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  1. #61
    SV's Superman/Clark SnowBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kal-el_Girl View Post
    That's how their relationship is, Ollie tells Clark what he needs to hear and Viceversa!
    I wish Oliver had said it in a different way. It just seemed like he was ragging on Clark's suit and rubbing it in that he was rich with a taylor. Kinda rude in my opinion.

  2. #62
    Whedon Worshipper Hopefulsuicide's Avatar
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    I didn't think it was rude... just very Ollie. Breaking up the uncomfortableness of admitting he was wrong by ragging on Clark's fashion taste

    The scene was just lovely. I can't wait to see what it means for future episodes, having the Green Arrow back in action and back working with Watchtower. Clark is still slightly outside the JLA, and so it doesn't feel silly to have Ollie back in charge, as Clark has never stepped into that shoe.

  3. #63
    SV's Superman/Clark SnowBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopefulsuicide View Post
    I didn't think it was rude... just very Ollie. Breaking up the uncomfortableness of admitting he was wrong by ragging on Clark's fashion taste

    The scene was just lovely. I can't wait to see what it means for future episodes, having the Green Arrow back in action and back working with Watchtower. Clark is still slightly outside the JLA, and so it doesn't feel silly to have Ollie back in charge, as Clark has never stepped into that shoe.
    Ollie likes to add in his own brand of humor that bugs me sometimes but I guess I should give him some slack in this case. Like Clark said one time, "I'm laughing on the inside," when Clark didn't find Ollie's remarks funny.

    I'm wondering how the pecking order is going to be handled in the JLA in the future. I'm thinking that Clark will go solo since he is on his journey to become Superman.

  4. #64
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    When I first saw the gargoyle and with GA on the roof I was like OMG. Yes I thought it was an awesome shot! It felt like it was homage to the batman/superman shot by artist Jim Lee. Just look:



    or



    Notice the gargoyles?

  5. #65
    Complete Maniac BadToad's Avatar
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    Yeah, its totally awesome!

    So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you.

    You have to love SV and their screwed up morality. But then again, since Ollie is cute and all, I guess its OK for him to plot premeditate murder and all. And look, Clark is totally validating him. Thats totally awesome character development for Clark.

    Or, you know, not really.

    IMO

    Clark's not really doing anything in Metropolis Ollie couldn't do either.
    Yeah, Oliver could totally have caught that train falling off the tracks.

    Who needs Clark? I think thats a sentiment pretty much shared by the SV writing staff as well.

  6. #66
    Forum Whiz MozartRequiem's Avatar
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    "So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you."

    Ollie basically just killed Hitler, and you're saying he should have to go to jail for that?

  7. #67
    Forum Whiz Jedimaster_TTBaby's Avatar
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    Awesome Scene, one of the best last night!!!

    Loved seeing The Green Arrow and Clark back together fighting the good fight. The scene was visually beautiful and I can't wait to see Ollie and Clark cleaning up Metropolis.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadToad View Post
    Yeah, its totally awesome!
    I'm with you on this one. As epic as this shot looked, it rang false for me. I had thought that Oliver had burned his Green Arrow costume and that it was going to take some time for him to build up to putting it back on after he got off his wallowing and suicidal path. I wasn't ready for this moment of solidarity on the roof, because the writers didn't do the heavy lifting necessary to make me feel as if Oliver had earned that place up there. So for me it kind of felt like all flash and very little substance. I really wish I could have liked it, but I can't bring myself to endorse it. It felt false to me.

    So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you.
    See, I thought there was a great opportunity in this episode to address this somehow. In fact, this episode had a lot of missed opportunities and hit a lot of false notes for me. I had hoped for so much more. The opportunity I'm referring to is when Oliver is being confronted by the fake cops. It would have been nice if in that moment Oliver would have confessed to killing Lex Luthor or started to just before Clark showed up. That way we could have at least known it was Oliver's intent to own up to his crimes and Clark could have overheard him.

    I was okay with Clark forgiving Oliver (which wouldn't be him excusing his actions), and I was okay with them reconciling, but not like this. I didn't like the message in this episode and quite honestly I think Genevieve Sparling's track record with writing these kinds of moral heavy episodes is terrible. The person who wrote Beast was the wrong choice for this episode. To me, I almost felt after watching Roulette that it was a combination of Power and Beast--two of the worst episodes of last season. It needed to do so much more than it did, and I am very disappointed.

    You have to love SV and their screwed up morality. But then again, since Ollie is cute and all, I guess its OK for him to plot premeditate murder and all. And look, Clark is totally validating him. Thats totally awesome character development for Clark.
    Word. I actually had a huge problem with Chloe in this episode as well. Her approach with Oliver wasn't what he needed. I think Clark and Lois would have done a much better job at getting Oliver on the right path. Chloe being in the same ends justify the means camp seems to just be egging Oliver on and vice versa. My only hope at this point is that there will be some comeuppance for both of them in future episodes, but I'm a lot less optimistic than I was before.
    Last edited by ginevrakent; 10-24-2009 at 09:34 PM.

  9. #69
    Forum Regular BrandonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowBird View Post
    I was wondering why was Oliver taking Clark's place looking over the city. Ollie can find his own place. Then he cut down Clark's suit. Not the best scene for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Estro-gen X View Post
    I don't think so. All he said was that Clark was a decent stand in.
    I think you guys really missed the point of what he was saying. He said that Clark did a hell of a job keeping the world safe by himself. That's Oliver finally acknowledging that Clark knows what he's doing and that he's a superhero. He's not saying "nice job covering for me, but I'm back now so you can head on home to Smallville."

    Then he said "I'm here to help you now." He didn't say "I'm here to take over my role as de facto leader again," nor did he say "Now you'll be able to help me out again." He said HE was there to help CLARK, not the other way around. He's finally acknowledging that Clark is the top dog. This was a great scene for the Justice League mythos, because it's beginning to transition Clark into the leadership role of the Justice League instead of Oliver.

    Quote Originally Posted by SnowBird View Post
    I wish Oliver had said it in a different way. It just seemed like he was ragging on Clark's suit and rubbing it in that he was rich with a taylor. Kinda rude in my opinion.
    He very clearly smirked at the end, and Clark smiled too. Oliver meant it as fun sarcasm and Clark knew it, so he took it that way. There was no offense or rubbing anything in.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadToad View Post
    So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you.
    You don't need some big dramatic speech where he says "I killed Lex Luthor," and since Oliver is Green Arrow they can't really have him go to jail. Oliver tried to kill himself. Sure you can say that it's the easy way out, but in this context that's pretty much owning up to what he did.

    Sometimes, when we've done something horrible, we give ourselves due punishment.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadToad View Post
    Yeah, its totally awesome!

    So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you.

    You have to love SV and their screwed up morality. But then again, since Ollie is cute and all, I guess its OK for him to plot premeditate murder and all. And look, Clark is totally validating him. Thats totally awesome character development for Clark.Or, you know, not really.

    IMO



    Yeah, Oliver could totally have caught that train falling off the tracks.

    Who needs Clark? I think thats a sentiment pretty much shared by the SV writing staff as well.
    I hate the fact that this is all true but it is. Can you imagine the CR Superman from the movies being ok with 1/2 of the stuff that has gone down on this show? Not me.
    Hell,I can't help but think if poor Lois knew about 1/3 of this crap she would have left town on thier asses a long time ago.

  11. #71
    SV's Superman/Clark SnowBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadToad View Post
    Yeah, its totally awesome!

    So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you.

    You have to love SV and their screwed up morality. But then again, since Ollie is cute and all, I guess its OK for him to plot premeditate murder and all. And look, Clark is totally validating him. Thats totally awesome character development for Clark.

    Or, you know, not really.

    IMO



    Yeah, Oliver could totally have caught that train falling off the tracks.

    Who needs Clark? I think thats a sentiment pretty much shared by the SV writing staff as well.
    Good to see you.....Ollie is getting off way to easy. I'll believe he is a changed man when I see him in hero mode. He has a long way to go to make up what he did to Clark.

  12. #72
    Forum Whiz LoD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadToad View Post
    Yeah, its totally awesome!

    So, basically, our Clark Kent, future Superman, is fine with murder as long as you feel really bad about it. You don't actually have to pay for the crimes, or anything mundane like that. You don't even really need to be redeemed, since you don't have to own up all that you've done. You just need to wallow in self-pity for a while, and treat Clark like crap, and he will totally embrace you.

    You have to love SV and their screwed up morality. But then again, since Ollie is cute and all, I guess its OK for him to plot premeditate murder and all. And look, Clark is totally validating him. Thats totally awesome character development for Clark.

    Or, you know, not really.

    IMO
    I think we're all going to need one of those old-fashioned SV knockouts to just forget this episode, and its questionable depiction of Clark.

    It can't be said enough: Oliver needs to face justice and atone for his crime. Suicide was a coward's way of dodging responsibility, in this case, as was framing Toyman for the murder. I'm glad Oliver feels better about himself, but that hardly addresses what he did, now does it? Oh well. At least, it's done now, and maybe with [SPOILER]his new sidekick and arch enemy coming to town[/SPOILER] he'll mosey on back to Star City.

    I'm not convinced he (or Chloe) learned much from their experience last year. But that's OK. That's why I cheer for Clark.

    Quote Originally Posted by ginevrakent View Post
    I was okay with Clark forgiving Oliver (which wouldn't be him excusing his actions), and I was okay with them reconciling, but not like this. I didn't like the message in this episode and quite honestly I think Genevieve Sparling's track record with writing these kinds of moral heavy episodes is terrible. The person who wrote Beast was the wrong choice for this episode. To me, I almost felt after watching Roulette that it was a combination of Power and Beast--two of the worst episodes of last season. It needed to do so much more than it did, and I am very disappointed.
    Bingo. I'm just glad that it seems like she's a "one episode per season" writer, so maybe we're in the clear for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonR View Post
    Sometimes, when we've done something horrible, we give ourselves due punishment.
    Yes, but not for murder. And anyway Oliver still has his wealth and the respect of others. He even still has his fall-guy going to trial for the crime he committed. And, now, thanks to Chloe, he doesn't even feel bad about it. He has in no way attempted to atone for his crime. All he's done is hide from the responsibility. Toyman had it right.

  13. #73
    touring Clark's galaxy Tebow15's Avatar
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    I didn't want this to become a war thread. Sighs....

  14. #74
    Whedon Worshipper Hopefulsuicide's Avatar
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    Well it'd be very difficult for Clark to lecture Ollie about not killing the bad guy, after just two episodes apologising for not having killed Doomsday in the first place because his mercy lead to Jimmy's death...

  15. #75
    Forum Whiz WickedSusi's Avatar
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    That was an awesomwe Scene. It was so good to see Oliver back in the Green Arrow suit. Loved the conversation they had on the roof together.

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