#2.13 "Epitaph Two: The Return" Countdown/LIVE Thread

[krpto]

I did notice in the later scenes of the episode, they had Adele looking a little wrinkled and Echo with a few strands of grey hair, but that's about it. I don't think Echo had any earlie in the episode, and Ballard certainly didn't. Continuity problem I guess.

I wasn't quite expecting that either. And Alpha seemed a little too willing to play ball. I would have expected him to want to remain like he is just like Echo. I would have expected Echo to return to Caroline reluctantly, but I guess it was fitting for her to return to her bed at the Dollhouse at the end. But then she will really be always alone, even with Ballard in her head lol.

I kept thinking alpha would either wipe himself of all personalities except ballard and leave us with echo as echo and alpha as ballard or that he would show up at the last sec and choose to detonate the bomb himself so topher wouldn't have to. not that he would just leave and risk becoming a monster again.

[hansioux]

Oh man, Topher. Poor, poor Topher. I spent two seasons particularly interested in that character. Bloody fox. At least they let joss wrap it up though.

that's your first mistake when watching a Whedon show.... we like a character enough, he will die.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

what favor did Alpha ask for? who let the Paul drive for Echo? "she's a girl Meg!", oh that line got me. it was so much said in the episode, and the actress who played Priya is such a wonderful actress.

[cousteau]

that's your first mistake when watching a Whedon show.... we like a character enough, he will die.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

what favor did Alpha ask for? who let the Paul drive for Echo? "she's a girl Meg!", oh that line got me. it was so much said in the episode, and the actress who played Priya is such a wonderful actress.

I personally think it was adelle, but a couple of friends thinks it was alpha, and the favour was to be let out before topher let the bomb go.

[hansioux]

I personally think it was adelle, but a couple of friends thinks it was alpha, and the favour was to be let out before topher let the bomb go.

i see. so who left the hard drive is still a mystery..... i like the idea of it being Alpha.

[ReevesSuperman]

It was Alpha who left the Ballard program. I thought it needed another hour to flesh things out. A better finale then Angel where you are going to waste a year of comic book reading to have it all reset to normal for no good reason. I will miss this show.

[Vergon6]

It was Alpha who left the Ballard program. I thought it needed another hour to flesh things out. A better finale then Angel where you are going to waste a year of comic book reading to have it all reset to normal for no good reason. I will miss this show.

We probably would need another hour. But I don't think you have to worry about a comic book that resets everything. I remember reading an interview with Joss that said he had zero interest in carrying Dollhouse over to the comics because he doesn't think it would work as a comic or something like that.

[Dr. Curt Connors]

A fantastic ending to the show! Although it would be better if it wasn't ending so soon. Poor Topher and Paul.

[kernel_thai]

First, let me thank FOX for changing the time so it didnt get recorded on Friday.

I thought it was great. Very twisty. I liked both deaths. I thought they fit well into the story as opposed to meaningless slaughter of a loved one. Alpha was enemy number one of Rossum from the beginning. ED seemed much more comfy as vigilantly butt kicker than she ever did in the doll of the week eps.

My only real complaint was topher's amazing technobable miracle. Im just a tad fuzzy on how wiped people got their original personalities reset. I mean the whole point of the wedges was to store personalities after they r removed. If they were just hanging around waiting to be reset why store them? Topher should have mass imprinted everyone on the planet with the Topher personality. It would have made for a funny planet.

[hansioux]

Topher should have mass imprinted everyone on the planet with the Topher personality. It would have made for a funny planet.

or have everyone be the dancing college girl that was in Victor.

[actaeon]

And so a great series with fantastic potential comes to a premature end.

I was unimpressed with the final episode-- talk about rushed! The Road Warrior bit was awfully unimaginative, and the Butchers were Reavers in all but name. Very un-Joss-like cut and paste job in both cases. Honestly I would have preferred it if these two final episodes had not been a rushed attempt to tack an ending onto the story, and the series had simply cut off in mid-season. The idea of a sudden cure-all, with Topher heroically dying to fix all, was a sad compromise to force a happy Hollywood ending onto a series that was great precisely because it was so distrubing.

Still, it was fun in its way. And much better than 98% percent of the stuff on TV.

[ChrisB85]

I kept thinking alpha would either wipe himself of all personalities except ballard and leave us with echo as echo and alpha as ballard or that he would show up at the last sec and choose to detonate the bomb himself so topher wouldn't have to. not that he would just leave and risk becoming a monster again.

Well, but from what I understand, by leaving the save shielding of the Dollhouse, he was wiped by Topher´s pulse allong with everyone else on earth, so after that, Alpha would be gone and he would become who he was before he got into the Dollhouse.

[hansioux]

Well, but from what I understand, by leaving the save shielding of the Dollhouse, he was wiped by Topher´s pulse allong with everyone else on earth, so after that, Alpha would be gone and he would become who he was before he got into the Dollhouse.

my question is this, like Echo, Alpha is one of the few supers that creates a sense of self even being wiped. Echo for example, not only was able to create her identity, but also retained memories of all her previous imprints. Even being wiped clean multiple times, they come back to her, and she was able to use all those imprints at will.

So, for Alpha, even if he does get hit by the Topher pulse, couldn't he just bring those imprint memories back again?

[Xanderman]

"Did I fall asleep?"

^no, but I wish I had instead of watching this on my dvr. Where's the erase button....and no I don't mean on my dvr remote, I mean in my brain. Anyway, here's a review:

Odd seeing an Epitaph One recap at the start seeing as that episode never actually aired, so in a sense technically never happened. People who didn't buy the dvd or watch it some other way would probably have been going 'wtf' right about then (well people in North America anyway). (Or maybe they did air it, eventually? Hell if I know.)

Lots of ripping from zombie movies and the like here. Land of the Dead and Dawn of the Dead in particular came to mind in places for me. And there were cliches to spare, plenty of them.

Echo and Paul's relationship barely progressing over the course of TEN YEARS TOGETHER is just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And Paul surviving 10 years of combat only to die in this particular skirmish, which just happened to be moments/hours/whatever before "salvation", is the very definition of convenient.

Not receiving better closure on the whole "Boyd" fiasco was disappointing and a hole that really should have been filled.

Did Topher's "reset bomb" really reach the whole world? Really really for reals really? Really? Because that's pretty damned impossible I mean impressive.

Wasn't Topher sort of important? Important enough to have someone else detonate the bomb in his place? Maybe like a copy of himself instead of the actual? Topher also seemed a little bit (or a lot bit) mentally imbalanced/fragile. You'd think those in charge would make a better command decision then send wacko brink alone.

All of this done obviously in the name of manufacturing one thing: the D word -- Drama.

So we have the L word, the S word and the D word all in one neat little package:

L for Lame,
S for Stupid, and
D for Drama

What does that spell? That's right -- LSD. Which is: a) what Maurissa Tancharoen, Jed Whedon and Andrew Chambliss must have been on when they wrote this; b) what Joss must have been on when he approved it; and c) what FOX must have been on when they actually allowed it to air, instead of pulling a much-deserved "TSCC" screw-job on it.

So anyway, yes this was a lame episode. Yes this was a lame finale. But was it any lamer or more absurd than Epitaph One? No. Well, okay it was. Either way, clearly for me, the direction they decided to take the series--leading to the future world of the Epitaphs--was the wrong one and then some. Don't get me wrong, I didn't hate Dollhouse. Only myself for ever hoping that it might actually become something more or better than it was. Overall, I'd rate the series a solid 'C' (as in, I'll C you in Hell for this, Joss Whedon. Just kidding, just kidding.)

[kernel_thai]

"Did I fall asleep?"

^no, but I wish I had instead of watching this on my dvr. Where's the erase button....and no I don't mean on my dvr remote, I mean in my brain. Anyway, here's a review:

Odd seeing an Epitaph One recap at the start seeing as that episode never actually aired, so in a sense technically never happened. People who didn't buy the dvd or watch it some other way would probably have been going 'wtf' right about then (well people in North America anyway). (Or maybe they did air it, eventually? Hell if I know.)

Lots of ripping from zombie movies and the like here. Land of the Dead and Dawn of the Dead in particular came to mind in places for me. And there were cliches to spare, plenty of them.

Echo and Paul's relationship barely progressing over the course of TEN YEARS TOGETHER is just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And Paul surviving 10 years of combat only to die in this particular skirmish, which just happened to be moments/hours/whatever before "salvation", is the very definition of convenient.

Not receiving better closure on the whole "Boyd" fiasco was disappointing and a hole that really should have been filled.

Did Topher's "reset bomb" really reach the whole world? Really really for reals really? Really? Because that's pretty damned impossible I mean impressive.

Wasn't Topher sort of important? Important enough to have someone else detonate the bomb in his place? Maybe like a copy of himself instead of the actual? Topher also seemed a little bit (or a lot bit) mentally imbalanced/fragile. You'd think those in charge would make a better command decision then send wacko brink alone.

All of this done obviously in the name of manufacturing one thing: the D word -- Drama.

So we have the L word, the S word and the D word all in one neat little package:

L for Lame,
S for Stupid, and
D for Drama

What does that spell? That's right -- LSD. Which is: a) what Maurissa Tancharoen, Jed Whedon and Andrew Chambliss must have been on when they wrote this; b) what Joss must have been on when he approved it; and c) what FOX must have been on when they actually allowed it to air, instead of pulling a much-deserved "TSCC" screw-job on it.

So anyway, yes this was a lame episode. Yes this was a lame finale. But was it any lamer or more absurd than Epitaph One? No. Well, okay it was. Either way, clearly for me, the direction they decided to take the series--leading to the future world of the Epitaphs--was the wrong one and then some. Don't get me wrong, I didn't hate Dollhouse. Only myself for ever hoping that it might actually become something more or better than it was. Overall, I'd rate the series a solid 'C' (as in, I'll C you in Hell for this, Joss Whedon. Just kidding, just kidding.)

um, harsh?

[krpto]

Well, but from what I understand, by leaving the save shielding of the Dollhouse, he was wiped by Topher´s pulse allong with everyone else on earth, so after that, Alpha would be gone and he would become who he was before he got into the Dollhouse.

and who he was before he became a doll/active was a murder why whould alpha risk becoming that again after he worked so hard to not be that.