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Are we incapable of having a villain who is just EVIL?!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by dru-zod2501
    I think it's personal preference thing. Some people just like their villains complicated like that, not the moustache-twirling NYAH! Kind.
    But we're not talking about an mustache twirler, we're talking about any villain who's not portrayed as a hero in certain circumstances. Which so far, Lex, Doomsday, Zod and Metallo now have been. They have all saved people's lives. How are we supposed to get on board with the fight against them in we sort of agree with them most of the time?

    Originally posted by DJ Doena
    And that would be my problem with an Evil Villain. The more chlichéd an enemy is, the more stereotyped you draw him, the easier is it for the good guys to defeat him and maybe even kill him.
    .
    See this is exactly my problem. People seem to think that in order to not make the villain cliched, they need to make him sympathetic... well that's just a cop out for writers who can't be inventive with their villains, and now, the sympathetic villain IS the cliched.

    Originally posted by DC Fanboy
    Toyman may be the only evil evil villain of the series. Bizarro was on the right track, but he just had to turn sympathetic later.
    Love Toyman. Also the only fanfiction i'm reading at the moment has toyman as the villain. VILLAIN!

    Originally posted by Bizarro345
    No one who's a villain usually considers themself evil. And if they do, they're a liar. They usually have their own justification for their actions. And even if they seem just straight up evil, there is usually a flicker of good beneath all anger and hatred they have. Corben hasn't even been portrayed as wanting to be remotely evil at all. He was desperate, angry, and forced to be something he didn't want to be. That's why his redemption in Upgrade was very well done.
    But Metallo, as i've seen him in other interpretations, IS a villain. A very angry at Superman, psycho villain.

    Originally posted by Supsfan
    If you make you bad guy overly sympathetic how are you supposed to root for the good guy?
    Exactly. And it's causing us to start hating our main characters. When half the main cast are saying about Doomsday 'yes there is good in him, but he's too dangerous to be allowed to live on earth' and the other half are saying 'no I have to save him at all costs.'

    This is a very supermanly arguement, don't get me wrong. But it never should have been projected onto a character like Doomsday, who truly is too dangerous to be allowed to live. What would the justice league have done when they first met Doomsday in the comics, if they'd found out that he was actually a man under all that monster? Would they have stopped trying to kill him? NO! They were fighting for their lives!

    Originally posted by Mrs_TomWelling
    I prefer it that way. One-dimensional characters are boring.
    Why do villains have to be one dimensional if they aren't 'good'?

    Originally posted by JWangSDC
    Uhm, have you guys ever thought it's because villains are people too? Everyone is the same deep down, but different levels of anger, delusion, guilt, and emotional detachment cause their moral compasses to shift in the wrong direction. Villains always think what they are doing is right.
    In the real world, we have serial killers who do it just for the feeling of power, rapists who simply hate women, people who abuse and kill children, and people who like to torture their victims to see pain.

    I wonder if they all think what they are doing is right?

    Originally posted by Sarevokcz
    So Lex or Zod arent villains because they think they are doing the right thing? Are they not complex? Because I gotta admit, complex villain in my book is exactly what these two are, with background, feelings and their justification of their actions, not 2-dimensional Brainiac-like villains.
    I find it hard to view them as villains, because they have at times been portrayed as heros. Lex has done some very heroic things throughout the series. And Zod this year has been portrayed as a great war hero, and got shot trying to save one of his people from a maniac.

    Originally posted by Aficionado
    All I have to say is Clark deserves a "worthy" villain in the mold of morally slippery Lionel in his earlier incarnations and Lex in the later stages of evilness. Now all we get are these caricatural anti-heroes who aren't really worth the page they're being written on.
    Originally posted by AlexfromLubbock
    That's the real tragedy here Metallo is a great Superman villain and in Smallville the writers didn't use that to his advantage in the original story
    They just wasted a great opportunity.
    Completely agree. Loved Metallo, probably my second favourite Superman villain because he is such a threat to Clark. I remember posting about this the first time around, when Clark defeated him so easily I felt cheated. In STAS, Metallo beats him to deaths door. In Smallville, a necklace can bring Clark to his knees, but a man who is literally running on kryptonite can't do any damage?

    When they said he was coming back i sutupidly got excited again, thinking maybe this time he'd
    be done a bit better. But no, it was much much worse.

    Originally posted by jon-el87
    Lionel going from bad to good, I don't really have much of a problem with. After all, Superman's someone, who believes in the good in people... And what's really the best way, for him to develop this belief? His parents telling him, that people are, deep down, good (while all the evidence, he faces in the world, suggests otherwise)? Or Superman believes, that people can better themselves, because in his youth, he saw an evil man (who's had people killed, commited crimes against humanity (cloning) and so forth), try and better himself?
    Which is all well a good in a way, but this is a story we are telling. And not just any story, but a Superhero story.

    Superheros have villains, that they fight. They also have an arch nemesis, whom they usually hate. They have a moral code and they have their own view on the world and on people, but that doesn't mean that they are always right, or that other people don't have different views.

    If a show about Superman simply had Clark meeting bad people and then helping them turn good, it wouldn't be entertaining, it'd be almost spiritual.

    Originally posted by xrayvision
    Out of all the villians we've seen, Brainiac is probably the one who is genuinely evil and was never shown doing anything good. Anything that may have seemed good, like saving Chloe, was done to get Clark to trust him. All his intentions have always been evil. I'd like to see my "Brainiac as Alia stealing the Book of Rao & releasing General Zod to possess Major Zod's body after killing him" theory come true, because it would mean the return of the baddest & most pain in the ass villian Clark ever had to deal with.


    --------------

    The point is, that it's very hard to get excited about the finale, when I can't really see a big fight. I can see a big 'conversation'.

    I would just love it if we could see something else for a change. I'd love too have a villain that Clark actually HATED because of events throughout the season. Yes, Superman is allowed to be angry at people, he's allowed to hate people. He just doesn't kill them. He sticks to his principles despite his emotions. He's not as violent about his hate as Batman, but he's still capable of bearing it.

    At this point we are running out of villains. And every time a Superman villain has been on the show, i've been highly dissapointed by the amount 'conversations' compared to 'fights'.

    A villain can have his reasons. He can have had a terrible past, we can all almost understand why he is the way he is. Or he can be someone we simply can't understand. Someone who has lived their life with no conscience, and simply does not value human life. Either way, the only thing that's important in the present is that what they are doing is TRULY VILLANOUS.

    Which I have to say, no one is. Not a single person this year has yet done anything truly villainous. It's all 'to save the world'.
    Last edited by Hopefulsuicide; 04-21-2010, 01:20 AM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
      The point is, that it's very hard to get excited about the finale, when I can't really see a big fight. I can see a big 'conversation'.

      I would just love it if we could see something else for a change. I'd love too have a villain that Clark actually HATED because of events throughout the season. Yes, Superman is allowed to be angry at people, he's allowed to hate people. He just doesn't kill them. He sticks to his principles despite his emotions. He's not as violent about his hate as Batman, but he's still capable of bearing it.

      At this point we are running out of villains. And every time a Superman villain has been on the show, i've been highly dissapointed by the amount 'conversations' compared to 'fights'.

      A villain can have his reasons. He can have had a terrible past, we can all almost understand why he is the way he is. Or he can be someone we simply can't understand. Someone who has lived their life with no conscience, and simply does not value human life. Either way, the only thing that's important in the present is that what they are doing is TRULY VILLANOUS.

      Which I have to say, no one is. Not a single person this year has yet done anything truly villainous. It's all 'to save the world'.
      I agree wholeheartedly. This is why I was so pissed when they had that BS moment in Arctic where Brainiac got severely weakened by Chloe's meteor power. It was so full of crap how an AI lifeform who's a machine would be affected by the power to heal living beings. It ripped us off so badly of the big Clark-Brainiac showdown we wanted to see. After everything Brainiac did to Clark & those he cared for that season, Clark did have hatred for him and it would have been a great fight if allowed to happen without any BS interference from other characters.

      The only time we ever saw Clark really really hate someone & want to kill them was when he fought Titan. And that was for all the wrong reasons---because of Lexana-fallout. And Titan was even made to be sympathetic to a degree since they described him as a fighter just looking for a fight rather than some villian who just couldn't care less about life. It could have happened with Doomsday, but they screwed that up on a level higher than they had before (which is why I hate that episode more than I hate Power, and that's saying something).

      The only villian who was ever shown not having a single moral was Brainiac and as much as Clark hated him, they never had a decent fight between the 2. As a matter of fact, after last season finale's fiasco, I'm not holding out any hopes for a decent fight. They had a chance to make what would have been the best fight & they screwed it up. They screwed up with Doomsday. Only the biggest moron producers could screw up an episode about Doomsday. And I don't even care about the reasons. If they were that stupid to blow away the budget before that episode, then they should never have brought Doomsday on the show. After missing the opportunity on that, I don't really care to see any other fights. They also could have done a Clark vs. Kal-El fight in season 7 like I suggested so many damn times rather than giving us the garbage stemming from the crappy plot they used. But that didn't happen either.

      The bottom line is don't expect any decent fights on this show with the crappy budget and the horrible writing & development that leads to talk over action (like last year, when the crappy writing & development led to Chloe running away with Davis and the Justice League stabbing Clark in the back while Jimmy was doing drugs & everyone was kissing Chloe's butt). Even though I want to see Intergang, I have to remember what show this is & how badly they would screw it up (just like they did with Amanda Waller & Checkmate).
      Last edited by xrayvision; 04-21-2010, 01:56 AM.

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      • #63
        Though they seem to have no problem with him getting angry at Tess...

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
          Though they seem to have no problem with him getting angry at Tess...
          I'd be pissed as Tess too if I were him.

          But I think one of the reasons he's not being taken seriously by her & others is because he doesn't do anything about it. And the lack of showing Clark involved in journalism is part of the reason. If he showed Tess that he's not going to let her get away with anything & exposed her activities on the front page of the Planet, that would go a long way in Clark getting respect and in Clark maturing into the character we have in the comics (a superhero AND journalist). In this show, he's only at the Planet as a cover for his hero persona, and that's not the Superman I know who not only loves saving people with his powers, but loves journalism & loves saving people by informing them of things he uncovers that nobody else does.

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          • #65
            I meant to touch on a couple more characters:

            As much as I disliked the unexplained inconsistency of Bizarro suddenly having a genuine sympathetic side just as he was about to be blown to bits, I also found it to be the only likeable moment of his character. I grew up in the silver age, so I don't know who that sneering, mean-spirited, phantom-possessed punk at the end of season six was supposed to be; a pathetic, misunderstood monster whose power to love and feel can literally put Superman to shame is what Bizarro is all about for me.

            Brainiac is one character on the show who stood out as a truly villainous being, beginning to end. I actually would have liked to see some sort of explanation for this -- not necessarily another sympathetic excuse story, mind you, but an origin or other scene offering a basic glimpse of how or why a "thing" could behave in such an "evil" way. What was its programming -- collect knowledge at all costs?

            Overall, I'd say I consider Lex, Tess and Zod to be the best-developed actual villain characters. So I guess that puts me on the side of favoring the sympathetic approach; in fact, I think it has helped to demonstrate that in each of those cases, the characters are villains who are responsible for creating their circumstances through the choices they made.
            Last edited by Last Son of Vern; 04-22-2010, 02:55 AM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by xrayvision
              I'd be pissed as Tess too if I were him.

              But I think one of the reasons he's not being taken seriously by her & others is because he doesn't do anything about it. And the lack of showing Clark involved in journalism is part of the reason. If he showed Tess that he's not going to let her get away with anything & exposed her activities on the front page of the Planet, that would go a long way in Clark getting respect and in Clark maturing into the character we have in the comics (a superhero AND journalist). In this show, he's only at the Planet as a cover for his hero persona, and that's not the Superman I know who not only loves saving people with his powers, but loves journalism & loves saving people by informing them of things he uncovers that nobody else does.
              Oh I agree. I just think it's strange that Tess at this stage, is the biggest villain on the show.

              Also totally agree with you on the journalism front. I always saw it as something he loved, and it's almost like his two jobs work together. Clark and Lois expose the bad guys with their investigations, then Superman catches them. Or Superman catches someone, and Lois and Clark make sure they go down.

              Journalism is his way of being a part of the system. As Superman he is very much an outsider, so in order to really have an impact he has to go through the proper channels... something which he can only really do as Clark.

              Originally posted by Last Son of Vern
              I meant to touch on a couple more characters:

              As much as I disliked the unexplained inconsistency of Bizarro suddenly having a genuine sympathetic side just as he was about to be blown to bits, I also found it to be the only likeable moment of his character. I grew up in the silver age, so I don't know who that sneering, mean-spirited, phantom-possessed punk at the end of season six was supposed to be; a pathetic, misunderstood monster whose power to love and feel can literally put Superman to shame is what Bizarro is all about for me.

              .
              Well it's certainly not for me, and within the context of Smallville, the whole thing was probably the WORST case of villain sympathy ive ever seen.

              Bizzaro was evil. Then all of a sudden he was in love with Lana, and she found him a better boyfriend than Clark... I don't know which of them that is more offensive towards, Lana or Clark. Either her judgement is so terrible that an evil being from another world is her type, or Clark is such a bad boyfriend that anything would have seemed better.

              But that was season 7. And I try to forget about season 7, along with ageless, power and requiem.
              Last edited by Hopefulsuicide; 04-22-2010, 01:31 AM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Last Son of Vern
                Brainiac is one character on the show who stood out as a truly villainous being, beginning to end. I actually would have liked to see some sort of explanation for this -- not necessarily another sympathetic excuse story, mind you, but an origin or other scene offering a basic glimpse of how or why a "thing" could behave in such an "evil" way. What was its programming -- collect knowledge at all costs?
                Well, the main reason is that in Smallville, he is an AI being, so he is entirely based on logic & completely devoid of morals. On top of this, Zod or someone working for Zod definitely reprogrammed him at some point since Jor-El & Dax-Ur created him & they would not have created such an evil entity. The Jor-El AI is also logic-based, but we know how different he/it is compared to Brainiac. Whoever reprogrammed him did so to serve 2 things:

                1. The release of General Zod's phantom from the Phantom Zone at any cost, no matter how much blood has to be spilled

                2. To obtain as much knowledge as possible---so much that it's a neverending mission for him to learn about every species ever created and know their strengths & weaknesses so he can get whatever he needs from them

                Overall, I'd say I consider Lex, Tess and Zod to be the best-developed actual villain characters. So I guess that puts me on the side of favoring the sympathetic approach; in fact, I think it has helped to demonstrate that in each of those cases, the characters are villains who are responsible for creating their circumstances through the choices they made.
                They keep screwing up Tess' character. Any time they do something that makes her more interesting, they blow it. They blew it last year by throwing her into the Clark-Davis situation after she found the BS journal of Lionel's in Eternal. That journal thing really lightswitched her into knowing Clark's secret when I would rather have seen her find out over time. This season they started making her more interesting again with hiding her agenda regarding the Kandorians, but they blew that by throwing her into Checkmate (I just don't like SV's version of Checkmate), having her get involved with Zod, and making her role impossible to follow. Is she still the boss at the Daily Planet? Is she still in charge of Luthorcorp (under Oliver, who now owns it)? What I'd like to see is Tess with Clark more, at the Daily Planet. I would like to see some friction between them, especially with her giving him assignments that he wouldn't be happy to get & assignments that would benefit Tess. Then they could make Lois get curious about Tess' journalistic missions for Clark. I would also like to see Tess manipulate her knowledge of Clark's secret by alerting him to issues affecting her that she thinks he would resolve as the Blur. That would draw some real distinction between her & Lex because she would try to use him while Lex would hate Clark & just want him dead.

                Zod has been OK this season, but as far as development, I don't think they did too much since he's only been here for less than a season so far & there were many episodes he wasn't in. I think he's been OK, but just like I said after first hearing about Zod being a season 9 character, there's only so much they can do with him. So I hope he's gone after this season.

                Lex is the best developed villian, although he is a sympathetic one. But I really hated what they did with him from Reckoning throughout the rest of the series. I hated his involvement with Lana the most & that singlehandedly did the most damage to his character. I also hated his involvement in the Veritas storyline, even though he was much better portrayed as a villian at that time once he was free of the Lana burden. I didn't like the plot of Quest either, but have to say that he looked like a damn good villian in that one. One thing I really wanted to see more of was Lex & Grant Gabriel (the Julian clone) interact more. It would have been much better had that occupied the rest of season 7 and had they delayed Grant's death by a few episodes. He was awesome in Gemini--that episode accurately portrayed the sociopath that is Lex.

                One last thing I wanted to mention is another truly evil villian seen in the show, and that was the evil Lex seen in Onyx and again in Lex's mind in Fracture. That evil Lex was just pure evil. He wanted to take over the world & was forcing Clark to help him or suffer the consequences. Without a second thought, he dropped that lab on Clark & Chloe to kill them both since he didn't know about Clark's secret until Clark lifted the lab. That Lex was purely a product of Lionel's nurture & without any problems broke through Lionel's facade of being a changed man. He was not only evil, but brought out the worst in everyone. Clark was ready to choke him to death and even the good Lex was ready to sacrifice himself just to kill him. He was not ever burdened by Lana & gave her a quick choice to either "be by his side or be thrown out with the rest of the garbage". He had no pretenses with Jonathan either like the regular Lex did & shot him when he wanted to make a point. In Fracture, he cared less that the regular Lex (who was much more like him at the time) was shot in the head & wanted Clark gone even though Clark was trying to help Lex & that the evil Lex would also die if Lex died from his gunshot wound.

                ----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

                Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
                Journalism is his way of being a part of the system. As Superman he is very much an outsider, so in order to really have an impact he has to go through the proper channels... something which he can only really do as Clark.
                Exactly. Journalism was his link to humanity before he ever even knew Lois. After he met her & ultimately got married to her, it still remains as a link to humanity by giving him a profession that humans could relate to and one that makes him like one of us. It has served a significant purpose in his life & has gotten out facts to the public that his Superman persona can't (or wasn't meant to) get out.

                It's very hard for me to watch a show about Clark becoming Superman and leaving out such a huge part of his life.
                Last edited by xrayvision; 04-22-2010, 01:49 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide

                  A villain can have his reasons. He can have had a terrible past, we can all almost understand why he is the way he is. Or he can be someone we simply can't understand. Someone who has lived their life with no conscience, and simply does not value human life. Either way, the only thing that's important in the present is that what they are doing is TRULY VILLANOUS.

                  Which I have to say, no one is. Not a single person this year has yet done anything truly villainous. It's all 'to save the world'.
                  ... that doesn't actually work.

                  Someone could believe that exterminating all minorities would 'save the world' if they did it it would still be horribly villainous!

                  Motivation counts for something yes but it will never be the dividing line between heroes and villains.

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                  • #69
                    I'm probably gonna get booed for this but I LOVE the villains they have had in Smallville even Zod has grown on me although I still don't like him as much not because he isn't "so horrible" or whatnot I just can't stand his storyline & the whole Kandorians thing is just uhh annoying but I have loved almost all the villains including Lex, Tess, Doomsday, Corben, etc. all the ones we have had have had their own great characteristic so I am going to have to disagree I think the villains have been amazing JMO

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                    • #70
                      Wow, I never thought this would be a complaint, lol. Its usually cardboard evil one dimensional villains, now we're complaining that there are no characters are just plain evil?

                      Originally posted by ragamuffin
                      I've noticed this in most every show I watch. Even in Supernatural, they are doing it with Lucifer of all people. Every bad guy now is a victim of circumstances and not just an evil person.
                      Actually that would make sense. But I don't want to go off topic here.

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                      • #71
                        Also Zod isn't doing everything to save the world... his doing it "for the good of his people" which FYI was also Hitler's claimed motivation... you know just a thought.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by borednow
                          ... that doesn't actually work.

                          Someone could believe that exterminating all minorities would 'save the world' if they did it it would still be horribly villainous!

                          Motivation counts for something yes but it will never be the dividing line between heroes and villains.
                          Yes... but no one has done that...

                          Originally posted by bychance
                          Wow, I never thought this would be a complaint, lol. Its usually cardboard evil one dimensional villains, now we're complaining that there are no characters are just plain evil?
                          .
                          No one is asking for one dimensional. As I keep saying you don't have to be a grey area villain, or a villain with a heart who might find redemption one day, in order to be two dimensional. Giving the villain a soul is not the only way to keep audiences interested, and is quickly becoming a way to keep me bored.

                          Originally posted by borednow
                          Also Zod isn't doing everything to save the world... his doing it "for the good of his people" which FYI was also Hitler's claimed motivation... you know just a thought.
                          Well if all Hitler had done was kill a couple of his people, try to build a tower that got blown to bits, and trick a journalist into getting information for him, I don't think we'd consider him a villain to go down in history would we?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
                            Yes... but no one has done that...
                            Which wasn't your argument...
                            But okay they have to do something bad enough huh? How many people do they have to kill before they are a villain? What's the number here?



                            Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
                            Well if all Hitler had done was kill a couple of his people, try to build a tower that got blown to bits, and trick a journalist into getting information for him, I don't think we'd consider him a villain to go down in history would we?
                            No but if that was all he managed he would still be a villain, just not a history earning one...

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
                              Well if all Hitler had done was kill a couple of his people, try to build a tower that got blown to bits, and trick a journalist into getting information for him, I don't think we'd consider him a villain to go down in history would we?
                              I like this argument. Like it like it.

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                              • #75
                                You might need to classify the try to build a tower line... as the trying to build a tower that would give him and his people superpowers that would enable to them to take over the world.

                                Hitler wouldn't have gone down as a villain either if someone had stopped him before he institutionalized the murder of millions of people... that was still you know the plan though... so if a villain is always stopped before they can commit genocide I guess they aren't really that bad huh? Good to know.

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