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Are we incapable of having a villain who is just EVIL?!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Supsfan
    I have to agree, the show's overuse of the tragic villian is getting old. I am a firm believer that the badder the villian is the "gooder" the hero looks.
    And that would be my problem with an Evil Villain. The more chlichéd an enemy is, the more stereotyped you draw him, the easier is it for the good guys to defeat him and maybe even kill him.

    If you have an evil Evil then nobody aks if he really deserved what came to him, it is simply accepted. The good guys don't have to second-guess himself, they just did the only thing possible.

    That is so '80s - and so boring.

    I like it when the characters and the viewers second-guess their actions, aks themselves if they could have done things differently and I like it when users like on this board argue with one another if action A by person B was really justified.

    For example: While I liked Superman Returns in general I though that Lex was way too unrealistic with his "I'll kill billions and I don't care approach.". Why? Because, ultimately it makes no sense. Even if he had killed Supi, a trained SEAL squad could have easily landed on the island and taken him out. Who should have protected him? Dr. Kutner? If you want to takeover the world, you have to do it with subtlety and with style and not like a bad caricature from a '60s Bond movie.

    I always thought that Michael Rosenbaum was better than Gene Hackman and Kevin Spacey. But the reason for that was mainly because he wasn't an evil Evil Villain.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DJ Doena
      I always thought that Michael Rosenbaum was better than Gene Hackman and Kevin Spacey. But the reason for that was mainly because he wasn't an evil Evil Villain.
      I think the animated take of Lex Luthor is the best. He is 100% evil but he knows how to hide that fact from the public(much like Lionel S1-3). If you make you bad guy overly sympathetic how are you supposed to root for the good guy?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DJ Doena
        And that would be my problem with an Evil Villain. The more chlichéd an enemy is, the more stereotyped you draw him, the easier is it for the good guys to defeat him and maybe even kill him.

        If you have an evil Evil then nobody aks if he really deserved what came to him, it is simply accepted. The good guys don't have to second-guess himself, they just did the only thing possible.

        That is so '80s - and so boring.

        I like it when the characters and the viewers second-guess their actions, aks themselves if they could have done things differently and I like it when users like on this board argue with one another if action A by person B was really justified.

        For example: While I liked Superman Returns in general I though that Lex was way too unrealistic with his "I'll kill billions and I don't care approach.". Why? Because, ultimately it makes no sense. Even if he had killed Supi, a trained SEAL squad could have easily landed on the island and taken him out. Who should have protected him? Dr. Kutner? If you want to takeover the world, you have to do it with subtlety and with style and not like a bad caricature from a '60s Bond movie.

        I always thought that Michael Rosenbaum was better than Gene Hackman and Kevin Spacey. But the reason for that was mainly because he wasn't an evil Evil Villain.
        It's DC comics, Superman characters if Superman second guesses himself and doubts if the villain is really a villain then it's not Superman or Dc it's something less than those things and it is.

        In this modern day of cynicism it seems no one can remember that sometimes someone is just bad. No one consider themselves bad they are they rational all their violent behavior and it is boring to have every villain not act like a real villain because that is the norm now it may have been innovative at some point but now isn't.

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        • #19
          Toyman may be the only evil evil villain of the series. Bizarro was on the right track, but he just had to turn sympathetic later.

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          • #20
            I don't mind ambiguous villains if they are written well. In the case of Corben, I appreciated the way they told his story in this episode, because last year whenever they had used a guest character it was to show the futility of second chances and how some people just turn bad.

            One of this season's most consistent themes centered upon second chances. Oliver, Mia, Zan and Jayna, and Alec, for example, all provide templates for individuals who made mistakes but came back from them. More than anything else, I can see the finale building on this theme of second chances by showing Clark, Oliver, and Chloe working together towards a common goal as opposed to the lack of cooperation they had last year. An even more plausible reflection of this theme would be seeing Clark's efforts with the Kandorians paying off as those who were given second chances ultimately choose Clark over Zod, which could be the key to sealing Zod's fate. Also, just maybe, Zod will do something redemptive in the end as well.

            Therefore, to have a guest character like Corben illustrate the merits of second chances is meaningful to me given the parallels the show has been drawing between Corben and Zod since the start of the season.

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            • #21
              No one who's a villain usually considers themself evil. And if they do, they're a liar. They usually have their own justification for their actions. And even if they seem just straight up evil, there is usually a flicker of good beneath all anger and hatred they have. Corben hasn't even been portrayed as wanting to be remotely evil at all. He was desperate, angry, and forced to be something he didn't want to be. That's why his redemption in Upgrade was very well done.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Supsfan
                I think the animated take of Lex Luthor is the best. He is 100% evil but he knows how to hide that fact from the public(much like Lionel S1-3). If you make you bad guy overly sympathetic how are you supposed to root for the good guy?
                Maybe that's why I don't root for the good guy lol

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                • #23
                  I prefer it that way. One-dimensional characters are boring.
                  Last edited by Mrs_TomWelling; 04-17-2010, 10:51 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Well, I honestly don't see Zod as a really good guy. He tries to pretend he is but I see him as an evil guy that wants to take over the world. He is only good to Clark because Clark is one of them.

                    The only reason he seems slightly ambiguous is because Clark interacts with him often. Clark saved his life and Jor-el wants Clark to save Zod's soul from damnation.

                    He is only really seen as a good guy when he is talking to his fellow Kandorians and that makes sense because they are all a big family. I think Zod is an evil guy that pretends and tries to come off as a good guy because he knows human emotions can be manipulated.

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                    • #25
                      “Pogo The Clown” didn't think of himself as a "Bad Guy" either.


                      (Google it)

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                      • #26
                        Sure some villians are liked as a sympathetic of sorts and morally grey while some villians are like darker and need no explaintion
                        Lex Luthor: I like the man who views himself as a hero in his own mind and a xenophobe hating superman because he's alien and
                        Joker: I like him as a xenophobe with no explaintion for what he does
                        Metallo: I'm in favor of the Metallo in Silver age, Post crisis and infinitie crisis and beyond.
                        It just depend on the villian. some villians seem better as being morally grey trying to justify his actions, some just seem better as being plain evil

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hopefulsuicide
                          Is anyone else getting tired of all the villains being 'morally grey' areas?

                          What the hell is wrong with having characters be consistent in their moral compass? And what is wrong with a villain not having a good streak?
                          Uhm, have you guys ever thought it's because villains are people too? Everyone is the same deep down, but different levels of anger, delusion, guilt, and emotional detachment cause their moral compasses to shift in the wrong direction. Villains always think what they are doing is right.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JWangSDC
                            Uhm, have you guys ever thought it's because villains are people too? Everyone is the same deep down, but different levels of anger, delusion, guilt, and emotional detachment cause their moral compasses to shift in the wrong direction. Villains always think what they are doing is right.
                            There is a difference between writing someone complex and not writing a villain at all.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AlexfromLubbock
                              There is a difference between writing someone complex and not writing a villain at all.
                              So Lex or Zod arent villains because they think they are doing the right thing? Are they not complex? Because I gotta admit, complex villain in my book is exactly what these two are, with background, feelings and their justification of their actions, not 2-dimensional Brainiac-like villains.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AlexfromLubbock
                                It's a huge problem not only with this show but even DC comics as well and maybe it's a modern fiction thing as well that is well predictable and unoriginal.

                                I don't know what writers are trying if it's saying fiction is complicated like the real world then it's a bit wrong because people in the real world are sometimes just bad and there is no excuse for their actions.

                                We had Metallo who could have been an interesting Smallville villain and everywhere else is a superpowered bully in all other comics, movies and shows but here they write him completely out of character.
                                The missing understanding is that there is no excuse for anyone's actions. There is always a reason people do good and bad things, always. And we should empathize with everyone's pain, but everyone has to be responsible for their actions. Smallville is a drama so they draw out the moral gray area, but even in real life no one is bad and those terrible people have some excuse in their deranged head for why they did the things they did. That's what a sociopath is, by modern standards it is believed that psychopaths and sociopaths are beyond rehabilitation, but it seems the deeper psychology gets, the more they realize that no one is irredeemable. (Of course it takes massive resources to help these people). That's what the sopranos is about, that's what Dexter is about, thats even what Memento and Unbreakable are partially about.

                                No one is pure good or pure evil, even Darkseid has his good qualities. If you read Kingdom Come they show that Orion, who hated his father, had to act almost identically when put in the same position and in Super TAS, we see how his people view him. It's not some gimmick that's been done before, it's simply the truth of the matter. Mainstream television is now starting to incorporate it because it's at a place where the common level of enlightenment of the audience should be receptive (they hope) to this type of deeper understanding of psychology. But the greatest works posed this level of understanding a long time ago, like Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock. Another great two movies in recent years are No Country for Old Men and There Will Be Blood.

                                ----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

                                Originally posted by AlexfromLubbock
                                There is a difference between writing someone complex and not writing a villain at all.
                                There is a difference between not writing someone complex, and writing a simple villain who everyone can feel justified in persecuting. The reality is, no one should be persecuted but everyone should be held resposible for their actions. Villains are just derranged and disturbed individuals who's cry for help is viewed as a deliberate offense by the ignorant. These cries for help get worse and worse until they think it's ok to kill people.

                                ----- Added 9 Minutes later -----

                                I want to clarify that I'm not backing Smallville's writing though. I enjoy the show a lot, but it is not a quality piece. It is designed to be an emotionally manipulative drama along the lines of Twilight and Gossip Girl. I love that stuff and eat it up and that's why I watch the show.

                                They are trying to bring this more complex idea to that lower level of show. Shows like The Shield, The Wire, and The Sopranos incorporate this idea without it feeling forced, but that's impossible when you dumb your show down to be a teenage angsty drama.

                                So I agree it's annoying the way they do it, but I feel its neccessary to point out that it is just ignorant when they don't. That is, it is very obvious they are ommitting certain characters motivations and characterization, to have someone who is "just EVIL" means to just have a plot device that the good guys team up against.
                                Last edited by JWangSDC; 04-17-2010, 12:32 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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