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Regrets over the instant loss of Gabriel's 3rd faction & how gods were handled

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  • Regrets over the instant loss of Gabriel's 3rd faction & how gods were handled

    Loved the god convention ep, but it still could have been handled better. I'm sorry but Gabriel being "in the game" as a 3rd party could have made the series a whole lot cooler and they killed that off instantly. Then the battle for the heart and mind of the 4th archangel, whoever that is, could have been afoot. And then you'd have had the 4 horsemen (or what's left of them, thanks to the boys) facing off against the 4 archangels (or what's left of them), each with their own agendas and waiting to see if God would gravitate toward the agenda of any particular archangel (perhaps Gabriel!!!) or waiting to see if God would come up with his own Answer like the head of household can do on Family Feud. And though Kali, my fav god, did survive, I would have liked to see the show take her words more seriously about how there are other gods and christianity doesn't get to destroy the world. I'd rather see some kind of power relationship between the gods defined better-----so instead of Lucifer proving that he's the heavyweight and the rest of the gods are all chumps, which is kind of insulting, what if instead there'd been a plot device to explain how on a normal day Kali and Lucifer would be evenly matched but Lucy got the upper hand because he has extra momentum currently due to the christian apocalypse being in motion. Something like that.

  • #2
    I was really surprised, but pleased, to see hindu gods in this episode. Their stories just didn't make sense, Gabriel and Kali having a thing in the past was funny as Kali has/had a husband who is a lot more powerful than her (even though she killed him.... something like that) and her son(Ganesh) was there. It was all a mess, don't think the writers did their homework, but it was good.

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    • #3
      At first I thought it was amusing and it was a nice idea to bring in other religions...

      ...but it didn't work all that well. I too was heavily dissapointed.

      It's difficult. I loved seeing Lucifer getting his hands dirty/bloody, but I hated how easily an angel could defeat 'gods'... it kind of felt like christian supremecy.

      I loved Gabrielle, and his speech about being on the human's side was great. But I too thought it was cut down too quickly. I would have liked to have seen a scene with him and Cas. Maybe Gabrielle would have a few more ideas at least before he died.

      Also entirely unfussed about the ending. Just kinda wishing the whole 'collect the rings and lock the box' thing had been introduced a lot sooner, because now it feels like it's a rush. Not to mention it's a bit cheesy, and after all that time spent researching, they didn't come up with that themselves? Or Bobby?

      Surely, instead of wasting Gabrielle, they could have just had Bobby come up with that plan after finding it in some very special book?

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      • #4
        Well the thing is a lot of the God's derive their powers from faith, the more people you have believing in you, the more powerful you are. At this point in time though Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the three major ones, all who believe in one God, that's a lot of people across the world, that's a lot of power if power=people who believe. Which is what I think the episode was going for. Gabrielle wasn't much of a fighter from what I saw, so it makes sense that he wouldn't have lasted long, but it showed another side to Lucifer as well, and makes me wonder if he rids the world of human's and demons...what will he do to Angel's?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
          It's difficult. I loved seeing Lucifer getting his hands dirty/bloody, but I hated how easily an angel could defeat 'gods'... it kind of felt like christian supremecy.
          Well, from the start, with the existence of Hell as a form of afterlife, there already was a level of Christian supremacy on the show. Then, with the revelation that Heaven/God existed, then it set in stone that God created the universe, etc. As such, Lucifer (being the second most powerful archangel), would logically be the third most powerful being in all of creation. The pagan gods simply gain power from faith. God is shown to be all-powerful (so far), and the angels derive their powers from Heaven/Grace, regardless of people's faith.

          Of course, I don't mean to bash on other religions, but it was obvious (to me) that Lucifer would utterly obliterate them. Gabriel probably could have as well, but he was reserving himself, from the start.

          None of those pagan gods could transport Dean and Sam, with the snap of their fingers, even though they were OBVIOUSLY tracking them.....which is why they had to trick them into that trap.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
            It's difficult. I loved seeing Lucifer getting his hands dirty/bloody, but I hated how easily an angel could defeat 'gods'... it kind of felt like christian supremecy.
            I agree. The Gods seemed so much less powerful than the stories. I mean, you figure a God trumps an Angel, right? Even the Morningstar? Yet, Lucifer easily beats them. Which yeah, if you go by Judeo-Christian teachings would be true I guess but if that is true then how are the other Gods event there?

            I just think it could have been handled better (and should have been brought up sooner, frankly!).

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            • #7
              I suppose, in SPN lore, the Judeo-Christian entities(such as God Himself and the angels) are the most powerful villains alive, so maybe that's why they had it so that Lucifer easily killed them? I don't mind it at all really, as I don't really care about Kali or Ganesh, or even Odin, lol. Lucifer didn't kill Thor, so that's all that matters to me, haha.

              And, was anyone confused that, when Dean stabbed Zao Shen, his godly essence faded out of the vessel, but when Lucifer killed off them all, the same thing didn't happen? Was it because it would've been to much CGI or...maybe Lucifer developed their godly-like powers after he killed them without use the proper tools to kill them(as Dean used on Zao Shen)?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Call_Me_Ishmael
                I suppose, in SPN lore, the Judeo-Christian entities(such as God Himself and the angels) are the most powerful villains alive, so maybe that's why they had it so that Lucifer easily killed them?
                Yeah, I guess it fits with the mythology of the show but it still bugs me a little, I guess. *shrugs*

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                • #9
                  Well I am pretty sure that Lucifer said something along the lines "And you call yourself gods", implying they arent actually gods.

                  Sure, they are supernatural beings, who have been worshiped by the religions that are based around them, but they are no more of a god than the Gouald from Stargate are...basically they have taken the role of being a "God" to their own religions so far that they cannot conceive to call themselves anything else.

                  Also, remember that Zac said "Lucifer is powerful in ways that describes description." In no way did I find it suprising he was able to rip into them so easily. I was quite happy to see it actually, as we have never really seen an angel fight anything other than demons and other angels.

                  One final thought, while I will admit that the way he ripped into them kind of cut down the religions they were based on, this is Supernatural. The show is based strongly around God being the creator of everything. We have heaven, we have hell, and we have the Earth. While Cas himself said that the bible got a lot of things wrong, at this point to think that any of those "Gods" could of stood up to what, in Supernatural's sense atleast, was one of the 3 most powerful beings in all existance (the most being God, and the other being Michael, whether one is stronger or not has never fully been shown I dont think, but my money is on Michael), would contradict what has been said these last few seasons.

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                  • #10
                    a major problem I have with this ep is, Kali, says they were there first and there are billions of them. Lucifer agrees that they were there first when he says they forfeited the planet, if they were there first in the billions and had the earth under their power before the Angels showed up, what put them there? Something other than them being supernatural creatures and full of themselves let them think they were gods to begin with, if they were on Earth before the Angels then that would imply they were there before people as Angels appear even in the Garden of Eden when the first people were created. This started out as a good idea but needed to be fleshed out a little more. As far as them being less powerful due to worship, it has already been mentioned that some of them are from religions that are still around and the others would still be just as powerful now as they were then thanks to Wicca and neo-pagan religions all over the world some that worship them individually or some that see all gods as one and use all their names in ritual and prayer, some Wiccans are more devout followers of their religion than most christians are with theirs, and practice some form of worship everyday and sometimes throughout the day with little personal rites and spells. Another thing that got me was Odin, he is Baldrs farther and far more powerul than he is as a chief god and god of wisdom and magic. He is supposed to know all the secrets of the universe and be able to see the future, so why would he even show up without some knowledge of the outcome or a plan to change it? Norse gods aren't immortal and are killed all the time so them dying was not a big stretch, Greek/Roman gods on the other hand are immortal and can only be imprisoned according to their myths. the only way this makes sense is that God is also all the other creator gods of the other pantheons and the gods are his children as well, Death talks about all the worlds out there God could have originally given the Earth to the gods but then when he made humans he decided they would have Earth, as it is described as his greatest creation planet-wise. The gods might have thought these frail creatures were a gift to be their play things so God sends in the Angels to protect them and then the Watchers start sleeping with human women and teaching people the secrets of heaven like magic and fire and metal smithing so they were banished by the flood and God started over with the decendents of Noah as Adams brood seemed to be just worthless as Lucifer said they were, now in the midst of all this Lilith (being the first woman expelled from the Garden because Adams punk ass couldn't deal with her wanting to be his equal) was being worshipped as a goddess, which holds true to her myth first being a woman and some worshiping her later before she becomes a she-demon, after or during the flood Lucifer may have convinced her to come with him to escape the flood, which would be about the time he is locked away since he was cast out long ago. I don't know it took me about 15 minutes to think that up with aid of remembering things from real myths you figure a bunch of high paid writer could have done much better with months/years to come up with something

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                    • #11
                      Yeah!!!!!!! all of......that.

                      Also, something I found out while designing a chess set with hindu gods as the pieces: -----it's impossible to make everybody happy! If you put one god as a knight and another as a rook, the people who prefer the first god over the second will complain that he/she should be the more powerful piece, and vice versa. So maybe the show's makers kind of knew that no matter how much effort they put into this "other gods" episode, it was still going to miff some people. So they may have figured why put super effort into it if a similar percentage of viewers was going to be upset regardless of how they did the episode.

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