vs becoming 5C...
There is a reason why the 5C is such a giant concern to Anna that she sets aside a V taskforce, and human taskforce to tackle them. She even laid soldier eggs just to fight against them. If they weren't such a growing problem she wouldn't have made them her "top priority." Also, in one of her asides to Marcus, she did say that their biggest issue is the fact that many Vs ARE turning 5C. No they don't outnumber the loyal Vs, at the moment, but keep in mind that Anna wouldn't be worried about them for no reason. The only reason 5C seems small is that we only see the stories of a small group of connected ones. If you recall, Ryan mentioned that the 5C is a "sleeping giant." Keep that in mind.

I doubt people are looking for new Leader. The loyalist already have Anna, they're ready to die to prove their devotion to her. Look the pattern: the more the loyalist are scared of the 5C, the more Anna give them Bliss. She didn't use it as a way to control them per se, but to appease them ("it's a gift"). There's no indication that those who support Anna don't share her opinions and principles : Dale disliked humans on his own, Marcus condoned torture, Torture guy tortures, etc. The only difference with Marcus is that, while he had no problem to skin a traitor or to experiment on unwilling humans, he's dubious about killing innocents V's. But for everything else, he backed up Anna even when she herself lost her mind.

I was talking about the 5C, not the loyal Vs. Even the loyal Vs recognize Lisa as a future queen since she is Anna's heir to the throne. Keep in mind how their leadership structure works and that they haven't yet mastered immortality.

5C's aren't particulary looking for a new Leadership: they are against it that's why they rebel. I doubt protecting mankind, a specie they barely knew, is what only drove them. True, they kind of John May's fanboys but after his death, his followers scattered around the world without a care but for themselves. Ryan's friend (who cured his arms) hide himself, Cyrus defected.They didn't try to bring a new Leader: they are pretty much individualist and self-centered (like reptilians ) maybe that's what Anna's Bliss about: bonding her people around her, like a queen bee.

They aren't against leadership...
They're against what their current leadership is doing, and what it plans for the humans. Keep in mind, the 5C is trying to save humanity, that is their only goal if you recall what Erica, Ryan, Joshua have said; It wasn't to create a leader-less social structure. 5C aren't individualistic just because they scattered in fear. One of the reasons there are 5C Vs is because they gained human emotions which include love just as much as it includes fear. What they were lacking at the beginning of the series is leadership. If you recall, 5C didn't actually begin to pose a threat to Anna and the loyal Vs until Erica, Ryan, Father Jack, Georgie, and Hobbes got together and started organizing their plans. Another reason you can't call 5C self-centered is because the very mechanism that caused many of them to become 5C (the Vs) is the formation of their emotional bond to someone or something. Ryan->Valerie, John May->wife/stepson.

She saved her boyfriend. Yes, she played a great part of the plan, mainly after Joshua brought Tyler up and because of Chad, but that doesn't make her a leader. She gave the grenade to Erica but she followed Joshua's instructions. It doesn't make her powerful, at the very best, she's well-placed enough to be valuable asset just like Joshua said she will.

She didn't just save her boyfriend; she saved the 5C as a whole. All the characters, Anna and Erica especially, have stated that allowing the soldier eggs to hatch would mean the end of the 5C. Right after Joshua brought Tyler up, she still refused, but after that amount of time she realized what the right thing to do was. "You asked me to choose a side, and I did" (Lisa to Joshua). She didn't just do it for Tyler, she picked a side that she felt was right. It does, in fact, make her very powerful, and Joshua even stated after Lisa failed her empathy test. Joshua had to choose between letting Anna know and killing Lisa or hiding it and letting her live. He stated that at some point he'll need her help, and that she could become a strong ally.

[lemoncrumble]

Keep in mind, they did happen to bring Joshua alive again, and you can't say that they didn't do it to study him.

Actually I can say everything I want because we don't know why they bring Joshua back. We don't know if Marcus is acting on his own or if Anna ordered it, we don't know if it has to do with Parker's poison. What we know is that they have skinned every single 5C that came to their sight, without a care of what motivated their actions. We know that Marcus was to have Ryan killed like any other V's. We know 5C in the mothership are ready to die for their ideals, which make the idea to study Joshua rather unlikely: he'll just be another Georgie. It's not hard to assume Ryan is given a treatment of favor because he fathered a child to a human female, even Anna noted it. It's very likely it's easier to conduct an observation on someone who will remain alive for his child than to countless of self-sacrifying 5C. And yes, I think Anna will use the results on Ryan and made a example out of it.

There actually are man Vs becoming 5C...
There is a reason why the 5C is such a giant concern to Anna that she sets aside a V taskforce, and human taskforce to tackle them. She even laid soldier eggs just to fight against them. If they weren't such a growing problem she wouldn't have made them her "top priority." Also, in one of her asides to Marcus, she did say that their biggest issue is the fact that many Vs ARE turning 5C. No they don't outnumber the loyal Vs, at the moment, but keep in mind that Anna wouldn't be worried about them for no reason. The only reason 5C seems small is that we only see the stories of a small group of connected ones. If you recall, Ryan mentioned that the 5C is a "sleeping giant." Keep that in mind.

You do forget what bothers Anna exactly: it has less to do with the number than with their capacity to unify. The more they are, the more likely it becomes, that's what she says. It doesn't give an indication in numbers. But keep in mind loyalists fear the V's, it has been stated by Marcus on differents occasions. To them, 5C are a threat to their survival (the conquest of Earth is a matter of survival), a threat to their way of life and let's face it they are pretty much terrorists in a loyalist's point of view. The risk isn't for Anna to fall but for the whole society of Visitors collapsing under a civil war: "there will be no peace". It's like rebels and terrorists on Earth: not very popular, not a lot of them but if organized, they can create a hell of a problem and be regarded as "sleeping giant".

I was talking about the 5C, not the loyal Vs. Even the loyal V recognize Lisa as a future queen since she is Anna's heir to the throne. Keep in mind how their leadership structure works and that they haven't yet mastered immortality.

If Lisa was to be outed as 5C, she'll be skinned, heiress or not, that's how their structure works. Everyone has to follow the rules, no exceptions, that's how their structure works. Monarchy doesn't mean the ruler can do everything he wants, and certainly not that the loyalty of his people is inate or they wouldn't have a 5C to begin with. A queen with humans emotions goes against what loyalists hold for true for who know how many times, that it is a sickness. It will inevitably lead to a Sixth Column

They aren't against leadership...

They're looking for leadership now that their life is in danger. In time of peace, the 5C on the ground don't have anything but a loose organization and they did little to create one. Cyrus betrayed his friend, Ryan's friend fled, Leah was doing very little on her own until Ryan came along and was adamant of doing as less as possible. They protected John's stepson so well, a loyalist becomes his girlfriend for who knows how long. To have an iconic figure as John May is a poor substitute for leadership.
On the mothership, Joshua only saw Lisa as an asset, while Samuel wouldn't have minded if she was killed. David decided on his own to denounce himself.

She didn't just save her boyfriend; she saved the 5C as a whole. All the characters, Anna and Erica especially, have stated that allowing the soldier eggs to hatch would mean the end of the 5C. Right after Joshua brought Tyler up, she still refused, but after that amount of time she realized what the right thing to do was. "You asked me to choose a side, and I did" (Lisa to Joshua). She didn't just do it for Tyler, she picked a side that she felt was right.

There's no indication she chose this side for any other reason than to protect Tyler (and mankind, I give you that one). Between the two moments, there's no indication she suddenly discovered her mother was more tyrannical than before.

It does, in fact, make her very powerful, and Joshua even stated after Lisa failed her empathy test. Joshua had to choose between letting Anna know and killing Lisa or hiding it and letting her live. He stated that at some point he'll need her help, and that she could become a strong ally.

No it makes her a good asset. Joshua said Erica was a strong ally, and said Lisa was to be a good asset.

[bobsuncorp]

If I am remembering my basic science, certain Bees are fed a certain compound (Royal Jelly is how I remember it but I might be wrong) by the Queen while they are larvae which turns them into the next generation of Queen. I am pretty sure it is the same with insects, something is done to them in the gestation stage that makes them special, as opposed to worker drones. I think that this is what happened to Lisa. Ryan referred to himself as a "Worker" so it seems they are following the insect model closer than any other, as we have already seen the soldiers.

If that is the case, then Lisa has the same psychic abilities as Anna, or at least she will have them when she is older. Hell maybe that's why Tyler loves her, and it has nothing to do with the fact that she looks like Laura Vandervoort. Ok maybe not, but she may use that ability to keep him interested when she is unmasked.

[Lauren_17]

Of course they aren't bugs, but they are also not human. They adopted a very insect way of living, which has been very efficient for their species (so far). For instance, insect colonies have a Queen, and each worker knows their part to ensure efficiency. The V's aren't burdened by human emotions or trivial human things. Each V has a purpose; Anna is the Queen; Lisa will be the Successor; there are Soldier V's, medical V's, Worker V's...ect.

So I can see how it would remind people of being very insect like. I just think they adopted that hierarchy for efficiency.

[Lauren_17]

I know how an ant colony works. Funny, they seem more commie-like to me.

Well, you are right. There are no class systems with the V's, that is communism.

[Lauren_17]

But the V's say they feel emotions; just not to the extent that humans do, or they have a different way of expressing them.

For instance, Anna has been affectionate toward Lisa.She has stated that she was proud of her, and touched her affectionately. Even after she sucker-punched Lisa, she knelt down and tired to reassure Lisa.

Now of course, Anna knows how to bring on the manipulation, and that was seen when Lisa was brought into the V clinic, but if she isn't trying to serve HER greater good of HER species and fooling the humans, I think somewhere, there may be genuine emotion in Anna for her kind and Lisa; just not towards humans, which to us humans, makes her evil.

[bobsuncorp]

They may not be instectoid but neither are they terrestrial. It is a mistake to make comparisons to the social behaviour of our own earth based species, far better to work from observed facts. They have 1 Queen (on Earth at least) 1 sucessor, lots of workers, lots of soldiers. It's a caste society or at least that is the closest word we have to describe what we know so far.

[Lauren_17]

Yes, it is a caste system!

Funny, what will happen to the hierarchy when Lisa gets preggers with Tyler's baby? Queen V, we have a problem.

I would honestly hope Lisa does not get preggers with Tyler's baby--at least not so soon. Even though Anna is scary, evil and manipulative, I can't help but like her. I wouldn't want to see her dethroned so fast.