The Colt & this Crowley demon

[xrayvision]

Shouldn't the Crauley demon have given the Colt back to the Winchesters if Lilith was the final seal? Or did he/she not want to have that happen before the other seals were broken first? Because that would have probably ended the chances of the Apocalypse happening (if Lilith was killed before seal #66).

Or maybe they wanted Sam to kill Lilith in some other manner since the Colt was too powerful of a weapon & could kill many demons. It makes me wonder what Ruby's original intentions were, since she altered the Colt. Did she screw the Colt up or was she genuinely wanting to help them before Lilith sent her away?

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Shouldn't the Crauley demon have given the Colt back to the Winchesters if Lilith was the final seal? Or did he/she not want to have that happen before the other seals were broken first? Because that would have probably ended the chances of the Apocalypse happening (if Lilith was killed before seal #66).

Or maybe they wanted Sam to kill Lilith in some other manner since the Colt was too powerful of a weapon & could kill many demons. It makes me wonder what Ruby's original intentions were, since she altered the Colt. Did she screw the Colt up or was she genuinely wanting to help them before Lilith sent her away?

Why would Crowley give Sam and Dean the Colt back? Sam had to be the one to kill Lilith, using his own power. That's the whole reason why Azazel bled into Sam's mouth. And I don't think Lilith wanted to stop the Apocalypse; if you're referring to "The Monster At The End Of This Book", I think the reason Lilith tried to seduce Sam, is to only put more fire under Sam's "vendetta" against her, because Lilith possibly knew that Sam wasn't QUITE there to defeat Lilith. So, I mean, toying with the idea of ending the 66 Seals search by sleeping with a demon(bad demon at least, since he did sleep with Ruby, but Sam thought Ruby was still one of the good folks), yah, I think that really got under Sam's skin, not even knowing that, when he does kill Lilith, he will, even for a moment, become a demon himself.

And I am thinking that Crowley has been keeping the Colt because it's a powerful weapon, and could kill angels(if Castiel believes it will kill Lucifer), and that is why it's not destroyed. Perhaps that will be Lucifer's second most powerful weapon(besides himself) that will kill of the angels, just in case Jesse doesn't become evil.

And...Ruby was evil back in season three, and no other demon besides Lilith knew that she was a being a traitor to the Winchesters while being a traitor to the demons. So she helped fix the Colt to become a "good guy" in the battle against Lilith and her army and it was all a coy; she was always evil, but she had to play her part. So, no, she didn't alter the gun, she made it back to working condition. The Colt still works, and will work in "Abandon All Hope".

Plus, fans are saying Becky's revelation was abrupt, and I never viewed it like that. Bella handing the gun to Crowley was written in the book, and something that Chuck nor any angel would tell Sam and Dean(sure, Castiel could've said something, but he's more worried on searching for God first, Colt second), and Zachariah informed Chuck to not talk about his books to the boys, and even after Zach being a douchebag, Chuck still doesn't inform the boys about his books, only his future visions, thinking since it's in the past, then Sam and Dean would probably already know about that.

It did set up for next week's episode perfectly though. An abrupt lead to the Colt(much like the abrupt lead to the Colt in season one), and Dean happy about his life, but that will quickly change for sure next week.

[xrayvision]

Why would Crowley give Sam and Dean the Colt back? Sam had to be the one to kill Lilith, using his own power. That's the whole reason why Azazel bled into Sam's mouth. And I don't think Lilith wanted to stop the Apocalypse; if you're referring to "The Monster At The End Of This Book", I think the reason Lilith tried to seduce Sam, is to only put more fire under Sam's "vendetta" against her, because Lilith possibly knew that Sam wasn't QUITE there to defeat Lilith. So, I mean, toying with the idea of ending the 66 Seals search by sleeping with a demon(bad demon at least, since he did sleep with Ruby, but Sam thought Ruby was still one of the good folks), yah, I think that really got under Sam's skin, not even knowing that, when he does kill Lilith, he will, even for a moment, become a demon himself.

Well, one of my points was that by giving the Winchesters the Colt back, too much control would be lost and they could have easily killed Lilith before the 66th seal and without Sam being the one. But I don't think Sam had to be the one, even though we hear it so many times. Because Sam was cured of his demonic blood thanks to God when they were saved from Lucifer. So whatever powers Sam had that made him the ideal vessel are now gone. It's weird to hear Lucifer still say that Sam is his ideal vessel. But I guess whoever broke the last seal would be that person since Dean (who broke the first seal) is Michael's intended vessel.

And I am thinking that Crowley has been keeping the Colt because it's a powerful weapon, and could kill angels(if Castiel believes it will kill Lucifer), and that is why it's not destroyed. Perhaps that will be Lucifer's second most powerful weapon(besides himself) that will kill of the angels, just in case Jesse doesn't become evil.

The Colt in its original form was a weapon against evil, though John Winchester did say anything. But I don't think a hunter (who the gun was made for) would try to kill angels or could even if he wanted to. So that would exclude most angels, except Lucifer & those who joined his side. I really hope we never see Jesse again since I was very much against any plot device like him. It makes no sense for a kid like him to be that powerful, especially when there could easily be an army of kids like that.

And...Ruby was evil back in season three, and no other demon besides Lilith knew that she was a being a traitor to the Winchesters while being a traitor to the demons. So she helped fix the Colt to become a "good guy" in the battle against Lilith and her army and it was all a coy; she was always evil, but she had to play her part. So, no, she didn't alter the gun, she made it back to working condition. The Colt still works, and will work in "Abandon All Hope".

I'm not sure about that. Ruby wanted to teach Sam how to kill Lilith back in Season 3 before the first seal was ever broken. I don't think she was in on the plan until Lilith took her back to hell.

Also, she did alter the gun. The Colt originally needed 13 special bullets. After those bullets ran out (after Dean killed Azazel), I'm not even sure it fires bullets anymore. I was under the impression that it fires hellfire now or possibly regular bullets. Regardless of whatever it shoots, she definitely did something since they ran out of those special bullets. According to John Winchester, the bullets were made by Samuel Colt in 1835 on a night when Halley's Comet was overhead when the men died at the Alamo. He also made 13 bullets that same night to be used with the gun. John said "They say... they say this gun can kill anything". I'm pretty sure the Crossroads demon said that the gun isn't the same as it used to be. So if it can kill angels, then maybe it can kill them as a result of whatever magic/alteration Ruby did.

But then there's the whole thing that when 2014 Dean used it against Lucifer, it didn't work on him. So I think whatever Ruby did, she made sure it wouldn't work on Lucifer. I the promo to next week's episode I saw the word Netherworld. Maybe the Winchesters will enter a spirit dimension or realm like they did in Death Takes a Holiday so they could meet Samuel Colt and find out how he built the gun so they could make more bullets for it in the same way Sam Colt did and un-hex the gun from whatever Ruby did to it.

Plus, fans are saying Becky's revelation was abrupt, and I never viewed it like that. Bella handing the gun to Crowley was written in the book, and something that Chuck nor any angel would tell Sam and Dean(sure, Castiel could've said something, but he's more worried on searching for God first, Colt second), and Zachariah informed Chuck to not talk about his books to the boys, and even after Zach being a douchebag, Chuck still doesn't inform the boys about his books, only his future visions, thinking since it's in the past, then Sam and Dean would probably already know about that.

But Chuck could have also thought that the boys did read his book and tried to find it without being successful. I think the reason the angels didn't want them to find out was because they wanted the Apocalypse to happen since they were sick of waiting.

It did set up for next week's episode perfectly though. An abrupt lead to the Colt(much like the abrupt lead to the Colt in season one), and Dean happy about his life, but that will quickly change for sure next week.

I'm looking forward to next week's episode.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Well, one of my points was that by giving the Winchesters the Colt back, too much control would be lost and they could have easily killed Lilith before the 66th seal and without Sam being the one. But I don't think Sam had to be the one, even though we hear it so many times. Because Sam was cured of his demonic blood thanks to God when they were saved from Lucifer. So whatever powers Sam had that made him the ideal vessel are now gone. It's weird to hear Lucifer still say that Sam is his ideal vessel. But I guess whoever broke the last seal would be that person since Dean (who broke the first seal) is Michael's intended vessel.

Yes, and I have asked, why would Crowley give the Colt back? He wouldn't, so that's an argument that's neither here nor there. And also, Sam might have said "whoever put me in that plane cured me", but there is no proof to that. What we have seen before Lucifer rose, is that Sam used all of his powers on Lilith, and couldn't do anything to Ruby, and then in "Good God, Ya'll!", when Sam stabbed that teen with the knife, he looked over at the blood like he thirsted for it. Those are two signs that showed me that Sam's abilities ran out after killing Lilith, and Sam still wanted blood after God transported him into that plane. I think Sam can still go all demon-y without being Lucifer's host, but Sam is trying to fight that urge.

The Colt in its original form was a weapon against evil, though John Winchester did say anything. But I don't think a hunter (who the gun was made for) would try to kill angels or could even if he wanted to. So that would exclude most angels, except Lucifer & those who joined his side. I really hope we never see Jesse again since I was very much against any plot device like him. It makes no sense for a kid like him to be that powerful, especially when there could easily be an army of kids like that.

Sure, the Colt wasn't meant to kill an angel, but again, who really cares what it's meant for. It can kill angels if it can kill Lucifer(with him being an angel), so of course they would want to use that weapon against the good guys. Why would they not go for a chance like that? Killing the good guys with a weapon that's meant for the good guys.

And I'm fine with that Jesse kid. What we know is that he's AN Antichrist, meaning there definitely can be more of him, and we might see more of his kind later this season to complete Lucifer's army(as a higher rank to demons, much like archangels are a higher rank than angels).

I'm not sure about that. Ruby wanted to teach Sam how to kill Lilith back in Season 3 before the first seal was ever broken. I don't think she was in on the plan until Lilith took her back to hell.

Eric Kripke himself stated that Ruby was evil from the beginning.

Also, she did alter the gun. The Colt originally needed 13 special bullets. After those bullets ran out (after Dean killed Azazel), I'm not even sure it fires bullets anymore. I was under the impression that it fires hellfire now or possibly regular bullets. Regardless of whatever it shoots, she definitely did something since they ran out of those special bullets. According to John Winchester, the bullets were made by Samuel Colt in 1835 on a night when Halley's Comet was overhead when the men died at the Alamo. He also made 13 bullets that same night to be used with the gun. John said "They say... they say this gun can kill anything". I'm pretty sure the Crossroads demon said that the gun isn't the same as it used to be. So if it can kill angels, then maybe it can kill them as a result of whatever magic/alteration Ruby did.

I watched the series from the beginning, I don't need the Colt's background story, lol.

And Ruby did fix the Colt, wether it uses regular bullets, or Ruby helped him make special bullets, I don't know. But the Colt is still the Colt, and I don't think it's weakened(if you refer to the witch from season three, she was able to stop the bullet because she wasn't caught off guard, not because the bullet was too weak).

And I don't recall the Crossroads Demon saying that. In "Bedtime Stories", or which episode?

But then there's the whole thing that when 2014 Dean used it against Lucifer, it didn't work on him. So I think whatever Ruby did, she made sure it wouldn't work on Lucifer. I the promo to next week's episode I saw the word Netherworld. Maybe the Winchesters will enter a spirit dimension or realm like they did in Death Takes a Holiday so they could meet Samuel Colt and find out how he built the gun so they could make more bullets for it in the same way Sam Colt did and un-hex the gun from whatever Ruby did to it.

I can't say about the "Netherland" quote, but for the episode "The End", did you SEE Dean shoot Lucifer? Because I didn't, and I can't say that Dean was able to shoot Lucifer before dying.

But Chuck could have also thought that the boys did read his book and tried to find it without being successful. I think the reason the angels didn't want them to find out was because they wanted the Apocalypse to happen since they were sick of waiting..

Chuck knows that they didn't read his books, and what we saw of Dean and Sam, they only read a few of the "season one" book titles, and not all of them.

[Carnagefan88]

Well, one of my points was that by giving the Winchesters the Colt back, too much control would be lost and they could have easily killed Lilith before the 66th seal and without Sam being the one. But I don't think Sam had to be the one, even though we hear it so many times. Because Sam was cured of his demonic blood thanks to God when they were saved from Lucifer. So whatever powers Sam had that made him the ideal vessel are now gone. It's weird to hear Lucifer still say that Sam is his ideal vessel. But I guess whoever broke the last seal would be that person since Dean (who broke the first seal) is Michael's intended vessel.



The Colt in its original form was a weapon against evil, though John Winchester did say anything. But I don't think a hunter (who the gun was made for) would try to kill angels or could even if he wanted to. So that would exclude most angels, except Lucifer & those who joined his side. I really hope we never see Jesse again since I was very much against any plot device like him. It makes no sense for a kid like him to be that powerful, especially when there could easily be an army of kids like that.



I'm not sure about that. Ruby wanted to teach Sam how to kill Lilith back in Season 3 before the first seal was ever broken. I don't think she was in on the plan until Lilith took her back to hell.

Also, she did alter the gun. The Colt originally needed 13 special bullets. After those bullets ran out (after Dean killed Azazel), I'm not even sure it fires bullets anymore. I was under the impression that it fires hellfire now or possibly regular bullets. Regardless of whatever it shoots, she definitely did something since they ran out of those special bullets. According to John Winchester, the bullets were made by Samuel Colt in 1835 on a night when Halley's Comet was overhead when the men died at the Alamo. He also made 13 bullets that same night to be used with the gun. John said "They say... they say this gun can kill anything". I'm pretty sure the Crossroads demon said that the gun isn't the same as it used to be. So if it can kill angels, then maybe it can kill them as a result of whatever magic/alteration Ruby did.

But then there's the whole thing that when 2014 Dean used it against Lucifer, it didn't work on him. So I think whatever Ruby did, she made sure it wouldn't work on Lucifer. I the promo to next week's episode I saw the word Netherworld. Maybe the Winchesters will enter a spirit dimension or realm like they did in Death Takes a Holiday so they could meet Samuel Colt and find out how he built the gun so they could make more bullets for it in the same way Sam Colt did and un-hex the gun from whatever Ruby did to it.



But Chuck could have also thought that the boys did read his book and tried to find it without being successful. I think the reason the angels didn't want them to find out was because they wanted the Apocalypse to happen since they were sick of waiting.



I'm looking forward to next week's episode.

that's not why there the vessels there the vessel cause Sam Rebelled against John Like Lucifer Rebelled Against God and Dean was loyal to John like Michael was Loyal to God it has to due with there relationship with john was like the relationship Michael and Lucifer had with God

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----

Yes, and I have asked, why would Crowley give the Colt back? He wouldn't, so that's an argument that's neither here nor there. And also, Sam might have said "whoever put me in that plane cured me", but there is no proof to that. What we have seen before Lucifer rose, is that Sam used all of his powers on Lilith, and couldn't do anything to Ruby, and then in "Good God, Ya'll!", when Sam stabbed that teen with the knife, he looked over at the blood like he thirsted for it. Those are two signs that showed me that Sam's abilities ran out after killing Lilith, and Sam still wanted blood after God transported him into that plane. I think Sam can still go all demon-y without being Lucifer's host, but Sam is trying to fight that urge.



Sure, the Colt wasn't meant to kill an angel, but again, who really cares what it's meant for. It can kill angels if it can kill Lucifer(with him being an angel), so of course they would want to use that weapon against the good guys. Why would they not go for a chance like that? Killing the good guys with a weapon that's meant for the good guys.

And I'm fine with that Jesse kid. What we know is that he's AN Antichrist, meaning there definitely can be more of him, and we might see more of his kind later this season to complete Lucifer's army(as a higher rank to demons, much like archangels are a higher rank than angels).



Eric Kripke himself stated that Ruby was evil from the beginning.



I watched the series from the beginning, I don't need the Colt's background story, lol.

And Ruby did fix the Colt, wether it uses regular bullets, or Ruby helped him make special bullets, I don't know. But the Colt is still the Colt, and I don't think it's weakened(if you refer to the witch from season three, she was able to stop the bullet because she wasn't caught off guard, not because the bullet was too weak).

And I don't recall the Crossroads Demon saying that. In "Bedtime Stories", or which episode?



I can't say about the "Netherland" quote, but for the episode "The End", did you SEE Dean shoot Lucifer? Because I didn't, and I can't say that Dean was able to shoot Lucifer before dying.



Chuck knows that they didn't read his books, and what we saw of Dean and Sam, they only read a few of the "season one" book titles, and not all of them.

i believe the counterpart in the demonic Hierarchy to archangels are archdemons but i think there can be only one anti-christ which i think is more powerful than an archdemon and i only think there can be only 1 antichrist

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

that's not why there the vessels there the vessel cause Sam Rebelled against John Like Lucifer Rebelled Against God and Dean was loyal to John like Michael was Loyal to God it has to due with there relationship with john was like the relationship Michael and Lucifer had with God

I doubt that is the main reason at all. To me, Sam is the true vessel because he was chosen when he was six months old, as Azazel, even though he bled into the mouths of other children, he did say that Sam was his favorite and that had to be for a reason, because Sam was always meant to be the one to kill Lilith and become Lucifer's true vessel, and because of that, it's why Dean is the vessel of Michael. So, it's not really because of how they acted towards their father, John, but it's because of what has happened to them down the road ever since Azazel.

You might forget though, that the demons wanted John to break the first Seal as well, so I don't think Dean was born to become Michael's vessel; I think it happened because he did break the first Seal. Gabriel just made the comparison of Sam to Lucifer and Dean to Michael just because it was an easy comparison, that fans have been saying for a while, but it still doesn't mean, since the comparison was made, that God will use John Winchester as his vessel.

i believe the counterpart in the demonic Hierarchy to archangels are archdemons but i think there can be only one anti-christ which i think is more powerful than an archdemon and i only think there can be only 1 antichrist

I doubt we will see archdemons in SPN lore, and to the fact that Castiel didn't say Jesse is THE Anti-Christ, so there could be many, which could be the counterpart of archangels. And also, we haven't heard anything of Seraphim or Cherubs, so I think within the SPN lore, the only two factions in Heaven are angels and archangels.

[xrayvision]

I think if anyone's an arch demon, it would be Azazel, Lilith, Alistair, and whoever the demon is that Duane Tanner in Croatoan was talking to (the demon in charge of the Croatoan virus).

[xrayvision]

Yes, and I have asked, why would Crowley give the Colt back? He wouldn't, so that's an argument that's neither here nor there. And also, Sam might have said "whoever put me in that plane cured me", but there is no proof to that. What we have seen before Lucifer rose, is that Sam used all of his powers on Lilith, and couldn't do anything to Ruby, and then in "Good God, Ya'll!", when Sam stabbed that teen with the knife, he looked over at the blood like he thirsted for it. Those are two signs that showed me that Sam's abilities ran out after killing Lilith, and Sam still wanted blood after God transported him into that plane. I think Sam can still go all demon-y without being Lucifer's host, but Sam is trying to fight that urge.

I still think he was cured, but I guess we will find out later on in the season. I'm just not sure if Sam was looking at the blood on that knife with desire to drink it, or if he was looking at the implications of killing those guys. Or maybe he was just checking himself out to see if he still had a lust for it since it was his first encounter with blood like that after he was purified. My main reason for thinking Crowley wouldn't give the Colt back was that it could kill demons and it's one less thing he wanted the Winchesters to have since it would really give them an advantage.

Sure, the Colt wasn't meant to kill an angel, but again, who really cares what it's meant for. It can kill angels if it can kill Lucifer(with him being an angel), so of course they would want to use that weapon against the good guys. Why would they not go for a chance like that? Killing the good guys with a weapon that's meant for the good guys.

Well, back when it was introduced they said it could kill anything. But back then, there were no angels on Earth, unless you count the Trickster, who didn't show up until season 2 (after the Colt) and wasn't revealed as Gabriel until Changing Channels. And angels are many many times more powerful than demons are (which is why demons were so scared of them in Lazarus Rising). You may be right, but so far there isn't any proof that says it can kill angels, just speculation.

And I'm fine with that Jesse kid. What we know is that he's AN Antichrist, meaning there definitely can be more of him, and we might see more of his kind later this season to complete Lucifer's army(as a higher rank to demons, much like archangels are a higher rank than angels).

Well, I just don't want him upstaging Sam & Dean. And he shouldn't be as powerful as he is. It doesn't make sense. If he was something of Alistair's level, I would have no problem with it. But a product of a human & a demon, both of which are weaker than an angel? What would happen if an angel had a kid with a human? By their logic, it would be the most powerful being in the universe even though God should technically be the most powerful. As a Christian, I take making that kid that strong as a jab at Jesus, and that may be what bothers me most, even though this show is fictional. The anti-Christ (or in this case an anti-Christ) by its very nature should be evil & stand against every thing Christ stands for. So Jesse shouldn't even be called an anti-Christ but a potential anti-Christ since they're showing that he has a choice of being good or evil. Just slapping him with that label would mean that he was evil.

Eric Kripke himself stated that Ruby was evil from the beginning.

I never trusted her, but I'm wondering what they would have done with her had season 3 not been cut short due to the writers' strike. It's obvious that she was the temptation who lured Sam in to using his powers. But at the same time, she was not in the loop of the big plan, because had she prepped Sam to kill Lilith in Season 3, the chances of the seals being broken would be shot to hell (no pun intended).

I watched the series from the beginning, I don't need the Colt's background story, lol.

And Ruby did fix the Colt, wether it uses regular bullets, or Ruby helped him make special bullets, I don't know. But the Colt is still the Colt, and I don't think it's weakened(if you refer to the witch from season three, she was able to stop the bullet because she wasn't caught off guard, not because the bullet was too weak).

She did something to it. As far as fixing it to make it work--she did that, but for all we know, she could have done something to it where it won't work on Lucifer. If she was evil I would think she did do something to taint it. Or maybe she inscribed anti-angel things on it so it would work on angels. I'm not sure if she'd take the chances of doing that & risk having Lucifer killed though.

And I don't recall the Crossroads Demon saying that. In "Bedtime Stories", or which episode?

She says: "That's not the original Colt. Where did you get that"?

I can't say about the "Netherland" quote, but for the episode "The End", did you SEE Dean shoot Lucifer? Because I didn't, and I can't say that Dean was able to shoot Lucifer before dying.

Fair enough, I thought he did, but it doesn't look like it. But there's still no proof the Colt can kill angels like Lucifer. So until we see it, we can't assume it.

Chuck knows that they didn't read his books, and what we saw of Dean and Sam, they only read a few of the "season one" book titles, and not all of them.

But Chuck wasn't with them 24/7 & for all he knew they could have gotten some books to read while driving cross country.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I think if anyone's an arch demon, it would be Azazel, Lilith, Alistair, and whoever the demon is that Duane Tanner in Croatoan was talking to (the demon in charge of the Croatoan virus).

I am getting more and more convinced that the demon Tanner was speaking to was Pestilence. I have even said numerous times that the way the blood was moving from Tanner's voice was WAY different than how the blood was moving when Meg was speaking to Azazel(and people have argued that they just changed the effect, but I can't see Kripke that sloppy; I think there's a purpose as to why there's two different ways the blood moved).

At first, I thought that it was maybe Lilith, but it makes more sense as it being Pestilence as the Horseman would want to know if the Croatoan virus could affect Sam.

Another reason I keep saying it's Pestilence is because I think he's the creator of the virus, and also, Kripke mentioned that we will see Pestilence during the end of the season, so it makes a lot of sense(since Lucifer goes back to Hell after this season, then maybe Lucifer will try to bring in the virus much earlier than planned, ala 2012).

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----

But Chuck wasn't with them 24/7 & for all he knew they could have gotten some books to read while driving cross country.

We pretty much agreed on everything else, but I'll reply to this.

I think Chuck knows that Dean and Sam would not spend time to read what they went through with their own lives. If you see the books that they checked out reading in "TMATEOTB" are mostly seasons one and two, so maybe they really just skipped through season three's stuff. It's nothing really to complain about, I think it's fine storytelling; now if Chuck brings it up randomly, then yes, you could say something, but it was written in one of the books that a fan brought up, and it's smart writing because SPN's own fans are very much into the minor details that could come out as big plot points.